well, why i dont have thought that?it seems quite true also, many ppl switch to 939 when AMD reign supreme that time. and when dual core is becoming a norm, AMD starting to stop 939. and those with single core 939 dont have much option to upgrade, dual core 939 like a needle in a haystack. still remember i helping my fren bought 3800X2 in august last year,that time already hard to find one. more over, the price is high, the AM2 version is 10% cheaper. ppl who wanna upgrade,hv to get a new AM2 system,bt who will do tat since C2D is much better .

read more here.

yeah..i agree. If i would to change my mobo and RAM i would opt for C2D instead rather than AM2. But if X2 939s are widely available then i might just hold back my major upgrade and change my CPU only.

The problem now is X2 s939 damn hard 2 reach. Only can get 2nd hand 1 more easier compare getting brand new dude
AMD is in disadvantage situation right now

if for upgrade normaly now ppl will just choose C2D, compare the performance and price tag between AMD AM2 and Intel C2D, C2D will much more better. even now C2D use less power then AM2.

... so until now still using S939 processor. personaly i feel better spend on other like bigger LCD and PSU those price will not like processor and mainboard drop like hell even in few months time.

From the link:

Best line ever. LOL.

i think so, too many resources ($)

disappointed with AMD stupid move .

maybe they now put all time on the ATI R600 GPU.. i think soon AMD will bring something out.

i am gonna get back to intel thanks to amd for killing my precious 939.

me too the same..... may be DDR is the main problem...........

anyway an possiblity any motherboard producer will revive s939 motherboard............. my was sent to warranty already, if it spoils again.........that's it no more to play with..........

Yup
It's better 2 invest on higher wattage PSU then u buy all those dual-core or quad-core whatever
As we all know d price 4 PSU stand steady without drop much like those procs.
Chasing tech beats is never ending as now is quad-core then later will be multi-core

Huhu, hold on to you socket 939 then. Years after this, we can be the proud owner of AMD's most unloved and unutilised creation

hehe. i never touched S939. from S754 straight go AM2, that also because i don't believe in spending more than RM 300 on a processor.

ha ha, i think so, my both s939 all 2nd hand 1, zzz if buy brand new processor damn rugi lor! so for processor i always look for 2nd even if have 3rd hand.

jcliew: yap thats what i'm thinking long time, so next step is Silverstone OP1000 or OP1200 then 30" LCD. ... upgrade the processor still no in my list.

But those high-end PSU costs even higher than mainstrem procs thought...
Furthermore I still dun nid such powerful PSU rite now.
Wif my current setup a decent 600-700W true power PSU will do well

lucky for me cause first i want to try amd before c2c is out and i havw wait the amd 939 procesoor to drop then pentium c2c is out so i use the c2c

for those who already have amd x2 with s939, it's all working fine. No need to upgrade in short period of time. I must say I was lucky to have upgraded in time before stocks out of market. So far, I am pretty satisfied with it.

Congratulation for ur successful upgrading ur X2 s939
It's good dat u appreciate what u got here
So far X2 s939 still can last for couple years now. As u know actually AM2 is nothing different from s939 except it support DDR2 memory.

Using X2 in S939 should be fine,but in case later in future the spare part like mobo itself become fewer and fewer then will be very hard to get replacement already,that's the only problem.Right now also not really good to get those AM2 products are reviews showed that there was no major difference with the old socket.

I'm still at socket 754, was a victim of 939. Got a crappy motherboard that time caused me to sell the mobo after RMA and the proc while the socket was being discontinued. Now I'll try to buy smart this time. C2D in target.

This post has been edited by seveneleven: Mar 24 2007, 12:44 AM

I have a different idea.
If i want to change to new platform, i will change AM2

As all we know, C2D is much better then AM2, but C2D is much much expensvie than AM2

one Athlon 64 AM2 3800+ x2 is only RM360 however one C2D 6300 alrd cost us about RM680. Although C2D 6300 is better then 3800+x2 , but the proformance is not much different for normal user or gamer.

In addition, AMD will come out the AM2+ soon which also can supported by AM2 Motherboard.

If i change my platfrom to AM2 now, then i still can change to AM2+ later if the proc come out.

Talking about price of course there is always AMD wins hand down.I also agree with this,even the X2 eprformance is not as C2D.This depends on the users which system they want to choose.Neither AMD nor Intel will sell their new procs below RM200 escpecially those mainstream products.

Yaya.
agree with you.

