Anyone got altar at their home? need some advise how to set it up.

Is there any store in P.J?

Thanks.

I found this melody from the strangest source... Rero Rero Rero

It's nice to hear Jewish folk music. Gives you an idea of how they worship back in the day

oh! they moved this here.........

  wonder if this thread might get more exposure under Serious Kopitiam. well......admins decide.........

   
    how ironic to see the Atheist & Agnostics thread sitting side by side 

  pains me to read the thread over thr & some questions that go through my mind while reading those posts :

  - God draws to Him whom he wills
  - hardening of the heart
  - the chosen ones
  - they think we are brainwashed while on the other hand, we think they're not enlightened & lost   

    lets discuss...........

Thank for the advise.

i know we are just human and we make mistakes. But the thing here is, pastors are now using this "FOCUS ON GOD, NOT ON US"...credo to justify their actions and to continue with structural flaws at church.

Its just another way of saying "we are not bothered to improve ourselves, overcome any weaknesses we encounter whether its a political or organisation problem".

Just like the example of my friend who is a buil;ding committee at a big church. He grown disillusion with the leadership when they pound him with this credo.."we are not perfect, we should not fight, we should be peacemakers, we should focus on god".

then it became very clear the church was abusing funds to build a monolith building that they don't really need. Waste of funds ! Mismanagement. Luckily he left the church to another church, rather than to be a complete zombie follower.

There is another church in cheras, where they got over 50 young adults...but the leader rich businessman there, controls it with an iron fist with his 12 brainwashed followers. People go there, to serve serve and serve - no happiness and joy out of that. If some new guy came and wanted to just have a nice conversation, they just not layan him, want to play politics. The leader there say this is not a social club...of course not lah, but why make the whole place so unpleasant, and they usually will target those they don't like, be unfriendly to force that person out by attrition.

come on lah, even to serve also..cannot laugh meh? i am sure god want you all to enjoy what you doing mah...if like what unknown warrior say he joy in his suffering, why don't bring a bed of nails to go to church to worship...then sit on it, and sing song...more joy meh?

thought that your bible say the house of god is for everybody...and based on what i heard from friends who spoke about jesus helping the lame, poor, the troubled people, isn't christianity is about kindness and care for everybody?

not being wicked and mistreat others that you don't like.

when i was first invited with some people into that church, i knoew something was wrong, i had a hunch...after two meetings i never came back because first me no christian but second they are the most unfriendliest SOB and arrogant ones i ever met.

they speak of pharisees, but they act like one.

and another favourite weapon they like to use is to say that people who criticize people are ones who are "hurt" by them...but for me, i only there for two meetings...how can this be?

they just wanna say stuff like that to slander the people who bring out truths about them. They try to label people who speak up as troublemakers.

its their favourite weapon.

i am not saying and i hope not all churches are like that. But i am sure christians will continue to improve themselves, and not try to use the word to deflect their flaws. I am also not saying all christians are like that..but i have met some really nasty ones.

i met one christian in my office, he thinks he is always right because he is a chrsitian and he thinks god is backing all his actions at all times.

but when i see him make errors in his work, he tend to hide them...not admitting them, use the excuse focus on god not on me...and he thinks he is right all the time.

i heard in his church got one christian girl that like him, she join his cell group when he is the cg leader...btw this guy is 35 years old. i made a joke one day, about this girl..and he straight away bad mouthed her. He hate her so much that he wished she disappeard from the face of the earth. He got his whole cg to ignore her and mistreat her..until she gave up going to cg.

Wtf? He preach good news and profess love for people, but he treat this girl like shiit. Not only that, he think he is very high standard. I make jokes with him about this girl and that girl, he say all ugly. Then he pointed out which girl he liked, when i saw their picture...walao, i knew his standard very high.

but he should look at himself in the mirror...he is bald guy not handsome, he dont' accept other people opinion, to him ah, when he say something he want people to listen to him. When girl like him, he go and reject her badly.

this kind of guy ah, when he meets some girl he likes, very sure karma will come back to him.

yeah that is the point. When you say "we focus on ourselves to make good deeds to close ranks over those who made the mistakes and not admit their mistakes"...that should be the spirit.

that would be the efforts that the christiian want to portray to show to the non christians that they are serious in improving ties and structural defects in their church. When one leader makes serious mistakes, others will close ranks and improve on that area.

