Thats a misrepresentaion.

Grace did not come to KICK the law out. Grace in its early form was not fully realised till Jesus came in human form.
The fullness of God's grace was demonstrated in Jesus.

John1

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If it was KICked out why did Jesus say this?

Mat 5

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Grace has been there from the beginning.

Genesis 6:8 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/genesis/6-8.html
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 19:19 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/genesis/19-19.html
19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die :

Genesis 32:5 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/genesis/32-5.html
5 And I have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and womenservants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight.

Genesis 33:8 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/genesis/33-8.html
8 And he said , What meanest thou by all this drove which I met ? And he said , These are to find grace in the sight of my lord.

Genesis 33:10 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/genesis/33-10.html
10 And Jacob said , Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me .

Genesis 33:15 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/genesis/33-15.html
15 And Esau said , Let me now leave with thee some of the folk that are with me. And he said , What needeth it? let me find grace in the sight of my lord.

Genesis 34:11 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/genesis/34-11.html
11 And Shechem said unto her father and unto her brethren, Let me find grace in your eyes, and what ye shall say unto me I will give .

Genesis 39:4 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/genesis/39-4.html
4 And Joseph found grace in his sight, and he served him: and he made him overseer over his house, and all that he had he put into his hand.

Genesis 47:25 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/genesis/47-25.html
25 And they said , Thou hast saved our lives : let us find grace in the sight of my lord, and we will be Pharaoh's servants.

Genesis 47:29 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/genesis/47-29.html
29 And the time drew nigh that Israel must die : and he called his son Joseph, and said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, put , I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh, and deal kindly and truly with me; bury me not, I pray thee, in Egypt:

Genesis 50:4 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/genesis/50-4.html
4 And when the days of his mourning were past , Joseph spake unto the house of Pharaoh, saying , If now I have found grace in your eyes, speak , I pray you, in the ears of Pharaoh, saying ,

Exodus 33:12 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/exodus/33-12.html
12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See , thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said , I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

Exodus 33:13 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/exodus/33-13.html
13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

Exodus 33:16 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/exodus/33-16.html
16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated , I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.

Exodus 33:17 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/exodus/33-17.html
17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken : for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

Exodus 34:9 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/exodus/34-9.html
9 And he said , If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance .

Numbers 32:5 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/numbers/32-5.html
5 Wherefore, said they, if we have found grace in thy sight, let this land be given unto thy servants for a possession, and bring us not over Jordan.

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Mar 4 2015, 02:42 PM

i only comment on your miss leading title..........LOL

And you cant argue with your leading verse, cept you did read in Context.

Neither does Gala 4:30 implicate kicking out!

Does this sound like kicking out?

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, [w]but of the free woman.

So you have miss represented grace.

Not a jot or tittle shall pass from the law

Maybe you miss this

24 [s]This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children [t]who are to be slaves; [u]she is Hagar.

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Mar 4 2015, 02:50 PM

Did i say to uphold the law?

As usual you are reading into more than you should. LOL

i am merely saying that the Law is nOT KICKed out by Grace.
The coming of Jesus brings the fullness of grace. Grace was already in the OT.



Jesus fulfilled everything for us. However, the law is there till heaven and earth pass. Every time we sinned, the law is a school master/tutor to telll us, to lead us to Christ, our redeemer.

So in effect, those who do NOT know Christ, they still need the tutor. To lead them to Christ in faith

Why do you see as arguing?

Have you not heard "Iron sharpen iron"?

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

Lets qualify this.

First of all i do not say to uphold the law.

The law is still in effect as far as a tutor is concerned. however, there is NO justification by upholding to the law.
Its only faith in Christ by Grace which reconciles us back to God.
Likewise the law is a tutor to those who are not yet in Christ.

However, if we sin, the law is the tutor which directs us to christ. It does not save us by upholding it. Hope that's clear.

What was the problem at Galatia which Paul was trying to address?

Its about justification by upholding the law.

Gal 2
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of [n]the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of [o]the Law; since by the works of [p]the Law no [q]flesh will be justified.

Then Paul goes to expound Faith and grace through Christ

Gal 3

You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by [c]hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you [f]suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works [g]miracles among you, do it by the works of [h]the Law, or by [i]hearing with faith?

Purpose of the law

9 Why the Law then? It was added [ac]because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the [ad]agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20 Now a mediator is not [ae]for one party only; whereas God is only one. 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness [af]would indeed have been [ag]based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up [ah]everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. [B]24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

The Paul uses allegory of Abraham, sarah and Hagar to show sonship or heir.

