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 Falling Oil Prices - Where it leaves Malaysia, Not too bad afterall

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AVFAN
post Jan 14 2015, 07:35 PM

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nice of u to start this thread.

i'll just say a few things...

... actually, i think our gomen never dreamed about the scenario where oil can be usd45 as seen by the 110 used in 2015 budget. so, there u have it - our "brightest" brains at work. ya, now, maybe frantically to do a new budget with 80? i hv done many budgets n i can say i hate to do one with a 30 or 50% cut in 30% of the revenues!

.. net importer or exporter, hmm... this one, who knows unless the civil servants collecting data are doing their job and show us. but the chart in the article is flawed - it is in barrels and not in usd or rm. msia export light crude of a higher value and import heavy crude with a lower value. the real figures aren't there.

.. petrol subsidy may have been thrown out, but we still hv other subsidies. subsidies, special privileges, cash handouts, etc. distort the real economy. so, even if we benefit from low oil price as an importer, there is no telling where the benefits go. more so when gomen can, at the stroke of a pen, remove this or that, or add this or that. what if they impose a new petrol tax to collect more revenues? or create half a million new jobs out of the blue?

... i like to think int'l markets are efficient. if the out-of-country brains think and did what they did recently and now - selling bursa stocks, rm going 3.60/usd, we conclude external parties do not see it as positive, at least not for the time being.

.. perhaps it is temp, not enough facts, too much bs floated around. or we simply don't even know!!

just a few thoughts of my own....

This post has been edited by AVFAN: Jan 14 2015, 07:36 PM
AVFAN
post Jan 14 2015, 10:11 PM

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QUOTE(dreamer101 @ Jan 14 2015, 09:51 PM)
    B) Cut spending SUBSTANTIALLY
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this one is contentious...

likely cut all... except the really wasteful ones incl the notorious year-after year-nobody-does-nothing highlighted by a-g.
AVFAN
post Jan 17 2015, 07:08 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Jan 16 2015, 08:34 AM)
Its too late to react now. If you haven't done anything to spread your risk previously, all you can do is just sit back and watch. And possibly just hope for the best.

Investment is about risk management. Not putting all eggs into 1 basket. It is a long term planning. Get your portfolio balanced in both your home country and overseas assets. So that currency fluctuation will offset each other 90% of the time. Also get your portfolio to involve across the industries so that sectorial effect (like oil price slump now) will not have substantial effect overall.

My only weakness is the distrust in precious metal. Maybe it is good time to look into gold as everyone is avoiding it. I have a feeling that if Russia is kept victimised by the West, they can just "slip" a nuclear weapon to the terrorist and get it detonated in 1 of the oil producing country. Then all hell break lose and oil will be in $150 region and gold hit $3000. Just my conspiracy theory on a Friday... tongue.gif
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ya, kinda a little late at this time. but... one is never too late to do anything! still possible to act to protect a bit, spread it out a bit, some in foreign denominations. conspiracies theories aside, one's better off looking for answers to questions like... where r v heading longer term?

QUOTE(adamdacutie @ Jan 17 2015, 04:41 PM)
Shouldn't be too pessimistic about Malaysia ... Shall see the glimpse of light when crude price stabilizes ,Malaysia's fundamentals are not as bad as a decade ago , hope for a possible rebound after a bumpy ride
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i m not so sure if v r better off than in 1998... at that time, v may have less fx reserves but v dun hv almost a rm 1 trillion debt then.
while i do think crude n cpo will stabilize n firm in the next 24 months, what else do v hv besides this hope - some producers will cut production or the rest of the world will consume more oil? manage the nation by "hope"?

where is the self help? that is, cut back on expense n wastage, projects n plans to increase production/productivity? i hardly hear of investments in agri or factories these days. only more wastage (n nobody does nothing), "funds dunno gone where", more taxes, gst...

pardon me if i m in the minority who just don't see "how things can improve by doing nothing".


added, good read:
long article by sam chee kong on rm, usd, oil, debt, budget:
QUOTE


This post has been edited by AVFAN: Jan 17 2015, 11:34 PM
AVFAN
post Jan 18 2015, 09:35 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Jan 18 2015, 12:03 AM)
At 3.6-3.7 and oil at 40, how low further can it go ?
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this is the billion rm question, isn't it?!
i doubt anyone knows, not even bnm. but one can take a position, maybe as a hedge.
i m of the view the state of my's economy/rm is not all about oil.

a diff perspective.... when sgd=rm2.30, we thought it had gone far enough. then 2.50. now, almost 2.7.
how low can it go? 2.80, 3.0? or return to 2.50, 2.30? reasons?