i mean i always hear the christians complain about lack of religious freedom and about other pressure groups, but seriously when they look into their own churches, the way they handle things, its no different from those pressure groups.

when somebody brings up an issue, suddenly the person in the church becomes ex communicated and labeled as a troublemaker. no different then how those pressure groups are blaming christians for their problems.

christians always complain about persecution but at the same time laud persecution as a way to improve themselves under pressure...always using the term "refined by fire". But when persecution come, they complain complain, when i go to gym, i always notice the church near my gym, the members driving mercedes, bentleys and bmws...into the car park, enjoying such rich blessings. Wow, these days the christians of today enjoy such excellent lifes (in Malaysia) while their counterparts brethren in Iraq, Nigeria, Sudan, India (Dalits) face daily persecutions. Maybe the churches in msia has become too complacent and too wealthy to notice any self problem until they got too much free time that they start to play politics in their own backyard.

as a result we meet many over defensive and lack of self esteem christians that a little bit of comment (like Brusky)...they try to squeeze out the person and label him/her as troublemaker rather than make serious changes.

i thought the christians always laud when kena slap on the right cheek, offer the left side...but nowadays, you accidentaly say something, tthe christians come back in a tank to attack back...

gosh, that is a blast from the time when christians say their jesus used to help the poor, lame and handicap.

nowadays, the christians laugh at people with problems. Yeah, i have a pastor friend...when i go eat KFC with him, he starts to make jokes about those couples at the church that he is counselling. Bloody hell, no privacy at all ! He vividly even joke about how he counsel a couple to hug and kiss each other to make peace...when they were on the verge of divorce.

of course all church give to charity and to their mission people lah. but there is risk of abuse of funds because this is not audited.

like city harvest, i am very sure they give a lot to charity but recent case, they go and channel 25 mil for singing career.

who knows? there could have been more funds channeled elsewhere, we don't really know.

just like one church i heard, the committee go and arrange a youth camp, church gave them like 10k up front, then everytime got meeting, they go eat dim sum in jaya33...every weekend...charge out as food allowance...

ya think this is practical or not?

sure thing people are volunteering but ya think they should be using hard earn church contributi0on to go out makan good food?

of course pastors are human too, so they should be paid ok ok lar.

but in singapore some churches pay like $150,000 per year.

rich members sometime also very show off. Like this small church i told you, the rich businessman in auto spare part.. at first he stay in average house in cheras then he bought one giant 6 storey high house as big as football field.....with infinity swimming pool, invited all the youth to come like dam show off....now his house even bigger than the church.

what a waste of money..his family only 4 people plus his mother in law. Now his only son went to study overseas, big house for 3 people.

enjoy? more like showing off.

some more he dare to tell the youth to be humble and not to greed for money. What does he know about that? he born with silver spoon...never know the meaning of being poor.

he got his cohorts in his ministry. you think this guy is stupid? as I said he is surrounded by his supporters.

Those youths are brought up by their parents who are members of the church. The only close friends they got are part of that youth group, they won't be stupid to cross hairs with that businessman who is their leader. Say one word against him, they be excommunicated.

its like you going to a perkasa convention alone, and telling them that DAP are better than them.

so for me, when I see a church ministry with a bunch of ego jerks, best is I butt out. I think there is a proverb in your bible right? Don't throw your pearls at swines...they just trample all over it. So if I just speak out, they just be swines not listening to me and trample over my words.

But there are those who cross hairs with the businessman, he use attrition such as boycott, social outcast, ignore and put that person out of the activities list. He can do it because he got a core group of leaders to help him. I seen one Christian guy from Acts church just come over because he is the boyfriend of one of th church member, he was left sitting down doing nothing,nobody talk to him for the whole duration of the meeting. After a few meetings, he did not turn up, the businessman's tactic worked.

you think this is a rant?

you initially disagreed that there are the third type of super ego Christians, I merely set out to you examples. You forgot the initial topic of debate is it?

eh, did you exercise your brains today? you telling me to join their church to argue with them when I not Christian. Is like you join Perkasa to tell them to become Christians.

there is nothing in common I have with them.

Why I want to be a hero to people that I have nothing to common with and people who are sub human to me? I refuse to teach them about my values on humanity because I felt these kind of sub humans don't merit my help. I will only keep my knowledge to benefit more worthy mankind.

