That depends on personal opinions, keyboard/piano is harder to master (Piano are much much more powerful than the guitar)... Anyway, to start, yes, is very easy... and keyboard and piano are not much different except the key touch and some other minor differences, the way to play is the same, just the feel and touch is different.

To learn the piano or keyboard, it's better to buy a piano/digital piano because it will actually train your fingers and you'll actually learn faster... the sound is also very important, you'll be amazed how well you can capture the tunes/play better when the sounds are better... In a Piano/Digital Piano, the sounds are usually better than the keyboard.

I started with a 61-keys keyboard, that time I don't know much about these stuffs, I just wanna get something cheap for my lessons... later I found out the keys are not enough, the sounds are not satisfying, when I played on the digital piano in during the lessons, I can't play so well even tough I've practice enough, and catching the melody/etc is much easier when in the lesson with digital piano... the feel is very different... After I bought the digital piano, I improve so much and so fast, and the moment I touch back my keyboard, I feel it's so plastic and feels like a toy...

Anyway, as for the classes, I suggest you go for the "PLAY BY EAR" course... They have 3 levels in total and by the time you finish LEVEL 1, you're approximately Grade 5 of normal Piano lessons... There's only 20 lessons in LEVEL 1, which would take up to 6 months (or you can take it easy with 2 lessons each month up to 1 year). Actually this is NOT just learning the piano, it's learning THE ART OF MAKING MUSIC using the piano. You DON'T actually learn NOTES, you learn how to listen to a song, play it by ear, learn how to catch/build the chords, create your own style, etc... What do they mean by art of making music? In normal piano lessons, you're actually learning HOW TO play the piano and master it, in this, you're actually learning how to create music and also learning the piano since you're using it... which means, you can apply the theory/knowledge you learn on almost every instrument, you just need to know HOW to play them.

I'm still a student, currently undergoing Level 2, and I still can't read notes... but so far, I'm able to play the songs I want by ear and create the chords from the melody itself, some may not 100% accurate to the song but some chords are NOT fixed and you can also play the song very differently depending on the styles you apply.

Last time before I took the lessons, I was able to catch the melody by hearing to a song, but never understand what is a chord or the left hand part, I took up this lessons cause it's "PLAY BY EAR". If you can play by ear naturally, you should check out this course. One thing about this course is... it's a fast course, which means, you have to really work for it and train,... unless you are very familiar with the piano/keyboard....

Check:
http://www.playbyear.com.my
You call up to check for their presentation, they have students over 80 years of age as well... there's even a lady, forgot who is that, some datin I think, completed and graduated from Level 2 of the course... They even have blind students. On November last year, they have the blind students showing off on stage. The fees I would say it's very cheap since you don't need long time to learn... For each level is 2K+...

I would not suggest you getting a keyboard actually, but if you insist on getting one, try to get at least 76-keys, it shouldn't cost more than 2K for a decent one anyway. Since you have more budget, you should check out 88-keys Digital Piano with Weigthed Keys. Go test those keyboards/pianos before you buy to make sure you like how it feels/the touch and the sounds... Also, do check for the functions/rythms/etc.. which you require. (For "Play By Ear", the rythmn is quite important or very, but I never really used it cause my Level 1 "Coach" (that's what they call) never use it.).

If you wanna check more on digital pianos and keyboard, you can check Roland US website, but their instruments are NOT cheap...
http://www.rolandus.com
Navigate to each product, usually you will see there're videos for it and you can see what it can do. For Digital Piano, you can check out the HP series or KR Series, the KR Series is more expensive and there're tons of videos for it. For Keyboards, you can check out the Arranger series, check out EXR series, those are great Arranger Keyboards but they're expensive and there's only 1 or 2 videos (There's a cheap model, around 3K, I forgot the model name, it's quite new and has lotsa features too...). Finally, I personally like the STAGE PIANO RD-700SX, check out the videos... the cheaper version would be RD-300SX but it's quite a big difference for me.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting you to buy Roland since you're budget is low, just informing you about the website as it provides tons of videos/demos on the products, which other makes really lacks... If you're looking for latest features, etc... you can check Casio, it's very cheap and very up to date, just check their website and you can find their piano/keyboard have a lot of features, and they usually have learning functions too...

For sounds and touch/feel, you should try them out yourself, everyone has their own opinions on each make.

Lastly, good luck and all the best!

Completed level 2 but not up to level 2 standard I suppose cause can't play that well (comparing to what they show me what I'll achieve after Level 2), need more practice and fingering... In level 2, it's more about bass, accompaniments and playing styles (e.g. latin, jazz, etc). Biggest problem is to learn to freely control both hands,... also the legs for the sustain.

For level 3, it's more advance and harder to play, so I think I should get very used to the piano first and also good 2 hand coordination before I move on, level 3 is now split into 2 level, so there's 40 classes.

Anyway, the most important thing is, being able to listen to a song, and create (get the melody. get/create the chords) and play it on the piano. You learn to listen and feel the song and play it instead of playing by reading notes. You should already learn that in Level 1.

I attend the one @ subang, the last 2 classes they shifted to USJ Taipan,... very jam.... =O and no parking...

The fees as I know of is a one time payment, but I heard some student have some different arrangement on the payments.

As for the schedule, you are free to arrange with your teacher (they're called Music Coach instead, because they're like a coaching, guiding you). For Level 1 and Level 2, there're 20 classes for each level, for Level 3, it's split into 2 sub-levels, 20 classes each, total 40 classes. For each Level, you have 1 year to complete, so you can do it slowly or fast, it's up to you, most importantly, you can keep up and have enough practice. If you're already very familiar with the keyboard/piano, then you should be able to progress very fast.