QUOTE(Artus @ Jan 18 2015, 02:35 AM)
Our debt to gdp levels were far higher in the past:
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i don't know what gomen debt/gdp can really tell us.
might be more useful to look at total int/ext, public/private, gomen/household debt levels...?

This post has been edited by AVFAN: Jan 18 2015, 10:14 AM
AVFAN
post Jan 29 2015, 10:32 AM

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just for the record...

today:

crude = usd44.50

usd = rm3.6375
AVFAN
post Feb 4 2015, 06:38 PM

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well, some opec people say usd30-35 coming:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102389281

just for the record, today: oil usd52, rm/usd = 3.564.


i observe in the markets in the last couple of months:

oil price down=> rm down, bursa down... and... us stocks down.... but usd up
oil price up=>rm up, bursa up... and us stocks up... usd down

well, i m sure the relationships are dynamic and not that simple but what is the correct directional indicator(s)?

what is interesting is the issue whether msia is net oil exporter or net oil importer? seen some arguments going nowhere...
if really net oil importer, bursa and rm should gain handsomely when oil price go down - like we see in thailand, philippines and indonesia, no?

multiple choice:

a. it's all perception, msia is actually net importer, most parties are wrong, bursa and rm shud be flying
b. oil imports-exports are about balanced, effects can swing either way
c. it's not all about oil, many other factors just as impt.
d. all of the above
e. none of the above.

so many questions, no answers... laugh.gif

This post has been edited by AVFAN: Feb 4 2015, 06:59 PM
AVFAN
post Feb 4 2015, 11:24 PM

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QUOTE(supersound @ Feb 4 2015, 08:40 PM)
Depends how we see it.
With a GTL plant in Bintulu, we are exporter.
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the subject of the thread is oil, not petroleum. and i was refering to oil.

najib had said msia is net oil importer but net petroleum exporter if gas included.

dreamer is right, gas-oil prices not necessarily tightly correlated.

it is the possibility of lower gas prices that will might drive trade balance to a deficit, alto many think wun happen.



but the original question still remains - is msia a net oil (the black gold, not gas) importer or exporter? hmm.gif

This post has been edited by AVFAN: Feb 4 2015, 11:25 PM
AVFAN
post Feb 5 2015, 01:53 AM

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QUOTE(supersound @ Feb 5 2015, 01:21 AM)
Is break even if excluding LNG. They never disclose the LNG's volume sold. So you do the maths.
Crude oil = petroleum. LNG is hydrocarbon. Crude oil are composition of hydrocarbon.
Since you are talking about trade, now here's the catch :
Tapis, Bintulu, Labuan, Kidorong are some of the petroleum we are exporting out. In average, Tapis are at least 20% more expensive than Brent or WTI due to it is the sweetest in the world while others are at least 10% more expensive. Most of the petroleum dig out from Malaysian sea are sweet.
Petroleum from Middle East are at least 20% more cheaper than Brent or WTI but very high sulphur content, this is the rubbish we are buying and process it to products and sell to us. That's the reason why other countries already on Euro4 but we are still at Euro2.
So, we are exporting 90000t(example) and we import 95000t. By volume looks like we are "net" importer, but considering the money, we are exporter.
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apologies... the word "petroleum" was used differently in his speech. he used rm figures, not tonnes. lng was not in his numbers.

here:
QUOTE
We are a crude oil exporter. Thus, when oil prices plummeted recently, there was a perception that export receipts will also decline drastically and result in a current account deficit.

Indeed, this perception is not correct. As a net crude oil exporter, we had a surplus of RM7.7bil from January to November 2014.However, we are an importer of petroleum products with a net import bill of RM8.9bil during the same period.

If we include both crude oil and petroleum products, we are actually a net importer with a deficit of RM1.2bil.

