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> Military Thread V12, 31/8 Merdeka; 16/9 Malaysia Day

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Frozen_Sun
post May 29 2014, 10:50 AM

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QUOTE(LTZ @ May 29 2014, 10:48 AM)
I dont know can answer or not
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Then the answer is......... whistling.gif
Frozen_Sun
post May 31 2014, 09:24 AM

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QUOTE(thpace @ May 31 2014, 03:46 AM)
everywhere in SEA got new militray purchase, we are one of the only that have not done any significant purchase apart from the Gowind purchase

but from the rumored gowind specs, kinda a little disappointment that it cant even afford a proper ciws for that kind of price
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So many list to buy but no money spared by govement  cry.gif
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Again...AV8 project is way too expensive. With $2.4 billion, that's equal to $10 million per vehicle, more expensive than the most expensive MBTs in the market, K2 and Leclerc.

Is it really necessary to spend that much on the R&D of an APC platform?


APCs are disposable assets in the battlefield. Like relatively high destruction rate of M113 in Vietnam and BTRs in Afghanistan. APCs are supposed to be cheap and no one would expect them to last long in more intense engagements.


As comparison, Indonesia modifies the basic VAB design.
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It becomes Anoa, the gun turret is move behind the driver to provide more room and make RCWS installation easier. Also an extra pair of wheels are added. Including weapons, Anoa only costs $800,000 and multiple variants have been developed.
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Yes....the interior is simple; just like a truck with navigation, communication and perhaps BMS in some units. But at least it is cheap, won't miss it if a couple of them destroyed in battles.

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This post has been edited by Frozen_Sun: May 31 2014, 09:25 AM
Frozen_Sun
post May 31 2014, 10:39 AM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 31 2014, 09:52 AM)
K2 in early production cost more than usd15mil.
now they manage to drive it down toward usd9mil depending on equipment adding on.
Amx still farking expensive fully equip with all the gadget it will cost you around usd27mil

As for AV8 the biggest problem it have is to developed 12 variants in one go. That crazy and over ambitious, it certainly will drive up the cost significantly.
too many variant; too little on economy of scale.
Apparently those who involved in these deal forget that we are not US.

Well currently APC is no longer cheaps as it use to be, now it developed into a whole new level of ifv, take cv90s or amv for example it take them billions of dollars to developed into current level.

Lastly I dun think it fairs to compare anoa and av8.
Av8 is on different level in term of protection, situation awareness, ncw, weapons, and role in the battlefield.
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Yes...Anoa is more like a cold-war APC platform, comparable to M113 and BTR-60. While AV8, is from a new generation of APC, placed in the same category with Stryker and Terrex.

But these new vehicles still carry the same APC genetics; simply different species from the "APC genus". Expensive APCs are ideal only for countries with huge military budget.

The job remains the same, transport troops safely and protect them from small arms fire and mortar shrapnel; also providing basic fire support. These functions can be achieved by older platforms that cost less than $1 million. Larger proportion of APCs are usually destroyed in conflicts, they should be "disposable" and cheap.

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Indonesia will convert an infantry brigade (3 battalions) into mechanized units in East Java alone with Anoa. This can be achieved relatively quickly, because Anoa is cheap and simple. But still provides basic capabilities for mechanized units.

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http://www.antarajatim.com/lihat/berita/13...ekanik-di-jatim

This post has been edited by Frozen_Sun: May 31 2014, 10:40 AM
Frozen_Sun
post May 31 2014, 10:47 AM

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QUOTE(azriel @ May 31 2014, 10:41 AM)
The question is does Boustead really need an upgrade?

Remember PT.PAL also is in a Tot Scheme with Damen for building the Sigma PKR 10514 with a 2 ships programme. PT.PAL didn't need any upgrades to it's shipyard. The only thing that PT.PAL need is to build is for the submarine facility & machines for the korean sub.
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Four modules are built by PT PAL....2 have been confirmed. Rumors say that up to 6 units will be built.

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Frozen_Sun
post May 31 2014, 12:02 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 31 2014, 11:05 AM)
well depend on doctrine for apc.
Some treat it as low cost disposable battle taxi but it only apply on those whose have large quantities of infantry.
some prefer high qualities of apc and ifv to provide valuable fire support, intel, scouts, anti tank, anti air and protection for its infantry.
lots of country going toward quality values

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Perhaps, it is the matter where we should prioritize quality...on APC, artillery or tank?

