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 Bandmates and band seek, Searching for band members

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jay209
post Mar 12 2011, 01:21 PM

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Metal band LOOKING FOR A DRUMMER with any level of skill (we will mould you to our desired sound [submitting your ideas])

influences : Rage Against the Machine,System of a Down,Deftones,Nirvana,Incubus,Sepultura,Limp Bizkit,Linkin Park (old albums).Red Hot Chili Peppers,Judas Priest,Motley Crue,Anthrax,Deep Purple,Led Zeppelin,AC/DC,Mr BIG,Primus,Scorpions, Ozzy Osbourne, Black Label Society, Rob Zombie,Static-X,Rammstein,Muse,Alice in Chains,Dir en Grey,Soulfly,Drowning Pool,Kiss,Mudvane,Pantera,(guitarist an aficionado for Dimebag) Queens of the Stone Age, Kyuss,Paul Gilbert,Gojira,Children of Bodom,Chimaira,Killswitch Engage, Pink Floyd, Soundgarden,Audioslave, In Flames,Jimi Hendrix,Slipknot,Seether,Jet, Scars on Broadway,Papa Roach,The Killers, Beethoven,Bach,Interpol, The Strobes, Arch Enemy, Motorhead, Iron Maiden, Megadeth,Metallica (all albums up to the black album), Slayer, Municipal Waste, Guns N Roses, U2, Parkway Drive, Tiamat, Deicide, Dethklok, All Shall Parish, All That Remains, Lamb of god, Godflesh,Nine Inch Nails,Black Sabbath, Rolling Stones, Sex Pistols,Apocolyptica, Killing Joke, Ministry, The Melvins, Racer-X

we're looking at a fusion of all the above bands and we're open to new sounds as well...as long as its metal..it has to be as a Machine Gun...or as metal as a horse with a Machine Gun...thats metal....very metal...

if your interested give me a call : Eze -0132083477 (call me anytime any day...even at night)
:Jason-0123767439 (call me if Eze doesnt pick up)

IMPORTANT NOTE IF YOUR NOT A DRUMMER AND YOU PLAY OTHER INSTRUMENTS: such as a mandolin, keyboard, or anything that isnt an electric guitar to bass, please give me a call as well, much appreciated
SUSWintersuN
post Mar 12 2011, 05:04 PM

Look at all my stars!!
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QUOTE(jay209 @ Mar 12 2011, 01:21 PM)
Metal band LOOKING FOR A DRUMMER with any level of skill (we will mould you to our desired sound [submitting your ideas])

influences : Rage Against the Machine,System of a Down,Deftones,Nirvana,Incubus,Sepultura,Limp Bizkit,Linkin Park (old albums).Red Hot Chili Peppers,Judas Priest,Motley Crue,Anthrax,Deep Purple,Led Zeppelin,AC/DC,Mr BIG,Primus,Scorpions, Ozzy Osbourne, Black Label Society, Rob Zombie,Static-X,Rammstein,Muse,Alice in Chains,Dir en Grey,Soulfly,Drowning Pool,Kiss,Mudvane,Pantera,(guitarist an aficionado for Dimebag) Queens of the Stone Age, Kyuss,Paul Gilbert,Gojira,Children of Bodom,Chimaira,Killswitch Engage, Pink Floyd, Soundgarden,Audioslave, In Flames,Jimi Hendrix,Slipknot,Seether,Jet, Scars on Broadway,Papa Roach,The Killers, Beethoven,Bach,Interpol, The Strobes, Arch Enemy, Motorhead, Iron Maiden, Megadeth,Metallica (all albums up to the black album), Slayer, Municipal Waste, Guns N Roses, U2, Parkway Drive, Tiamat, Deicide, Dethklok, All Shall Parish, All That Remains, Lamb of god, Godflesh,Nine Inch Nails,Black Sabbath, Rolling Stones, Sex Pistols,Apocolyptica, Killing Joke, Ministry, The Melvins, Racer-X

we're looking at a fusion of all the above bands and we're open to new sounds as well...as long as its metal..it has to be as a Machine Gun...or as metal as a horse with a Machine Gun...thats metal....very metal...

if your interested give me a call : Eze -0132083477 (call me anytime any day...even  at night)
                                              :Jason-0123767439 (call me if Eze doesnt pick up)

IMPORTANT NOTE IF YOUR NOT A DRUMMER AND YOU PLAY OTHER INSTRUMENTS: such as a mandolin, keyboard, or anything that isnt an electric guitar to bass, please give me a call as well, much appreciated
*
Penang?
suzann
post Mar 13 2011, 12:11 AM

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Joined: Dec 2007


Anyone needs a vocalist?

