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 AV Receivers/ Speakers/ Subwoofers, Discussion & Opinion

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dwRK
post May 14 2017, 06:40 PM

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QUOTE(Senforr @ May 14 2017, 05:36 PM)
That is what I thought, but everywhere in LYN says if getting soundbar around 2k, AVR at that price range with 2.1 system is WAAAAAAAAAAAYYY better.

So, now I am confused, again. :confused:
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IMHO...

Waste of money getting soundbar.

Waste of money getting AVR if not going for surround sound.

Just get a pair of good active speakers.
dwRK
post Jun 18 2017, 03:17 PM

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QUOTE(VeeJay @ Jun 18 2017, 01:17 PM)
Folks, Im in the mist of helping a cousin setting up his AV room 12X14ft ot ideal but thats what he has.

Right, looking at Denon avr-x2300w or 1300; any thoughts on it or its over kill?
https://www.whathifi.com/denon/avr-x2300w/review

For viewing looking at Projector

And obviously needs speaker as well thinking on 5.1 would do since the room is small

Appreciate your feedback...its been a while I worked on these and out of touch with latest technology and offerings...Cheers
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Money no object right?
dwRK
post Jun 18 2017, 04:19 PM

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QUOTE(VeeJay @ Jun 18 2017, 03:18 PM)
yup...he set around 20K i think...since the room is small, dont want overkill as well..lol...its like getting a Porsche and driving 2km weekend
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Cost no object I'm thinking 70-100K... :sweats: laugh.gif

I guess he's not demanding...so maybe just a good simple budget system...20k is very doable...
dwRK
post Jul 6 2017, 07:42 PM

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QUOTE(ozak @ Jul 6 2017, 07:12 PM)
Hang the rear speaker from the ceiling is not the problem. Problem is the wiring. Fly across to behind is ugly, messy and costly.

I m using JBL CS100 for rear. Front PSB B5, center C4 and yamaha sub YST SW315. Power by Yamaha AV RX-V673. A small range surround. blush.gif
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There are wireless rear speaker kits...the transmitter takes speaker level input...so no issue really...

Good luck
dwRK
post Jul 8 2017, 12:42 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Jul 7 2017, 11:13 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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In reality, you would normalize loudness for crossover matching...and since SB has a more gentle sub-20hz roll-off will always be louder at the low end...

So if you don't max it to concert level thunder & lightning loud...the SB is typically good enough for most people and room size...

The PB gets loud with less effort...the SB gets to go lower...which is better depends what you want it for...

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jul 8 2017, 12:45 PM
dwRK
post Jul 8 2017, 02:17 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Jul 8 2017, 01:17 PM)
That's some generalization there though. Maybe in Asian countries people are more inclined to smaller subs due to room size being significantly smaller than those in the west.

There is no such thing as too much bass, it's all the matter of balancing the entire chain.

I had a pair of SB1000 before I upgraded it to a pair of SB2000, the former had very little output below 19hz. The SB2000 has authoritative output down to 16hz and I could actually measure them down to around 12hz. This is all in the same exact room, same exact sub location. It's simply the limit of the SB1000 really.
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Sure...you need some level of reserves in terms of both power and frequency... a lot of folks just don't know what is required and how to integrate with their room...

And of course there is such a thing as too much bass...behold my kitchen window... lol...
user posted image

Well you and I know that with enough power you can overcome some room physics....lol...that's what you are doing with SB2000 vs SB1000... BTW, I have a PB1000, SB2000, and two other subs smile.gif ...

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jul 8 2017, 02:24 PM
dwRK
post Jul 8 2017, 05:19 PM

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QUOTE(jovigrunge @ Jul 8 2017, 02:32 PM)
Holy crap, is that your window? Come to think of it, it is debatable about "too much bass." theory.  hmm.gif

Many years ago, I placed my 4 feet aquarium filled with an Arowana Golden Blue Base fish (R.I.P  cry.gif ) next to my HT set. The fish died but of course it's not becoz of the subwoofer  laugh.gif  but my point is the feeling of fear my aquarium will someday crack was always there especially with all the crazy sound + bass surrounding the area.

sad.gif
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Yup...my window... perhaps it has some flaws, the bass just pushes it over...

Realistically you need some headroom with power & LFE...so the adage "can't have too much bass" is true...that's what it means...you can always tune it down, but if you don't have enough you'll be "stuck"... like SSJBen with his SB1000 until he upgraded...

So my advice is to evaluate your room and it's response and then decide how loud and how low you wanna go, then only find the sub to match it... remember also two subs is "better" than one, so sometimes 2x RM1.6~1.8k may be better than 1x RM4K sub for some people and their needs...

As for risk of damage... a lot can be managed, others just have to try your luck lor... biggrin.gif

PS... don't go max power immediately... yes I know it's hard to control the urge biggrin.gif... crank it up slowly and observe what is shaking and manage...

