Come on be a man. dont come barking madly and then run away with tail in between your legs so fast.

I am sure the following post is very easy to prove or disprove by simple maths, any Tom Dick and Harry can do it.

if you with ACCA or CFA and still dont know how to disprove that, better you go resit again.

These are simple clear straight forward hypotheses:

1) If you buy at 10% cheaper, later when the price picks up, you will earn 10% more than your friend any time.
2) The higher the UT price moves up, the more you will win over your friend, by 11%,12%,13% etc. i call it multiplying effect even though you just bought 10% cheaper, you can win your friend by more than 10% at the end.

Come on prove it wrong, by simply putting in some numbers and test them!

This post has been edited by guy3288: Oct 2 2016, 10:45 PM

On the one hand you acknowledge "what happens next no one knows" but on the other hand you contradicts yourself using an example that clearly implied yklooi "knows", so that he can sell and buy back later at a much cheaper price.

Similarly i can also say what if the UT goes up ,of course yklooi who sold at a loss earlier will lose even more
now if he were to buy back again. Is that some great argument? NO!

You are wasting my time making circular arguments like that!

But then go think about it again (not that i agree with your untenable presumption there)
you tell me why your yklooi can win there??

I am sorry to say it again, it is because he has bought at a LOWER NAV price!

Now what? Enter at whatever NAV price does not matter as long as you choose the correct UT?

if my statement is wrong ,you think that can stand in a lions den without being torn to pieces?
you dont have to agree with me, you only need to see if that is a fact or not.

Anyone who is reasonable enough should know there is hardly any need for argument on a simple statement that says
if you buy cheaper you win over another who buys it at higher price.

common sense, yet it seems that is not so common to many in here...sigh. they put too many compounding
factors in it. What if i buy and he sells, what if I buy Fund A and he buys Fund B etc....That is ridiculous! How can
you compare the effect of price difference on 2 totally different scenarios, you buy he sells etc etc, 2 different funds worse!

Of course it must refer to SAME UT, both stay same invested , or else how can you compare? Basic stats man!

That is a very reasonable comment, as long as the UT can go up, even if you buy a little higher you still can make money out of it. I am not telling people dont go buy it. High can go higher still.

But that is besides my point.

What I am saying all this while is: if you buy at a higher price (eg KGF at RM1.0175 last week), you are losing out to someone who bought it cheaper at RM0.9855 last month. He got more units than you for the SAME amount of money invested.

But that seems to ruffle quite a few feathers here. Because the self-called sifus want to drill into you guys' head,
buy KGF at RM0.9855 or RM1.0175 or whatever other prices, it doesnt matter!.It makes NO DIFFERENCE etc etc.........in other words, you just buy it ,if you think that UT is good, so dont go TIME the market, blah blah,.......

That is what i find plain boolshit and must be rebutted at all costs.

Tell me you agree or not it DOES NOT matter if pay RM10,000 for KGF at RM1.0175 and get only 9828 units whereas another who paid same amount at RM0.9855 got 10147 units?

Who cares if KGF holds stocks XYZ at the time when you buy it at RM1.0175, and KGF holds stocks ABC at the time I buy it at RM0.9855??

Of course if you insist you dont mind lose 3.2% to him, then that is your own problem, not the problem of my statement's veracity.



i hope next time you read idiots, orang hutan, put you in zoos, lembu etc...you also let him know as well..


I fully agree with you there Xuzen.

One would be silly to say he knows when is the best time to buy and when is the best time to sell.
No body knows, but that does not mean in that case, you buy it higher or you buy it cheaper, it makes no difference, it doesn't matter, so just buy la.

Two different things totally.

I hope more people can see my points there.

You can say you cannot control the weather, i can agree.
But you simply cannot say rain or sunshine it is all the SAME, if you know what i mean....
(this is a lousy example, as rain or shine you may not lose out, unlike buy high or buy low in UT there)


You are missing the point maam. Of course it is meaningless if you put me and yklooi to buy RHB and you go buy Eastspring wanna come and compare with us.......That sounds more like a tin kosong to me, Basics step - ask your self
first -are you comparable there!!

This post has been edited by guy3288: Oct 3 2016, 03:14 PM

Acceptance is the word.
accept that NAV price "matters", at time you buy and again at time you sell.

When you refuse to accept that fact, you would hide under various pretexts such as "invested at the wrong time",
another word of saying NAV price was high.

If that sifu is blind to his own poison, someone tried pointing it out but was ignored
What is TIME, TIMING, ultimately it sinks down to NAV again.

