Starting today, Steam now allows modders to put price tag on their mods on Steam Workshop, starting with The Elder Scroll V: Skyrim.
http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/aboutpaidcontent/

This is currently the paid mods available on the workshop now.
http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/browse/...5B%5D=paiditems



What do you guys think of this? Good move or a major step backwards?

UPDATE:

too many to update, all linked here
https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comment...n_thread_day_3/

Nexus's DarkOnes response
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12449/?

Gabe Newell's AMA regarding the issue
https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33...mods_and_steam/

Current situation:
- 17 mods is now available behind paywall comapring to 19 on day 1
- Schlangster (SkyUI creator) will put SkyUI 5.0 on Steam Workshop as paid mod while maintaining the old version on Nexus as free mod.
https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comment...essential_mods/
- Some modder have hid their mods in Nexus to prevent from being stolen and in protest of SkyUI 5.0 being paid mod.

This post has been edited by memphiz_zero88: Apr 26 2015, 10:26 PM

Wet & cold also cost RM18.50 now and yes the is a free version but they missing something. Bad day for PC modding community today it could be a next trend.

I don't really mind.

if u like something u must pay la..everything free free free meh.. tu orang pun mau makan ma.

Agreed food dun fall from the sky

I would have preferred if it was on donation basis. Do the mods have a trial in which I'm able to try it out or must i str8 away pay for it right off the bat to try it?

you can refund within 24 hours

Never thought I'd see the day where I've to pay for a mod. Sure paying the modder is good and all but the implication is much bigger than that, it affects the community and pc gaming as a whole. Remember, modder only takes about 25% of the profit.

wow. that sucks. 25% only.........volvo is so greedy =.=
i dont mind paying for the mod if its good and as all said, they also need to makan.
and by paying them, they may put more effort into their mod and came out even more better.
these modder is not full-time programmer or get basic salary from doing these, they just did it out of their free time.

soon they'll be a bundle site selling mods

mark my words, in a year or two

So does that mean I can treat mods like DLC now?

Because seriously, if they want my money, I'm going to f*cking treat them like DLC.

I mean, holy shit, even EA didn't monetize mods.

some user reported that now we have Skyrim tab in inventory for paid mods.

If they bundle to make total conversion mod why not?

Disagree with this. This is essentially Greenlight 2.0 if you look at how Valve manages e whole store and Greenlight. Except this one makes more money for them, breaks up modding teams and hurts your wallet.

There are many hurdles with making paid mods such as:

- What about multiplayer mods? People won't pay for a mod solely just for multiplayer which is why Blizzard scrapped their paid version of custom maps.
- the pricing of the mods are absurd. RM3.70 for a sword or RM22 for a companion while they are selling Skyrim now that has far more content than debut pack for lower price than the debut pack. Looks like Valve had brought the price gouging mods from the flight sim community who are selling a plane for $40 on Steam. How much will modding Skyrim cost now with payware mods?
- How are you going to ensure that all the contributors get a share of profits when there are case that you get mods with dozens of contributors?
- making mods is already stressful enough where some people are rude and not accommodating to moders for stuff that is out of control like mod conflict or busy with real life issues. Now, with money factor in it, people are going to misbehave even more than before as they expect better "quality" because they paid for it.
-There wil be mod piracy now, how are they going to deal with it?

I bought paid mods before because those people are doing far better mods than 99% of the modders out there and they had proven themselves that their work's quality of far better than the developers work before they even start charging for it. How could I trust an unknown modder selling a DLC on steam Workshop can provide mods that is better and more complete than developers work?

Donations are fine but putting a paywall isn't because there is too much issues.

i am not saying it might be a bad thing but what i'm trying to get at is that

selling mods would be a thing and we would have it sold at bundle sites as a norm within a few years

make them pay

sign the petition


downvote SKYRIM

explain why.

put a shitty game where it deserves to be, to rot in hell


If it wasn't for the modding community SKYRIM would only be an average game, with decent storytelling.

I wonder if they will release a patch.. and then bam, most of the free mods stop working. Then slightly altered paid mods come out and maybe watered down free version.

I feel sorta conflicted about this. I do feel that some modders deserve something for the effort they put into their mods. Some Skyrim and Total War mods are gifts to mankind, and they deserve some kind of reward for their efforts.

On the other hand, i fear for the modding and gaming community. What will happen to sites like Nexus and the fine modding community on there. Likewise Twcenter for the total war series. It could divide the community. As it is, a lot of mods tend to borrow components from other mods. How will this work exactly ? Do some mods cease to exist because it borrows from other mods ?

There's also the issue of longevity and future compatibility. Paying 5 dollar here and there may not sound much but it is when you put game updates into the mix. Modders may choose not to support game updates or dlcs, or simply quit modding for whatever reason and you may find that particular mods obsolete. What happens then ?

This post has been edited by hfi: Apr 24 2015, 11:21 AM

25% only then no la not fair

Donate is better than this. At least when you donate, all the money go to the modders.

Gonna post this.





By the way, this animation relies on FORES.



and Guess what FORES said?


"HE DID NOT GET MY PERMISSION TO USE FORES" ROFLMAO


BURN CHESKO! BURN YOU EVIL MONEYGRABBING SLIMEBALL!


Attached thumbnail(s)

Decide to leave this here

Lots of negative reviews now on Skyrim steam page.

Also, this http://www.pcgamer.com/paid-for-skyrim-mod...atter-of-hours/

Da heck steam? This is the most stupid move I've seen!
Support modder by giving modder 25% while Steam earn 75%, and modder can only get the money only once they earn USD100?

Totally lost faith in steam now.
Now those weird "modders" start putting up lots of cheap cosmetic mods and selling them at ridiculous DLC price.

EDIT: Apparently it is publisher/developer that set the cut of modder.

This post has been edited by bergstein: Apr 24 2015, 07:59 PM

Heh, this gonna be fun since every animation mod uses fores framework. Just hope fores dont get annoyed and DMCA everyone in steam workshop

Regarding this issue, its kinda a stupid move since 1 advantage of Steam is the steam workshop since everything is get to go. Lets see what will happen to Cities:Skylines once the modders start to charge money for their creation.

wow, charging for mods now?

What attract me to PC gaming over console is the shear amount of FREE mods that extend or make the gameplay more enjoyable. And Skyrim wouldn't be so favorable if it was not for the modding community.

I'm not against paying for good mod as it is well deserved, and sometime I feel like they deserve much more than the developer, lol. But I think this Valve system does not benefit the players and the modders in the long term and might ruin the modding community.

For expert modder, it may not be a big of a problem but majority of mods out there uses/borrow content from other mods. So It's a mixture of mods in a mod. It might be the script, the animation, or the graphic that is borrowed from others. It was not a problem before because mod was made for free and it is good enough to just credit each other for their contribution. But when it comes to being paid for it, then there's so many problem can occur like who should get the most share of pay, and what if a modder decline to have his content used in the mod later, and etc.

