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 LYN Christian Fellowship V7 (Group), Bible Hope never disappoints!

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sonido
post Aug 22 2014, 02:23 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 22 2014, 12:12 PM)
Right.

So how can only a few finds it be right?

Unless it's not referring to the same thing.

What do you think?
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Suddenly we have that urge to do what is right all the time... suddenly we truly fear God... suddenly we hv the desires to pray constantly...

There are two ways which i am pretty sure are the only ways to salvation. Read the story of the prodigal son luke 13 something.. one through painful way and another through obedience.
sonido
post Aug 22 2014, 03:54 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 22 2014, 02:34 PM)
The prodigal son did nothing to earn God's love, God has always love Him even when he went away.
He did not obey any of God's law to earn the right to step into the Father's house.
All He did was coming back to the embrace of the Father's Love.
Not too sure which other prodigal story about painful way and through obedience, do you mean the Parable of the Rich Young Ruler?
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The story stressed the emotions of the prodigal son when he returned to his father. He came a defeated man. A total loser. A deadwood. A piece of fkn shit..Someone who is about to die if not for God. I understand this very clear... I hope you do understand to...Do not leave this things out. God's love require certain conditions from us for it to work.

What i mean is 'self-denial'. As in Matthew 16: 24, Jesus said to his disciples,“Whoever wants to be my disciple must DENY THEMSELVES and take up their cross and follow me."

The prodigal son did not come to his father wanting to be saved. He denied himself the right of a son and he just wanted to be given a place amongst the worker and treated as a worker. This is very important ingredient of salvation which many sadly overlook for an easier way instead....

This post has been edited by sonido: Aug 22 2014, 04:23 PM
sonido
post Aug 22 2014, 08:27 PM

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QUOTE(iwubpreve @ Aug 22 2014, 05:20 PM)
sorry for all the hardship u went through. glad u already moving on.

anyway the way u talk is like the Pharisee pinpoint the tax collector's wrongdoing. it's graceless. want to get salvation? do this and that, get a "bachelor of degree in Christ" then we talk. when what God want is just u to say sorry to him and his door will always open for u. what so hard? what u do is just scare off pipu to know the gospel which is all about love. God is love.
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I guess we both wrong. Its just i dislike the word easy when the path i took b4 i knew God is anything but easy. It is painful. Hope you don't feel hurt by my comments, sometimes i get angry very easily...
sonido
post Aug 23 2014, 12:14 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 22 2014, 09:19 PM)
Bro Sonido,

I was thinking of what you just said here and I fully understand why this matter to you...... because it relate to you.
You said you were on the verge of suicide and realize you need to fulfil God's condition to love you and to be saved, right?

But I hope you can hear me out. Though I may disagree with you in the context of explaining of the prodigal son, that does not mean I discredit what you went through as real experience.

God actually love you whether you fulfil that condition or not. It is not your act that cause God to love you more or less.
He loves you unconditionally because you are his son not because you fulfil God's condition.
Because if that is true then God's Love is conditional which goes against what the Bible has been teaching all along.

I pray the Holy Spirit open your eyes to understand God's Love.

Actually the main character in the prodigal Son is not really the prodigal son but the Father. biggrin.gif 

If you study the passage carefully, you realize the Prodigal son didn't actually repent in honesty. If you think that his emotion caused the Father to love Him, bear in mind this story is talking about God the Father who is omniscience and knows and searches deep in the hearts of Man. He knows whether his repentance is real or not. I can tell you it's not.

The only reason He came back to the Father is because of his stomach, nothing else. (Luke 15:17) His repentance speech is nothing but superficial.
It's just a Mask.

The real Hero of the Story is the Father because it shows the Grace and Love of a Father many find hard to believe. They will say it's too good to be true, no such thing. So many will think there must be something the Father wants, he can't be that good. So they try to fulfil the Father to make him happy. To me that is the work of the devil blasphemy and twisting what is the truth.

That is exactly what happened to the elder brother who said.

Luke 15:29-30
29 But he answered his father Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

He thinks that the Father's love require such conditions as above.

It saddens and pain the Father that his son thinks like this because the Father never love with such conditions. His Love is Agape.

Listen to what the Father says.

31“ ‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours.

That debunks the notion that we need to fulfil God's condition for his love, The Kingdom of God (Access to Heaven's Resources) has been given gladly to you willingly. (Luke 12:32 ).

Think about this again.

Who is the one is waiting for the Son return? The Father
Who is the one who couldn't wait for the son to reach the door and Ran to Him? The Father
Who is the one who hug and Kiss in adoration? The Father
Who is the one who restored all status and authority? The Father
Who is the one who celebrated? the Father.