Again you get it all wrong. I am telling you of the third type of Christian. Its negative to you because you're being defensive. Now you are using fark words...why trying to show Christian machoness? Yeah I get that a lot...got one Christian guy he always invite me to sell insurance and force his advice down my throat...then when I disagree he start showing his true colors by using bad words. Sheesh, first they put up a shield of niceness but when they get frustrated..they try to act macho by saying the four letter word but they fumble...because it sounded like they never said it for years.

its a rant to you because you're getting defensive.

the only way for those jerks to buck up is to reduce their recruitment.

when people are aware which church are church of assssholes...they won't go there. then the leaders will start paying attention to the "spiritual" needs of their congregation than their own pockets or their own ego pride.

exactly what i am doing..i am creating awareness here to would be christians, new christians and non christians.

how can you help ego jerks? its like a robber want to rob a bank and u know about it...so you provide transport to the robber to rob bank? or course not...you tell everybody about the robber lah...or report to police...moral police.

then leonhart88 tell me to voice out to the robbers not to rob a bank...what is the point?

i go to the robbers and tell them..."hey don't rob the bank"...next thing they will show me their gun and tembak. Like throw pearls at swines that don't appreciate.

you sure or not,  thought your bible says somewhere...your great apostle james say something like, if you love your jesus, you would obey him, therefore if you still knowingly sin, you like again put your jesus on the cross over and over again. You willing to put your lord on the nail cross again?

also confession has to be extremely genuine...after you confess then you sin again...what is the point? Hey i not saying i perfect lah, even i admit i am very sinful person as well....but when pastors say you believe you are safe...they like saying so wat? continue sinning lah...you still be saved... then there is a misconception on confession, must you go to altar call to make confession? then where is in your bible say anything about getting slain in altar call? me not saying that altar call is wrong...but fact is you can make your confession via prayer right?

therefore, to disobey appear to show that the believer not really believe because believer still knowingly sin, knowingly sin show that the believer not so believe. believer who keep on disobeying, he show any love for his jesus or not? you ask yourself lah.

the pastors that teach these stuff, just want more people to join their congregation bigger and bigger, they only interested in the big church, big congregation. Quantity not quality..

thats why i heard from my same friend who works full time from a mega church, that his church of 4000 members, only 60% registered in cell group, registered as members even less.

People who have sin, we non christians are ok with as long as the person is humble and friendly thats important. The thing i don't like about certain christians, the third quality i spoke to you about is that these people tend to be very controlling type and don't accept that they made a mistake.

for you is one sided of course. Yours also one sided what...

but my side tend to be a third party independent view which would attract a lot of attention from non christians who thinks church give them new hope.

to join an abusive church is even more damaging. i am telling the non christians out there, once you join a church after a few months still feeling disillusion, butt out...there are so many churches out there you can join and different views.

what man's way? i am saying the principal...lu tak suka keluar lah...meaning to say...don't mingle in a church that doesn't support your growth..get out...

isn't that what happen to your spiritual ancestor jacob when israel was suffering from famine..that he and his family had to leave the promise land to go to egypt to rejoin his long lost son...?

isn't it god's way too to get out when situation there is untenable?

what man's way? i am saying the principal...lu tak suka keluar lah...meaning to say...don't mingle in a church that doesn't support your growth..get out...

isn't that what happen to your spiritual ancestor jacob when israel was suffering from famine..that he and his family had to leave the promise land to go to egypt to rejoin his long lost son...?

isn't it god's way too to get out when situation there is untenable?

you sure or not,  thought your bible says somewhere...your great apostle james say something like, if you love your jesus, you would obey him, therefore if you still knowingly sin, you like again put your jesus on the cross over and over again. You willing to put your lord on the nail cross again?

also confession has to be extremely genuine...after you confess then you sin again...what is the point? Hey i not saying i perfect lah, even i admit i am very sinful person as well....but when pastors say you believe you are safe...they like saying so wat? continue sinning lah...you still be saved... then there is a misconception on confession, must you go to altar call to make confession? then where is in your bible say anything about getting slain in altar call? me not saying that altar call is wrong...but fact is you can make your confession via prayer right?

therefore, to disobey appear to show that the believer not really believe because believer still knowingly sin, knowingly sin show that the believer not so believe. believer who keep on disobeying, he show any love for his jesus or not? you ask yourself lah.

the pastors that teach these stuff, just want more people to join their congregation bigger and bigger, they only interested in the big church, big congregation. Quantity not quality..

