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 LYN Catholic Fellowship V02 (Group), For Catholics (Roman or Eastern)

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Haledoch
post Jul 19 2018, 04:54 PM

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QUOTE(Roman Catholic @ Jul 19 2018, 07:06 AM)
Found this. Thought it would be good to discuss about it with reference to the Holy Bible especially, possible, impossible or inadvisable on the questions by Epicurus ?

Added [A], [B], [C] & [D] just for ease of reference.
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QUOTE(zamorin @ Oct 6 2017, 09:22 PM)
OK , you being an agnostic, you are the perfect person to be asked this puzzle:
[A] “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
[B] Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
[C] Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
[D] Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

― Epicurus

Referring to above question, I can choose [C] because [A], [B] and [D] are obviously wrong. But then the question of whence cometh evil doesn't make sense at all if you don't believe in God. Who gives a person the authority to say his moral is better than the person he accused of committing the "evil deed". By the accused person perspective his "evil deed" is actually a "good deed" for him, or people that is on his side. Like in America the Left believe in Open Border, while the Right believe in Close Border. Which one is evil then? Or Hitler's deed which was beneficial for the german people, but not to the rest of the world. His deed was good from his perspective. Who can say he is evil when all he was doing was for the benefit of his people?

Fact is, if a person doesn't believe in God, then he should not believe there is any such thing as evil. For him nothing is evil.

This post has been edited by Haledoch: Jul 19 2018, 04:55 PM
Haledoch
post Jul 19 2018, 05:08 PM

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QUOTE(zamorin @ Jul 19 2018, 04:57 PM)
But Christianity itself states the existence of evil and Satan. It's in the Bible!!!
You can't now say it does not then continue with the riddle like it is irrelevant.
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You don't understand. I am questioning the rationality of the question. It is stupid in my opinion.

If you do not believe in God, you should not refer to the Bible at all. Evil word should be non-existent in your vocabulary. Why do you believe in evil thing? where do you get the idea your moral standard is better than anyone?

If there is no God, the world should run on who is the strongest survives. Havoc is the Lord.
Haledoch
post Jul 19 2018, 06:04 PM

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QUOTE(zamorin @ Jul 19 2018, 05:22 PM)
But this riddle is not for atheists like me but theists like you who believe in the premise of good and evil. You don't turn around and answer the riddle as an atheist while claiming you are a theist. That's being hypocritical.
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If the riddle is dumb how can it be answered in the correct way?
How can I be hypocritical when I am just stating the obvious? that the riddle doesn't make any sense.
How can you believe evil exist but God doesn't exist?
Why a question cannot be used to answer a question?
Why an atheist do not allow a theist to question back?

Well, I don't expect any good answer from an atheist either. It's a waste of time and actually I am sinning to my God by arguing with you. So I have no more question to you.
Haledoch
post Jul 20 2018, 07:41 AM

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QUOTE(zamorin @ Jul 19 2018, 06:26 PM)
Who said the riddle is dumb? It's far from it, no theists can answer it and also maintain there is god.
Just because you can't answer or spin the answer, doesn't make the riddle dumb, it just makes you beliefs dumb. I am not expecting honesty from you.

It's not it doesn't make sense, it makes perfect sense if you don't believe in god but that does not mean you answer it as an atheist because atheists have an answer and I already stated  before, if only you took the trouble reading before trying to dispute it. As a theists you have no answer and you can't pretend to be an atheist just to attempt to answer it, that defeats the whole purpose when Epicurus is asking the believers. Basic logic!!!
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I did try to reason the question from the atheistic point of view. Because the question was from an atheist.

It doesn't make sense for an atheist to form a question using something from the Bible (which he doesn't believe already) when he has no knowledge or has limited knowledge on the subject. The question is based around the existence of evil. Obviously the question being given must first assume that evil is real and does exist in this world. Do you agree?

Hence, it is from that reason why I am questioning an atheist such as you as why do you believe that evil exist when you do not believe God exist?

Where do you based your moral from? Is it based on the current government laws? Do they hold the highest moral standard? As you know each country has their own laws. Which of the country in this world has the highest moral standard? Do we based our moral on their standard? What about Hitler's government called Nazi? Are their laws evil or good? Can you define what is evil from the book of Atheism?
Haledoch
post Jul 20 2018, 09:43 AM

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QUOTE(zamorin @ Jul 20 2018, 08:37 AM)
Again another fallacy. Nobody was asking you to use the Bible to answer the question nor was the riddle based on the bible but since this is a catholic thread, you get your attributes of god and evil from the Bible. So what else can you base it on? If one were to ask the Mulsims, surely it won't be the Bible, it will be the Quran and they will have to or attempt to answer it based on the attributes of evil and God in the Quran.