So, i think C2D can attract a lot of high end user now, however AMDX2 will also attract a lot of mid end and lower end user.

Frankily speaking , i am just a low - mid end user.
I will prefer Am2 3800x2 which can save me more than RM300 which can buy more 1G DDR2 ram or a better graphic card.

This post has been edited by darnell: Mar 24 2007, 01:03 AM

why bother getting 3800X2? 3600X2 65nm a.k.a Brisbane is much cheaper and OC better. i saw forumner selling this bulk Brisbane for around RM250. and got shops selling it at RM270, but i think must bundle with mobo.

oh.. I just make a example when i compare AM2 and C2D.

yaya. i also saw this 3600x 2 in Lowyat.net.
The price is so attracitve.
Plan to get one but have to save more money 1st.

if i plan to change my platform, i have to change my proc, mobo and ram.
So, i think i have to plan it nicely

---

Added on March 24, 2007, 2:18 amIn addition, i think AMD suddenly stop 939 also have their own planning.
939 is using DDR RAM however all factory are concentrating in producing the DDR2 ram recently.

Once AM2 have launch, all motherboard company concentrate in producing AM2 motherboard because it is a new product of AMD that use DDR2.
All DDR2 will be much cheaper then DDR ram as all factory stop producing DDR ram. Therefore, new buyer sure will prefer AM2 If compare with 939.

Furthermore, Intel alrd standardize all their socket to 775 after stop producing 478 soc proc.

If AMD didnt stop producing 939 soc proc, then AMD will have three type of soc in their proc.

754 and 939 is old product, all motherboard company sure will not concentrate in producing it's motherboard.
Therefore, for proc that insufficient of ram and motherboard, AMD force to stop it.

This is my own stupid opinion, pls dont shoot me if u dont agree , but i really hope can learn something from u all .

This post has been edited by darnell: Mar 24 2007, 02:19 AM

If I, I will go 4 AM2 rather than C2D even C2D performs much more better. AM2 X2 3800+ cheaper roughly RM300 than E6300. With this amount I can buy a better mobo, a better graphic card or a true power PSU which giv me more headroom to OC d X2!
Furthermore AMD release their Brisbane 65nm procs liao n I'm think it will more OC-able than 90nm 1.

ya, i saw a trader selling 3600x2 Brisbane 65nm is lowyat b4
but cannot found it now d.
anyone see it b4 ? can show me ? Thanks.

The 939 socket is killed by DDR2, AMD had no choice but follow the trend otherwise it can be seen lag behind since intel already move to DDR2 and all memory manufacturer already start focusing on DDR2 and abandon DDR1.

but if AMD can produce S939 with DDR2 then i think there is another situation for AMD compare right now.

From what i know 754 and 939 have some different.
939 support dual channel , memory controller accesses memory at 128-bit rate and
754 support single channel , memory controller accesses memory at 64-bit rate

I guess may be some technical problem make AMD fail to produce S939 with DDR2, but it is just my guess , dont shoot me if i am wrong.

This post has been edited by darnell: Mar 24 2007, 01:36 PM

hai..

can ayone please tell me is
AMD Turion 64 X2 Dual-Core TL-50
a good processor?

Thanksss

What's the point in that? You'd still need a new mainboard for DDR2, and you'd still need a new chip for DDR2 support. So it's no different from the current situation. Except some dumbasses may buy the wrong chip/mainboard/memory combo.

Guess the 939 fanboys just can't accept that DDR technology is already passing its prime time.

DDR2 has lower voltage requirement... and low power is one of the key of future technology.

Does this means that it isnt really worthit to get a 939 system rite now considering the fact that it might be a 2nd handed one?

is dep on price...soc am2 sint really fast if compare to soc939...

in term of performance socket 939 still beat soc am2 if i not mistaken...

soc 939 still got high end proc..but of cos is expensive and not that worth if compare to c2d

I think they got to move fast because Intel is already bragging about having DDR2, hence those that are not so computer-literate tend to prefer Intel because of a 'faster' memory.

For example, last time, those brochurs always highlight DDR2 and put a comment saying " Less power, higher performance "

Buying sc939 now? Budget to use it for how long? Even the only DDR left is 400. Rarely to find the 333 or 266. Soon DDR will extinct

About AM2+ or AM3, sure AM2+ processors may fit into AM2 mobo or vice versa but does the current mobo supports it? Maybe later AM2 mobo will

Source
Guess they intend to make it like Intel, using the same socket all the way, or at least they are compatible. Buy a new processor, same old mobo

This post has been edited by afosz: Mar 24 2007, 10:14 PM

zzzz... haven't try the DDR2 but DDR3 are on the way out soon.. nowday tehnology really fast lor.