Allegory is a form of extended metaphor, in which objects, persons, and actions in a narrative, are equated with the meanings that lie outside the narrative itself.

The main gist of this passage is not casting out as you put it BUT

"For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

Its about being an heir of promise. The whole Gal 4 chapter is about sonship or heir of the promise.

Paul is quoting this

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

from Gen 21
10 Therefore she said to Abraham, “Drive out this maid and her son, for the son of this maid shall not be an heir with my son [d]Isaac.”

there was never a system to begin with.

Its in your imagination.

Grace was already in the OT as i showed you

And salvation was by Faith in the OT. Heb 11

So to say that there was a system of the law is wrong. In a way, your interpretation is very much like the Galatians, cept other way round.

The problem is you want to put grace vs law thing.
Law was never meant to save. So there is nothing to replace or kick out because the purpose of the law was not to save!

The law is not a tutor? Are you reading gal 3?

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Mar 4 2015, 05:32 PM

Again you dont understand clearly what Paul is trying to bring across.

Its the wrong idea of justification by law, not law per se, understand?

There is NOthing wrong with the law, only the wrong application of it with regards to righteousness.

See here Paul says the law does not invalidate a covenant

17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is [aa]based on law, it is no longer [ab]based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Because the promise was never meant to be based a law anyway.

If you find discussion obnoxious, so be it. OR rather you may find a refutation to difficult to swallow?
If you seek to post in a public forum, you expect feedbacks. Otherwise preach to the wall.

Wow! Speaking like that to a bro? Where be the fruit of the Spirit who you say is your tutor?

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Mar 5 2015, 12:29 PM

i tend to agree with you.

Jesus was clear that not a jot or tittle will vanish from the law till heaven and earth is gone.

Jesus came to show the fullness of God's grace. the law was given for a purpose and Jesus magnified it through His person.

We follow the whole bible.

The OT is the foundation for the NT. Its is also the scriptures of Jesus and Paul.

However, we have to be careful about CONTEXT. Many instances God is speaking to Israel and not the church per se.
Many charismatics like to claim promises in the Law but not the forms. Doesnt work that way.

calling yr bro Raca?

Pehkay

Dont you think its the other way.

That The principle of the Law is maintained? But the ritual commandments are done away?

What of the 7th day sabbath then? If commandment is maintained then we are to observe this?
But if the principle of rest is maintained, we can then say that its not necessary on the 7th day.

Yeah

And he instigated a ban on me and got me suspended while i apologised for my mistaking him for a woman.

I still carry that 10% warning.......

This guy has a problem with anyone questioning his theology.

Fruit of the Spirit? i smell hypocrisy.

Absolutely.

I thought he has put the woman identity episode behind. apparently not.

pehkay

thanks for the explanation.
generally i agree cept the very technical bits that you mentioned



Rom 10:4
4 For Christ is the [a]end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

In this verse end here does not mean termination, but the end point or target. i am not really for dispensations for grace and faith.
There was the working of grace in the OT. Salvation has always been by faith through God's grace. Heb 11
It has never changed.

However, in the OT, the fullness of God's grace has not been revealed till His son came down in human form.

16 And of his fulness have all we received , and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Many read vs 17 in isolation and think that its grace vs law thing. Its not. Law was for a different purpose, not for salvation. Althugh many Jews think otherwise.Thats why Paul had to teach this. It was not really a law vs grace thing in God's will.

Coming back to the law, the Jews had 613 commandments called mitzvah. These include the 10 commandments.
Thats the reason i have problems understanding where you were coming from with your differentiating of the principle, commandments and rituals.

My take on the principle of law is this. Its given as a tutor to understanding God's revelation of faith and grace and all the forgiveness, redemption, adoption, etc which comes with it. Its like a yin/yang thing. Without tribulations, you will not really understand the peace.
Thats why the remark that when we have good times, we will not need God.

Therefore, its not abolished as such. The law of God continues to be a tutor when we sin. Except for believers its now written on our hearts, and everytime we sin the Holy Spirit use it to convict us.

Jer 31
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying , Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Sorry
i am not baiting. Its called dicscussion. This IS a forum.

If he thinks i am baiting, its easy. Theres a ignore button. No need for Christians to call each other by nasties.

Paying to 'worship'!
Fleecing the youth and adults alike...........no difference between the world and the 'church'.
The church has become a community of sheeple without the real shepherd.

Come out of her..........

1 Jn 2
15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

Why should you be paying to worship the Lord?

Is it a concert ? Or i thought they were worship team.

2 Pet 2

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you