Per level (which is 1 year, but actually 20 classes).... If per month, I straight open my own! =P
It's not exactly 2k, it's 2k++, not sure about the exact amount, but if you divide it, its roughly 100++ per class, since there's 20 classes. By the way, there's only 3 levels for the normal classes, there're other types of piano classes towards profesional playing. Basically, level 1 is good enough for playing for fun/hobby. Level 2 you'll learn about accompaniments (backups), different playing styles (jazz, latin, etc) which is very tough, especially to me, requires very good 2 hand coordination, timing and accuracy (it'll be beneficial/easier if you can play the keyboard/piano well). Level 3 I'm not exactly sure, but it's more advanced, such as, how to add additional chords/keys to make the song more alive, filling-in those "missing" part of a song, etc...

Hope the info is clear, for more information you can visit the website or call up for inquiry:
http://www.playbyear.com.my

That's why their called coach, they're guiding you... But there's *money back guarantee*, of course, as usual terms and conditions apply, where if they feel you really have no musical talent (you already tried and follow exactly), then you get refund within few classes.

Anyway, it also depends on the music coach, they should help and guide you well and some good one might give extra classes or make sure you understand and get it correct. In latter classes of the 20 classes, it might get tough for few topics and 45 minutes isn't enough since you'll be performing previous lessons in the first few minutes. So, it's up to the music coach if they're willing to give some extra time required is necessary.

Lastly, the students should work hard and practice as well, especially those who have no piano/keyboard background and are struggling to even play the piano, so obviously they'll be slow.. It's not like conventiona piano lesson where you spend a few classes just to play the few note, etc... In play by ear, in the first lesson you're already learning music. There're exercises like scales which requires the student to practice by their own... So for beginners, I would suggest not to rush it, maybe 2 weeks per classes, and take to time to practice, 1-2 hour per day, more if possible or the day you're more free. 1-2 hour may seem very long, but when you're hooked to the piano, it's really very short.

By the way, for each level, you don't just learn the songs provided, you're also allow to choose your own song to play, and the coach will guide you how to create the song completely by ear, or how to create the chords with just the melody. They will also let you create your own style of playing the song instead of following the original.

In play by ear 2, you'll learn different styles (Jazz, Latin), which you will APPLY it to any suitable song. You're not just learning to play jazz/latin/etc song, but also how to convert/apply those style to any suitable song. But, it's really tough, cause most of these styles emphasizes on the bass, your left hand will be playing the bass, while your right hand will be playing the melody, you'll need good 2 hand coordination.

Haha, that's one funny quote,... how old are you btw?

Anyway, do you know that normal piano lessons are the "Classical" music path? You're learning classical music, and you're spending way too much time on learning many unnecessary or simple things, some music school will shorten those, etc.

Well, my point is, there's always MANY ways to do things including learning, this is NOT rushing, that's why I say, you can take it slow, two weeks per class, heck you can adjust yourself, for easier lessons, you might only need little practice. Do you think what you're learning in school now is NOT simplified version? We're humans and we're always moving forward and advancing and simplifiying our life, make learning faster, etc... Be open and try to differentiate between "short-cut" path and simplified path... Many people can't accept these simplified or easier learning methods by simply accusing them as short-cut, etc...

Anyway, if you've been a teacher or teach before, any subject, you should know you can either teach the old traditional way, which usually takes a very long time, or you can find ways to make your student understand faster, etc.

For the "Play By Ear", there're teaching you creating music by your feeling and ear using the piano, the natural way, music is NOT paper, is your feeling and hearing... It's simply teaches you to understand what is music, how to create music, etc... You usually don't learn or understand it in conventional piano classes untill after Grade 5 mostly...

Before you judge something, try to understand what it does and how it works, this course is very straightforward and easy to understand, even old people can pickup easily, the oldest student if I'm not wrong is 80+, and got one Datin completed Level 2, fyi. Kids understand and can create and play the piano really really well within 2 years of classes usually (for Kids, they have 40 classes per level due to more attention needed). It's simply the same theory and technique when you self-learn, the founder/creator of this "Play By Ear" is a self-taught musician, he created all these simplified methods (e.g. formula for calculating MAJOR chords = R+4+3) and techniques, and he can play up to 9 instruments if I'm not wrong.

By the way, there're NOT just "Play By Ear", there're so many simplified courses out there on the internet, and it's not something NEW anyway. But if you plan to learn classical, then you're adviced to follow the conventional piano classes which will take years... Classical is a slow and tough path, if you can keep up and stay it's good, but don't one day say, "this is not what I wanted"... which happens to many who don't understand before taking up the courses, which is one major reason why they drop out of piano classes.

Try looking up Scott Houston "The Piano Guy", he has one book and video which teach you the simple methods of learning the piano... In the video, he also ask the question "Who wants to learn to play songs like the latest pop songs, christmas songs, etc?" and "Who wants to learn the classical music?"... obviously you know the results, and he also mentioned that many people didn't understand what the conventional piano lessons does and goes for it, and they're thrown book by book, playing "DO RE MI" for a few classes, and they can't even play the song they wanted after a long period of time... Watch the video, it's interesting and funny.. He also mentioned "Lead Sheet" (some called it fake sheet because they thought it's fake), if you don't know what it is, it's simply a song sheet without the bass clef, which many conventional piano players got confused and cannot play... In simplified methods, usually, they're using Lead Sheet mainly because they understand how music works, they can even come up with chords given the melody. For me, one drawback is I didn't learn to read notes, so I can't read notes, but even if I can, I can sight play, so this is one drawback/weakness with this course but doesn't mean one cannot learns it, just that I don't bother learning sight-playing as I don't use notes/sheet. I'm not really can't read notes, I know the "FACE" thingy, but I can't read it as fast. For notes/sheet usually I'll use to double-check for whether I got the correct chords, but you have to understand also that not all chords are fixed. I don't you don't take this as boasting, just sharing the information of what you can achieve from these courses, in fact, I'm considered not so good at it, if you compare it with the music coach, they can easily catch the chords and very fast, very impressive to even see. And don't say "because they're the teacher/music coach ma", most of them were students, many start from 0 or beginning, so some might only be few years or more exprience with the piano. Like my Level 2 music coach, which is only about 3 years in piano, but can play extremely well.