What he mean here is for those who oledi on s939 platform, all they nid 2 do is juz buy a new board 4 s939 which supporting DDR2 n sum DDR2 RAMS. The difference is upgrade d s939 by juz buy a new board n RAM modules compare 2 AM2 which required end users buy NEW AM2 proc, NEW AM2 board n NEW DDR2 RAM modules
Like this can attract those who oledi on s939 2 upgrade rather than buy a whole new system mah! Can save $$$ on procs loh.

Hehe..Im stilll a proud Venice soc939 user ..bought it 2nd hand from forumers here.

last month i set up a new rig..bought am2 mobo, ddrII and facing a surplus in budget...and it end with buying AMD 3000+ AM2 proc for RM215 (new retail) ...later if got extra money, will upgrade to x2 3800+

As any other socket939 user, i cant avoid myself to try ddrII RAM...thats why im turned into AM2 board. As a student, with the budget, i cant catch the new technology...

save what money?

sorry but please do your homework

sAM2 has 940-pin
s939 has 939-pin

all K8 architecture has built-in memory controller, so if you want to use DDR2, you need to have AM2, no excuse. s939 has strictly DDR-only memory controller.

Hurm.. me a proud owner of winchester.. i got a q here(maybe stupid q).. is it a must to use ddr2 800mhz ram? what's d diff between using ddr2 667 and the 800? let say, i'm using x2 proc and using ddr2 800.. is there any increase in proc speed?

i hav no idea on dual core architecture..

How bout C2D system?does it kill fast oso?wanna know oso here:)

Yup, that's technology nowadays. Very cruel. They'll force you to spend $$ on new stuff if you want something better. I think the last DDR is 1GB, no further than that. Some more DDR3 is coming, surely they put that away and then DDR2 is dying.

But I guess AMD shouldn't release 939 at the 1st place. They should just stick with 754 that support PCIE. 754 also support PCIE right? But mostly 754 is DDR/AGP, 939 DDR/PCIE and AM2 is DDR2/PCIE. What to do, their choice. Want to use DDR2, must upgrade to AM2 laa if that's the case, some might say that it is better to go for C2D. Then new stuff from AMD, maybe better one, then shift again

^lol what do you mean force user to spend? Unless you really need to, there's no need to upgrade everytime new tech. come out. If there's a need, just upgrade the ram capacity or new GC and the 939 system is pretty much good to go for most applications.

Exactly. I have a s939 system that I got around a year ago and so far its going very strong. Nothing yet has made me scream my head off like the slowness of my old P4 1.5ghz system!!! Moreover my 3800+ OC's like a charm (2.6-2.7Ghz). I doubt I'll be getting a new system for another 2 to 3 years.

whatever it is..money is still the most important thing

Ok..need a comparison here..

Assuming you are tight on budget in building a new system, would it be a good choice in spending a few hundreds more in getting a NEW AM2 system or maybe save those hundreds and get a 2nd Hand 939 system?

In comparison, is there really such a significant edge of DDR2 in AM2 towards d DDR in 939?

2nd hand 939 would be a wise choice for normal use, for student example. It does save a lot. DDR2 is just a newer tech, slightly faster than DDR but why wanna change so much if changing the whole system doesn't seem to be changing at all in performance.

Current 939 user, just stick to the specs. Maybe change them when there's quad core AMD or something. New user wanna get a PC, should get AM2. At least it is new

@akchester
Using Opteron eh? I'm thinking of upgrading to Opteron 1210 for my AM2, is it worth it for the price of RM600+, just like C2D price except I don't have to change my mobo as well

Oh my godness
U seem misunderstand what i wanna express here. What is express here is juz assumption that IF AMD produce platform which utilize s939 n support DDR2 memory then can save $$$ on s939 procs.
lol...I also know there is no such thing since DDR2 in real world only supported in AM2 platform for AMD lah...
P/S: Plz go through d thread posted previously by whom I replied.