One AV8 is equal in cost to two units of Leopard 2RI. The tank is one of the ground assets with high technological quality.

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Again, I know we shouldn't compare MBT with APC. But, the money should be spent accordingly to get the biggest bang for the buck.
103 Leopard 2 and 50 marder IFV for less than $300 million. Also, to mechanize one infantry battalion, TNI only needs to spend $45 million with simpler APCs.

Instead of buying AV8, perhaps Malaysia could settle with building simpler APCs and use the spare cash to buy other quality stuff instead, like more artillery, ATGM and tank


Frozen_Sun
post May 31 2014, 12:52 PM

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QUOTE(heavyduty @ May 31 2014, 12:29 PM)
AV8 is supposed to be backbone for the 'future' malaysian army.the condor is old as shit but still workable

why would the MA buy something that would be obsolete once its on the ground?the AV-8 is going to be the main vehicle for the next 30-40 years

the Anoa was developed out of desperation.they needed an APC that could be made quick and cheap,doesnt care if its shit

can something like the anoa provide a cheap solution to the condor?yes for the immediate future.is it any better than the condor?no

TNI wants to establish more motorized units,thus it can be understandable for them to use the Anoa.the MA is trying to move forward to a new phase of fighting capability,the cheap Anoa is not what they need

btw,as a vehicle commander the notion that IFVs are disposable is  doh.gif  doh.gif  doh.gif
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The question is.... "Is expensive, next generation APC really necessary?"

Anoa could already protect troops from small arms fire/shrapnel, provide basic fire support and feature BMS for command versions for $800,000. Those are basic requirements of APCs.

Would AV8 really make difference in battlefield, compared if Malaysian Army uses APCs based on simpler designs? Especially when facing infantry units equipped with light ATGM like NLAW?

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This post has been edited by Frozen_Sun: May 31 2014, 12:53 PM
Frozen_Sun
post May 31 2014, 02:43 PM

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QUOTE(heavyduty @ May 31 2014, 01:01 PM)
if the AV8 provides better protection,better fire support and better C&C then yes

the presence of ATGMs doesnt mean APCs need to be fodder.tanks are just as susceptible to anti armour fire

why provide soldiers with body armour,helmets and NODs while snipers could take them out?
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How much better protection, fire support and C&C AV8 will have? Do they worth the high cost?


Frozen_Sun
post May 31 2014, 08:25 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ May 31 2014, 03:39 PM)
that depend on how you look at it.
I will write down the main spec.

Armor
It will 360° protection against 12.7mm caliber ap round.
AV8 C4ISR systems - Thales
HF and VHF radio communications system - STE
OICS - Thales VSys-net
optronics - Thales Catherine XP, DNGS TI and Sophie TAS/C

Variant

Surveillance - Rheinmetall Vingtaqs II (€36mil for development, intergration, documentation, training and equipment) 24unit
Two men turrets, atgm, rws - denel G130, G130+Ingwe atgm system, denel rws (€340mil include intergration, development, documentation, training and atgm missile) 178units.

There are still a few more varianta not much news I have on its.
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Any prediction, how much each unit of AV8 will actually cost, excluding R&D and infrastructure costs. Let's say the there will be 2nd batch production.
Frozen_Sun
post Jun 1 2014, 01:54 AM

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QUOTE(KYPMbangi @ May 31 2014, 10:00 PM)
We'll never know until deftech start the production of these machines
But in terms of estimation, a baseline pure apc FNSS Pars 8x8 "long-wheelbase version" (without weapons) would cost $800,000, so go figure

Malaysian 8x8 evaluation phase
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From left to right,
APC PIRANHA III - $1,200,000
PARS 8X8 - $1,000,000
ROSOMAK - $2,900,000
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I think AV8 in its full-feature version will cost nearly $5 million. Belgium purchased 242 Piranha III for $1 billion in 2005, or around $4 million each. Stryker costs $5 million each; so this is the proper price for next-generation APCs
Frozen_Sun
post Jun 2 2014, 08:21 AM

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QUOTE(Nannostomuss @ Jun 2 2014, 01:32 AM)
Indonesia is definitely not in a position to execute an incursion on foreign soil. Yes, they are on shopping spree but the quantity is way inadequate to protect their territories. Their military in general couldnt even form an effective expeditionary force which requires a sizable airlift and sea lift to different part of the region within shortest possible notice. Luckily, like 191 member nations across the world which are under the umbrella of United Nation, emphasis on economy, wide spread social media for sympathy. Otherwise, Singapore would have shot down all their planes and sank their fleet and taking Riau Peninsula from the Indonesian.