Lastly, altough all this *might* sound interesting and/or easy and intimidating... it's still important to understand and know that, which I've mentioned, you're required to work hard and practice as well and don't rush it... If you need more time to practice, do so,... it's important that you understand and can keep up... Also, it does not mean no students will drop out / lost interest from these course, just less and depends on whether they know what they wanted and willing to work for it... For normal piano classes, you need to work hard as well, doesn't mean for normal it's slower then you can take it easy...



This post has been edited by Andy214: Jul 18 2007, 10:31 AM

As long as the person appreciates Classical, doesn't really matter of age but usually older people would like Classical. As for old, usually, conventional piano classes don't encourage old people to take up because it's hard to teach, requires patience, time, etc. and most older people drop out, or drop out as they get older.

Just trying to clear the thing about "rushing" or "short-cut" issue. Anyway, of course, we hope everyone gets to learn what they want and understand what each course provide/does, etc.

I hope your impressive don't get you over rate the course or puts too high expectation or anything, because as I mentioned, it also requires hard work and commitment... Usually they'll show you what you'll achieve after the completed the course (each level), so for me, I know I'm quite weak in Level 2 due to my 2 hand coordination problem mainly.

As for the classes, you can choose when you want to attend, how often, etc... As long as you completed the course within 1 year (each Level)... Heck, if you're really good, you can do it as fast as you can, but that's if you're already very familiar with the piano, maybe a grade 5 above from conventional piano classes... by taking up this course, it's simply opening the door / completing the puzzle of the years of piano classes... As I mentioned, it's advice that you do enough practice and understand before you go on for the next class, else you drop behind further and further... Some classes are pretty easy and straight forward, so you might wanna do it faster (arrange for class the following week), etc.

As for the fees, it's by classes, but it's a one time full payment... I think you can arrange for part payment, but you have to discuss with them, probably it'll be a little more expensive than one time payment.

Yes, it's a 45 minutes per session, hardly theory, you just listen to the music, and play the piano usually.

Lastly, good luck and all the best for your classes if you're deciding to sign up!

I'm surprise you're YOUNG, and most importantly, you ARE a music TEACHER.

As for classical music is the basic of everything, it's also everything. But, do you READ my post carefully? Not EVERYONE wants to learn classical music, do you understand WHAT people WANTS, instead of WHAT you WANT them to WANT? Do you know that only very very little people loves classical? That's a fact you have to accept, and that's the BIG dilemma in piano lessons.

Offending? Why? Because I said I can't create chord by the melody? Please, I'm not referring to composing or creating some BIG scores or something... I learn for fun and hobbies, I just want to play the tune on the piano for the songs I liked, especially when I hears it, I'm tempted to play it on the piano. And NO, I don't even think of performing to show off, please don't simply make any judgement. I'm simply sharing what the course is able to provide for those interested, you get my point? Many people have the / share the same toughs and feeling, they just want to be able play the song they like on the piano.

And I never said classical is not good, if you read carefully, it's good if the person have the interest, initiative, etc... You learned a lot but it's also very tough, I've mentioned it before. But it might not necessarily be what a person wants. And by the way, even those simplified courses do they you that. They can be open and accept the reality, why can't classical people? Is it so hard to accept there're simplified ways for people to learn and that you've spend so much, etc? Music is meant to be shared, NOT I suffered this much, so everyone have to, that way, nothing can advance... most (if not all) things we learn now are simplified (if you EVEN know), it shortenstime for what we need to learn/master, also in production/research/etc.

Also, what I meant by creating chords is, if you understand the basic/how music works/is created, you should know, music are based on chords, every key of a song has a set of chords and the melody will go with a single chord (fixed) or multiple (not fixed). If you ever compose song, you should know how it works, what we learn is based on that theory.


Well, I never said it's not hard... read... read... read...

And AGAIN, don't simply make judgement, I never said speed make someone good... whoa... you're really making thing up... They're manyn things to playing, not just speed... In fact, if you ever saw my comment on you tube, I comment that they're playing too fast, no/not enough emotions, too loud no balance in volume), etc...

What does IF you can play this piece, todays music would be easy got to do with what people wants? How long does a person need to reach the level of being able to play Fur Elise smoothly? Yes, it's a great music, even for people who don't like classical genre songs would like the song perticularly, so does for a few classical which are really nice, but IF they don't like other classical song, they're simply going down a path they don't know were they're going, what they're doing, confused, stressed, and finally give up and drop out. Worst, never touch the piano again, phobia. Do you know how many piano students got phobia of the piano?

You gotta be kidding? Brainwash marketing stratgy? Using CHALLENGE word so that people would learn classical EVEN if they're not interested andhighly possible to drop out and blame you for them spending years and thousands for the course?

Whoa whoa.... again, making things up? Who ever said want to learn to play music to get girls? Whoa... repeat... most of us wants to play the piano because usually we hear a song, we wants to play it on the piano, express it, etc... Moreover, how often do you think you can show off to girls you can play the piano, it's not a guitar where you can carry around. You're really made a funny statement, which is very "old school"...

Why not? By saying simplified course are rushing is a statement without reading my post carefully and making judgements by referring to "able to learn fast", etc...

AGAIN, most if not all, that we're learning now are simplified... We learn simplifed formula which people invented so we can do things easier, faster, etc... That's very obvious in maths,... but if you think more widely, it's everywhere, science, technology, etc...

Did you read carefully? The simple I mentioned refers to the course, they simplified the course NOT the song. As I mentioned, music is about feeling and hearing, NOT paper. These short course sees through that and approach music teaching using it.


You're so wrong... Music school shorten it because there're unnecessary for those who can pickup fast, instead of following the syllabus, even if they've mastered it early. One is called FOLLOW blindly, another flexible.

You have no right to judge a person has no passionate nor does I have the right to judge you, especially since we don't know each other, please do not simply judge that.

Obviously by saying "simplifing our life andbeing lazy, make learning faster equals to lazy-ness, etc, etc... " shows erm... how shallow, sorry, you are... as I mentioned, AGAIN, most IF not all that we LEARN are SIMPLIFIED... we learns maths the easier way, science the easier way, life improves, we have more advance technology cars/gadgets/etc..., because we humans always find ways to make life easier, simple, etc... As I've mentioned, if you WIDEN you views, you should understand such simple terminology/theory.