You think the story is really about the prodigal son and what He did so great to earn the Father's love?
He couldn't even rehearse his "repentance" speech correctly. U notice he never even complete what He wanted to say in total.

Tell you the truth, it's as if the Father is not so concern about that but more on his coming back Home.
Because real repentance comes from the power of God.

No, this story is to tell you how Graceful our God is.
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The love of God is unconditional I agree completely.

However, I disagree when you say the prodigal son is faking it because if he is faking it he would have returned imediately to his father the moment a problem in his life sets in. He would not endured the suffering and the humiliation of working amongst pigs, to a point that he began to think of eating pigs food due to his hunger. He knew of his mistakes to his father, and he justified his return to his father must only be as a person seeking a job there, not as a son returning. This is what God wish to see in a person true heart; Justice, Honesty, Humility. Not faking it.

Second, following your belief that the prodigal son is faking it, a person may starts to think that faking his repentance, or that repentance can be repeated again and again and again, because God is always there with His everlasting unconditional love is dangerous.

Instead, we must revered Salvation. Salvation is not a cheap, easy-to-get, can get whenever and wherever we choose to mechanism for a christian to get away with most things, even sinning blatantly towards God. Because their idea is God is always forgiving right? No... Remember the sacrifice Jesus made is extremely invaluable, so we cannot just call his sacrifice easy and cheap.

Salvation is a one of situation, once in a lifetime chance. There is no second chance. To reject salvation after receiving it is to insult God, thus His Spirit thus whoever does this is sure to receive Hell.

This post has been edited by sonido: Aug 23 2014, 12:16 AM
sonido
post Aug 23 2014, 12:56 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 23 2014, 09:26 AM)
Well if you completely agree that God's love is unconditional then why do you insist on putting conditions as above?
Don't you agree when you agree one thing but do the opposite you contradict your own believe?
Do you know what lead him to repentance?

Luke 15:17
17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death!

His stomach is the driving objective to come back. It's there. Read it again.
I've studied this theological aspect for the longest time.

And Do you know when you said the prodigal son returned justified because he wanted to be a hired servant not as a son, do you know that displeases the father very much?
I've proved it to you, have you read the part where I explained about the older brother?

What do you mean by rejecting Salvation? Do you understand meaning of the scripture that's tied to that context?

Yes I know Salvation is not cheap, I've share that myself in my previous post but that doesn't mean you can put up rules and regulations when God never imposed such.
That is rather dangerous my friend.

BTW when you talked about repentance being repeated because one is insincere, do you agree that a believer is unable to repent on his own strength?

Come, Share with unker UW.
Don't get angry bro, I'm here to share and learn from you as well.
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No I will train my heart not to get angry easily. Let's dicuss this with an open heart.

The unconditional love of God applies only to the right person who God selected for salvation. Not everyone.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

The person must have a certain mindset that separates him from the rest. This is what I mean by conditions, all the pre-existing good things in the person's heart; Justice, Honesty, Kindness, Humility, etc. Although no one is perfect as Jesus was, but those with potentials and can get close to the image of Jesus will receive salvation whether he asked it or not. Because any other way will lead the person to death. So God will put the person on a journey that will enable him/her to see the truth in the end, by painful way or by easy way, and thus finally repent.

Lets look at David. Why amongst all the Israelites he was chosen? What did God say when He made the decision to choose David? Was it He chose David because David was the biggest, toughest, meanest, strongest man around? This alone debunks anything you say about God's love not having any condition in His selection.

By putting a condition (or restriction) in our mindset we can restrict ourselves from doing things excessively. There is a reason why God creates us with this ability. Do not overlook this.

It is not we who decide who can get saved, because we lack the ability to see through a person's heart. It is not our right to tell anyone that everybody can get the gift of salvation because we are not the one who dispenses the gift. It is God's right alone. Knowing that, what is our right to tell people that the gift is so free for all and easy to get?

Now, going back to the Prodigal Son..

The Bible is a guide for us, it is not for God, it should be aptly called The Way of Life for Human, author God. The whole point of this book is to guide a person to the correct way of life. Thus the main character in the Bible is us.

So, the focal story of the Prodigal Son is not about the Father, although it does show how limitless the fathers love is. Even the title of the story is aptly called The Prodigal Son, because he is the main character in the story. Not the father.

Finally lets compare between our beliefs which is more dangerous. This is based on the Prodigal Son who you admit is faking his repentance yet still forgiven by his father. I will admit first I am not 100% correct. I just don't want God to put the blame on me if I mistakenly deceived anyone.