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jul 9 2017, 09:31 AM
dwRK
post Jul 9 2017, 09:23 AM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Jul 9 2017, 01:19 AM)
Agreed.  thumbup.gif
Aha! Cracked window! Signs of amazing bass. tongue.gif

I'm potentially adding another SB2000 for nearfield duties. As it is currently, my spine already rumbles in pretty much every bass-heavy content but I want my entire body to feel the jolt. If space was a lesser issue, I'd be having multiple PSA V1500 subs.
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Hmmm...OK my new saying..."you can't have enough bass until something breaks"... lol...

Ya...you can add bass shakers to shake your booty...but nothing compares to the pressure waves that hit you head to toe like you get front row in rock concerts and jazz bars...

I'd try moving the twins 2-3ft in front, like put it under a coffee table...you get what I'm saying? That would be bone shattering awesome...Lol...

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jul 9 2017, 12:02 PM
dwRK
post Jul 9 2017, 05:48 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Jul 9 2017, 04:25 PM)
I've tried a couple of bass transducers (buttkickers) and while they fill the 5hz-15hz spectrum pretty well, they just can't meld very well with the rest of my system. I've spent days tinkering with them, despite having a minidsp and using most of its features. Just can't eliminate the odd decay time of the buttkickers vs a sub. There's definitely a small but noticeable sense of void, if you get what I mean.

Both my SB2000's are diagonally placed currently, which are the best locations in my room. I get just enough boundary gain without anything sounding too excessive.

Thank goodness my room has no windows to worry about though... tongue.gif
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With nearfield listening...you hear more from the speakers, less of the room...generally a good thing. You half the distance, double the power...another good thing.

You don't need a 3rd SB2000 for nearfield, just use the twins...try it smile.gif You won't need room gains anymore... laugh.gif

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jul 9 2017, 05:53 PM
dwRK
post Dec 21 2020, 05:34 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Dec 21 2020, 03:09 PM)
The lower the frequency you go, the longer the wavelengths are and the worst it gets for a small square shaped room.

So really, I think you should look into getting multiple subs instead of 1 big one. In this case dual SB1000s (smaller sealed vs a single ported) would be a much better than a single PB1000.
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small room won't support the lower freq...so is really non issue beyond the 14ft modes...

yes for 2 small subs...beyond that need sub eq
dwRK
post Dec 21 2020, 05:36 PM

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QUOTE(mtgh @ Dec 21 2020, 11:41 AM)
Thanks ben for the reply.

For 14x14x9(ht) feet room, if want to use 1 sub only
will the pb1000 be adequate or need pb2000

Thanks
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your 14*14 is all brick wall or some of it partition?
dwRK
post Dec 21 2020, 07:06 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Dec 21 2020, 05:56 PM)
No, the smaller the room, the bigger the boundary gain. SBIR also becomes more tricky to deal with due to space constrains. It is a big issue.
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agree with the boundary gain and SBIR problems...

you said..."The lower the frequency you go, the longer the wavelengths are and the worst it gets for a small square shaped room."... I'm just thinking 14' can support down to about 40hz...the room can't create any standing waves below 40hz...hence my simplistic comment
dwRK
post Dec 22 2020, 08:26 AM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Dec 21 2020, 07:47 PM)
What? No, you're misunderstanding what I was saying.
Every frequency has a wavelength, it doesn't matter what the size of your room is because that wavelength is pre-determined. The only place where a wavelength does not matter is in space.

There is no specific "support" for a frequency on any given room size. A room will ALWAYS create standing waves and those standing waves are doubled when the walls are equidistant, of which then the SPL is amplified by the gain of a boundary. So to say that a 14x14 ft room will not create any standing waves below 40hz is wrong, in fact it gets worse. A 20hz wavelength for example is 56 ft! Please show me a home that has a room size length of 56 ft.
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let's start with boundary condition, being the 14ft wall to wall distance... the lowest natural 1st order harmonic freq that a wavelength can bounce back and forth and create standing wave is about 40hz... the room will have 2nd, 3rd, 4th...nth harmonics at higher freq... the room cannot "support" any resonant freq below 40hz because this will violate physics... can the room have say 20hz?...yes it can but it won't resonate between the wall and the spl will be very low... using your 20hz example, a 56ft wavelength cannot "fit" within a 14ft room, it will exist as a single-pass pressure wave but won't resonate and create standing waves... this is what I meant by "support"

here is a calculator on room modes... when you plug in his room dimensions... the calculator does not show any resonant freq below 1st order 40hz... http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-roommodes.htm


a bit extra for others not related to our discussion...

how to get 20hz in a small room?... you need power, lots of it, because there is no room/boundary gain from resonant... this is again contrary to instinct... the roll-off freq below 40hz is very very steep, so much power is needed to bring the lower freq up to say -6db or -3db... you need to double the power for every 3db increase in calculated/measured response...and you need much much more to double the loudness/intensity... a dual sub will help in this respect

it talks about it here... http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-le...%20is%20doubled
dwRK
post Dec 22 2020, 08:38 AM

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QUOTE(mtgh @ Dec 22 2020, 01:33 AM)
80 %  brickwall  and 25% window
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thanks. reason I ask is I've seen ppl built their hifi or ht "room" within a bigger hall by partitioning... the lower registers will actually resonate between the bigger hall and not within the smaller partition
dwRK
post Dec 23 2020, 07:30 PM

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QUOTE(SSJBen @ Dec 23 2020, 06:00 PM)
Yes I'm well aware of all that, but in practice that's really not how it goes.