Also, it does not means when you simplfies something, you get to be lazy. That's simply... oohhh,... don't know what to say... if you're thinking like that you're... never mind... imagine, when a work need to be done in 8 hours, but you found ways to make it done in 1 hour... you mean you're gonaa be lazy after that? Cmon', you get do so much with the 7 hours left, it's up to the person.

Read above...

If you don't prefer simplified methods, go learn the olden days maths, olden days science, etc... but it's still simplfied anyway....


OK, how long do you need to reach Grade 5?

As for practice, it's not just for classical, if you read my post carefully, I also highlighed that those simplfied courses requires practice as well. Bascially, practice is always the most important thing in most of the things we do.

You obviously don't understand WHAT people wants, and WHAT you WANT them to want... Try to understand people in their shoe using THEIR feeling, personality, etc.. not YOURS... Like me, I just want to play the song I like on the piano, express it in my own ways, etc... and that doesn't mean we don't revise, improve... You SHOULD understand with INTEREST, we will improve, revise ourself because we wants to get the satisfaction... For thos ewho have NO INTEREST, they will NOT have the heart, passion, and eventually just doing it because they NEED to.

LOVE The thing first, you should review this again...

You're saying as if we wants to perform or be famous. WE, me, particularly plays for fun and hobby, so does many. And of course, if we can't do it, we wouldn't agree, that SIMPLE.

As for the music sheet thing,... AGAIN, MUSIC is NOT paper, that SIMPLE. In Language, you have WRITTEN communication. Before that, go figure why there's music notes.

OOh, again, another proof you didn't read my post carefully, or you've mistaken with other people post,... someone mentioned classical is for OLDER people. I REPLIED and mentioned, it's not a matter of AGE, READ CAREFULLY, quit misjudge me... I DID mentioned, usually older people would love classical, but did not specifically mentioned HOW old did I anyway?

What's slow for 1 year? you mean "Play By Ear" course? The 1 years is about Grade 5 already, fyi.

FINALLY, you get my point. I've mentioned many times, it's for people who just WANTS to learn and play the music they WANT.

I'm much more older than you, let just use this quote "Old enough to know what death looks like". It may sound childish/immature or whatever but what the heck...

I learn piano because I love to play the song I like on the piano, especially when/after I listened to music I like, especially piano pieces.

Your last 2 question is vague. Obviously...

The last question, all I can say is, I just love music. There's no need for definition, asking it is like... well, never mind...

*EDITED*
I hope I don't sounded harsh or offended you in anyway, if yes, kindly forgive my rudeness and take it as I'm immature to do so... I hope we can take this as a discussion and sharing on knowledge and information, neglecting those rudeness, harsh, offends, etc.

One more thing I would like to share about simpified methods:
I used to help my friend in teaching students maths in her tuition class, the particular student is in Standard 3 and can do basic "pecahan" (e.g. 1/2 + 1/2 =?). She has no idea, lazy, no interest, no initiative to learn... I would want to use the word "stupid" because unless they REALLY tried we can't judge. One more interesting thing is, you give her 5+7, she calculate and giev you the answer, you give her 7+5, she calculate again, or many other scenarios... Her maths always fails, the teacher in schools have all given up hope on her... My friend got very stressed and fed up teaching her cause she's really lazy, pays no attention, etc... No point scolding her... So, ARE you going to follow OLD method to teach way, just FOLLOW blindly what the course teaches?

What I do was, I make it very very simple, giving her example, like pecahan, I keep asking her to draw cakes, and tell stories, making it interesting to her, so she pays attention and have interest. For maths calculation, we need to make her understand how it works (like in music or any other things, HOW it WORKS is important)...

She don't just have problem in maths, same goes to other subject, but I've only taugh her BM and Maths... BM is worst, she can't even answer those question after a story because she never understand the story. I have to make her read each line and explain to her, and slowly make her understand how to understand the story, then how to answer each question based on the story, not just go to this line or something. Some teacher, just tell you the way how to do it... BUT to LEARN we MUST understand how it works, that way, we do not need to memorize, we just KNOW.

OK, I'm not saying in classical path you do not learn how music works, but not so soon, usually students got everything after Grade 5, that's the average, some untill grade 8, some might still be confused and lost. But as long as they have interest in Classical music, it's no problem cause they'll be continue pursuing, but for those who's dropping out because they have no interest, then they're losing and falling. That's why we need to let them know, if you just want to learn play the songs they like on the piano, they have OTHER options.

Well, interest is very important as mentioned, it will trigger self improvement, self practice, etc without the need to be forced or asked. And as for learning, it's always a tough process, but you can make learning fun and easy or the hard, stressful way. It doesn't necesarily have to be classical, even for short courses, if the teacher are not creative and have passion, it's won't help the student much, whereas for classical, the teacher can make learning fun and make the student interested, but of course, since it's classical and the exams are also classical songs, the students have to (or preferrably) love and have interest in classical. Even for those simplfiied courses, not all song I liked, so when I'm on the piano, I feel reluctant to play them, thus resulting in less practice of those songs, imagine if it were those tough, long, tedious classical songs. But if it's nice songs like Fur Elise, Ballade Pour Adeline, etc, I wouldn't mind to play them over and over again... even if it's hard, tough, etc... so you see, interest is important. If you teach a student in the songs they like, they're more likely to learn and practice; thus advance. The might be even be pushy and always turn up for classes, showing very much interest, etc

There one person, called, "Yoke Wong", try google her, she's very famous, she's from classical path, very experience, but she have encountered problems in her life, and finally created simplified courses for people. Try and read her story.
http://www.yokewong.net/
http://www.playpianotips.com/

Also, you REALLY should go watch the video "Play Piano In A Flash" from Scott Houston "The Piano Guy" before judging. You should understand more in depth before making any assumptions.
http://www.scottthepianoguy.com/
http://www.amazon.com/Play-Piano-Flash-Ful...o/dp/B00009A8ZX

This post has been edited by Andy214: Jul 19 2007, 10:46 AM

Sorry anson for the heat discussion, =P, both got carried away.