Modding community prolly gonna split and have sides. One side remains modding for free, and another side do it to get paid. There will be less collaboration that makes the mod a lot better imo.

And usually mods are fixed by the help of report from players and people are encouraging the modder for fixing it. I've seen a lot of instances where players voluntarily donates to the modder for their hard work. But when it is paid mod, player will become customer minded. The modder gonna get bombed and forced to fix the bug or upgrade their mod or the player may demand their money back. Their mod may be down-voted and sooner or later, people will not buy their mod anymore.

And moreover, mods are known for incompatibility issues. It would be just annoying to buy a mod and learn that it is not compatible with other mods. And it won't be just as easy as asking the modder to combine their mod in a pack and release it. Or when developer comes out with base game update, the mod may not go along with the game anymore. Or when save game ruined coz of a mod. Previously, people will just be a little annoyed and thats it, coz its free. But now its paid for, the amount of shitstorms are just gonna be tremendous. Its like the developer outsourced their DLC work to public but getting paid for it. Next thing we know, developers will purposely produce shitty games and then charge a lot for DLCs and the mods.

And then there's the issue of Bethesda and Valve getting 75% of the profit with modder getting 25% with extra conditions. And modder may get lesser than 25% with taxes, transaction charges, etc. Again, I'm not against modder getting paid for their work, but this system just benefit valve and the developer as money grabber. If Bethesda is serious about helping modder, then they should have contacted places like nexusmods or other mod platform, but they didn't.

In my opinion, donation button is and already effective way for helping the modder for now as no proper system is available that is actually helping the community. Moreover, mods have been made just for fun for years, why monetize it now?

Lots of new and wondrous mods for skyrim. Excellent prices http://kotaku.com/the-most-ridiculous-skyr...dium=Socialflow

most of the "parody and protest" mods have now been removed from Steam. Looks like Steam doesn't like the shitstorm, but they aren't backing down either too.

Now i'm scare Total War will be heading to the same direction

hurm..i tot dota long time start this right?

before DoTA and all, even in the very early days of beta Counter Strike mods were free and people did it for the lulz, and everything, but NEVER money.

75% cut is way too much imo.

U guys complain valve but the choices are modders to make to bill u or not.

So is the modders too greedy wishing to earn extra bucks from their hobby?

As for 25% share, dunno is fair or not? But the modders are building on ppl platform, the developers spend years to make the whole game, so the game was a success then u want earn money on it, is fair to paid them some of your earnings. As for Valve shares I have no comment.

Be honest,25% is never fair for modder. It mean that moddder will have to seel even more to break even,and if they don't like it they can private away.

Let see how this shitstrom goes.

When you make a product, you don't become a modder. You become a seller.

That means, your product better be good enough.


These modders will be swamped with complaints, requests, etc.

yet Bethesda and Valve does nothing, gets more than double the share of the modders.


You realize that the modders MUST make 400USD within 3 months only to receive 100USD (not inclusive of tax, oh wait, inb4 GST and all the other things in Malaysia, if you take a Malaysian example), and its NOT CASH, but 100USD of Steam Wallet, which essentially mean you cannot buy anything but STEAM items.


So who gets the money? Modders? NOPE.

Bethesda is lucky that people mod their game. Without mods, I don't think skyrim will last this long.
They should pay this modders for making Skyrim to last this long and still attract gamers to buy Skyrim.

The idea alone is quite ridiculous though, I mean selling mods? Mods have always been free all this while. What they're doing now is more akin to DLC except that it's done by amateurs instead of a team of professional developers. What the other person said, how is the modder gonna guarantee that his mod will work on my setup / game? 24 hours is too little a time to test it, if it's even compatible with other mods or future updates. If you're unlucky you'll probably end up with a dead software and there's no way to get your money back.

This is just the beginning though, soon more games will adopt the same thing. DRM for mods? the idea isn't too far fetched. All signs are pointing towards that direction. Mods outside of steam will be rendered useless and the only way to obtain it is from steam workshop. 3rd party sites like Nexus and Mod DB will die a slow painful death.

Is gonna be like TF2 hats soon...

Chesko's so called "experiment" in a nutshell



may he burn and rot, long live and live a miserable life. Greedy modders should all be cursed.


and...



oh yeah. When money is involved, oh yeah.

This post has been edited by hyperyouth_firepower: Apr 25 2015, 10:59 PM

lol btfo

Gabe's in this thread http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33...mods_and_steam/ in case if anyone's missed

yea, he's still optimistic

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33...ojpi3?context=3

http://kotaku.com/gabe-newell-optimistic-p...dium=Socialflow

This will be open a new can of worms. Take for example a game like Cities Skylines. Example if I made an asset which has the Petronas Twin Towers, Telekom building, Dayabumi or even a building from a major developer. Then I proceed to charge people to use my asset.

If my mod is free, no problem with the owners of the building as it is akin to free advertising for them. But if I charge money for let's say the Petronas Twin Towers, will Petronas come after me for earning money using the likeness of their building?

It is like I make a Twin Towers 'Lego' set and sell it as a toy but not officially licensed from Petronas. Sure kena from the building owner.

i wonder what's the update?


Guys, if you want to screw Bethesda and Steam, go to their SKyrim product page, even if you love the game, just flip your recommendation to "No". You can always kept what you like about the game, what you've written, but flip your recommendations to "No".

More NO votes will have domino effect, and potential buyers seeing "negative" or "mixed" would think twice before buying.

If OVERWHELMING NEGATIVE, even better. That's where people can HURT BETHESDA and STEAM for being the greedy slimeballs they are.

new can of worms ... yum yum
time to use my Maya to make money

new can of worms ... yum yum
time to use my Maya to make money

Stuff dont fall from the sky free

These modders work hard for u

I actually think its a great idea.

Of course it might be bad for us since we have to pay for mods now. But I think the mods and devs deserve it.

We keep saying we should support the devs, but our purchases are once only. The mods basically work for free and we are asking them to keep working for free as though it is our right or rather privilege.

Most modders do it out of love. Some compensation seem fair if they think their mod is worth paying for.

In the future, community driven content will continue to make profits.

CS:GO and DOTA 2 are very heavily invested in community made and voted content. The content creators makes lots of money even when they only take a fraction of the profit. This is due to the insane volume of transactions that occurs globally for their product. And it will continue to generate money for the creators as long as the game is still popular. It's not a one time paid contract like what devs pay their artists. Valve actually created a system for people to work for themselves.

MODs are inherently part of PC gaming but there is no system to 'fairly' distribute the profits if monetization were to be implemented. Previously, devs would hire these modders and release a DLC for the game. VALVE stepped up with a system for this.