I'm more to pop rock. Always trying to improve my singing. No shouting metal. But me like metal like evanescence, Darling Violetta.

Cheras area. Pm me and see how can things work out smile.gif


Hydra96
post Mar 13 2011, 12:12 AM

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Instrument:
1. Drum
2. Vocals (Backing/Lead. Backing preferable. And Growling)

Influences:
Metallica, Slipknot, Amon Amarth, Epica, Delain, Turisas, Hollywood Undead, Deep Purple, Skillet, Daughtry, Here Comes the Kraken, Behemoth, Killswitch Engage, Sonata Arctica, Boys Like Girls, The Letter Black, Dimmu Borgir. You name it, I'll pick it up.

Preferences:
Rock/Hard Rock/Metal band with at 2 guitarist, 1 bass, and 1 female lead singer with ability to sing properly.

My requirements:
Band mates able to speak English fluently, not assholes, have a place to jam.

Add Info:
I also am fluent with the Double/Twin Pedals. I am capable of hitting 260bpm on the bass drum. I use a wide variety of cymbals. China, Splash, Spiral Crash, stuff like that.

Looking for:
Serious band.


Added on March 13, 2011, 12:19 am
QUOTE(WintersuN @ Mar 8 2011, 12:55 PM)
Ya we will video for all to c and put here smile.gif
*
Arch Enemy? Now who's going to growl? You should do like Amon Amarth.

This post has been edited by Hydra96: Mar 13 2011, 12:19 AM
hungryjack82
post Mar 13 2011, 01:30 PM

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Joined: Aug 2008


Hi all,

I'm not looking for a band to join here...

instead, i would like to take some pictures of band playing in studio. Not a pro photographer, just my hobby.

If any of you are interested, please pm me. I'm from KL.

Thanks and best regards,
Clement
a.dfrangipani
post Mar 13 2011, 02:57 PM

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Joined: Jun 2009
From: Shah Alam, Selangor


Interesting..might PM you bout the photo one day..
jay209
post Mar 13 2011, 03:28 PM

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Joined: Mar 2011
QUOTE(WintersuN @ Mar 12 2011, 05:04 PM)
Penang?
*
KL


Added on March 14, 2011, 2:31 am
QUOTE(WintersuN @ Mar 12 2011, 05:04 PM)
Penang?
*
na sorry, location is in KL


Added on March 14, 2011, 3:57 pm
QUOTE(Hydra96 @ Mar 13 2011, 12:12 AM)
Instrument:
1. Drum
2. Vocals (Backing/Lead. Backing preferable. And Growling)

Influences:
Metallica, Slipknot, Amon Amarth, Epica, Delain, Turisas, Hollywood Undead, Deep Purple, Skillet, Daughtry, Here Comes the Kraken, Behemoth, Killswitch Engage, Sonata Arctica, Boys Like Girls, The Letter Black, Dimmu Borgir. You name it, I'll pick it up.

Preferences:
Rock/Hard Rock/Metal band with at 2 guitarist, 1 bass, and 1 female lead singer with ability to sing properly.

My requirements:
Band mates able to speak English fluently, not assholes, have a place to jam.

Add Info:
I also am fluent with the Double/Twin Pedals. I am capable of hitting 260bpm on the bass drum. I use a wide variety of cymbals. China, Splash, Spiral Crash, stuff like that.

Looking for:
Serious band.


Added on March 13, 2011, 12:19 am

Arch Enemy? Now who's going to growl? You should do like Amon Amarth.
*
hey would you be interested in our band? we posted above you.
we live in KL and if you live around wangsa maju/sentul transportation wont be an issue
our current sound is hardcore-rap pm me if your interested

This post has been edited by jay209: Mar 14 2011, 03:57 PM
a.dfrangipani
post Mar 14 2011, 09:54 PM

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Joined: Jun 2009
From: Shah Alam, Selangor


Hola..

1) Paid In Fiction is looking for a drummer, as our drummer, one of the band’s co-founders, resigned due to work commitments.