i saw a lot of new chrisitans wanting to look for church come here to ask about this church or that.

and non christians hoping for a new life, this forum probably give them encouragement to join church.

my message here is to warn them that the grass is not greenier on the other side. I want to prevent already hurt people who were abused, drug addicts, former prostitutes, destitutely poor from getting further hurt. I am in better position so its my social obligation to help. And don't teach me about giving aid, i know more than that than you. I've participated in buddhist societies to help the poor in Klang Bus Station area...i also help christians before in their aid to provide to Myanmmar refugees. I've gone to org asli area to assist christians to provide tution and edu aid even though i not chrsitian.

sometimes the church or hollywood tend to portray church going people as perfect, honest, friendly and give new hope in the newcomer.

but i am trying to tell them that the people at the church are not perfect and there are politics there.

i care about the people who are about to hurt themselves thinking they will find new life in the church people...

i am not saying that people won't find new life in your god, they probably will. but if they expecting encouragement from the church leaders, not everybody is perfect. well maybe there are good guys in the church but there are bad guys too.

yes i am offensive at least i am honest.

i used to know a lot of frens at school who are suicidal and have pre marital pregnancies go to church ot seek new life...but i am trying to forewarn them that the people in some of the churches are political.

but my message also have a good side, i am telling them to go to a better church...if they see the first signs of a church of asssholes...please leave...i am very sure there are nice churches like the one in gombak called metro tab church...i met a lot of nice people from there.

oh yeah, call me a hurt person, thats the best argument the christians can come out in their super over defensiveness...so much for christian love.

so when ISMA or perkasa say something about you christians, you go on the defensive means you are hurt ah?

haha,  when you try to defend you try to hit under the belt.

so when you say you are sinner, i suddenly accuse you of being low self esteem you like or not? which obviously not true.

you try to label me as something i am not. so much for thou shall not judge for you guys.

i suspect you have total ignorance problem judging from your comments.

you see a problem in front of you but you choose to ignore...and stay until it get solve by itself...

wah, way to go Mr Doctor Phil...now you can character assasinate me based on my one liners....you think i go help in charities means i want to have a "weight" in church? ya gotta be kidding me...you slanderous man you. Your church taught you to slander people one ah?

i was giving examples of me helping out in charities in both buddhist and christian missions, to reflect that i also believe some christians are doing good in society. I WAS NOT BOASTING...mr Professor...how dare you accuse me of that.

this is why i don't like the typical third type of christians, who think they know it all, they go to the stage and start accusing this people of this and that while they don't understand the whole situation.

you love your enemies does not mean, you stay there and take their shiit. understand...if you feel you are not growing there, what is the point of hanging around? you're wasting yours and their time.

whether you chose to forgive or not, the ego christian will remain an arseehole..that is a fact. For example, i know of a christian guy at work...who gossip something not good about me, one day we were at lunch in the canteen, i raise some work issues, he was dam offended...he attack me verbally...but next day, he came over and apologise, i apologise too...but ya know what, he never change his behavior...he still tai chi and blame my dept for his own dept faults.

some people never change in spite of forgiveness...so for me i just roll my eyes and choose not to associate so much with him. because he still talk like a snob.

don't you think sometime when a man choose his path he could be going god's way too...because that was the path god chose for him? if one believes in god of course.

i give you one example...one of my best friends, a christian...he told me a story of an immature cell group that he once joined...the cg leader was abusive..and paranoid likes to accuse...one day my friend didn't attend a meeting because he had exam..when he came back the cg leader told the members not to talk to him throughout the whole meeting. but my friend wasn't offended by that..what bothered him was that he was more focused on the word but during meeting they were doing other activities. He thought he wasn't growing and the cg just wasn't doing what he felt he was compatible with.

So when he heard from his friend about this new church...a pastor who came from johor...focusing on discipleship and having many forums of discussion about christianity...he decided to join this church. Its been like many years already, he is quite happy there..church even appointed him a deacon.

so what i am saying is this, if the church is not suit to your growth, please leave...don't stay and get your growth retarded like a hobbit..

yeah you are god right..

you say i am a monkey means i am a monkey.

i didn't prove your point...you try to force every excuse to prove your own point.

which is not true.