As for your point on cello, not just piano, everyone does agree that short-cut is NOT good, it's not NO short-cut, there's always short-cut, but it's always a bad thing, or unless use properyl or carefully. In situations like driving for example, you can use short-cut by cutting queue which is obvioulsy bad, or in housing area, there's always the small lane, which people likes to use, but they should be more careful when entering and exiting and keep the speed down. In terms of music, short-cut can be seen as without learning music theory, or the process or how the music works, just go straight and learn a song by memorizing, not understanding, if you get what I mean (like you just teach me how to play this song, I don't want to know what is chord, keys, all those basics stuff)... Right, talk about basic is one good example... short-cut can also be like skipping the basics, but simplified course DO NOT skip the basics, you learn chords, keys, all those, you also need to practice scales like everyone else. They key point is how they approach you in learning music, more straight forward, using hearing and feeling, also attracts/build your interest like using interesting songs and/or allows you to choose your own song. It can be seen as modern approach where people learns to build interest in students and make learning more interesting and fun.

As for the course "Play By Ear", the book did actually tell you some background history of music, how it is invented, also how the piano is invented.

As for classical, there's no actual age limitation that you cannot learn,... it's the passion, interest, effort and commitment that counts. If you're very into Classical, there're high possibility you'll work hard for it right? Like I mentioned before, no point forcing someone to learn clasical in order to be able to play contemporary.

To clear things up, I did not say do not go for classical at any point of my post, I'm providing information and suggestion for the simplied courses, like "Play By Ear". Many didn't know the path of classical music when they just want to go for contemporary or simply, just being able to play the song I like. And also, it doesn't mean learning these simplified courses, you won't be able to play classical. It's still music, only difference is, the "additional" playing skills applied on classical might not be taught in simplfied courses, but in "Play By Ear", you have higher level which teaches advance playing skills (if any students later have interest to improve further).

Another point is, there's no problem for anyone to take up BOTH, in fact, with "Play By Ear", it helps a lot for conventional piano classes, but in conventional piano classes, it'll depend on if the music school or teacher allows you to advance so fast... They're basically earning from each classes. That's why I mentioned, some will shorten the course, some will force you to go through each classes even tough you've mastered it.

Many self-taught musicians and also profesional don't really depend on notes, or even know how to read notes (maybe they can but not smooth untill able to sight-play), but they can play really well, improvise, etc. Notes reading can be learn quite easily, the problem is sight-playing, but here's an example of sight-play:
1. While you're enjoying a piano piece by your friend who's sight playing, suddenly, there's a CUT-OFF moment... which is... the FLIP of the pages.
2. If you took off the book/sheet, they're lost and confused, unable to continue, if they're fully dependent on it.
3. In the Bass clef, they have to follow blindly, and can't determine if they've hit the wrong key or chord in case the sheet or note is wrong / they see wrong (in the case they haven't reach the level of ability to feel the song, because in conventional piano lessons, you're starting with papers, theories, not hearing and feeling yet). Plus, in any case there's wrong keys/notes in the piece, they either just follow blindly, or they stop wonders somethings goes wrong and unable to fix it. That's why sometimes you see some piano players can play the wrong note and just go on or stop and keep looking at the sheet/note, don't know what to do.

Some conventional piano students, at certain time, they'll self-realise or learn the ability of playing by ear, feeling and hearing. Also, with the ability to play by ear, you're actually improving your hearing ability and feeling. You will hear and feel more in detail from before you do.

When you compose a song, you're using your hearing and feeling, you write it down in note for reference/record.

Maybe for those who need more information/understanding, can try ask go and just have a look at the centre and ask for some demos or something. By the way, they have graduation ceremony each year and students can perform on stage solo or with a group, with each student playing different instruments (using the keyboard) with different roles. Last year, they also invited a drummer and a guitarist to help out. This year, they're providing drum courses as well. Also, do you know that Play by Ear have BLIND students as well, last year 3 graduated and perform on stage. As I said, it's about hearing and feeling. Also, I believe most of you heard of Ray Charles.

Talking about drum courses, I attended the talk or demo (sort of), they mentioned about rythymn which is also an important part in music. The talk was very well carried out and also explain the importance of music and how it affects people's life, etc.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Jul 20 2007, 12:55 PM

Their drum course I think is 499 or 599 for I think about 10 classes. If you're interested, you should attend their presentation, not sure when they'll held again... it's very interesting, and they let you get involved in some activity as well.

Anyway, for Play by Ear, there's an upcoming presentation as follows:

1. clear up and get to the root of the problems people are facing when learning music
2. play a game which help you discover whether you have music talent
3. shows you videos and slides on how people achieve musicality

There's also door gifts worth RM115.00

Dates:
1. 21st (Sat) 2.30pm (Kelana Jaya)
2. 22nd (Sun) 3.00pm (USJ + Kepong)
3. 28th (Sat) 2.30pm (USJ)
4. 29th (Sun) 3.00pm (Kelana + Kepong)

If you're interested, you can pm me your name and contact number and the how many pax are going, OR
you can directly contact:

Alex Leow @ Play By Ear Sdn. Bhd.

41A SS18/1B Subang Jaya
47500 Selangor Malaysia
Tel: 03-56323397 24Hrs Hotline: 03-20733176
Fax: 03-56371802 URL: www.12playbyear.com
Email: enquiry@playbyear.com.my

Haha, LoL, I don't like to do sales job, I'm a perfer to stay in the office, anyway, I'm a System Analyst, way far from Sales lines.

Well, just want to share and let everyone know or have the chance. I don't know, is it wierd to share stuffs, giving benefits to people in Malaysia? Should it be, "the less people know the better, then there're less people good at this" or something? I mean, lets say when you're working, you found something useful in your work (e.g. a very good solution to a particular problem), and you share it with your colleagues so that they don't have to struggle later when they face the same problem, OR do you say, let them face it, it's unfair for you because you have to go through so much, while other can just use your solution? By the way, this also leads to "simplified" I mentioned, in regard to "short-cut", this is NOT to be considered "short-cut".