2) Influences/preferences: Anything, honestly. It’s rock for sure, but it’s also a mix of experimentation and the result of each band members’ own personal voice - we like to think of it as our sound, and we aspire to be as original as possible, staying true to what inspired us in the first place. Our influences are diverse and eclectic - from Led Zeppelin to A Perfect Circle, Porcupine Tree, Tori Amos, Bob Dylan, The Eels, Lite, Mouse On The Keys, Leonard Cohen, Jeff Buckley, Portishead, The Police, Dario Marianelli, The Clash, Bjork, Aretha Franklin, Hans Zimmer, Bach, The Jacksons – it’s impossible to name all of them here! We have the deepest respect for these geniuses and draw inspiration from their work. We listen to all branches of rock, as well as blues, jazz, gospel, classical, rap, folk, ska, soul, punk, country, trip hop, reggae, R&B, dub step, electronica, traditional music – and it goes on. We are embracers of music.

3) Location: PJ, KJ, Taman Tun, Shah Alam, Bkt Jelutong..in short Klang Valley la

4) Our requirements: a Drummer with good level of commitment and discipline, and able to click well with the rest of the members. A must!..is having a high level of open-mindedness for musical craziness to try wide perspectives of musical creativities. No preferences in regards to race, gender or age (not too old please!, as the present 6 band members’ age ranges from 25 to 30).

5) Add info: Just to share, we have a number of events already lined-up until October 2011, with the nearest ones are at Laundry on 31st March and Esplanade Outdoor Carnival, Penang on 2nd April. A fast reply on this would really help a lot.

Should you wanna know more, please visit us at FB, MySpace or ReverbNation and type in ‘Paid In Fiction’. Have a listen to our demo songs. FYI, an album is already scheduled to start at the end of this year.

Would really look forward to see and hear how your elements could widen the band's spectrum should any of you wanna give it a try. Mail us at paidinfiction@gmail.com and we'll chat more then.

Thank you for listening.
tenuk_cyber
post Mar 16 2011, 11:46 PM

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From: Naikland



1. state the instrument(s) you play; piano, keyboard, guitar
2. your influences/musical preferences; all kinds of metal, jazz, pop,
3. looking for who; people which can be friends who are free to teach me anything about music theory and practical
4. his/her influences/musical preferences; classical perhaps?
5. your requirements (e.g. must be able to play drums with double/twin pedal, etc.); know how to read music sheet / sight reading
6. any other related info ; currently im studying piano at yamaha music school at taipan,still grade one tho sweat.gif , half an hour a week and seems like it will take couple years to grad, so i want to enhance myself so i can skip grade. hmm.gif
jay209
post Mar 19 2011, 03:59 AM

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QUOTE(tenuk_cyber @ Mar 16 2011, 11:46 PM)
1. state the instrument(s) you play; piano, keyboard, guitar
2. your influences/musical preferences; all kinds of metal, jazz, pop,
3. looking for who; people which can be friends who are free to teach me anything about music theory and practical
4. his/her influences/musical preferences; classical perhaps?
5. your requirements (e.g. must be able to play drums with double/twin pedal, etc.); know how to read music sheet / sight reading
6. any other related info ; currently im studying piano at yamaha music school at taipan,still grade one tho  sweat.gif , half an hour a week and seems like it will take couple years to grad, so i want to enhance myself so i can skip grade.  hmm.gif
*
erm...my band plays a mixture of Hardcore and rap...think Rage Against the Machine meets the sex pistols....personally im looking for someone to play piano for us to create a sense of melody, but if you can play keyboards, that would be great as well, only two members of the band can actually read music (including me) and know theory, my musical background is classical, i played the violin/cello, but i play bass atm, my personal intrest is pretty much heavy metal, but our band is open to shitloads of music, but our sound is still very heavy, so if your intrested to be a part of an ever-evolving sound and if you think your musically enabled to our type of sound, give me a shout

influences : System Of a Down,Rage Against the Machine, Helmet, Slipknot, Black Sabbath, Rammstein,Metallica, Anthrax, Cypress Hill,KoRn, Arch Enemy,Vivaldi,In Flames, Chopin, Queens of the Stone Age, Iron Maiden, Kyuss, Sepultura, Soulfly etc etc etc
Rayne1989
post Mar 19 2011, 01:43 PM

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Joined: Jan 2008


I have 2 bands looking for:

Vocalist / Songwriter

Location of band: Cheras

The band is called "Of Mix & Matches", originally planned to be an instrumental band until one of the guitarist has left due to academic commitments, the band is currently seeking a new direction as a Pop Rock band and is looking for a Vocalist which also writes songs to join the band. Acceptable genres are: Pop, Rock, R&B and most contemporary genres.