There are several issues and grievances relating to this topic;

1. MODs should be free. (privilege thought, expecting people to work for free for your entertainment)
2. No quality control for MOD. (user rating will be best, but rating currently is behind paywall)
3. VALVE is greedy. (VALVE always takes its cut as a service provider, rest is split between MODDER and Dev)
4. MODs will now be behind a paywall. (valid issue, this will tempt popular MODs to profit instead of FREEWARE)
5. Shared 'base' MOD for other future MOD (license to use issue, this could get complicated)
6. Setting precedent for future games to profit from MODs. (valid and also it's inevitable)



This post has been edited by Skidd Chung: Apr 27 2015, 02:34 PM

i dont see much of an issue here, its not like steam is forcing people to sell their mods, the choice is still up to the creator to earn his dues.

i dont understand why folks are arguing and going agsinst steam over this matter. hell i play guitar, and sometimes id love to get paid for it

And 45% goes to Bethesda, how is Valve greedy?

This post has been edited by nakal_mode: Apr 27 2015, 02:26 PM

A lot that complain give half@ss reason to reject this system. The only reason why mod was free is because there are legal consequences in the pass and mods are forbidden to gain profit for their work, some project require funds and mods have asked for donations.

Steam find a solution for a win/win situation, since they claim that mods are technically made with their tools and product so they had come up with a 75% cut for both the company and the platform that provide service possible, which is steam.

In the pass most of the mods know that the money donated is barely enough for them to work on bigger project, it's not even close to having a comfortable life, on top of that donated money cannot be spend on things that they like because the ones who donated hold their word on a mod be made possible very seriously. So all in all whatever that was donated can only be spend on their project, so if a mod is found to have used the donation for their own personal gain they are going to receive a back lash from others.

Steam is offering now a legal chance to make money out of their mod, money coming in will not be the same as donation because this are earn able income, the modders only have to work once properly and maybe do a little maintenance from time to time, after the mod is done they can choose to work on new mods.

This in turn is the key point why people who complain about mod getting 25% is a problem was self justifying. Imagine you set up an auto business and then you don't have to work on it, money comes in automatically without you doing much is like an interest income or a royalty income which is what everyone who is working dream of, an auto money generating income so you don't have to work for that extra cash.

At first 25% vs 75% may seem unfair, but a little research would tell you that steam had done their homework well to understand 25% is a good income earning comfortable enough for mods to keep working while enjoying a legal sum of auto money coming from public.

The mechanic tied to CS:GO, TF2, Dota 2 and many other succesful in game purchase of items which yield high profits. With 25% profit per sale modders are able to earn up to a day job's pay, or maybe even more. With donation a modder have to be lucky enough to actually receive a target quota.

It's every modder's dream to be able to get paid for something they work on and do not have to worry about legal reasons. Because of a portion of public backlash modders had to hide their true feelings about this new implementation, to kind of agree with the public just so they don't get scorn by this internet freebies bully.


MOD WAS SUPPOSE TO BE A HOBBY !!! A PASSION HOBBY!!

This is bullsh*t. There is an option of "pay what you want" as well as making it available to everyone if the modders choose to do so. If they want their mods to be free they can, the fact is no people should justify if being a modder should get paid or not, it's hobby in the pass for legal reasons, right now with the option of legally earning it's up to modders to decide if they want their hardwork to get paid for or not. The public had no right to insist that whatever mod that was made should be free.

Try to work on it if you insist it should be free, why most of those whinning in the first place is because they are the majority of those who didn't lift a finger in any creation, they have not used the SDK to test out how hard it is to mod a game, they had no clue on how much time and effort is required to work on a mod. If they are so against modders getting paid why not make their own mod? Because they can't.

As the saying goes "If you are good at something, never work for free". Most of those who complain in real life are just as greedy as how they are reverse in the internet. They justify stuff should be free because in real life they take advantage of other's good will, and right now seeing that they no longer gain advantage over other people's work they rebel in hopes that things will revert to where they are, getting free stuff from other people.

You will have those who talk about modding philosophy and it's concept of it origin ideology, well what was once maybe correct is subject to change in the future, as nothing stays true forever, if change is made and you still want to hold an old philosophy true, then start a new movement and shift those that share the same ideology to build a new community, it is always about the popular movement of an idea that would reason the outcome of a justification, in other words if the majority of modders don't like getting paid and enjoy doing it for free they would follow the old philosophy and trough that will gain triumph over paid mods.

The ultimate weakness is players themselves, there are so many things they want and like, but not willing to pay for it, when they say the system should change to donation base they technically just told the public "Hey I don't want to pay a single cent for it, let others who can afford pay for it" Which in turn not fair to those who donate. Which is also why their suggestion is invalid as they knew they are not going to pay for it, maybe some would to prove that they do donate, but the majority won't give 2 sh*t about donating to the mods.

There are a lot more things I could say, but I think it's enough wall of text for people to digest what I have to say. This scene is not old, in my line of work in the pass also I have face so many of such people. who say things like this, the modders like us had to be strong and stand firm on what they want out of modding, otherwise people are just gonna keep bullying until you give up modding.

A few sample of what those people complaining about mostly sound like ... "This one use photoshop very easy what, 2 hours can finish already, RM250 only for this? I also can do la" ....... if you can you wouldn't ask me to do it for you in the first place.

"I no money, low budget, this design only need to copy and paste, RM50 can?" ..... -fishing for college kids.

"If I pay so much I expect you to die working for me" .... -Mr.Entitlement

"I don't like your work can change for free ar" ... -Mr.Cheapskate

"Can you make a few 100 sample? I'll pick 1" ... Mr.CCB

There will be people who agree or disagree in terms of opinion, I for one feel the need to spill out what I honestly think without fear of being pound by negative comment or force to twist my view to follow the majority of fearful lemmings.

The world is going to a direction where consumer is too weak to resist what that is not justified as fair, if the keyboard warrior are strong then vote with your wallet, not complain and then spend money on the product to show hidden hypocrisy. Then cyber bully or abuse the mod creator for being greedy in hopes that they are "forced" to agree with your view.

TDLR : The majority of people who is bashing steam, bethisda and modders for being greedy do not have a solid reason to justify themselves on why things should be free like before, and offer no solid solution to help mods because their ultimate goal is to keep enjoying free stuff that people spend their sweat and blood on. The majority use technical issue, complexity of other mod involvement as well as "the meaning of modding" to push their view and keep the advantage of taking something for granted to continue.

I humbly and pleafully urge those who support the idea that modding should be compensated only via donation straight to the modders, not Valve and Bethesda, to put negative reviews of the game.

Why?

The game is okay, flawed. With mods it becomes open to many possibilities. But without mods, its just a flawed game. But very much hyped game, no doubt.