We all agree that evil exists, including religions, it goes without saying and is the central premise of the riddle.

You don't know what atheism is (I am not trying to be rude), that's why you are asking the preceding questions. Why should we not believe that evil exists when its real? the same validity doesn't apply to god. Morals or what we base our morals on have nothing to do with atheism. You really think atheists have no morals or we are atheists because we like to commit evil? The opposite is most likely true. Atheism is based on knowledge and critical thinking not ignorance.

I put it to you the only difference between an atheist and a theist really is that we believe in one god less.

Hitler and the Nazi Party members were mostly Catholics (more than 90% of them), please don't attempt to conflate all evils on atheism. Your former Pope; Pope Benedict XVI (Ratzinger) was a Nazi party member!!!
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Answering your questions


Where do you based your moral from?

My morals unlike a theist is subjective and mine is based mostly one a single moral code - The Golden Rule: "do ut des" or it is stated in the Bible as such:  Do to others as you would have them do to you  - Luke 6:31

Is it based on the current government laws?
No.

Do they hold the highest moral standard?
Atheists? Ofcourse not, there have been several atheist mass murderers in history but these people didn't base their killings on atheism unlike religious killings.

As you know each country has their own laws. Which of the country in this world has the highest moral standard?
Surveys have shown less crime is commited in countries which are less religious. So the inference here is less religion - more higher morals, there is no other explanation.

Do we based our moral on their standard? What about Hitler's government called Nazi? Are their laws evil or good? Can you define what is evil from the book of Atheism?
Answered above.
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So you hold your own moral standard. Doesn't mean other follow your standard. What if someone hurt you one day and he justifies his action because he saw you as an evil person. Some will support and side with him, even if you suffer more. You cannot correctly say you are good and he is evil. Because everyone has their own moral standard and no one is trully good.

Same applies to countries. If our nation goes to war with say, Singapore, who can say for sure which country is evil here? When we don't know for sure, then evil should not be a sure and real thing. If we aren't really sure what evil really means and who represents it, then why do you want to use it as an argument to question the existence of God when its not really well defined from your book of atheism?
Haledoch
post Jul 20 2018, 10:16 AM

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QUOTE(zamorin @ Jul 20 2018, 09:47 AM)
No atheism is out of scope on moral values, thats why you should know what an atheist clearly is. I try to follow the golden rule not all atheist are moral or have moral principles but most tend to have.
NO, If someone hurts me, I will try to get even, for me and for others and I am not going to be turning the other cheek. But that doesn't mean I go and harm others first or disproportionately. That would make me immoral by my own code: do ut des

No one is ever good or evil.  Good and evil is intertwined in all of us but the more we follow moral codes, the more our better side comes to play.

Pls check what atheism is, its actually very simple.

EDIT:

atheism
ˈeɪθɪɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
noun: atheism
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

It does not have anything to do with morals, how we live, what laws we follow, nothing of that sort. Only just this one :disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. Nothing else is in the scope of atheism.
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I am not interested in what atheism stands for. For me atheism stands for foolishness.

If you can't realy tell who represents evil and if it really exist to you then the question from [C] will remain stupid to me. Makes no sense at all.

p.s. I will stop here. I agree with UW I don't want to mess and dirty this thread to answer a nonsensical question from an unbeliever. Forgive me.
Haledoch
post Jul 23 2018, 01:10 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Jul 23 2018, 12:23 PM)
The suposed riddle is based on false premises in the first place. What is evil? To Greeks like Epicurus, perhaps infanticide is not evil.
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Humanity represents evil.

God can eradicate all evil anytime easily, by wiping out the entire human species. Instead of preventing an evil thing from happening, which is only a temporary solution, why not make all human go extinct? The perfect solution.

But God nature isn't like that. He almost did wipe out the entire humanity through the flood of Noah. But He has too much love for humankind, He spared some (Noah and his family), and that He hopes some of us like Noah, on our own free will choose Him over this world before the beginning of the end.

So that one day, at the new promised age, humankind will be restored again to His original creation which is the perfect human being and we will rule this earth forever and ever without evil and sin.

 

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