Therefore, the perception that Malaysia is a large oil producer is also not true.However, if we factor in exports and imports of crude oil, and nett out petroleum products, then Malaysia is a net importer of petroleum. This does not include LNG, for which Malaysia is a net exporter.
https://dinmerican.wordpress.com/2015/01/21...-budget-speech/

so, he is saying msia is net crude oil exporter, net petroleum importer, excluding lng.

ok, that makes sense but wait... still some are disagreeing...!
http://www.focusmalaysia.my/Markets/Has%20...rter%20of%20oil?


well, importer or exporter, oil or petroleum products or gas, we do know rm and bursa falls when oil prices goes down. we'll see it again tmrw since crude price has dropped 7% within the last 24 hrs.

This post has been edited by AVFAN: Feb 5 2015, 01:58 AM
AVFAN
post Feb 5 2015, 02:01 AM

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QUOTE(supersound @ Feb 5 2015, 01:59 AM)
Najib's word can be trusted?
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laugh.gif
AVFAN
post Feb 5 2015, 02:09 PM

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QUOTE(nexona88 @ Feb 5 2015, 01:05 PM)
Okay I give up.. don't care if Malaysia is Net Importer or Exporter.. that's one gomen problem yawn.gif

Main Concern is Lower oil price bad for M'sia Gomen, Lower RM etc.  but good for rakyat bcoz lower retail fuel price..

bad thing about weaker RM is higher cost of doing Intl Trade   cry.gif
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ya, never mind importer, exporter or pure waster! tongue.gif

for rakyat... bottomline, cheaper petrol is just about the only benefit. i just filled up since price went down. yes, nice to pay so much less for my tank.

i only wish tnb rates can go down like that too and why not? but... that is some other unique boland story unlikely to change, so little hope there.

other things... can expect double whammy with weak rm + looming gst - from coffee and beef to ipads and tires, it's going to get a lot costlier. older folks with small life savings in rm may find it esp difficult.



so, back to thread subject - are we better off with falling oil prices?

from usd110 to now 48. will we like it more if usd40 or 35?! laugh.gif

This post has been edited by AVFAN: Feb 5 2015, 02:16 PM
AVFAN
post Feb 5 2015, 07:04 PM

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QUOTE(supersound @ Feb 5 2015, 05:36 PM)
The question now is, when oil price high and government's income are higher, do we get benefits from it?
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i was about to say...

oil price stagnant, oil price up, oil price down... rakyat gets f'ed overall as usual, nothing changes.

but don't we already know...?? tongue.gif
AVFAN
post Feb 5 2015, 07:38 PM

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cry, laugh, shake head, whatever...

really, it all converges on a single message so eloquently described by dreamer (pardon me for invoking u but pls see it as some recognition!) : are u ready for the finale?

it may not be that far off, i fear...



thanks for all input, thanks for participating in this thread! wink.gif
AVFAN
post Feb 11 2015, 06:03 PM

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oil prices weakening again after firming a few days.

for the record... today usd1=rm3.60, again... oil usd50 going lower...

msia is definitely "net oil exporter" - rm goes lower with lower oil price, every time!


one sector getting hit partly by weak rm:

QUOTE
KUALA LUMPUR: Rising newsprint prices resulting from the weakening ringgit appear to be the least of the media sector’s problems as falling circulation and advertising expenditure (adex) threaten a shakeup in some listed press groups. - See more at: http://www.theantdaily.com/Main/Media-grou...h.hw5THeMc.dpuf


This post has been edited by AVFAN: Feb 11 2015, 07:44 PM
AVFAN
post Feb 12 2015, 11:04 PM

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QUOTE(langstrasse @ Feb 12 2015, 07:30 PM)
On the long run this episode of low oil prices would be a good thing for Malaysia - because we'd be forced to not be so dependent on oil production as a country. This is a painful pill to swallow but the patient needs it badly.
We need to diversify and develop other industries as well.
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theoretically, academically n philosphically, that is correct and noble.

however, given how the annual budgets are drafted, spent or overspent every year, the consequences of sustained low oil price will be very severe, i dare not even think what they might be.

just think where all the money for the "usual expense" will come from... it will have to be either increased taxes or debt. how much more tax n debt can the people take? ohmy.gif

this is going to be difficult for all. more so when no one incl our leaders in power seem to even consider this scenario until now!
AVFAN
post Feb 18 2015, 09:59 AM