Other pretext used is LUCK-
ultimately it refers NAV price again, luck means he got it cheaper.

more example here, the bottom line in discussion there is NAV price to buy and more units to get
for the same amount of money right?

This post has been edited by guy3288: Oct 3 2016, 06:21 PM

A and B both decided KGF is good and bought RM10,000.

A bought on 28.8.2016 at NAV 0.9855 got 3.2% more units than B who bought
on 29.9.2016 at NAV RM1.0175.

Does it matter to A what stocks KGF held on 28.8.16 when he bought, compared to what
stocks KGF held on 29.9.16 when B bought?

Aren't both of them going to have their rewards from whatever KGF 's profit the same?

Hello maam, you are so far off track! You must read before you reply.

We have already moved on, see Xuzen's post there as the ultimate reply!

We are not talking about must buy 10% cheaper and whatnot!!
We are not asking what factors to consider before we buy, what to buy etc...
We are just saying you buy cheaper you win as simple as that.

This post has been edited by guy3288: Oct 3 2016, 06:28 PM

Reason being i have stirred the hornets "taboo words", NAV, TIME the market etc.........

I salute you for having the courage to say it out loud.

Not that they dont do it like you, only they dare not say it direct ie using those taboo words
or else sure get whacked by the so called sifus.

you can find those whackings regularly whenever some one 'steps' on it.

This post has been edited by guy3288: Oct 4 2016, 09:14 AM

I am disappointed by the imprecise way you quote me.

I dont see how the above can mean to say it is impractical to time the market.

How can i say timing the market is impractical if I support timing the market?

Isn't trying to buy low = timing the market?

Or must it only be buying the LOWEST then only considered
timing the market, yes that is impractical then.

I thought you were one of the few who understood what i was trying to say when i read the ultimate reply from you,
thought we can move on..but now you turn back the clock again......

There is no irony in the following post

Do you not agree they are waiting to buy at lower NAV?

If you can agree "Buy low NAV is better", I am sure you understand it is to make money or push up your IRR.
So if "getting more units per RM" there" is meant to make money and increase your IRR, what is the irony?
To understand it otherwise means you have misunderstood me.

lower NAV by itself is automatically translated into more units for the same amount of money paid.

I thought i have made my self clear with the KGF example..

It would be ridiculous to say, out of the hundreds over UTs there, you go pick that one with lowest NAV and buy it.

What i have been saying all this while is: Once you have decided the UT can be a "winner", you keep an eye on it,see who is buying it at what price, who has topped up further at what price ,observe its NAV fluctuations then you buy la.
You buy low you have a head start compared to those who buy higher, that's all.

And who says this way cannot be done if you want to have more than 1 UT fund in your portfolio.

You just need to do the same for each and every UT fund you target to buy.

You think only you alone surprised meh? me too la!

After buy what is there to regret, lose lose la.
I lost RM6+k in AmCommodities also no cry .How much you lost?


But i thought you are a veteran, surely got at least few years IRR to show already ,no need wait 10 years .
unless you are waiting for your not so nice IRR to "even" out something like that of yklooi's?


No la, if no luck no point keep buying blindly, you only go deeper in red and lose more.
i kena before.

Charity alone tak cukup , you must have some courage also to face your "challenger",
ie get into the ring and "fight" it out by presenting your points and arguments.

What is the point of only knowing how to say few words like lembu, zoo,
put orang utan's brain in your head etc??

It is obvious what you have done so far is just "throwing stones" from the side.....
and when you come into the ring, all you did is just regurgitate some known facts people can read fr books.


How about upgrading yourself a bit, making this discussion ada STANDARD sikit.

Tackle what i said directly,present your points for everyone to assess.

For a start just tackle these 2 simple Qs:


Question (1) --->Does it matter to A what stocks KGF held on 28.8.16 when he bought, compared to what
stocks KGF held on 29.9.16 when B bought?


I am sure everyone knows my answer is NO.

Would you dare answer YES there?


Question (2) ------->Aren't both of them going to have their rewards from whatever KGF 's profit the same?

My answer is YES, you dare say NO is your answer?

That must be the first portfolio i see here with IRR >10%!

It's a pity despite so many so called sifus here, instead of getting the result
from them, it comes from you, one who supports timing the market.


The big headed sifu who is so against your way, how high is his IRR after so many years of experience?

Most people in here clearly steadfastly clinging behind the back of that sifu,
what IRR are they getting?

Ultimately is how much money you made? how high your IRR is, not just how loud you can talk...