I could show you that in my room, which is 15ft in length has usable output down to 16hz, at over 95db.
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no dispute... I even mentioned that in my 1st and 3rd para...

This post has been edited by dwRK: Dec 24 2020, 10:08 AM
dwRK
post Jan 2 2021, 01:39 PM

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QUOTE(mtgh @ Jan 1 2021, 09:21 AM)
I am a getting  very good price for dali ef12 . What is this sub stack again svs sb1000
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sb1000 will give you some quality bass...

dali is fine for HT to shake some furniture and windows... can give it a try, and sell it off if not happy... imho not good for music if you have a demanding ear...
dwRK
post Jan 2 2021, 07:36 PM

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QUOTE(kevinlim001 @ Jan 2 2021, 02:30 PM)
the amplifier of svs sb1000 is more powerful than dali's (300w vs 170w) and the frequency range also wider as compare to dali (24-260 vs 28-190 hz).. svs also having a smaller cabinet size even with the same driver size.
also comparing the frequency response graph (in dali whitepaper - i dont understand the purpose of the graph with no frequency marking on X axis  doh.gif ).. Dali can play louder and at a unknown frequency peaked (could be 80hz/100hz - i m not sure) and start rolling off after that.. meanwhile svs still able to maintain its high frequency response at wider range before roll off observed after 200hz.
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Dali is louder so 170w is plenty...

anyways the upper hf is not so important since we'd be trying to cut off around 50-60hz, at most 80hz...

what is important is the smooth freq response, and the slower low freq roll off for sb1000...where it can probably go down to 21~22 hz in room, whereas the Dali maybe only 27 hz because of the steep 4th order slope

however what is not apparent is sealed boxes have better rhythm n pace which is very important not only for music, but transients too in movies although people usually are ignorant or ill-informed..so long as bass shakes their butts they are happy

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 2 2021, 10:26 PM
dwRK
post Jan 4 2021, 11:32 AM

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QUOTE(kevinlim001 @ Jan 4 2021, 08:37 AM)
plenty or not i m not sure.. you gonna try and let us know  laugh.gif like i said the frequency response vs spl provided by the manufacturer doesn't even have proper indicator for us to judge.
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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currently 4 subs in the house... wifey will divorce if i try more laugh.gif eons ago my old rel strata only 60w and was enough... but nowadays watts is cheap and ht more demanding... go demo to find out lor, no need to guess enough or not...

the dali chart, what i can see it starts at 20hz, it has a peak bump just before 40hz that's the port tuning... it doesn't look like it has any dsp and if such, the freq resp is actually ok... svs uses dsp so obviously flatter and more extended...

imho main issue is below 40hz, dali output drops quite a lot... svs output remains flat to around 28hz... mtgh's 14ft room needs as much output he can get below 40hz

QUOTE
hf cut off depends on fronts and avr.. i said 80hz-120hz is fair unless u got a very capable front and strong avr... the lower frequency you send to your front the more power needs to delivered from AVR.
front speakers with a small 4.5" driver is flat to ~85hz in a tiny seal box, and ~70hz in a tiny ported box...a normal bookshelf goes down to ~50 hz easy... that's why i say sub with wide freq resp as shown by svs up to 260hz, this spec is not important because we'd be rolling that off way early already......the wide range looks good on paper and good for marketing

QUOTE
Of cos, mtgh has some time and money he can always buy and try where if he is not happy he can sell it off like what you said..

he did says he's got a very good deal... wink.gif like i said, dali will shake butts, svs will have more quality bass and shake butts too... biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 4 2021, 12:45 PM
dwRK
post Jan 4 2021, 03:07 PM

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QUOTE(kevinlim001 @ Jan 4 2021, 02:10 PM)
you own 4 dali subs? on the chart, how you can tell it actually starts from 20hz?  :confused: i read nothing..i do guessing over the graph rclxub.gif

my front can do 40hz but when i drop the crossover to 60hz i m losing the details also.. so i prefer my sub to do the hard work instead.. maybe mtgh is having excellence front like you do he can put the cross over as low as you did  laugh.gif
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pb1000, sb2000...and 2 others wink.gif no dali... lol

assume they follow the normal log scale, then the peak ~40hz line, and 100hz line, lined up...so going left you get 20hz... spacing looks right too so I'm quite confident

I'm old school so no cutoff to speakers, only tweak subs... but hey, whatever works man...
dwRK
post Jan 4 2021, 03:31 PM

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QUOTE(sonerin @ Jan 4 2021, 02:22 PM)
Sometimes all this spec are on paper only. Is best to audition if possible.
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yeah... I've come across my fair share of lifeless systems... have already said go demo to find out...

we just having an academic discussion on crossover freq and freq extension looking at the charts... wink.gif

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 4 2021, 03:33 PM

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