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QUOTE(AVFAN @ Jan 29 2015, 10:32 AM)
just for the record...
today:
crude = usd44.50
usd = rm3.6375
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QUOTE(AVFAN @ Feb 4 2015, 06:38 PM)
just for the record, today: oil usd52, rm/usd = 3.564.
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QUOTE(AVFAN @ Feb 11 2015, 06:03 PM)
for the record... today usd1=rm3.60, again... oil usd50 going lower...
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today:
oil usd54, usd1=rm 3.595.

maybe too early to say, but is rm now getting weaker despite oil some price recovery? hmm.gif
AVFAN
post Feb 19 2015, 09:46 AM

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QUOTE(Sesshoumaru @ Feb 18 2015, 08:44 PM)
Of course there is a relation. If perception is that Malaysia is dependent on oil revenue, and oil prices drop, what does that say about the economy and other fundamentals of the country?
Think about it from an investor point of view. What are you going to do if a country you are investing in, potentially is heading down south and even risks of a sovereign rating cut from the rating agencies?
What happened to the Russia ruble?
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QUOTE(Sesshoumaru @ Feb 19 2015, 04:42 AM)
Focus on the reason why you made that statement. The other posters are NOT wrong to say that the USDMYR is currently BROADLY co-related (with some deviations, but typically reasons of such would be available only to those in the industry) with oil prices.
When oil price is USD120 per barrel, from an exchange rate regime people just see that there's no issue relating to oil prices for foreign investors to start selling their MGS. If in that scenario, Malaysia handle the increased revenue well, economic data is good, foreign investors flock in thus strengthening MYR.
In short: Strength of the local currency is very much RELATED to oil prices.
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i tend to agree with yr statements.

while oil is not the only factor, the perception and hence investor actions are such - low oil price, lower oil prcoeeds, lower gomen income, incr fiscal budget deficit, mgs rises, money outflows, rm depr.

but what i am thinking is whether the situation is currently much further aggravated by the weak positions of other things particularly falling cpo exports, the 1mdb blackholes and a general public pessimism of the effects of the coming gst. all that may drive the rm further down in the months ahead - even if oil price recover to usd60-65. and if oil price returns to 40-45, the rm might dive very quickly...?


a contrasting case is indonesia. it has long became net oil importer. at this time, it is clearly benefiting from low oil price; stock market at record high; current/expected indon inflation lower than msia; rupiah is relatively stronger than the rm.

This post has been edited by AVFAN: Feb 19 2015, 10:08 AM
AVFAN
post Feb 19 2015, 07:31 PM

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QUOTE(Sesshoumaru @ Feb 19 2015, 03:59 PM)
The day to day pricing of USDMYR is rather interesting to say the least. Since the beginning of this year, it has been mostly volatile. Yes the 1MDB issues does cause some concerns, and it swings because of it. 1MDB loan about to blow up? MYR down. 1MDB repaid? MYR up (but also because AK did the repayment in USD, so there was a MASSIVE sell down of USD in the market. If oil prices come to 40-45, it's possible for it to head towards 3.73, a level seen during the financial crisis period (2009). Something to note: A big portion of the movement in USDMYR so far, is due to offshore funds, with huge amounts of $$$. What's driving the movement of USDMYR is not directly what you and me think about the economy with personal experience (unless you have hundreds of millions of $$$, not me definitely), it is those with money. You exit 1 mio USD? Not a dent in the rate. You exit 100 mio USDMYR? Market will react.

In general, though, the weakening of MYR is not entirely MYR's fault. USD itself has been strong, with hypes over them increasing interest rates in the 2nd half of this year. They are the current big block that is recovering together with the UK, while the rest is still on the south like Europe or Japan (and hence their massive QE). Buying EUR or JPY now, is cheaper then if you were to compare it against it a year ago.

On Indonesia, I'm still going towards hedging Rupiah receivable exposures for Malaysian-based corporate. I have been advising my customers as such for a while now, and still am. Short-term fluctuations are expected, but long term we have seen IDR dipping a whole lot against MYR. I'm lazy to open my Bloomberg now, so this will do.