Keyboard/Synth Player


Location of band: Petaling Jaya

The band is caled "Windy Days", the band is currently a 4-Piece band (Lead guitar/Vocals, Rhythm Guitar/Backing Vocals, Bass, Drum) and would like to expand it's repertoire to enrich the backing tracks and open up to more possibilities when writing songs. The band currently plays Alternative Rock and Punk Rock, regarding the Synth/Keyboards please refer to L'Arc-en-Ciel which is the main motivation and influence to search for a Keyboardist.

If interested, please PM me or send an E-mail to Rayne89@gmail.com

Note: Both bands require commitment and discipline to attend band practice once per week, passion and love for performing music helps too!

This post has been edited by Rayne1989: Mar 20 2011, 12:21 PM
whatsupbro
post Mar 20 2011, 12:56 AM

~Musician wannabe~
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Joined: Mar 2005


Im still looking for a drummer and a bassist who are willing to jam and record a session with me... just to cover mayb 3-4 songs...

Im not looking to form a band.. I just need ur precious talent and a bit of ur time... I will pay for the jam sessions.... Loc around KL,PJ,AMPANG...

please do PM me yeah.. oh btw

all songs are instrumentals...

(STEVE VAI)
-Tender Surrender
-Die to Live

(Paul Gilbert)
-I canot tell a Lie

(Andy timmons)
-GONE
raining again
post Mar 20 2011, 03:01 AM

It's raining again, again ... and again
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Senior Member
895 posts

Joined: Nov 2006


1. state the instrument(s) you play; rhythm/lead guitar, basic bass
2. your influences/musical preferences; nirvana, oasis, radiohead. (britpop,gruge,experimental)
3. looking for who; people to jam with!!
4. his/her influences/musical preferences; as long as we can jam together!!
5. your requirements (e.g. must be able to play drums with double/twin pedal, etc.); friendly
6. any other related requirements. around pj/damansara area.. but i have transport so as long as not that far

20 years old guitarist looking to form/join either a commiting/just for fun band.
i'm so bored now.. interested in song writing too.

017 2913025 please contact me if u in-need of musician!!
jay209
post Mar 21 2011, 12:13 AM

Getting Started
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81 posts

Joined: Mar 2011
QUOTE(raining again @ Mar 20 2011, 03:01 AM)
1. state the instrument(s) you play; rhythm/lead guitar, basic bass
2. your influences/musical preferences; nirvana, oasis, radiohead. (britpop,gruge,experimental)
3. looking for who; people to jam with!!
4. his/her influences/musical preferences; as long as we can jam together!!
5. your requirements (e.g. must be able to play drums with double/twin pedal, etc.); friendly
6. any other related requirements. around pj/damansara area.. but i have transport so as long as not that far

20 years old guitarist looking to form/join either a commiting/just for fun band.
i'm so bored now.. interested in song writing too.

017 2913025 please contact me if u in-need of musician!!
*
can you play drums?


Added on March 21, 2011, 12:14 amplay drums? if ur like metal ur welcome to join our band or just chill with us

This post has been edited by jay209: Mar 21 2011, 12:14 AM
joneightyfive
post Mar 22 2011, 06:19 AM

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Joined: Dec 2009
From: Kuala Lumpur


supp guys smile.gif

1) looking for: Lead/ Rhythm Guitarist + Backup vocals (male/female)
2) instrument: Guitar
3) influences/preferences: Smashing pumpkins, chevelle, foo fighters, the offspring, temper trap, nirvana, kings of leon, etc
4) location: PJ Damansara
5) my requirements: dont have to be perfect, just click well with the band smile.gif
6) Add info: We are a 4 piece band. Low profile, just for the sake of fun. PM me if interested biggrin.gif
hidzwan
post Mar 22 2011, 11:46 AM

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377 posts

Joined: Jan 2009
From: Fuenlabrada


hello there,

just wanna promote myself, i'm used to be mid level moderate guitarist. i want to be my former self again. heavily involve in a band, gig, battle n etc.