Anyway, if you're a student, you get to join their forums and Yahoo Groups where you can post questions and also see any events, news, etc. They're also looking for students as you know MANY people didn't know about the course, and/or some have toughts like, "is it real? too good to be true" type but never went and see, while some have friend's who are from conventional classes and persuaded them to go for nomal classes instead, etc. They have appeared in Newspaper a few times already, some came for the presentation after they saw the newspaper ad. If you go to the office, you can see many news paper cut out about their course/students/achievements/also history of Alex, the founder.

It's a good course and why not let everyone who is interested to go and have and look and decide whether they want to join? But one thing that everyone should know, it's a business afterall, so they WILL still promote their courses and some marketing strategy, like discounts, cost comparison, stuffs.... altough it's a presentation to the course itself. Just bear with it, the presentation can be interesting if you're interested and be open with new methods. By the way, there's no FIX method to teach piano, the normal piano classes is just ONE of the way (PROVEN) to learn piano and classical music. It's about teaching afterall.

Talent? yes, your ears, then your feelings. If you can hear music, can feel music and not tone deaf, you shouldhave no problem doing, just need to tap on to it and understand how, you'll be surprise how simple and easy it is, or it might take some time for your ears and feeling to be unlocked, usually from confusion/mixed. Try this, just try and play melody by ear using the piano or any instrument you can, just try with a very very simple song, and ONLY play the melody. When you hear the first note from the song, try and find it and MATCH it with the tone in the instrument... it's a simple listen and match game. When you got it, and listen to the second tone, you should roughly know where is it, basically it's simple if you're not tone deaf, you should know it's going higher or going lower then you can determine where's the next chord to find. That's playing MELODY by ear, as you progress, and/or as you get familiar with the keys, you'll become faster and easier. As for creating/catching/playing chords, you'll need to learn about chords, of course, you can still catch it by ear, especially arpeggios, but they're fast, and on the low notes which are usually harder to differentiate.

As for profit, well, they're a running business, for sure they need money... if you're providing the service, and you only request donation, hardly anyone donates, especially in this country where many people likes free service and take advantage... how would you feel and how would you survive? We just have to understand, it's still a business afterall, that's why I mentioned, to highlight that in the presentation, talking about the course, price comparisons and stuffs. But, as for profitability, I'm not sure how well their profit, perhaps enough for standard living or slightly above average... but if you're the owner, will you be satisfied? As a musician, you should know how costly a music instruments/products/etc.... I don't know about business, but if they're rich, they would've become very large now, have many branches, big offices/music school, driving luxury car, etc. But, one also can argue that they don't plan to invest on the business or is saving up the money.

Many piano students wre "forced" or so called, just being signed up when they're young and ended up quitting later, not necessarily the teacher, usually, the song. How many people do you think like classical? It's pretty obvious right? You go to a music shop, how many people buy classical songs? And many other scenarios. Some kids, they have the urge or feeling they want to play and learn the piano, after certain show or inspired by someone or movie (e.g. current ones High School Musical), and they wanna be able to play the songs, they signed up... but what they ended up with... DO RE MI.... after 10, 20 lessons, what do you think they're STILL doing? I don't even know how many years before they'll be able to play the song they want, and that time, I think they already no longer interest in the song or have new ones, but before that, they would've probably quit. Even if they don't quit, they'll be lazy to practice if there's no interest, imagine them sitting on the piano, suppose to practice their lesson but ended up trying different things and got bored and annoyed. They might even skip classes or give excuses.

In Play by Ear group, I've seens stories of parents having problems with their kids not wanting to practice and wanted to give up their normal piano lessons and asked for opinion whether they're doing the right thing. Sometimes, parents think that, it's for their best, they'll understand in the future,... Well, IF in the future, they become a piano teacher or involved or used the piano, that is, else, they might hate piano for the rest of their life. I have few friends who quit normal piano lessons, but they like to listen and watch people play the piano, but didn't want to touch or learn it anymore. Also, sometimes before my classes start, I saw some parents with their son or daugther (teenager or adult) come and inquire and they mentioned their problem with the normal piano lesson... There's one girl, should be around 17 or 18, took more than 6 years to complete grade 5, quit after that, she said she quit before the course was never interesting, and she never get to play the song she want, she requested the teacher to teach her the song
"Fairy Tale" by Michael, the teacher promise after grade 5 but never did, so she quit. Till that day, she still can't play that song. There sould be notes/music sheets, I'm not sure whether she can sight-play well, maybe she need people to help her get started or guide her.

As for hating music, I don't think one can possibly hate music... perhaps, you should be more specific, if they DO hate the songs the learn or not. I can tell you I have no specific genre of songs I like nor I don't like, as long as the music is nice. Some people may say they hate/dislike classical, but when they hear Canon in D, Ballade Pour Adeline, Fur Elise, or some really nice and famous classical, they might don't know how to answer and say, this is special. Anyway, I can feel how boring it is IF I were to learn classical because one day my guitar friend came to my house, went to youtube, find all those classical pieces he learned and also those exam pieces, the videos, and also he perform some... man, each piece is very long, and I am so tired and boring,... he's very excited with the videos, musics, praising/complains here and there, telling me this and that, I just have to bare with it... And worst of all, he told me the challenge for those exam piece and how tought etc... To me, very simple, I just want to be able to play the song I want, for fun and my own hobby... not getting some certification, etc... I don't feel the challenge, instead, I feel the challenge when I want to learn the song I want, I got inspired, the hear, passion, interest to learn to play it and improve it. So, it depends on each person. If you find you like classical songs, then you can take up the normal piano lessons. My Guitar Friend already learned guitar for more than 13 years at least, and still learning... but he still can't play by ear, at least to my expectation cause I'm quite dissapointed when I show him a video of the guy playing "Gun Fan Sui Yuet" by Beyond on guitar, ask him "can play ar?", the first thing he asked me, "got note ar?"...