Anyway big country is not invincible. History has proven, when JPN annihilated the Chinese air power and raped Chinese cities apart. The Chinese do not have the capability to resist simply because naval power was like almost from little to none and they possessed limited air power. If SG decided to whack Indonesia for some apparent reasons, Indonesia will probably be experiencing what the Chinese experienced in WW2. Personally i think its unlike to happen.
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Actually, Indonesia has an aspiration to become the strongest militarily in the region, even outgunning Australia. Although, may never be as strong as China and India.

According to Citigroup projection, Indonesia will become 4th largest economy in 2050. Other financial organizations have varying projections, but the lowest rank is 6th position in 2050.

Year 2050 (in billion)
China 205,321
India 180,490
United States 83,805
Indonesia 45,901

If it maintains 0.8% GDP for defense budget...equal to $360 billion.

Some people could be somewhat skeptical about this, but if someone prophesied in 1998 that Indonesia will become the 10th largest economy in 16 years according to World Bank, everyone would roll on floor laughing out loud. But, it happens. smile.gif

Frozen_Sun
post Jun 2 2014, 07:19 PM

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QUOTE(hecklaine @ Jun 2 2014, 03:32 PM)
invade who? msia? no lar, msia and singapore is important for indon economy, and indon govt now taking economy seriously
just hope next indon leader is not someone crazy ultranationalist leader  sweat.gif
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Prabowo, the former special forces commander is likely the one. The latest Tanjung Datu incident just bring more support to him.......

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Frozen_Sun
post Jun 3 2014, 10:27 AM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ Jun 2 2014, 10:54 PM)

7. AEW

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Frozen_Sun
post Jun 3 2014, 10:45 AM

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QUOTE(KYPMbangi @ Jun 3 2014, 10:35 AM)
Photoshop detected

Ini baru ori, but surely cannot buy cuz israel tech
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Erieye is always the most sensible....but it doesn't have full 360-scanning coverage. Too bad Russian doesn't have something similar to Hawkeye or Elta's rotodome radar. Would be nice if Russian's lightweight AEW platform can be datalinked with Flankers family.

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Frozen_Sun
post Jun 3 2014, 12:06 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ Jun 3 2014, 11:12 AM)
I read on a magazine two years ago they are updating the radar improve coverage to 360° and reduce some of its blind spot.
Perhaps it still under development.  hmm.gif
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Should be no problem if the Erieye makes 360-degree turn every 5 minutes, as long as one of its main radar lobes is pointed on most probable enemy approach routes
Frozen_Sun
post Jun 3 2014, 12:57 PM

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QUOTE(yinchet @ Jun 3 2014, 12:10 PM)
Iirc they are adding more cell module into the radar hence increase in coverage and reduce in blind spot.
They even will upgrade several thing like the mission computer, ew and so on.
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radar module/emitter should be placed on the front of main radar assembly for forward scanning and on the aircraft's tail for rearward scanning
Frozen_Sun
post Jun 4 2014, 11:10 AM

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Indonesia will have at least a total of 18 mechanized infantry battalions based on Anoa APC...out of 100 infantry battalions in TNI-AD. There are currently 3 in Kodam Jaya (Jakarta), three are being converted in Kodam Brawijaya (East Java)...that will require nearly 1000 Anoa, about USD 800 million total.

http://www.antaranews.com/berita/437162/tn...s-di-tiap-kodam

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Current mechanized units are based on 200 AMX VCI
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Other variants

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Mortar carrier
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This post has been edited by Frozen_Sun: Jun 4 2014, 12:44 PM
Frozen_Sun
post Jun 4 2014, 07:24 PM

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Amphibious armor assault in Latihan Gabungan 2014

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Frozen_Sun
post Jun 4 2014, 07:27 PM

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Heliborne assault, with locally-built Bell 412

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Frozen_Sun
post Jun 4 2014, 07:31 PM

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Anoa in action

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Frozen_Sun
post Jun 5 2014, 02:05 PM

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Airborne and heliborne operation in Latihan Gabungan 2014

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This post has been edited by Frozen_Sun: Jun 5 2014, 02:06 PM

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