Legally speaking, if one is an Australian/New Zealand/U.S./U.K./other citizen (ie holding the passport of their adoptive nation), and one has renounced their Singaporean citizenship, Singapore's NS laws do not apply to them, even if they were formerly a Singaporean citizen.

By international convention, arresting a ex-Singaporean holding another citizenship is like arresting a Malaysian national just because he is of the right age for NS. It is different however, if you only have a PR of another country.

PR's by definition only give you the right of abode. It does not confer diplomatic protection and rights by the PR issuing state.

Whoops, I've gone off-topic again eh? ^_^;;

Do either:
1)STPM
2)A-levels
3)SAM

or don't even bother. I am not a big fan of foundation programs in ANY discipline, but even more so for medicine. Proprietary "foundation" programs are very dodgy. There is no peer review, so no one knows WTF you learn, and you are generally tied to the institution you did the said "foundation". If things don't go to plan, you're stuck.

And if they are too difficult, maybe you are not doctor material?

In the Malaysian context, the only place where there is a "twinning programme during the degree course" would be IMU.

I stand corrected. Forgot to take into account the number of medical schools mushrooming. Through I must say that the traditional definition of twinning is doing a few years in Malaysia before wrapping up in the partner institution.

For MMMC, PMS and to a extent, ACMS, the reverse seems to happen.

Why not? Hospitals are just like any other place, with telecommunication infrastructure. Probably more than the average place.

Nothing surprising, to be honest. Cuba is one of the few places where socialism has kinda worked. However, in the same vein, where Democracy does not work in many places, one success story does not make socialism the future, as the Left loves to preach in these GFC times.

Want proof socialism does not work in south-east Asia? Look at the history of Myanmar/Burma and Vietnam.
Lesson in statistics: the probability of "lousy, undeserving students" coming out of 3rd world universities/private medical universities in Malaysia is higher than 1st world universities with tight entry requirements. Why? Law of economics. There is no shortage of people with money, but with mediocre results. On the other hand, there are people with the results, but without money.

There are also "[a] great number of lousy, undeserving students entering local universities both public and private institutions. We also have an abundance of mentally-challenged personalities graduating from India, Ukraine, Ireland, Indonesia and China."

On the flip side, many medical schools are famous not because they produce a few bright/brilliant graduates, but because they consistently produce competent graduates. Rightly or wrongly, like many things in life (try arguing at Heathrow immigration that you're not going to overstay like the 30,000 other Malaysians if you don't have a return ticket), you are tarred with the same brush from where you graduated. You can prove that you are competent, but until then, you are lumped into the same boat. Aka generalised.

Looks like someone has trouble accepting that fact.

I can tell you the courts will disagree with "Dr. Pot"'s reasoning of a "objective statement". See Foo Fio Na v. Dr Soo Fook Mun & Assunta Hospital [2007] 1 MLJ 593. Overrode the Bolam test it did, but it only said doctors still bear responsibility even if you "acted in accordance with [..] accepted medical practice to decide such cases".

Say what you will, but at the end of the day, any medical negligence is decided by the courts, even if the medical profession disagrees with the courts. (See the many commentaries on the Bolam test)

Looking around, there is no lack of stories of medical graduates from the third world who don't even act "in accordance with [..] accepted medical practice" to start off with.

References:
http://www.ipsofactoj.com/appeal/2007/Part...007(02)-011.htm

This post has been edited by haya: May 21 2009, 03:55 PM

the best part of the letter:


Question for the day: why are medical graduates from 1st world medical universities given positive generalizations, while those from Russia have a disproportionate number of horror stories, published in mediums as varied to blogs to the mainstream press?

Ever considered being a law student bhypp? A few sessions in the Magistrates Court, reading of a few appeal cases, and you'd end up cynical and wishing there was a black book on the floor on a rainy day.

But I digress.

I do not know of anyone who has not lied. Skipping classes in university is also all too common, in ANY medical school. The difference is some know how to fail and boot you out, while others will turn a blind eye with the correct grease.

People are always going to exploit and get around any system. The question is, how many will? Not many people get away with bringing more than what is allowed on a international flight (even if there are loopholes), but there are no lack of people, by hook or by crook, trying to get into restricted courses, by any means.

A good doctor is not "good enough". We need competent doctors. While admittedly not all who skip classes will be bad doctors, empirical evidence would suggest that statically, there are more number of "bad doctors" who cheat, lie and skip classes, than those who stay on course. No one is saying you need to be at home, studying at every waking hour of the day (through I have to say the life of many university students is as such at times).