If you are not sure whether you like those classical songs, not just like Canon in D, Fur Elise, etc... those are very nice one, altough they do teach that, but also try listen to others and determine. You should at least feel OK and can get into the mood and feeling/etc/etc... Just like in music, some music we just don't like to hear, it may be nice, but just not our kind/type of tea/coffee.

Also, regarding the point by cello about playing fast, I think it's classical students who are more tend to think playing fast is good. For us, we want to play LIKE what we hear, because we're playing by ear, feeling and following the song. In classical, the songs can be very complicated and some requires real fast action, so these students would LOVE to show off. This thing pops up in my mind when I mentioned about my guitar friend, when he show me one classical piece which requires fast fingering and the notes are very complicated/running. He's very impressed by the person, but to my point of view, I'm also concern with the smoothness and also another important part, the balance of volume... see, when you play fast, you tend to hit harder, in guitar you strum/pluck harder/etc, you might lose the balance in the song.

Nono, you misunderstoof my meaning, I'm not saying classical is about playing fast. I'm saying that classical students tends or have higher possibility of doing so because they will be playing by note/sight play, especially when dealing with complicated and running notes. You recap back that cello claimed that I, or oter of these simplfied course student would FEEL being able to play fast means it's good. As for playing exactly, I thin you don't understand what I mean, I know you can play it faster or slower, or any other style, what I MEANT was, e.g. when classical student plays Fur Elise for example, they try to keep up to pace, they HIT the keyboard hard, the timing might RUN also the sound will not sound NICE, the FEEL of the song will not be NICE... you get what I mean... Another point I'm saying is, because usually, USUALLY, they're playing mostly by SIGHT-PLAY, so there comes other problems.

As for the hate thing, you SHOULD try and understand a person who dislike the song right from the beginning, NOT as how YOU feel, but as HOW the PERSON feel. It doesn't matter playing first time or over and over again, they wouldn't even feel like practicing or playing, NOT to mention that classical pieces are LONG and HARD. Even in Play By Ear, some student might have songs they don't like, the songs are pretty short and simple, and they can EVEN neglect or practice less, imagine CLASSICAL.

For chords, I'm not really sure what you mean, but there's a LIST of FIX chords for a particular keys, Chord Progression. Anyway, all that technique you can learn in Play by Ear, perhaps you should understand the course before commenting?

Again, playing by ear, you should understand before commenting... but for complicated classical, I do agree with you it requires more skills, time and commitment, not necessary talents... When you're experienced and more skilled, your ears and feelings better trained and exprience, you would like you can catch many songs more easily, for tougher songs, you simply just need to spend more time and more attention, etc.

Of course, nobody said it's wrong to be able to sight-play and play by ear. I'm just providing information on Play By Ear courses and also about conventional classes is for those who KNOW they want to learn classical. Mastering, or not it depends what you want to achieve,... again, as I said, what do you want? For me, I just want to be able to play the songs I like, for fun, hobby, etc... I believe many people shares the same tough... and IF one day, they wish to further improve or become profesional, there's no HARM taking up further advance classes or classical for that matter, NOR does taking this BEFORE could've hurt their future (besides, it would actually help them A LOT), AM I RIGHT? So, is anything WRONG here???

Hey, I didn't go against CLASSICAL or normal piano lesson for that matter, every course have it's own weakness, I'm not saying Play By Ear NOR any other simplfied courses are better or the BEST, but they're alternatives or choices for people with different needs. Again, there're no FIXED method in teaching.

Urm... I hope people don't mistake simplified/improve/advance teaching as 'short-cut'. We humans improve, mathemathical calculations, science, technologies, etc are all improving everyday, we make simplified/improved/advanced version/methods so that we can master/learn faster and easier. What we are LEARNING now, in school, college, life, are all improved/simplfied/etc... I hope people can understand what I mean, that's what makes us here today...

Then, as for teaching, there're VARIOUS methods/ways for one to TEACH another. The conventional piano classes ARE just one of the PROVEN way, but it's NOT the ONLY or FIXED. It simply covers everything step by step in a syllabus developed long ago. Who knows, it might have been IMPROVED/SIMPLFIED/UPDATED a lot of time up top today.

Play By Ear is simply a DIFFERENT approach in teaching MUSIC using the PIANO. Notice I mentioned, "TEACHING MUSIC USING THE PIANO". Music is about hearing and feeling, notes are for reference, note down/etc. When you compose song, you use your hearing and feeling, then you write down in notes. Play By Ear simply APPROACH teaching MUSIC through HEARING and FEELING. In many simplfied (maybe I should use ADVANCED?) courses, they also noticed the similar problem with conventional piano lessons, that's why they also approach teaching with HEARING and FEELING.

No, I'm NOT saying conventional piano lessons don't teach using hearing and feeling, please don't make any assumptions. It depends on the teacher and also they don't touch hearing and feeling ability untill the latter courses, usually after Grade 5.

IF you ever been a teacher OR tried to teach someone, and that someone is a bit slow, very hard to catch up and/or understand. What do you do? Keep doing the same thing? We're humans, we IMPROVED, so we will try different methods/ways so that the student can understand easier and MOST IMPORTANTLY, PAY ATTENTION and INTEREST. Indirectly, what have we done? We could've developed NEW WAYS/METHODS to teach something.

Now when we talk about interest, YES, some people later developed interest in CLASSICAL, that's IF they do. That's why I suggested one to listen to the classical pieces, especially those WILL be taught in classes and see if they have any interest AT ALL. For people who already have INTEREST should try to understand the burden and demotivation in learning something they have NO interest at all. They DON'T even need to learn, just by listening can make them fall asleep, bored/etc... What's more LEARNING... Also, classical is not a short piece, it's long and repeating, and if one doesn't know how to appreciate, it simply means nothing or no attention paid, thus not applying any feeling. Even a pop song (which is short) can get people bored when they don't like it, what's more with LONG, REPEATING classical pieces. Of course, IF one have the interest, by all means, take the conventional piano courses, it'll benefit them the most.