I urge you to spread the word and have MORE negative reviews, and look for mods that will add better gameplay for you (lore friendly or not)


It does not make any economical sense when you buy Skyrim for RM22.50, and buy the mod package (starter mod package) for RM100++, only to find that you have to cheat to get the items, and the items are cheat items basically.


Don't believe me? Check the mods for magic, the swords, and armor.

Lore friendly or not, its essentially cheat items.

Why pay RM100+ for cheat items when in economic sense you can get a BETTER cheat version for FREE? Not to mention BETTER crafted cheat items too!

Not buying the game and mods is the only way to hurt them, not negative votes.

But I agree that modders should get paid for their work if people like their mod, just that it will create a whole new problem for the industry because a lot of modding work and assets are usually "borrowed" from other games, literature or even from other mods.

Most classic example, DOUBLE KILL, TRIPLE KILL, MULTI KILL, MO-MO-MO-MONSTER KILL!!!!

we all know it started with Unreal.

Only newfag noobs insist its exclusive with DoTA.

+1 I agree with what you said.

Lots of people keep whining that mods should be free, because they just don't want to pay for something and wants it for free. They spare no thought for the content creator. Donation? Yeah right. Most people do not donate, they just ride for free and wait for others to donate.

Why pay? That's right, you don't need to. If it's not economical, it won't be economical.

This is where data is important. No boycotts, not votes, not LIKES.

If a MOD overpriced itself, it won't get bought. If its a crappy MOD, it won't get paid. If it adds nothing but skins, it won't get bought. People buy what they think is worth their money. As Gabe said, money is the currency of opinion.

VAVLe do not set the prices, modders do. Modders can release their content for $1 if they wish. They can take the mods out and keep it free if they wish. This is what modders want! They want to see $$$. VALVe is setting a systems not only for Skyrim but for other games in the future. Again VAVLe already foresee what community content creators are what will drive PC gaming. Devs just need to ensure their games are highly moddable to ensure continuous profitability.

VALVe data will be proof that the concept works or not. Already during Gabe's AMA regarding this issue, he mentioned that VALVe so far earned USD10k from it already. If that is his 25% cut, means so far $40k worth of mods already sold.


This post has been edited by Skidd Chung: Apr 27 2015, 03:18 PM

its total of USD10k in sales, and valve's only gotten less than that.

in order to "discourage" people from buying mods, you have to hit where it really hurts. You have to make sure the game is unfavourable. You have to spread the word of mouth, you have to advertise.

These actions seem trivial, but it DRAWs attention, to funnel the energy and attention to where it matters.

There are mechanisms in place to explain why BUYING mods is a VERY BAD idea, especially POORLY written ones. Right now Steam has THROWN every effort into twarting people from addressing how the mod is bad.

E.G, if you haven't bought the mod you cannot enter into the mod's workshop page and say "this is a bad mod".

Logically speaking there IS NO WAY for a person to know if a mod is good or bad? WHY? Look at the pics i've posted above, and another pic I posted back in page 1/2, where how STEAM is now EFFECTIVELY censoring. Thumbs down has been removed, there's only thumbs up. Bad star rating has been removed, and suddenly EVERYONE has 5 star ratings left and right.


Therefore while Valve and their cronies are trying to channel the flock of bleeting sheeps into buying more mods with these little acts, WE as supporters of GOOD and PROPPER MODDING MUST counter these actions. By doing nothing we're AGREEING with STEAM, and I personally do NOT agree with Valve and Bethesda's methods on monetizing the mods in its current form.


Just as Gabe Newell said, you don't try to earn 10k and piss off the internet resulting in 1m losses. Or something around that, I'll need to find the spesific quote. So in order to counter that, SOMETHING MUST BE DONE.


Right now there already are paid shills claiming that IT IS A MUST to PURCHASE MODs, when that argument fundamentally holds no water, and its so bad that its not even wrong.


Therefore to disrupt that, the mechanics are in two methods:


1) destroy the rep of Bethesda
2) consolidate the idea that we users cannot be forced into paying for mods.

Beth's response to the paid mods
http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-wer...-mods-on-steam/

Bethesda has been one of the champions of modding for a long time. Almost all their games are made with modding in mind. You are literally biting the hand that feeds the modding community. Your objective to destroy a company's reputation will make them revaluate if they think the relationship is worth fostering in the future.

I don't even play Skyrim and I can tell it will be good for the modders to legally get paid for their work. All the legal loopholes are being addressed. Creators actually getting paid for their work. Donations don't work. Neither does pay what you want.



This post has been edited by Skidd Chung: Apr 28 2015, 07:25 AM

Steam is removing the payment feture from Steam Workshop
https://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorks...632365253244218

ayy

When we monetize such items, players will automatically assume we need to take full responsibility for our products. And often these products are not on a professional level and we can't fix every single problem they have. And of course, it's not logical / comfortable for us to attend to every freaking complaint messages from the player as we are either single individual, or a very small team. This is where the scumbag people comes in, sell mods get quick bucks - and damn the dev and valve get big cut for doing nothing. After getting the money and cabut lari without further support in the future.

Is that what you want? I am very disappointed if that is what you want the community to become. One drop of poison and the whole community become tainted with negativity.

Yes people always say the line "vote with your wallet... blah blah blah". But seriously, there are always people that doesn't care - they buy whatever shit they want. Which is why DLC, early access, monetize beta key, unfinished games, franchise milking become trends. This gives those corporation perspective that these craps are popular and what people want and so they will continue to do so.

Good to see that the storm is now cleared.

If modders want to earn actual money for their MODs, then yes, quality is an issue they need to address. If they feel their MODs are complete and worth a dime for players to DL, then they have to be ready to support it. Including support for new patches, bugs, etc. Once you get paid for something, you are a professional. It's that simple.

The system that was in place, perhaps in it's infancy is not as well thought out. Needs a lot of fine tuning, curation and also a lot of resources for feedback and payment. But the concept is correct and I truly believe it is going in the right direction.

The 'community' is fractured in terms of free riding consumers and lack of funds modders. Passion doesn't pay bills unless you get paid for that passion. Monetization already has a bad rep as it is in the mobile arena but it is because apps don't sell and 'Free' apps are the ones suffering from monetizations fiasco.


Edit: Added.

While I agree Steam Greenlight and Early Access has its set of problems, but I'm not interested in the trash and you should not too. I'm interested in gems that come in rough and can be polished to a game that can be enjoyed.

I personally love Insurgency which started as a mod for HL2, but because modders don't earn from it (donations don't work), they tried Kickstarter to fund it to fully make it a game the players deserve. It failed the Kickstarter (not famous enough). Then they got into Steam Greenlight/Early Access and successfully funded their development to be the game it is today. This is just one example.





This post has been edited by Skidd Chung: Apr 28 2015, 09:46 AM

No, Bethesda isn't a champion for modding. Yet, I do recognize the fact that they have not actively tried to curb / stem the modding community, until the recent fiasco.