This statement revealed your lack of ability to think.
call your self "physician" some more.......malu lah.

if your brain is working/logical, you should know hypocrisy is not a sensible word to use there,
as I did not tell others not to something that i did (it) myself.
I do market timing, i tell others, yes go ahead and do it.

if you have a bone to pick with me, poke at the right spot dont just tickle me.



you may be a good boot licker in buttering up your sifus.
but if you dont know how to use your brain, and simply shoot from your hips,
you may be shooting at your sifus rather than at me.

Go read what you say in red.

Who champions in throwing insults?
Who back it up with calculations?
Who is proven mathematically correct? your sifu??





i have shown my portfolio already. dont want to aggravate that butthurt Avangelice more.



I fully agree with you there.
Why must have hard and fast rule?

As long as you can make money.
But IRR* can tell you how good is good.
ROI no use la, if time no taken in it.

Yes then can forget about low NAV and high NAV
when you already have high IRR!




*At least 3 years period, the longer the more indicative it is.

the 2 comments above show a very positive attitude towards money(investment)

everything starts from small, no one can become BIG suddenly, out from no where.

Trouble is many only start to look when that amount is big (to them), when small they ignore, dont bother,
they look down on it.

That's why we hear people say, "aiya why bother that small amount, that is not even enough for my one go at the pub... etc..."

Truth is if you have such a habit of not knowing how to "value" your money ( starting at small amount),
you are likely to continue your habit the same when you grow bigger. Next time you become a miilionaire, you would say, aiya what is RM5000, nothing lah, 0.5% only ma......the same.

To me, every little extra in % counts, even just 0.5% more. When your amount is RM10,000 that RM50 may not seem big. But it is not the amount, it is the way you look at it that matters.

SO yes, i support you 2 guys!

This post has been edited by guy3288: Oct 8 2016, 02:52 PM

Every one also wants the biggest bang for their money, those who cant do it have to settle for less,
fair and square




From RM1.00 you push it up to RM10, that is a 900% increase!
You are 'diluting' the effect of the difference many times.
how many years needed to get that 900%? diluting it more.
Start with only RM100k can become a millionaire will take how long?


missed opportunity aside, you may think the difference is only RM20k. Even RM20k is significant difference to me. But you have underestimated that difference-how many years to reach RM1M?, loss from opportunity cost, RM20k today might be RM80k later.



How many UT funds have NAV price going up straight line without fluctuations that if we dont buy,
we would miss it ...............?



some also implied over-analysing the SD, Sharpe etc is like cherry picking too, so no need hard and fast rule so to speak.

Put aside missed opportunity, a 0.5% difference is the same be it in FD, UT or stocks. For every 1 million invested you
can lose out RM5000 for it

This post has been edited by guy3288: Oct 9 2016, 12:45 AM

That kind of reasoning from a doctor is really .......

The very purpose people buy UT is to make more than FD returns.
Who buy UT and dont mind lower return than FD rate ,just for the fun of having "control" of money?
What for, having control and lose???

Ultimately if you dont make more than 6-7% returns, why so silly waste time and effort
when you can just sit back?

Just for the sake of being able to "play play" and "control" how you play that money?
then you better go genting.


To lament that early upliftment of FD will cause you to lose return WITHOUT knowing
that urgent sell of UT is even worse, just show how much you can think.
Doing the same for UT,not only you may lose returns, you may even lose your capital !


And the point on OPR movements as a con for FD is again an unthinking blabber.
Talking about unpredictability, UT is many times worse than FD if you just pause and think first!!

I have FD paying me 4.7% right till 2018.
So tell me how can your OPR con factor affect me till then?

Your reasoning is far inferior to that of Ram, mind you, he is only a student!

And what kind of rubbish is that to say FD is small car and UT is ferrari?
Especially when your ferrari can produce only 3-4%
and my small car gives me fixed 4.7% return.
Dont just keep thinking about your car, for once look into the mirror to see that driver.

the moderator is not sleeping. he/she has done his/her job by removing pinky 's bulying post yet again.
That guy does not seem to learn, all he can do is simply yelling around whenever he wakes up.......
hoping for people to support his bruised ego.....sigh.

People judge you by how you present your idea and how logical your belief is, not on how loud you can say the four letter words!

And be reminded this is a public forumn, not your private room.
so please dont embarass your so called "DOCTOR" status further.

And for once please admit you are just a diploma holder,
a paramedic and NOT a doctor.

Yes, you can always skip reading any post you dont like, why bother?

This post has been edited by guy3288: Oct 16 2016, 12:56 PM