This post has been edited by jcliew: Mar 25 2007, 06:21 PM

just because S939 AGP DDR1 is really hectic for me after my MSI neo2 platinum died....so shift to C2D

right now I am stuck with 939 3000 venice. also running window vista, and its just enuff only, if open too much application---which i luv to do like in winxp,it will lag.

i bought my pc a little over a year ago, Feb 2006, at that time i didnt wan wait for AM2 cos ppl tell me once AM2 debut, its S939 price will come down and i thought i will be able to upgrade to a S939 4800X2. but who will have thought AMD discontinued it. right now, i got money wanna upgrade also cant.

i dun wan to choose amd anymore, if both amd and intel are slightly on par, i will choose intel liao.

DDR and DDR2 have different voltage requirement... so you still need different motherboards.

even if you save the old s939, you still wont be able to use it with DDR2... that just defeats the purpose of saving your old s939 or changing to DDR2 platform. things just don't work that way.

Yeah..... I agree soulfly statement, just like this......

s939 = DDR (2.5v)
AM2 = DDR2 (1.8v)



This post has been edited by Daywalker: Mar 25 2007, 10:37 PM

The reason i am asking is because i still have some parts for the socket 939 which i hope to sell to a friend.But considering the fact that the AM2 price is kinda cheap, i am still considering whether to keep those parts or really sell to him at a cheaper price...

Well, to be honest with you, i had never tried the C2D before so, no comparison there with the Intel. But, considering S939 Opteron and the X2 series, i just feel there are next to no difference at all during usage.I mean, comparing the X2 3800 with the Opteron 165, there might just be a slight advantage the Opteron have towards the X2.In fact, many reviews had stated that the X2 of s939 might even be better than the Opteron..

So, i guess its really up to you whether you utilize the system or not.X2 AM2 is already at a rock bottom price which does seem to be a very very good deal.About Opteron AM2, i still haven use or see the review of any yet so i would wana give a comment there.But i guess, with the price of 600+, there are plenty of choices as in the AM2 X2 series.Opty would be good as well as long as you utilize the features...

I see. In that case, I'll opt to X2, save more money I'm not into much heavier stuff like .. well I don't know

I think you might wanna let go to your friend, IF the price he offered satisfies you. If not, keep it. Having several rigs also not a problem like some have 3, some 8

There won't be such "IF".

It's not about platform but it's about the proc architecture.

Unlike Intel proc, AMD have memory controller built-in on their proc.

S939 proc would only work with DDR1 because it only has DDR1 memory controller on it.

It's not that AMD don't want to produce s939 platform with DDR2 support but that has no purpose whatsoever, it's like making a chair that people cannot sit on it.

Well, thats why i would say opting for X2 might be a wiser choice unless you really need the extra L2 cache..lol..

whoa.. no one answer my q? so no different for am2 if using either ddrII533 or ddrII800.. ok.. i'm waiting for the quad core to comeout first then only buy a new rig.. for now.. it's still enough juice for my daily usage.. gaming still ok.. only my hdd space.. too small.. need bigger hdd capacity.. anyone want to donate.. me poor student.. hehe..

Maybe we should make an "appeal" to AMD to revive the 939 line of CPUs.

You know, like last time, when there was an appeal for a better AGP card besides the ATI X850PE. The industry finally came to their senses and produced better AGP cards!!

I'm stuck with a 3500+ but am willing to upgrade to 6000+ (or higher!) if it is available! (within an acceptable price, of course)

To AMD, read this!!!!

:S i see bunch of ancient monkeys asking for S939 ressurection.

Hey,it's DDR2. And a an international companies don't make stupid move , they do make stupid products sometimes.

Well, I'm sure you have a lot of money to throw around. I guess most of us here just can't throw our rig away just to buy a new computer.

I'm sure a lot of LNY members still have good high-end 939 computer. IMHO, who wouldn't want to upgrade if AMD produce a socket-939 quad core or a socket-939 X2 6000+?

DDR2 is good and definitely faster but considering the amount of money you need to spend on a new high-performance computer just to get DDR2, an upgrade for us poor LYN people would be more feasible. Besides, the amount of speed gained using DDR2 as compared to DDR does not justify spending that much money. For instance, splurging money of DDR2-1066 to gain that extra <3%(?) @ <5%(?) speed as compared to a DDR2-800 is not worth the money! So what if you could play Battlefield at 100 fps while we play it at 90 fps.

Ask around and see how many LYN "monkeys" would like to see AMD produce a faster 939 or a quad core 939........ You'd be surprise..... Nowadays, we still go for speed but most if not all would prefer multi-core.....

More cores need more bandwidth to keep them all fed. That's where ddr2 comes in. It also uses a lower voltage and lower power, so they can save some power on the memory controller side of things. Plus they probably needed some changes to the electrical specifications for the newer chips for new power management modes etc, so they rolled it all into one package. You can't keep using the same socket forever, and they already did a good job with 939.