In the same vein of "nobody asked you to pay for mods", I would retort in the similar "nobody asked them to mod with expectation to be compensated, or let alone build a mod" in the first place.

When you sell something, there is MORE TO IT than just putting an item on the shelve and hope that it flies off making you rich.

You have to deal with legalities that binds you as a seller of a product or a service.

In Chesko the slimeball's case? He was blinded with greed. Not only he LOST his "shop", he lost control of his product (he can't even recall his own product, refund the money) all because he had signed the contract, which allows Valve and Bethesda to have FULL CONTROL of his own product.

When comes to the post sales part, he couldn't even bear the heat. Yet in his response, he "naively" (a term which I'll use ", because he claims to be naive, and I felt that he is a cheating, lying greedy scumbag he is) he blames EVERYONE but himself for his own downfall, which is also greatly attributed to his own mistakes, because he quickly signed up because of greed.


The goodwill that Bethesda supposedly established wasn't exactly their own doing. It's ironic because they did absolutely ALMOST NOTHING, neither yay or nay to the modding scene that allowed Skyrim modding to even thrive, compared to other companies that actually tried to stop and stem their own customer base who have copies of the game from modding. Ironic for Bethesda who did nothing to receive such unwarranted adulation.


Yet their first action in a long, long while for the modding scene is to CHARGE money for modding. Oh yeah, some great "goodwill" from Bethesda. Yeah, some goodwill alright. You realize that Skyrim mods aren't exactly built from scratch, since they use the same engine used in FALLOUT 3, New Vegas, etc, that most of the core modding content were basically copy and paste of the working proof of concepts, which is BUILT upon foundations of modding of previous Bethesda games. I'm sure you DID your homework, right?

Brr PC master race saved?

Again I disagree that they are trying to 'curb' the modding scene. If greed is their only intention, they would actually want to see it grow exponentially by providing even more modding tools for amateur and professional users to create content for them.

This was the stepping stone for them. If data proves it right, then they will begin to rethink how much support they should continue for their old game just to extend the modding scenes capability.

If profits generated from extended and I mean years of data to affirm that an active modding scene can continuously grow your profits for an obsolete/old asset, then continuous maintenance and improvement of that asset can be budgeted.

If your asset can be modded but it does not bring anymore income, there is no incentive to continuously support the said product. Skyrim might not work beyond Windows 10 because there is no incentive for the dev to continuously support it beyond its intended lifetime.

Incentive such as monetization will not only help amateur modders survive but will bring in more professional ones to the scene. If you think the current mod scene is fantastic, imagine if professional 3D artists, coders, voice actors etc. actively try to get into the scene with better products because the money incentive is there.

You have to think how much something can be improved instead of thinking how bad it can become. That's how you grow.

Or it can totally turn into one of those mods where the developers drop support for the current mod entirely and promises to fix all the faults in the second mod that requires you to pay again.

A negative viewpoint.

You're thinking of the amateur scene at the moment. And how an amateur scene will try to 'cheat' the consumers.

I'm thinking of how this will entice professionals to come into the scene full time. Not one person, but a professional team or a company producing polished mods as a business.

Where support and bug fixing is a priority instead of "I'll see what I can do after work in the weekends."

Where your mods reputation and continuous sales will pay for your electricity. The modders are full time engaged and constantly fixing and improving their mods.

While you are thinking of skins as a mod, I'm thinking of total conversion mods made and supported professionally like a DLC. There are no shared 'assets' with other mods. All are original or from the game and working as a mod by itself. Not by combining all different mods from other modders just to get all the assets.

This post has been edited by Skidd Chung: Apr 28 2015, 11:02 AM

http://sureai.net/games/enderal/
http://sureai.net/games/nehrim/

http://sureai.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=136&t=7057

just to point just one VERY GOOD example while you're saying you're being more pro.


Alexander J Velicky, the owner and creator of "Falksarr", spend numerous hours, literally speaking more than 1000 human hours invested into his mod.

He had ONE aim, that's to impress Bethesda enough that it can be made into a CV, that he can hopefully work for Bethesda.

In the end Bethesda didn't even lifted a finger, but a BIGGER company called the lad up, and he's joined the other company.


Let me point it this way. His mod, is completely F.O.C


Nehrim, another example, which has been posted by puppeto4, COMPLETELY FREE.


The point stands. Nobody who makes mods, are ENTITLED for monetary compensation. Even the legendary mod turned into new game CounterStrike didn't began as a paid mod. But it accepted donations, and at one point had a dedicated site ran to charge mods if you really wanted one, (but then again people pirated it more than paid for it). Yet it lived, and people actually CARED to donate not because the modders were entitled to, its because the gamers felt that they were being part of the game's ownership in the modding scene by commissioning people to mod for things that they weren't able to, but it was NEVER on COMPULSORY basis.


Are modders entitled? I still believe HELL NO. But can they be compensated? Yes. But must they be compensated?

HELL NO.






Just to also add on, base on your assumption that, I quote:



SKSE choose to remain free.

Chesko the slimeball took the bait, and when what did he do when he was supposed to "support and fix bugs"? That's right, he closed up shop, went on an internet rage, blamed EVERYONE except himself. So much for "PROFESSIONAL SUPPORT AND BUG FIXING".


Oh, let's just revisit the so called "quality check" post i've posted somewhere above. When you have to type in CONSOLE COMANND to CHEAT just to get another CHEAT item over something you've paid for instead of getting it in game via a quest, etc etc, its broken.


There are SO MANY OTHER mods that have similar effects (giving god tier weapons etc) without even needing the players to touch the console, and is easily accessible in the most logical situation too. Not to mention it fits in to the game, (despite the item would already break the game because its so OP), and YET THEY ARE FREE.


And since you're so into the DATA and all that. Please show me A REAL QUALITY mod, PAID in Steam, and I'll probably find a counter somewhere that's equivalent in function or form, and its free, and probably have BETTER "after sales" support.

That's only looking at SKYRIM, at STEAM workshops. Using flight sim app mods as a comparison is just plain wrong.

This post has been edited by hyperyouth_firepower: Apr 28 2015, 11:38 AM

Does said fixes and improvements include testing all the mods available on the mod marketplace?

Are they going to fix the mod they have because it doesn't play nice with the other mods I have in my game?

Because I'm too cynical to believe that will happen.

The mod scene is too big for one company to fix it just because one other mod breaks their total conversion mod. And I truly do not have faith that said company or team will do that, I've been burned one too many times by "indie" developers and Kickstarters to do that.

No access to that site at the moment, will get back to you.

I will use your example of the popular mod Falksarr. Since you seem to see him as a great example of a success story of a modder.

This modder had no other ways to earn for his trade. He can't legally charge people for his mod due to the risk of DMCA. He accepts donations though. But he isn't getting paid enough. He is getting by.