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=IDR&to=MYR&view=10Y

Anyways, Happy CNY and Gong Xi Fa Cai all. Spent too much time then I'd like on this anyways. Facing this sort of discussions everyday with my corporate customers is not enough, no, I have to continue this in LYN.
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thanks for yr insightful comments, probably the most meaningful to me in this thread so far.

while u hv professional exposure to the subject, my understanding and questions are simply based on what i read and experience in the context of my personal investments. i appreciate u took time to comment, so thanks!

3.73... alright, i'll keep that in mind. i was actually wondering if 3.80 is possible since all the prime factors considered, none of them seem to be working for but only against the rm - oil price, cpo price, budget deficit, debt levels, fdi, mgs yield, consumer confidence, etc... tongue.gif

indon rupiah... i only notice it did badly over the last couple of years (like other emerging markets) but has done well over the last 2-3 months, relative to the mighty usd and rm. it dipped just a few days ago due to int rate cut - that, we know, of course.

which brings me the urge to ask if u see any possibility, any room, for bnm to cut int rates by say 25bps before year end? would consumer spending post-gst, assuming current unfavorable conditions persisting, be weak enough for bnm to cut rates to spur spending again, despite all other "dangers" surrounding such a move? thanks.

This post has been edited by AVFAN: Feb 19 2015, 07:47 PM
AVFAN
post Feb 19 2015, 11:03 PM

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QUOTE(Sesshoumaru @ Feb 19 2015, 09:42 PM)
3.73 is but a big psychological level in the mind of the market. It represents an invisible 'resistance' which if broken, would open the gateway to further rallying. Most of the factors you mentioned are economic data, and yes the interbank players do watch those, ESPECIALLY data from the US. Key events/data such as FOMC and NFP (Non-farm payroll as a proxy for unemployment) will move the market, typically how it works is this:

1) Market has an expectation before the event, and prices ahead of it
2) Actual data released
3) Market reacts to the data relative to the expectation. Also, to specific statements or keywords. E.g. Market first reacted when Janet Yellen used the word 'patient' when it comes to rate hike

If you do get access to a Bloomberg terminal, go to the page "ECO" to check out market expectations of each upcoming data release.

So let's talk about in Malaysia context. Just several months back analysts were gunning for a rate hike, but the situation has changed quite a bit.

From a broad, fundamental, qualitative perspective - I see rates as strongly neutral on rates (OPR), perhaps leaning towards a rate cut a little. The current oil situation creates a catch-22 for BNM. I increase rates, I kill my domestic spending. I cut rates, I encourage further outflow of funds from Malaysia, weakening MYR even further. The previous MPC in January didn't tell us much except 'continue to monitor the situation', so market is still rather neutral on this.

From a technical, quantitative perspective - MGS yields/Swap rates, KLIBOR, doesn't seem to indicate any consistent, potential rate changes yet [except for KLIBOR 3M, but that is a specific story why there was such a major increase last quarter 2014 but is now dropping. If you truly are interested in the financial world, see if you can google why or get it through your banking contacts]. So, nothing for the time being as well.

Little tip - look at Malaysia Interest Rate Swap rate against KLIBOR, and then look at US Interest Rate Swap rates against LIBOR. You will see a noticeable difference between the 2 sets of data, and that difference signifies the different level of rate expectations between the 2 countries.
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again, thanks for yr insights. really appreciate it.

alto i do not hv a bloomberg terminal, i do read bloomberg/cnbc sites all the time. and yes, i am slowly getting to follow the "expectations-actual-reaction" process, esp how hawkish or dovish the fomc minutes/yellen comments will eventually impact markets.

about klibor/interbank rates, again, yes, i noticed... even fd rates start to spring up with all kinds of promotions, which is rather unusual, i find. really... is there some liquidity issue here?

again, appr yr valuable comments. btw, i m not a finance/economics person by training or trade... so, do excuse me if i had used the wrong terms or got certain things grossly wrong! biggrin.gif just trying to understand the impt basics better for self help.

This post has been edited by AVFAN: Feb 19 2015, 11:11 PM
AVFAN
post Feb 20 2015, 11:10 AM

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QUOTE(Sesshoumaru @ Feb 20 2015, 09:37 AM)
Sure, take a look at recent news. http://www.thestar.com.my/Business/Busines...ared/?style=biz

See how they spoke off expectations again (estimated)? It actually applies to other aspects of life, not just financial markets. People buying ahead of GST, why, they expect prices to go up. Insurance premium being charged higher if you are older/smoke/drink etc., why, they expect a higher chance of you claiming.