And cheating is a VERY SERIOUS offense in almost all university disciplines. It doesn't matter if you cheat and you become "good enough", you are still a cheat, and in many professional bodies that is an unforgivable crime. It need not be malicious: a few years back there was a international student (who are allowed to bring in bi-lingual dictionaries for exams if they apply for the privilege) was found in possession of a bi-lingual dictionary with writing in it in the exam hall itself.

His paper was taken away, and I never saw him again. Rumor has it he was kicked out of university, and the writing in the dictionary was allegedly non-IT related to start off with. Myth or not, I have to say it is a good deterrent.

But I suppose in Bolehland, as long as you boleh stay undetected, all is well..........
So the world is full of cheaters, so we can also cheat then? The white man also practiced discrimination, so it is okay for us to?

The check and balances is to prevent accidental mistakes that humans make, not compensate for an incompetent person. There is a system to make sure all OT tools are accounted for, yet there ate no lack of cases where things are left in patients.

The question is, what proportion of "excellent students" come out of "bad unis", and what proportion "rappy students" come out of "good unis"? My maths may be the product of my imagination, but apparently my imagination is shared by many other people in society.

To those who insist that one should be judged on their personal qualities and not their institution of learning, well, until you prove yourself, this is how society is going to judge you, rightly or wrongly.

Look up the premise of Death Note, and how some schools in China (amongst other nations) have banned the carrying of black colored books.


I got my wheels the legal way, I paid my fines when it came. I don't broadcast it to everyone around me. As they say, it is the empty can that resonates the loudest.
That is what the whole purpose of this discussion is about: to hopefully enlighten people who otherwise may have "blindly jump[ed] on the bandwagon". Even if we change the mind of ONE doctor-death-to-be, it would be enough.

I don't expect revolutionary change, as most here seem to seek. If I can convince one person against pursuing a MD in fleabag eastern Europe countries, maybe others will redirect their friends/relatives to me for "advice", in the hope that one day, demand for places in questionable medical schools will not be such a big thing, and the MMC may have some willpower to deregister them.

It will probably wouldn't be fast enough to stop me from being looked at by Dr Death through.

Okay, maybe I was a bit harsh on the "flea-bag country" statement, and I do apologise. I will admit that it was the Russians who were first in space, first to send something to the moon, and gave us probably the most popular weapon on earth. Their literature has a place in this world, more than a few stations along the Moscow metro are amazing works of arts, and they did give us Dmitri Mendeleev and Dmitry Sklyarov. The Soyuz-TMA and Proton rockets are still going strong (which is more than I can say for the Space Shuttle).

All this from a nation which is very poor.

And prima facie, those who survive their medical schools and do come out of the other end seem to be strong. However, one has to ask, are they the rule, or the exception?

I will not be surprised if "there are those who come out with knowledge paralleling that of seasoned MOs". That is how the world works. I would be very impressed through, if the majority of Russian graduates are like that.

I know people who went to Russia. I have friends in KSMU. I did tell them the misgivings of the medical profession towards Russian medical schools. They have told me horror stories, but also anecdotes of resilience. Yes, their parents wanted them to be a doctor. Yes, money was a factor. No, they did not get straight A1's in SPM before they left to do a "foundation" program.

Some would say they are not qualified to be doctors. As they say, the proof is in the pudding. A pudding that my nourish me, or kill me.

Now I know why Russian roulette is named as such.

And I know "Melayu mudah lupa", but it wasn't that long ago when the MMC deregisted Crimea State Medical University (yes, I know it is in Ukraine), to howls of protest.And like everything else Malaysian, accusations of racism. But is it not limited to Ukrainian universities.

It is not politically viable to deregister any medical school in Malaysia.

If CyberSetan or anyone else wishes to start contacting some people to bring this matter up:

Minister for Health: Liow Tiong Lai (through you might want to find someone who can write in Mandarin)

The MOH also has a complaints form, through they cynical side of me says it points to /dev/null

Unfortunately, we can't deal with the MMC, as they cannot "deal with concerns or complaints against anyone who is NOT a registered doctor".

MMA president: Dr David Quek Kwang Leng

Then there's everyone's favorite Uncle Lim, and probably the most famous political blogger, Jeff Ooi.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...7175&sec=nation

I still fall over in laughter every time I read of UTAR's plans to have their own medical school.

Ask a significant majority of UTAR students. They have trouble teaching the "normal" subjects such as accounting, Civil Engineering, and they want to open a medical school which requires a lot of time, resources, knowledge and administration. And we haven't even talked about the clinical years.

Well, with society complaining that doctors charge a arm and a leg in consultations and they come out empty handed, let's hope the doctor taxi drivers at least use meters.