C'mon dude, this is a transition of technology. We can't stick to DDR forever. AM2 is a good move to prepare end user to transition from DDR to DDR2 and the same platform can be used with a quad core. There is not much gain from DDR to DDR2 for K8 because of its internal architecture. It was designed based on the BW available from DDR400 only. Like ikanayam pointed out earlier, multicores need high memory BW, DDR can never achieve that.

If the industry leaders dont push technology and forced the transition, we will not be achieving this level today, we probably are still using something as fast as Pentium only.

Besides, ppl in LYN community doesnt judge the demand world-wide. Intel and AMD do market research and get feedbacks from many customers. They need to satisfy the majority, not the minority. If we don't have money to upgrade or overhaul the system, just wait longer, stick with the older system and be more patient with the speed.

I'm not saying that we are backward people who doesn't want change. New technology is definitely good for everybody. What I'm saying (which is the main topic), is that AMD stopped producing 939 CPUs too early!

I would like to refer to a review by Anandtech (Dated April 17, First look: AM2 DDR2 vs 939 DDR performance) http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2741&p=3

In that review, they used X2 vs AM2 vs FX60 with DDR400 vs DDR2 at different speeds. It was noted that indeed memory bandwidth does increase with DDR2. However, they also concluded that increased bandwidth does not translate to similar increase in gaming performance! Their last conclusion was "for now the move to AM2 and DDR2 memory looks like it will yield far too little in performance improvements to keep AMD competitive in the upcoming desktop marketplace"

Please also refer to a review by x-bitlabs on similar issues (dated 22/5/2006).

http://xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/amd-socket-am2.html

Their conclusions : "Summing up everything we have said about the new AMD Socket AM2 platform we have to admit that the introduction of DDR2 SDRAM support is a small evolutionary step forward. Our tests showed that the transition to DDR2 SDRAM doesn't bring in any significant performance gain. Moreover, you have to make sure that your system uses the fastest DDR2 SDRAM with 800MHz frequency and minimal timings if you want to see any performance improvement at all. The widely spread DDR2-667 SDRAM may sometimes provide absolutely no performance gain at all compared with the Socket 939 platforms supporting DDR400 SDRAM with low timings settings."

It is the same with AGP. Previously thought that AGP would die a fast death. But surprise, surpise, why is ATI and NVIDIA coming out with new AGP products such as 7800 GS and ATI 1950pro? In addition, well-known websites review of ATI 1950pro (AGP) can actually keep up with PCI-Express!!! And why is so many people still upgrading their AGPs!??!!

Please don't misunderstand my comments. I would gladly buy the most newest technology there is any day. (Probably a C2D/C4D system, if I have the money). What I'm saying is that AMD should have not left us "high and dry" with our "old" system with no path for upgrades i.e. the 939 line of CPUs was discontinued too early. After all, we did spent a lot of money on our so-call high-end system, now and then upgrading with the latest technology of that time.

Of course, when new software/games comes out that fully support multi-core, then that would be a different story. By then, I would have bought a new computer anyway! Probably a 8-core CPU!

Lastly, given the option of upgrading my rig to a X2 6000+ (939) vs buying a new high-end C2D, my limited budget (as with a lot of LYN members) who probably see us choose the upgrade path.

Addition : On ya, just a side note. Vista is the way forward. Anybody benefiting from it now?

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 16 2007, 06:00 PM

why don't u buy 3800+ (s939) and oc it to on par of X2 6000+?
i no need to buy FX to make it faster...

just buy the 3800+, and prepare ur money for the next 2 years.. for DDR3 platform...

if no money... don't buy...

you got your point there. IMHO, AMD stops it so quickly to have a faster transition from DDR to DDR2. This kept their manufacturing cost lower and increases the production volume because AMD doesn't need to assemble the CPUs into different packages. (as you know, AMD is suffering from high demand months ago). Besides this, not all are as educated as folks in LYN. Many people think DDR2 > DDR, and disregard Athlon64 because they uses DDR only. So the marketing people has no choice but to push DDR2 quickly. Thirdly, DDR2 consumes less power and has higher potential. This make their platform power consumption even lower and AMD can continue to advertise on their "low power platform".

Bro, X2 6000+ is at 3.0 Ghz! X2 3800+ would never reach that level! Unless you use something like phase cooling.......