His only option like many other modders for any other game was to get his mod out to as many people as possible (free MOD) and get the 'recognition' he needs to actually get PAID to do what he loves. Your entire narrative of how this single modder spend literally thousands of unpaid hours just so he can achieve his dream of being a professional and getting actually paid for his passion.


Now just think for a second if he spent the entire thousands of hours for the risk of getting ignored altogether. Would you remember his name? He would probably give up this passion after a few mods to his name. He can't make a living spending countless hours doing it and begging for donations. There is one Falksarr in Skyrim.


Now this is the scenario I am pitching;

If Falksarr was sold for 4 bucks in the workshop. He would get $1 for every copy sold. Did he need to beg for donations? Nope, people pay him because of his work. Would he need to work for another company or present his 'CV' if Falksarr was so popular it hit a million downloads? Nope. He would be swimming in money and probably make his own company and hire other modders to support his mod. This is how he can be successful without begging, without waiting for Bethesda or other game companies to hire him. He can be a professional on his own.

Falksarr is only one of the examples of a passionate modder being successful. Its like a rags to riches story everyone loves but doesn't realised it is rare.

How about now if modders get paid and other professionals start modding for profit. They can do it full time because of the money. You might be getting 10 different "Falksarr" into Skyrim. Isn't that better?


Again you are thinking that these modders do not charge for their mods because they are so happy or so passionate they work for free. They don't.

MODSs are FOC because if they start charging for it, DMCA will start knocking NEXUS doors asking for profit cuts.

At the end of the day, they are using a licensed IP to create their mod. If its for free and not for commercial use, no one really cares. Once it hits retail, that is where the pie needs to be cut.

A lot of game engines are also available for free. You can make your game with it. But if you try to sell your game, then they will start asking for profit sharing since you used their licensed engine.

Saying a mod is FOC doesn't mean the modders don't want to charge for it. They do but have no legal way to do it. So they survive on donations. Begging to be given a lifeline to continue their passion. While the privilege consumers demand bug fixes, more free content, availability and adaptability.

This post has been edited by Skidd Chung: Apr 28 2015, 12:34 PM

Nope, you still won't get 10 different Falskaars. Why?


That's because when you sell something, you have to be responsible for the post sales services, which I believe you conveniently squirreled on the issue. Not every modder, despite being paid, will fix their shit. In the past 72 hours of the paid modding, the Shadowscale armour mod author did exactly this. Chesko, for his Fishing Mod, did worse. He pulled it off, and that's akin to sell-and-forget scams that MLM-ers do.

Oh and don't let me get started on his case that he required FNIS to work, which was FREE, and if a paid mod required another paid mod to work, that's even WORSE. Don't let me get started on that, because I can already think of some things that would have happened, e.g Fishing mod dependency on MCM/SKYUI, both paid. Yeah, quality my arse alright.

Please do not deny this, because there are people who REALLY BOUGHT Chesko the slimeball's mods, and then were it not for Valve's policy (good for them, but bad for Chesko in many ways than one), they got a product that's BROKEN, and will have NO LONGER SUPPORT, and worse, they cannot even demand a return. Did you know the moment you demand for a return, you get banned for 7 days from marketplace?

Yeap, that's how "one way ticket" experience is for users who are FORCED TO PAY FOR MODs, especially SHIT quality ones.

Again, since you're so into harping about DATA, you haven't even answered WHAT QUALITY MODS were available in Steam Workshop FOR SKYRIM.


I can go and use any mods I like, and I don't have to even REMEMBER whoever the username / nick handle that created the mod. If I like it, I like it, and if I feel I want to contribute further to the development, I can probably PM the guy to tell him of bugs and ways to FIX it, or pay some form of sponsorship for him to find a fix. But is he/she ENTITLED to a MUST PAY? the answer is NO.


Right now all I can think, despite much of your twisting of my example to even make a stand, the clear fact remains, NOBODY who makes mods are ENTITLED to demand that they MUST be compensated.

If they want to make mods, make it. If they want to sell it, try it. But must users be held to a ransom point that we MUST pay? NO.

because they're not entitled to be paid, and we're not made compulsory to pay up. Especially with ABSOLUTE NO GUARANTEE of a quality after-sales service, which in the VALVE-BETHESDA fiasco, has proven my theory right that they just sit there and get money, while modders get the flak they rightfully deserve for being the shills they are (especially in Chesko's case), and despite no matter how they try to censor and smooth talk, the evidence is clear that paid mods does not equal BETTER MODs. PERIOD.

This post has been edited by hyperyouth_firepower: Apr 28 2015, 12:34 PM

The system is flawed, yes I agree. It could've been done better. Yes I agree. I will support every fact you quoted about mishandling of refunds, 7 day bans, no possibility of recourse if mods are removed etc. I agree completely how this all looks like it is the worst idea ever.

But you are citing examples of a 3-4 days of use of an infant system. Problems are not being given a chance to be fleshed out and bugs to be squashed. But the concept is right. These workshop mods are from amateurs. This is what exactly you are dealing with in modding community. Quality mods have no chance to get into it yet. The system didn't even last a week because of the back lash. I would dare say no one actually managed to taste the money.

Please don't say ransom, you can still play Skyrim. Mods are optional and always is.

If Falksarr was for sale. Will people buy it? I'm sure people will. Will it be successful? That is the data we do not have. But if it is successful, will it be continuously supported? Can you imagine a mod so successful, it forces the company of the base game to release patches so the mod can work? I can think of one. DayZ mod for ARMA 2.

I know the system is flawed because of implementation. But not the concept. You can protest the bad implementation and it can be fixed. You can demand 48 hours refund instead of 24 hours. You can demand they drop the 7 day ban. It's all just implementation issues.

But the concept of incentive based mod building is still the right way to go.

You may disagree because you believe the concept of modding is to remain free and niche. Strictly Skyrim sense, yes it is niche if only 8% of users uses mods.

I believe the modding scene will grow even bigger and wider if these incentives are introduced. Not exclusive to Skyrim only. There are a lot of games that can be modded. There is a wide pool of basement talents just waiting to be recognized and grow big. And I truly believe with these incentives over time, you will see the results of the system of paid mods growing and improving the mod community.

Note:

Please do not take my not commenting of recent Chesko scandal as skipping on issues. I just think it's a small issue because it will not be a common thing. Currently due to shared resources, the challenge was to prove who is the rightful owner of current established mods. This is a legacy issue with older Skyrim mods but will not affect newer mods that is design with that clause in mind.



This post has been edited by Skidd Chung: Apr 28 2015, 01:01 PM

Do you ever play skyrim? Without mods, skyrim is full of bug. The unofficial patch is necessary to enjoy skyrim. Skyrim will never last this long without mods.