Am i saying that i lead by god to leave the church when i am not a christian?

you seem to have a problem understanding what i am saying...

are you like so blind sided to your own opinion that you don't read the whole facts?

am i talking about myself? about if the church not right to get out? i am not talking about myself...

i am talking about the christians or non christians who go to church thinking they would be finally release from their pain, only to get further pain...from churches that are lead wrongly...so the thing to do is to leave for another one.

i make up story your head lah..

some of those i said were reported in the papers...

like the city harvest and the convention center that was build by one church in which so many of its members left...you know which church i mean lah.

i am beginning to understand why my non christian friends are always wary of certain christians, that they tend to FAST JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS.

i am not going to answer sub impact...real idiot....

waste of my time..doesn't seem to show any wisdom

don't even bother to read the rest of the post...and ask me whether i am christian or not...now want to join in the debate...

do your homework !

the way to go about it, is not to join them.

so when they realise their recruitment falling...

only then they realise where they went wrong, only then they would insaf and change

if you join them and still suffer their egoness, they just won't change even if you voice out...

that is people nature...

if you sit there and do nothing and pray, you not exercising your faith man.

sometime to counter fire...you need to use some water to flush it out, not fight fire with fire or fight fire by sitting there and wait for god to save you from it...by just sitting down with no action.

yeah i do, they are brainwashed.

that convention center was a waste of money.

that church is based on a satellite church concept why they need to waste resources and volunteers to go to a place where few of their congregations live?

and they only use it for like once in a month?

if you give 10% won't you want the money channeled to help the poor or to build better teaching facilities at your church rather than waste it on a glamourous building.

just like the crystal cathedral church in USA...today they filing for bankruptcy.

same goes with City Harvest..still got people there stay in spite of the obvious fund abuse.

Nope its not about who argue best.

its about who is genuinely want to discuss this matter.

subimpact don't show any genuineness or frankness.

earlier tell me to leave the forum and say i flamebait...but later want to join in the discussion but never do homework..ask me whether i christian or not.

do you ever not bother to explain when your office email incoming 100 emails a day...then you send one email to this work colleague about a matter...later the colleague ask you where is this email...you don't even want to answer this colleague because this colleague is being lazy and want you to do his work.

same goes for subimpact..lah, want to say something funny...not genuinely want to discuss, want to cause trouble. i am wasting my time with that person.

again you jumping to conclusion.

i go visit church i have to get accepted one? omg...

next time anybody want to join church must apply for VISA

its not the meeting halfway...it is that those egoist don't even meet halfway...they are like KKK...if they think you niggah...they try all sorts of ways to force you out by attrition.

wow again you jump into conclusion without evidence.

you like to slander people is it?

how you feel like if i go and say that your father was a hard case and no love kind of man based on how i judge on your dogmatic stubborn comments?

actually the bigger cowards are the ones who use politics for their own means. So now Leon88 say speak up to them...but now you say if you speak up, you are part of the problem...walao meaning to say to be part of a church is to be ruled by a dictator.

i think the true cowards are those who continue to be part of that church, keep silent and cow down, even though they know the mounting problems that the egoist people create there. The true cowards are the ones who just want to suck up to the influential egotistical leaders there so they can gain favor and acceptance. Its just another way of saying "you can't solve the problem, join them".

are you a coward? seem that you are. oops i am jumping to conclusion, oh but thats how you are anyway.

talk about cowardice...i heard of a church and don't say i create story ah. Its true story. They were inviting some malay NGOs for AIDS event because no one else would help the malays. This is good heart for them to do so. But when JAIIIIS come to raid the church...walao, suddenly the leadership say they wanna help the community and what not. They deny vehemently against what their true detractors accuse them of trying to spread religion to the malays.

admit it lah...after all the true intention of all this charity and help is to spread the religion and tell the goodness of the religion to non christians. But they deny ! Isn't that true cowardice?

Thought those days when christians were persecuted during roman times..they would stand up and speak the truth even if it meant being stone to death, one guy kena stone...stephen was it? thats true matryism.

how can i be force out from a church when i am not even a christian? get your facts right before you start accusing me.

thats how you christians are like ah? when you can't convince people, you start to character assasinate with slander and false accusations?

its better to leave, if you stay you BECOME the problem. if you don't grow, you BECOME teh problem. Just like my fren who left his church...to another one..today he's doing much well...being promoted to a deakin.

its not cowardice...its more practical...we only live 80 years mebbe less...we should spend our time more wisely.