Overclocking 101 (on air):

X2 3800+ : Max OC 2.6 Ghz
X2 6000+ : Max OC 3.4 Ghz
X2 10000+ : Max OC 153825356 Ghz!

This is what happened when greed is over your conscious. At that time you want it all HT1000, Dual-channel, you have to go 939. If your are an enthusiasts but you don't have enough paper, you end up regretting yourself. The least you can do is to refer the road map. It'll give you the idea and estimation of the product life cycle, so you can planned your upgrade. Yeah, AMD kinda suck introducing crippled socket each time. But we cannot do anything.

Don't you guys missed those socket A days?

Well, please state your reason why do u think AM2 is a crippled socket? I don't really understand it.

You should know that AM2 doesn't have HT 3.0. And it cannot be use for future AMD X4 chips(It might be, but no HT3.0 support). That you'll need a completely different socket AM2+.

Thinking back about the old days, it is true what you said. We went for AMD64 because of the:
1) HT1000 (which up to now, has never been over-saturated with data!)
2) Dual-channel (has always been using dual-channel ram, 1T)
3) 64-bit (the future that never arrived. Not including vista 64 which is useless for us!)
4) The bright future of 939 (at that time, there was still a roadmap for 939!)
5) The performance - beat pentium 4 hands down (if I remember correctly, no offense)

The socket itself isn't crippled, but the platform technology. I dont think HT3.0 is very important for desktop, its real target is multiprocessor system since HTT is used mainly for inter-CPU coherency communcation. Since we have only 1 CPU on desktop, HT1.x is more than enough to for us unless you lke the power management feature on HT3. AMD already confirmed AM2 platforms are compatible with its new quadcore. I am not sure about AM2+, the socket should be the same as AM2 but the chipset and bus are different.

About your complain on fast moving sockets, both Intel and AMD has no choice because of the rat race. A few years back, a new architecture is released every 5 years (K7), 3 years (K8) but now the life cycle is cut to 2 years only (K8L onwards). That is why your socket A can last you very very long, but not with the S939 or S754. Intel is able to remain LGA775 from P4 Prescott up till now because of the same FSB protocol and memory module used. Since the interconnection busses and RAM is a severe bottleneck for multicore CPU, the best way is to constantly change to higher speed busses and memory module so that the multi-core monster can get enough data for processing.

Once upon a time my parents were complaining why Intel was introducing the CPU so quickly from Pentium onwards, because the lifecycle of 386 and 486 were really really slow. What i would say is - technology is moving faster and faster, we can't compare it to oldern days.

Why would Intel and AMD doing this? All because of us, the consumers - we demand high performance processing power and they gave us as quickly as possible. New tech always comes with great price, u cant avoid it.

---

Added on April 16, 2007, 9:15 pmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_AM2+

You are confusing yourself. AM2 and AM2+ is exactly the same socket. For example, it is just like a socket A running on different chipset, one VIA KT600 and one VIA KT333. Can you say socket A is crippled because the newer socket A can go up to 400MHz FSB with a lot more features, while the older one only 333MHz and probably no SATA support at all?

This is exactly the same scenario for AM2 and AM2+.

This post has been edited by c38y50y70: Apr 16 2007, 09:15 PM

I am aware of that. Transition to AM2 and AM2+ is aight. Both AM2 and AM2+ CPU can be use on both platform interchangeable. Same as socket A era, same socket different chipset with different bus speed and features. No big deal with that. As long as you have the choice of CPU upgrade which doesn't require you entirely to change motherboard and memory. The sad thing about 939 is, DDR II kills it. It can't be helped. Just that I think AM2 to AM2+ is not as bad as 939 to AM2. You just loose the HT3.0. AM2+ might be have the same fate with 939 after the socket AM3 come into the scene with DDR III support. But still not as bad as 939 because newer AM3 cpu is backward compatible with AM2+.

The point is, you need to know the right time to purchase a system which have longer life span and upgrade choices. 754 to 939 dudes just had to suffer more. If you're true enthusiasts, you don't have to worry about this. Just go crazy.

there's nothing wrong for moving to AM2, it's simply a step to adapt a new platform that is DDR2.

DDR2 is cheaper than DDR and consumes less power. Energy efficient is what is IN today.

enthusiasts only made up less than 25% off the whole computer market, bigger profit comes from OEM as well as the mainstream market.

---

Added on April 16, 2007, 10:02 pmyou forgot about the internal memory controller which enables the memory access directly by cpu without getting thru fsb (to the northbridge).