i'm not a super fast lick skillful shredder but give me a week i can play wuteva song u give..

so, if in any chance u guys want a guitarist just feel free to PM me.

p/s: i had no particular preference, i in love with the whole range of music. from Malay asli to rock kapak to dream theater to jason becker
pleasuresaurus
post Mar 22 2011, 12:10 PM

spin spin sugar
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Joined: Jan 2008
From: got la sumwhere


QUOTE(hidzwan @ Mar 22 2011, 11:46 AM)
hello there,

just wanna promote myself, i'm used to be mid level moderate guitarist. i want to be my former self again. heavily involve in a band, gig, battle n etc.

i'm not a super fast lick skillful shredder but give me a week i can play wuteva song u give..

so, if in any chance u guys want a guitarist just feel free to PM me.

p/s: i had no particular preference, i in love with the whole range of music. from Malay asli to rock kapak to dream theater to jason becker
*
location plz?
jonathanng
post Mar 23 2011, 03:59 AM

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Lyricist wanted. Or just completed lyrics for me to use/edit/destroy. I know that lyricists are a rare breed. No harm in trying here. I'm always fishing in someone else' pond when i'm out playing music. Every once a while i win a few suckers. If this ad does not interest you, look away. Nothing personal. Just music. Send me samples of your best work. jonathanng@hotmail.my And once again, please no reposting. No promise that you'll get huge. If your work is more important than you, you might wanna give it a shot. Bear in mind that i sing like your grandfather. Every once a while, i might sound pretty good. But that lasts for about 30 seconds.

Didn't stop some of the suckers in the crowd from applauding me. And there are those who don't like anything i play. Awhhh... Have you tried pleasing everyone lately? "I like unpopular music but i always take popular opinion into account. Hehe." And also there are those who wait for the set to be over before cheering me on. They must've mistook me for Jesus Christ.

But know this, i don't pull songs out of my butt. If you don't want me to work on your lyrics, again, look away. It's not hard, look away. Or, you can try scrolling down. If you look towards the most right of your screen, you'll notice this nifty little widget. Try clicking the brick-thingy and drag it down. Notice how the page moved? And if you have a mouse with a gadget in the middle that rotates like a wheel, you can use that to scroll too.

A rough idea of what i have in mind.
1. Me no like flowers and tealeaves and cows and chickens and donkeys. Straight forward stuff. Nothing personal. My taste.
2. I especially hate i-care-about-you-my-friend, dont-die-my-friend.
3. Perfect sequencing and pacing. You don't want the whole story in the chorus and the verse to go like this-> Roses are red, violets are blue.
But as always, rules are made to be broken. These are just guidelines. I'm no expert and this is no artist-speak. This is human-speak. I write songs and i'm looking for a lyricist. Plain and simple. Any topic. But try to avoid the cliched subject matters. If you write like my mum, i might as well work with my mum. "Burung... kakak... tua.... Gigi... tinggal. dua...."

Once again, nothing personal. If this sounds offensive for any strange farking reason, please go take it out on your video game. Or better yet, go watch porn. You'll get something out of it. Trust me. It's white, sticky, and a lot of fun. I have nothing personal against any of you. Seriously. You know, i like video games too. But being 21, it sorta puts your life into perspective.

This post has been edited by jonathanng: Mar 23 2011, 04:22 AM
SUSWintersuN
post Mar 23 2011, 09:24 AM

Look at all my stars!!
*******
Senior Member
3,173 posts

Joined: Nov 2010
QUOTE(jonathanng @ Mar 23 2011, 03:59 AM)
Lyricist wanted. Or just completed lyrics for me to use/edit/destroy. I know that lyricists are a rare breed. No harm in trying here. I'm always fishing in someone else' pond when i'm out playing music. Every once a while i win a few suckers. If this ad does not interest you, look away. Nothing personal. Just music. Send me samples of your best work. jonathanng@hotmail.my And once again, please no reposting. No promise that you'll get huge. If your work is more important than you, you might wanna give it a shot. Bear in mind that i sing like your grandfather. Every once a while, i might sound pretty good. But that lasts for about 30 seconds.