Entertaining people... I don't know why some pianist like to show off their fast playing or other 'useless stuff', but that's more true for conventional piano lessons because they're playing by sight-reading. For people who play by hearing and feeling, they will be concentrating more on applying the feelings to the song, etc. To entertaining people, grabbing attention, most important part is the feeling of the song. When you play sad song, you want to make the listener able to feel it and maybe cry, and if you're NOT sight-reading, you're able to express it more through your playing (imagine someone paying the song, but the head is eyeing on the notes, and the worst part, the FLIP of the PAGE.).

Talk about playing by feeling and grabbing attention, go watch the movie "Together" (in Mandarin called "He Ni Zai Yi Qi"), a chinese show, about a 13 year old violin player. Nice and sad story. In the movie, it also show a girl who's really good in playing, she hit all the right notes, but the problem is, there's no or little feeling in the song NOR her playing (when you look at her), while you can see the BIG difference in the boy, especially in the END scene. You can even watch the END scene on YouTube.

ADDED:
By the way, there's also another movie which is very nice about a composer trying to teach at a high school. See how he tackle the problems of the student who have problems. The clip of the scene is also SHOWN in Play by Ear presentation. The movie is called "Mr. Holland's Opus", check it out.

Yes, many modern songs/interumentals today are based on classical pieces, but as I mentioned, they IMPROVE/IMPROVISE/UPDATE/etc... They make the song more interesting for some, but again, most classical pieces based on are popular and very nice EVEN to those who don't like classical. Like I said, genre is NOT really a matter, the most important part is the MUSIC. I don't particularly like any GENRE, but there're many CLASSICAL song I have NO interest AT ALL, but there's SOME which I really really really like, such as, Canon in D,Ballade Pour Adeline, Fur Elise, etc... BUT I'm not gonna just learn the conventional piano lessons just because of these few songs... There're some people who loves the CLASSICAL, they can stay on forever, like my guitar friend who's been learning guitar at least more than 10-15 years and is still learning, and he can talk a lot about classical pieces.

LASTLY, before ANYONE jugde PLAY BY EAR courses, or any other ADVANCED courses, please UNDERSTAND the course before commenting/insulting/making assumptions/etc. By the way, the methods in Play By Ear is MADE IN MALAYSIA and RECOGNIZED by a MUSIC UNIVERSITY in UK.

For more DETAILED information, KINDLY SPARE SOME TIME to read the below NEWSPAPER ARTICLE (I already use the time to type this and also FIND the LINKS for each and list down, all you need to do is just READ):

Some newspaper article regarding Play By Ear:
http://www.playbyear.com.my/Press/PressArticle01.htm
http://www.playbyear.com.my/Press/PressArticle04.htm

Comments by some students in newspaper:
http://www.playbyear.com.my/Press/PressArticle05.htm

More information about Level 1 in newspaper:
http://www.playbyear.com.my/Press/PressArticle08.htm

History on the founder in newspaper:
http://www.playbyear.com.my/Press/PressArticle03.htm

If you notice, many of the point I've mentioned before in my post, and NO, I have NOT read it before I make the point, so in other words, it's very common sense thing. If we could just take away our prejudice/reluctancy and try to understand and accept, you could learn and know what it's all about.

By the way, learning is never ending, by learning and knowing other stuffs doesn't make you weak, it makes you more knowledgeable, and who knows, you might have new ideas/new ways after learning something. A GOOD teacher will NOT just stick to one thing, they'll always improve themselves, learn more, and apply as necessary. Who knows, one day a teacher would apply methods of other ADVANCE courses into conventional courses, or maybe, it's already been done by someone.

Oh, if you READ the article, there's a GUITAR player who took up the course, he's said to have won some award or something, so I assume he should be pretty famous.

EDITED:
Just in case someone get over excited or something, just to remind AGAIN (I mentioned before), don't put too high expectation, miracle don't just happens or does this course guarantees you something. If also requires your hard work and commitment. Everything requires practice, even a simplified course. The objective of the course is to approach teaching of music in a different more DIRECT way, easy to understand, etc. It's up to you to learn, understand and practice. Just imagine this, you'll have to learn the play the piano well in short time, and playing the piano is not magic or can be taught, you have to practice and make yourself get used to the piano, making as if it's part of you. The more you practice and spend time with the piano, you'll more familiar with it and play it better, some theory applies by other things. On the other hand, if you can already play the piano well, you'll have the advantage, especially since the course doesn't restrict you, you have maximum 1 year to complete each level but no minimum.

This post has been edited by Andy214: Aug 2 2007, 11:05 AM

Hi,

How's the lesson going?
PBE2 is more on bassing ideas, left hand skills and also many different playings styles like Rhumba, Bossanova, Jazz, etc...
You'll also learn playing as an accompanist while you sing the melody or song. I'm quite slow in my lessons mainly due to my left hand competency, thus I onl managed to learn the basic accompaniment playing. Used up most of the time for the bassing ideas...
Hope you can manage to learn as much as possible, practice more if you can.

Whose your music coach? I think if you mentioned my name, he/she might know me, LoL, cause I used to post a question regarding my left hand problem on the PBE Yahoo Group and I "think" it cause quite a big issue.

Anyway, talking about Jimmy Chan, did you attend the Faisal Simonelli concert by PBE? He's also playing Richard Clayderman/Jimmy Chan style. But I'm most impressed with the keyboard performance by Alex, the man himself. Did you went to see it. If not you can watch it online on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcQ150xE6ps
(Live version during the "Popular Keyboard Method" course launching)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J57xnNWM1mg
(A better version, same as above, but since it's not live it's smoother and with information).

LoL, first time see him do "action". I only knew that he was also a self-taught musician and able to play up to 9 instruments (from what I heard).

By the way, if you did not attend any of the previews/talk before, you can now actually go for exams and get yourself a TRUE certificate from London School Of Music (I think). No theory, just play contemporary songs according to the list provided and 1 complementary songs chosen by you yourself (in any language).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwdloHu1WYo

Good Luck!