This post has been edited by soulfly: Apr 16 2007, 10:02 PM

ha.. got your points now
Yes, it is a true pain, but as i mentioned in previous post, this might be AMD's move to reduce production cost for multiple sockets. Nowadays "converge" is the word which helps to increase the efficiency and make things simpler, so a move to AM2 to unified S754 & 939 is a must i'd say.

Actually AMD can make the DDR2 version using existing 939 socket because 30 over pins on the older K8 are reserved. I am not sure why, but i guess maybe AMD is afraid of careless users who drop the old DDR K8 into a new DDR2 platform... During socket A, dropping a barton into an SDRAM platform doesn't harm because the mem controller is in the NB, but now the mem controller is in the CPU. Dunno the consequent though, but it *might* burn, hahahah. I guess the upcoming AM3 version of Barcelona will have some detection mechanism to prevent this scenario happens, when dropping the AM3 K8L into AM2+ platform.

This post has been edited by c38y50y70: Apr 16 2007, 10:06 PM

Ya, how can I forget! Sorry. Internal memory controller meaning one less northbridge to cool down!

Those unused pins are usually there for mechanical purpose (strength/warp/crack) and have no signal or just grounding.

Typically they'll just change the pin-out i.e. pin A2 used to be VCC is now VSS etc. Worse thing that could happen is the machine not booting up. It has nothing to do with IMC or NB.

One major difference btw AMD and Intel is AMD goes for more pins than necessary to support a few generations while Intel goes for the bare minimum for cost reduction at the expense of more frequent socket change. But I believe given the cost of substrate and assembly going up AMD will eventually have to go for the minimum pin-count approach.

Did they make a 1950xtx or a 7900gtx on agp (high end)? No. There will be no dx10 high end for AGP either. And IIRC AMD is already capacity limited even for AM2 right now, so why would they want to divert some resources to an outdated version?



It would still be pointless to use the same socket for ddr2. You still have to change the RAM socket (change your mainboard), change your CPU (to get DDR2 support), change your memory to DDR2. It would be just like what intel has been doing with 775. Yay, same socket, but you still have to change everything. Also does "reserved" necessarily mean "unused"? They could be there for some kind of testing.



775 has lasted a long time. But intel have been complete pricks about their chipsets. Practically every new chip needs a new chipset, or vrm, or just something trivial like that. I think AMD did a pretty good job with 939. It's just time to change.

You got the point there. I've read somewhere (cant recall) that AMD did mention about the reserved/unused pins on their K8 S939. They said it is necessary to add an extra pin for some future designs purpose (i guess it is for Barcelona support). Well, maybe I was wrong.

Yes exactly. Socket A has so many version of chipsets and VRM. The latest AthlonXP is not guaranteed to run on much older socket A which uses SDRAM platform.

Some of the reasons:
1. Can sell more chips (most obvious) -> new CPU + new NB + new SB
There's a lot of resistance in moving from a 3-chip solution to 2-chip as you make a lot less.

2. Lowers cost
Designing just to meet current needs to lower cost.

3. Screw-ups in design/planning
Short-sightedness in planning, poor execution etc...

The main reason for S939 owners to complain was the switch from this to the AM2 was too quick.Not many people could afford a sudden change. I had just barely use my S939 stuff and they change it to AM2.

I know the change is inevitable considering the fact that Intel launched their CD and DDR2. By that time, people would think "lets buy Intel since they have DDR2 which should be faster" and AMD would be left behind..

Well, even its almost obsolete already, my S939 still serves me fine until the day i will need a replacement.. This is my own opinion...

Pretty sure point 2 doesn't lower cost overall. You have to get your ASIC guys to design a new chipset (or more likely modify the older one), make new masks, tape out a new chipset, do more testing to make sure nothing is broken etc, etc. That is definitely cannot be cheaper than just making one that lasts you a while, and really from the way intel has been doing it, this should be trivial (since they just add incremental features). Seems like it's either point 1 or 3, or maybe even a bit of both.

Point #2 is more applicable to substrate design than silicon design.

Not sure what you're saying here, care to elaborate?

TS: Aiyo, what is there to complain. When you bought 939, i bet you're clapping ur hands becoz u saved $$$ from buying DDR2 and can re-use ur existing DDR RAM. Now obsolete already wanna complain??

I've no complaints against AMD...i jumped straight from VGA/AGP/DDR Socket A platform to PCIE/DDR2 AM2 platform.

