I pulled it out of a donkeys arse. Or was it yours?

Yeah, glad you do, keep it that way and F. off and don't bother asking me again, you won't be getting any response from me unless you ask me nicely minus your arrogance.

You keep providing the ammo to insult you, I got no qualms using it.

If there are Catholics who thinks Mary is not a creature but equal to God, then they are wrong as the Church has never taught such a thing. I've mentioned different degrees of worship/veneration in the past, so I won't repeat it here, but we can never venerate Mary on the same level as God. As for thinking that is no need to venerate Mary or the saints and angels, let me give an example. If we believe all the saints and angels are alive in Christ and are like our family members in the mystical Body of Christ (read up on the concept of the Church Triumphant, Militant, Suffering), aka the doctrine of Communion of Saints, do we treat them with disdain and ignore them? Would we do the same to our fellow brethren in the Faith here on earth? Food for thought.

As for baptism, I have quoted scripture to back up that it does wash away sins. The thief on the cross can be easily explained. He was still under the Old Covenant, Christ ascended to Heaven 40 days after His resurrection. So the thief couldn't have been in Heaven before Christ did. Catholic Tradition explains that Christ descended into Hell (as per the Creed, not the Hell of eternal punishment but the place of the Fathers of the Old Covenant traditionally called Limbo of the Fathers of the OT) between the time of his Crucifixion and his Resurrection when he brought salvation to all of the righteous who had died since the beginning of the world. The soul of the good thief would be together with these righteous souls and enter Heaven together with Christ at His Ascension.

I've mentioned about prayer to the saints before, but if you forget, I'll be happy to repeat it here. See Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us. Asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us.

As for kissing statues of the saints, that is merely a sign of affection to love and honour those we regard as friends of God. It doesn't mean we equate them to God.

As for kissing statues of the saints, that is merely a sign of affection to love and honour those we regard as friends of God. It doesn't mean we equate them to God.

For us the saints can mean the saints here on earth or those in Heaven, or those in purgatory, what we call the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. No difference be they in heaven or on earth. Saints can and do intercede for us.

So what if it's statues? What is it's a photo? Does it make any difference? The statues are just the representations. Same like how the country's flag represents the country, or a photo of my mum represents my mum.

So what if it's statues? What is it's a photo? Does it make any difference? The statues are just the representations. Same like how the country's flag represents the country, or a photo of my mum represents my mum.

You are not the first to object. These are classic objections from Protestants.

James 5:14-18 King James Version (KJV)
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

Note here that the Bible itself recommends asking someone else to pray: “the elders” of the Church, who, like other Church leaders (1 Tim 3:1-13; Titus 1:7), are supposed to be of exemplary character, and “worthy of double honor” (1 Tim 5:17). They have more power, due to their ordination.

In Revelation 5:8, the “twenty-four elders” (usually regarded by commentators as dead human beings) “fell down before the Lamb . . . with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” They appear to have other people's prayers, to present to God. So the obvious question is: what are they doing with them? Why does Revelation present dead saints presenting the prayers of other saints to God?

If they have them, it stands to reason as a rather straightforward deduction, that they heard the initial prayers as well, or at least were granted knowledge of them in some fashion:  ultimately through the power of God. Revelation 8:3-4 is even more explicit. Rather than equating incense and prayers, it actually distinguishes between them, and presents the scenario that the prayers and incense are presented together:

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; [4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

It seems clear that they have heard the prayers of men, and are involved as intercessors. Angels are extremely intelligent beings. We know that they rejoice when a sinner repents. They have knowledge in ways that we do not; above our comprehension.

This is biblical proof that physically dead saints and angels both somehow know about our prayers and present them to God. They are acting as intercessors and intermediaries. How do they hear our prayers? God gives them the power to do so because they are in heaven and therefore, outside of time. They are aware of earthly events. We know that from Hebrews 12:1 (“we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses”) and from Revelation 6:9-10, where dead saints are praying for those on the earth.

This is our entire rationale for asking saints to pray to God for us: all in perfect harmony with the Bible:

1) Holy men and women's prayers have great power.

2) Physically dead saints are perfected in holiness and are still part of the Body of Christ.

3) The Blessed Virgin Mary in particular is exceptionally holy (Immaculate Conception) and as the Mother of God, her prayers have more power and effect than that of any other creature: all by God's grace.

4) We know that they are aware (or are made aware) of earthly events.

5) We know that they exercise much charity and pray for us.

Of course Catholics also pray directly to God, no one but the most extreme anti-Catholics denies that. Question is why can't we do both? To say that we have as much influence with God as with any saints in heaven shows pride, because it assumes that we are perfect, holy, and sinless already (unless one is so sure he or she is always in a state of grace), which is a deadly error -> the sin of presumption. For your information, all Catholic masses (Mass is the highest form of public worship in the Catholic Church) are offered to God and God alone.

Ultimately all the power comes from God. God may choose to let these be dispensed by anyone according to His Will. Elders of the Church have the authority to give the sacraments instituted by Christ (forgive sins, annointing of the sick).

As for the Immaculate Conception, I think I have posted enough on the other thread.

Aiyo, see my reply above lah https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...post&p=91945663

"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."