Skidd dude i know you mean well and being optimistic but in regards to Skyrim, it's one of the few games where it should be left alone. The mods there is the result of years of collaboration between modders. Mods being free is not just a thing for gamers but also for other modders who tend to download other mods to look under the hood for the intent and purpose of fixing and/or creating something better or different. This is particularly true for one particular modder and creator of FNIS whose mod helped launch countless other mods. A paywall would deter him from doing what he did and would have likely prevented his mod from coming to fruition.

If they insist of charging for mods then perhaps future titles are where it could be implemented where everyone start from scratch. But Skyrim should be left alone in its current state. As it is this paywall had already fractured some parts of the community. I hope it will recover from this mess.

No I do not play Skyrim. I hope that fact does not exclude me from the discussion.

I do play Fallout with mods, M&B Warband with mods, Insurgency with mods and CS:GO with community made content. All mods I played are free.

I am discussing the potential of the system of paid mods not only exclusive to Skyrim but to the entire ecosystem of mods that may benefit all consumers in the future if the system takes off.

If Skyrim without unofficial patches is broken. Then the problem is not with mods but with Bethesda.

Is an unofficial patch a mod? Should you pay for unofficial patches? I would say no on both counts. But if you expect work for nothing, you shouldn't have expectations.

This post has been edited by Skidd Chung: Apr 28 2015, 02:05 PM

Paid mods for Skyrim is history. It is gone and the modders there will not have an avenue to monetize their work anymore. Now they only have to wait for recognition, donations and work for gratitude.

If this history of Skyrim legacy mods were to be addressed. If the creator of FNIS or any other baseline mods were to be officially recognized and compensated by Bethesda. If Bethesda officially takes this mod and make it as part of the Skyrim client. Would it be more easier for future modders to sell their work? Since there is no more conflict of interest.

But hopefully future games will include mod tools for their games if they can see that this market/scene is where they can continuously extend the lifetime of their IP.

This post has been edited by Skidd Chung: Apr 28 2015, 02:16 PM

If Beth were to take these mods and put it through some proper QA process to deem their worth and comb through any potential problems then sure perhaps these mods are worth a price and everyone involved can be satisfied and get on gaming happily.

A lot of these mods were never stable at launch and it being free meant a lot of people could easily download them and help beta test these mods. This is part of the backlash from the Skyrim community as a lot of these mods resulted from collaboration of not just modders but also users who help tested these mods. A lot of users tend to create patches whenever modders themselves took too long to fix things. This is what Beth and Valve should have offered if they were to implement a paid system. Mods should be officially supported by both modders and developers. As it stood, it was everything modders, Beth and Valve to gain but paying customers to lose. If the mods were broken it was up to modders to fix them without having any obligation to fix it. It was more or less ask them nicely to fix it. It was a shitty deal all around.

They really need to think this one through. Because gameplay altering mods are not as clear cut as cosmetic mods.

This post has been edited by hfi: Apr 28 2015, 02:48 PM

This is going to be a long read, so I hope the long reply won't bore you.

Still,
Sorry, in the years of Skyrim modding, the only patches that Bethesda have downloaded are all DLCs that doesn't even mostly fix issues from previous patches or DLCs, but instead in some cases ADD MORE bugs to the entire game. Skyrim Wiki has a lot of such entries. I'm going to address what you call as a "small issue" base on your following comment below.

I myself am an optimistic person, but clearly in this case, you're drinking a lot of Valve and Bethesda kool-aid, and look at the turn of events, since they are irrefutable facts, since you love to talk about facts and your reliance on stats (I know i've been hammering on this point, because at the moment its supporting my argument, that is, for now). The guy who made one of the UNOFFICIAL patches, also made SKYUI / MCM, which allows a lot of other mods to latch on and have a menu of their own.

Guess what happened?

the same guy put SKYUI v5.0 on the paywall, yet claims SKYUI 4.0 will be free. Not to mention SKUI 4.0 and 4.1 is STILL BUGGY. Yet he says development will continue on SKYUI 5.0, and 4.1 will not evolve. That's ESSENTIALLY RANSOMWARE.

To even put it very strongly, since he had all the versions uploaded on a github, somebody actually paid for SKYUI 5.0, dissected it, and guess what? the only "UPGRADE" for SKYUI 5.0 vs SKYUI 4.1 is only 2 lines of codes, where it says "SKYUI version = 4.1" became "5.1". TWO LINES changed, and it ain't cheap too.

Oh yeah, so much for "INCREASE OF QUALITY" that you've been harping about. Oh yeah, so much of it.

Wrong. We won one battle but the war is not yet over. There will be new fronts, such as Gary's Mods, and others, and we'll continue to fight corporate greed.



You know, I intend to copypaste one wall of text to which I agree heartily, despite one part of me says "i probably can and should donate to a certain so and so modder because i really want to see him / her continuing development on a certain mod that I enjoy", but here goes


Credits: Kendo

Just to add another comment which I think is true in its very sense

credits to bjornk


This post has been edited by hyperyouth_firepower: Apr 28 2015, 03:50 PM

I read it and I agree some parts of it.

But your conclusions of 'QUALITY' is based on work of amateurs putting their mods for sale. The system is not even a week old. I strictly mentioned quality MODs will come to Skyrim if the incentive is there. QUALITY will come from the new modders going for the incentive. Older mods such as you mentioned that was put in the market are just that, old MODs. No one is getting a dime from sales yet. No one quit their day jobs yet. The system is still in its infancy.

How these modders think they can get away by just charging money for broken products gets called out. Community driven reviews such as the criticism of current mods for sale is extremely important if the market were to stay competitive. Modders know they will be called out if they charge for a broken product. They won't make sale if their reviews are shit. This is where modders know they can only charge for quality.

The 'INCREASE IN QUALITY' is incremental and time consuming. It may take a week or month or year, where the actual modders have more free time as they get independent as the funds come in. Once they quit their day job, its full time modding to keep their products relevant. This is if the modders decides to dedicate full time.

Please UNDERSTAND that QUALITY doesn't come immediately. But quality mods will come if the incentive is there.

I will not defend the questionable practices of the current modders you feel are just cheating consumers with their broken product and you as a consumer have every right to demand the quality you think you deserve for what you paid. These are bad apples and it is truly your right to throw shit at them.


The market always correct itself based on popularity or demand. If a mod sucks, it won't sell for a penny. If the mod is great but buggy, it will be deemed expensive for its state. If a mod is a typical rip off, it will be called out and boycotted.


Kendo

Kendo's example is flawed because he uses the current practice of borrowed assets and share resources. The future is original content where modders come up with their own stuff or pay the commercial right to use others.

25/75 split is based on Valve's current practice. It may change for different games based on dev decision. The quota for withdrawal important aspect of accountability. If people can withdraw any amount, they can 'cabut lari' anytime. This will separate the men and boys in modding community. The long term vs the short term.