Didn't stop some of the suckers in the crowd from applauding me. And there are those who don't like anything i play. Awhhh... Have you tried pleasing everyone lately? "I like unpopular music but i always take popular opinion into account. Hehe." And also there are those who wait for the set to be over before cheering me on. They must've mistook me for Jesus Christ.

But know this, i don't pull songs out of my butt. If you don't want me to work on your lyrics, again, look away. It's not hard, look away. Or, you can try scrolling down. If you look towards the most right of your screen, you'll notice this nifty little widget. Try clicking the brick-thingy and drag it down. Notice how the page moved? And if you have a mouse with a gadget in the middle that rotates like a wheel, you can use that to scroll too.

A rough idea of what i have in mind.
1. Me no like flowers and tealeaves and cows and chickens and donkeys. Straight forward stuff. Nothing personal. My taste. 
2. I especially hate i-care-about-you-my-friend, dont-die-my-friend.
3. Perfect sequencing and pacing. You don't want the whole story in the chorus and the verse to go like this-> Roses are red, violets are blue.
But as always, rules are made to be broken. These are just guidelines. I'm no expert and this is no artist-speak. This is human-speak. I write songs and i'm looking for a lyricist. Plain and simple. Any topic. But try to avoid the cliched subject matters. If you write like my mum, i might as well work with my mum. "Burung... kakak... tua.... Gigi... tinggal. dua...."

Once again, nothing personal. If this sounds offensive for any strange farking reason, please go take it out on your video game. Or better yet, go watch porn. You'll get something out of it. Trust me. It's white, sticky, and a lot of fun. I have nothing personal against any of you. Seriously. You know, i like video games too. But being 21, it sorta puts your life into perspective.
*
COOL!! YOu're the coolest guy ever posted in here. I think ucan use wat ever u type here as your lyrics by changing a few parts here and there to become a song wink.gif
KelvinBass
post Mar 23 2011, 10:58 AM

New Member
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Junior Member
19 posts

Joined: Nov 2010


QUOTE(jonathanng @ Mar 23 2011, 03:59 AM)
Lyricist wanted. Or just completed lyrics for me to use/edit/destroy. I know that lyricists are a rare breed. No harm in trying here. I'm always fishing in someone else' pond when i'm out playing music. Every once a while i win a few suckers. If this ad does not interest you, look away. Nothing personal. Just music. Send me samples of your best work. jonathanng@hotmail.my And once again, please no reposting. No promise that you'll get huge. If your work is more important than you, you might wanna give it a shot. Bear in mind that i sing like your grandfather. Every once a while, i might sound pretty good. But that lasts for about 30 seconds.

Didn't stop some of the suckers in the crowd from applauding me. And there are those who don't like anything i play. Awhhh... Have you tried pleasing everyone lately? "I like unpopular music but i always take popular opinion into account. Hehe." And also there are those who wait for the set to be over before cheering me on. They must've mistook me for Jesus Christ.

But know this, i don't pull songs out of my butt. If you don't want me to work on your lyrics, again, look away. It's not hard, look away. Or, you can try scrolling down. If you look towards the most right of your screen, you'll notice this nifty little widget. Try clicking the brick-thingy and drag it down. Notice how the page moved? And if you have a mouse with a gadget in the middle that rotates like a wheel, you can use that to scroll too.

A rough idea of what i have in mind.
1. Me no like flowers and tealeaves and cows and chickens and donkeys. Straight forward stuff. Nothing personal. My taste. 
2. I especially hate i-care-about-you-my-friend, dont-die-my-friend.
3. Perfect sequencing and pacing. You don't want the whole story in the chorus and the verse to go like this-> Roses are red, violets are blue.
But as always, rules are made to be broken. These are just guidelines. I'm no expert and this is no artist-speak. This is human-speak. I write songs and i'm looking for a lyricist. Plain and simple. Any topic. But try to avoid the cliched subject matters. If you write like my mum, i might as well work with my mum. "Burung... kakak... tua.... Gigi... tinggal. dua...."

Once again, nothing personal. If this sounds offensive for any strange farking reason, please go take it out on your video game. Or better yet, go watch porn. You'll get something out of it. Trust me. It's white, sticky, and a lot of fun. I have nothing personal against any of you. Seriously. You know, i like video games too. But being 21, it sorta puts your life into perspective.
*
heh... go write ur own lyrics... LOL.. no one wanna give their precious work to someone else to destroy...

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