It's all about timing and buying decision. You can't complain your 2 year old car is outdated when a new model is released tomorrow because you've already benefitted from driving a nice new car for 2 years!!!

This post has been edited by Matrix: Apr 17 2007, 09:54 AM

Silicon technology has evolved at a lightning pace (180, 130, 90, 65, 45 in ~ 5 years). With increase transistor shrinkage + larger wafer sizes the cost of manufacturing silicon has gone down if you don't factor in the large initial investment in fabs and equipment.

But IC packaging substrate technology hasn't kept up and it's becoming a larger cost constributor vs silicon. So the substrate is designed just to meet current needs to reduce costs. Intel could have created a socket with 1000+ pins instead of 775 and support it over multiple processor generations but it doesn't make sense from a cost standpoint.

A car is a terrible analogy. If the car industry evolved as fast as the tech industry we all be driving last year's Ferrari right now for the low low price of a Kancil.

No, you got me all wrong. I was just saying that they could have made their chipsets/mainboards work with all (or at least most) of the 775 chips instead of requiring a new chipset for every new 775 processor released, since the changes in the chipsets appear to be rather trivial. 775 has lasted a long time, but it's not exactly useful to the end user because there are so many limitations in terms of what chipsets work with what. They should take a page out of AMD's book regarding chipset/CPU compatibility.

Why are people harping on socket 939? Was it so good that AM2 was a mistake? In anycase AM3 is slated to be released 2008, so I'd say for 939 users, get a new rig next year, keep the 939 as a backup system or file server or give it to family, but why whine about no option to upgrade? I would also guessed that we are all used to buying un-upgradable tech by now (just look around your desk or home) or am i completely missing the point here? Companies make mistakes sure, but AMD sure isn't dying because of the short lifespan of Socket 939.

As a matter of fact, they did! Look at the Gainward Bliss 7800 GS+ 512mb AGP. It is a G71 graphics core (7900 core with a full 24-pixel pipelines!!!). Maybe you've never heard of it but it is in some reviews (only available in Europe). For your information, the G71 core is used to power the Geforce 7900GT and GTX!!!

This card is essentially a 7900 GT but labelled as above.

Why don't you google this card and read some reviews.

I would like to refer you to another review regarding ATI 1950pro:

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/powerc...iew/default.asp

In that review, although the AGP is a dying breed, it could more or less keep up with its PCI-E version. In some cases, there were negligible differences!!!

So, the question arises as to why they did not make "higher-end" AGP cards. Well, maybe it is because of their marketing strategy, to push users to using PCI-E. Maybe it is because they thought people would jump on the PCI-E bandwagon ASAP, since it is supposed to be faster. Maybe it is because AGP can't handle current graphics requirement (although reviews seem to say otherwise). Whatever the reason is, one thing is sure, there are still a lot of AGP users out there!

Previously, people say that there won't be any AGP version for the Nvidia 7 series. But it came out anyway.

Then, people say that there won't be anything higher that the 7800 GS. But Gainward made them eat their words.

Then, people say Gainward is the last high-end AGP. But out came the ATI 1950pro!

So, are you so sure that an AGP DX10 won't come out? I think it will!!! Because the market is too large for companies not to tap into. However, as you said, I don't think the card will be for the enthusiast group, probably more for the low-end group, you know, for them to run vista and new less-GPU-demanding games.

That's my 2 cents.......

[COLOR=red]Addition : Look at Valve survey summary:

http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html

(As of 1st March 2007)

AGP users (4x-8x) : 46.89% (257342 users)
PCI-E users : 45.67% (250645 users)

I rest my case.

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Added on April 19, 2007, 12:28 pmUpdate
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Found out that there is a X1950XT X series!!!! Check out Gecube ATI X1950XTX. It uses ATI Radeon R580+ GPU with GDDR3 256mb.

What is more important is the x-turbo fan with built-in TEC chip!!! (Thermo electric chip). With overclocking, the GPU temperature is maintained at 70-80 degrees only!!!

Another review that is relevant to the main topic:

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/31666/118/

Basically stating that AMD is losing its market share.....

In addition, remember that new graphics card series e.g. Geforce 7 series and ATI 1000 series are built PCI-E native. Meaning that for AGP cards, they have to have a bridge (Realto brigde, I think) to convert PCI-E to AGP. That is one of the reasons (among many) of why AGP can sometimes be slower (but now always).

This post has been edited by kmarc: Apr 19 2007, 12:28 PM