I'm quite impressed you even noticed how FD rates were increasing and you could give me a keyword - liquidity. Many in my own industry don't even realise KLIBOR 3m and above has been inching up. Let's take it a step further, what was recently introduced in terms of banking compliance, all around the world?

That's okay, not having a background in finance/economics. It applies to all of us, day to day. The time will come where you will be having millions of dollars, and what to do with it will depend on your financial knowledge.
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thanks again.

u mean basel3? dunno much about it, but is it voluntary or mandatory in m'sia? so, the rise in short term rates incl fd's was primarily due to some scramble to meet basel3? stabilizing soon?

right... we all hope to be just clever enough not to lose our blood-sweat-tears savings to some crook or bad policies... or worse, wrong understanding! laugh.gif

This post has been edited by AVFAN: Feb 20 2015, 11:24 AM
AVFAN
post Feb 23 2015, 10:39 AM

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with rm, go abroad for holidays incl thailand, paying foreign education fees... is getting tougher and tougher, no respite...

QUOTE
Little respite for the ringgit
Monday, 23 February 2015
BY: IZWAN IDRIS

PETALING JAYA: Cheap airfare is a boon for holidaymakers going overseas, but Malaysians can’t help but feel a little short-changed after a trip to money changers.

Take the Thai baht, which had advanced 13.2% over the past six months. At 8.93 last week, the baht is at its most expensive against the ringgit since 2007.

Jakarta would have been a cheaper destination, currency wise, as the rupiah performance was tempered by Bank Indonesia’s unexpected interest rate cut last Tuesday. At current exchange rate, you can get around 3,500 rupiah for one ringgit. Six months ago, one ringgit will buy you 3,650 rupiah.

Hong Kong, a favourite shopping destination for many Malaysian, has become 15% more expensive since August last year. The Hong Kong dollar is pegged to the US dollar, against which the ringgit had weakened to 3.647 on Wednesday, before the market closed for the Chinese New year holidays.

At that level, the ringgit was at a five-year low against the greenback. CIMB Research said the ringgit was likely to hold above 3.70 against the US dollar.

And unlike during the 1990’s financial crisis, Malaysia’s economy continues to be resilient, despite falling oil prices and a surge of foreign outflow.

Bank Negara will release its mid-monthly foreign exchange reserves report later this week, which would probably show another decline. But with more than US$100bil in foreign exchange stockpile, the central bank has the firepower to keep currency speculators at bay.

Analysts, however, expect little respite for the ringgit this year, as the US Federal Reserve moves ever closer towards raising interest rate for the first time in almost a decade.

Meanwhile, a growing number of central banks is cutting interest rates and watching their currencies fall against the strong US dollar.

Indonesia was the most recent among Asian countries to lower its domestic interest rate. Singapore in January loosen its monetary policy to keep its currency low.

China and India have already lowered their rates. Analysts believe Thailand might also jump on the easing bandwagon soon.

The baht, compared with the weak ringgit, had been surprisingly strong, easing just 1.3% against the US dollar over the same six month period.

It has been one of Asia’s best performing currencies, despite a military coup last year and weak growth that normally scare away investors. A factor that is helping the Thai economy is plunging crude oil prices.

This is a contrast compared with Malaysia, which is viewed as oil-based economy. Petroleum income makes up about a third of the Government’s annual budget revenue.

The Government, in January, was forced to review its spending for this year to keep the target of gradually reducing the country’s budget deficit intact, as the sliding crude oil hurt revenue.

As the ringgit performance is locked to oil prices, expect more volatility ahead.

As it is, the turmoil in the currency market has pushed up the cost of overseas holiday and the price of imported goods for Malaysians. But some economists reckon that the cheaper ringgit is not all that bad.

The weaker ringgit, driven largely by falling price of crude oil, might help buffer the economy from job losses and a slowdown in growth.

Palm oil producers, which are enjoying a relatively stable price of crude palm oil in the international market, are effectively given the boost from the weak ringgit.

Other exporters, like manufacturer of rubber gloves, are also prime beneficiaries.
http://www.thestar.com.my/Business/Busines...ggit/?style=biz


now, add this:
QUOTE


This post has been edited by AVFAN: Feb 23 2015, 01:54 PM

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