While 75% may seem greedy, its up to the modding team to determine if its worth their effort to sell their mods for 25% cut. You may feel 25% out of 4 bucks is not a lot. But if it sells 100k worth of mods a month, it is a lot. Now check the most downloaded free mod for Skyrim. Now just estimate only 5% actually paid for the mod. How much is 25%?

The so called Steam bucks scam. Valve is not a bank. They don't pay interest. It's essentially a pre-paid card. And modders gets paid in cash as far as I last read.


bjornk

Paying more doesn't equals quality. That is true especially in a scam.

But high pay attracts the best quality and retains it.

How do you attract technical talent into your industry? By promising gratitude and fandom? Or cold hard currency?

sorry, but using the 3 days example, there was NOTHING of HIGH quality that even popped up, even the joke mods or the protest mods.


Please share any PAID ones that were REALLY good?

You keep dismissing these people as amateurs.


Please lah, if pros were that good, BETHESDA would not have released a game so buggy. Heck, 20 million sales and after so many years, they still can't even bother to fix the game.

Let's just assume, at the lowest regional price, that's RM22.50 (That's less than USD 10), they would have earnt at least nearing a minimum of USD 200 million. Yet no fixes.

Oh, that's some "HIGH quality" alright. If a triple AAA company like Bethesda couldn't do it, you expect the modders will step up to the plate, on paid?

Sorry. Clearly the OVERJUSTIFICATION EFFECT isn't bringing in the "AAA" grade mods or bug fixes YET


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect


You know quality doesn't come immediately, it sounds very much like Proton. Sorry. I don't have that patience, and money must be well justified. I wouldn't purchase a crap if its crap.


The long term effect is that it destroys the entire modding scene. People won't cooperate. They'll force to compete. Let's just put Chesko again into the equation. See what happens when he had to compete?


Let's put Maddox the guy who made SKYUI, and one of the unofficial patches. His so called "quality" in competition (barring none, actually) is just an upgrade of 2 codes. ROFLMAO

Yeah right competition breeds quality. Apparently in the history of the 3 day "paid mod fiasco", that didn't happen. So please don't call kendo and bjornk's ideas as "flawed", when in reality NOTHING serves to concretely prove your idealism that bringing in capitalism into the modding scene makes it flourish. I mean, can you really point out even a decent example in SKYRIM?



you know one of the highest priced mod was an apple on counter charged for USD 99.99, right? That is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HIGH QUALITY. Yeah.

This post has been edited by hyperyouth_firepower: Apr 28 2015, 05:33 PM

I think you completely missed my point of incentive attracts quality.

You again and again quoted current free mods that is being put on a NEW untested market for 3 days as your benchmark of the lack of QUALITY and how my opinion of "incentive attracts quality" is wrong.

I do not know of any mods that is of high quality that was being put up for sale for the 3 days the market was up. Maybe if given a chance the esteemed Falksarr might be put up for a dollar if the market stayed open, would that be a good deal? Think about that.

Would you consider Falksarr a quality product that deserve a dollar purchase price on the workshop market? Will you pay 2 dollars for it? How about 10 dollars? Is that too much? Ultimately the market will decide how good a mod can sell on its own merit.

If the market was up for a month or a year, could more polished products be produced and sold? We won't know I guess. We won't know if the incentive worked because the market is abolished.

I specifically say these people are amateurs because that is what they are. Amateurs are people who work without being paid or considered a professional in their field. They do it as a hobby or as a side project in their free time. They are not paid for their time or talent to do it.

Market forces will decide how successful a mod is. A popular mod will sell well. A broken mod will not sell. It's a simple concept. You as the consumer decide if its worth your dollars.


As your "Apple on a counter for 99 bucks" example. I know you are being sarcastic and rhetorical, but I would say if the consumers wants fruits in his game. He might shop around for other mods that add fruits. It is up to him and the mod is entirely optional. If there is a mod for apples for 10 cents and another for 99 bucks, which will sell? The market will decide.

I don't know why you think competition will stump creativity, if anything it will breed creativity.

The reason why SKYUI has no other mod competing with it is because there is no incentive to do so.

If there are 10 different UI mods for sale and one is more highly rated than SKYUI, would you still be 'ransomed' into buying SKYUI? Incentives will breed competition, ambition and creativity to earn money.

That is true. A lot of mods are still being actively developed. Personally I prefer if 'in development' mods stay out of the market and only complete/finished v1.0 ones make it in. Development mods should be free for testing.

I don't expect Bethesda or any company to personally work directly with modders unless it is extremely popular to a point it is what majority of their player base wants. Due mainly to preferential treatment accusations. However, if Bethesda is serious about growing its mod community since its a profitable venture, it should begin supporting its main client as much as possible to be easy to mod and also fix legacy problems. However for now, there isn't reason to increase support for a modding scene so reluctant to change.

sorry, the only reason why anyone would even try to outdo SKYUI, was that somebody would prefer a free version over a paid version, not because SKYUI was that damn good (not to mention SKYUI development was already DEAD before suddenly necroed for the paywall)

You asked what the market decides, and yet you ironically forgot that the market wants a selective pay. Not to VALVE, not to BETHESDA, only straight to the modders, and that's not even the majority. The market has responded and the answer is clear, the economy forces wants to have the modding scene (at least for skyrim, until the modding scene fights in another front) that the modding scene in skyrim is to be left alone, F. O. C unless people want to donate to the modders.


Please, you're already ignoring the obvious facts

1) there are so many high price mods that are subpar quality
2) when demanded to fix it, the quality went down the drain. Some even stopped development (again, Chesko and his fiasco)
3) You keep saying potential, i'm stating the facts backed up by the history of 3 days. The market has answered, and I believe firmly this is the correct answer: selective monetary compensation on freewill, and mods must be a labour not of money. For love, probably, but NEVER A LABOUR OF MONEY.

Your claims of it will breed creativity, as far as I can say what happened in these 3 days, is pure utter garbage nonsense. Heck, go back to Chesko again. Did Valve and Bethesda do anything to protect him? NONE. So much for signing off his assets, which he can NEVER RECLAIM.


You talk about improving the system.


Let me repeat, by posting this picture.


Are you trying to deny this happened?

What is this? Is this an improvement? We just went back nearly to the archaic age of gaming, were it not for us protesting, it would have been FAR WORSE. You talk about improvements will come. But has the improvements arrived? NO.

Clearly if I would make a graph of progress, wait, the whole system REGRESSED from day 1 itself!


so how can you insist on harping that FORCE PAYING FOR MODS will bring BETTER quality when history itself has shown, laid right bare, that nothing as you said has even materialized?

Yet you have even the audacity to call the modders as "amateurs". Where is this professionalism improvement you keep harping? I demand to know where is it? Because there are NONE! NEIL! ZERO!