Lets look at the worst case scenario...

If my belief is wrong, the worst is a person will turn his back on God out of ignorance. Afraid that the teaching is too harsh to handle. But ignorance can still be saved.

If your belief is wrong, the worst is a person who after receiving salvation, will think it is a-okay to keep sinning even though the truth about that sin has been revealed to him, this kind of sin is unpardonable to God. As Saul had commited, who received the salvation (selection), who knew the truth, yet continue to go against God's will.

“I promise you that any of the sinful things you say or do can be forgiven, no matter how terrible those things are. But if you speak against the Holy Spirit, you can never be forgiven. That sin will be held against you forever.” — Mark 3:28-29

Knowing the truth from the Spirit of God yet continue to mock Him by doing exactly what is forbidden, this is extremely dangerous.

Which makes me wonder Ignorance is Bliss. What we don't know God cannot held against us. It scares me knowing the truth...

This post has been edited by sonido: Aug 23 2014, 01:05 PM
sonido
post Aug 23 2014, 01:26 PM

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QUOTE(ngaisteve1 @ Aug 23 2014, 01:21 PM)
What about these verses?

1 Timothy 2: 4 - who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

John 3:17 - For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
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All people with the right conditions in their heart I would say. So no one from all four corners of earth who has the potential to work for God is left out... This is justice.

Or do you think a trully evil people, like those from ISIS is also loved by God?

This post has been edited by sonido: Aug 23 2014, 01:27 PM
sonido
post Aug 24 2014, 06:17 AM

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QUOTE(De_Luffy @ Aug 23 2014, 09:35 PM)
God loved all humans on Earth if i am not wrong that is what he is trying to convey, as John 3:16 said For God so loved the world that He sent His one and only Son, that whoever believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life.......
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No brother. God does not love everybody. God hates evil doer.

For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. 5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. 6 You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man. (Psalm 5:4-6, ESV)

but its ok if we wrongly interpret the bible. Innocence/ignorance is not a sin. Is better if we keep what we know and dont want anymore truth. Knowing the truth can kill us if we cannot keep up with it. Remember Eve she wanted to know the truth and see what got her.
sonido
post Aug 24 2014, 06:21 AM

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QUOTE(de1929 @ Aug 23 2014, 08:46 PM)
are you trying to help ISIS or get enlightment for yourself ?
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Dont get mad. I dont recognize who is assisting u in your faith, but first you should concentrate on God alone. And yourself.
sonido
post Aug 24 2014, 02:45 PM

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QUOTE(De_Luffy @ Aug 24 2014, 07:28 AM)
do you remember is the last words of Jesus before he was taken up to heaven?

Matthew 28:16-20New International Version (NIV)

The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
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Yes if possible. Even family members we should remind them once awhile to return to God, because most often than not we ourselves tend to forget God.

And for our part, we are encouraged to not hate anyone. Hate belongs to God, so to vengeance belongs to God.
sonido
post Aug 24 2014, 06:51 PM

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QUOTE(De_Luffy @ Aug 24 2014, 03:08 PM)
yes  and that would take time and effort, you cannot do that in just overnight right?

if not why is there is so many missionaries in all over the world? Jesus often used parables in His preaching and Jesus started His ministry at around age 27 or later..........in His parables it was often associates with Jewish cultures.

Prodigal Son, The seeds and the weeds, and few more others.......

To bring someone to church it's need a continuous efforts and prayers................to bring another to Know Christ that is another task
Friends ---> close Friends ---> Invite to Church/Cell meeting ---> accepted Christ (Goal Accomplished)
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you are a good, humble and honest person. i hope God will bless your life.
sonido
post Aug 24 2014, 06:52 PM

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QUOTE(de1929 @ Aug 24 2014, 03:35 PM)
I have a church that can speak to my life and a care group that proven care. What do u have ?
You think salvation is not easy,
You don't recognize Holy Spirit exist,
...and yet you try to teach us about Christianity ?
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you on the other hand is smack full of edit (haughtyness). ok you win. i lose. i rest my case here.

icon_rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by sonido: Aug 24 2014, 08:24 PM
sonido
post Aug 24 2014, 06:59 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 24 2014, 04:14 PM)
rclxub.gif

I read through, and I'm taking into consideration the many things you posted before this.
I was wondering why you don't feel secure in Salvation. You said it scares you knowing the truth in your last statement.
I remembered you saying Salvation is only 1 time and I remember you were on the verge of suicide.

I think, now I understand why.

It's because you look at yourself. You think Salvation depends on what you do.

Can I put your heart to rest?

I don't know if you are willing to listen to an older brother in Christ who have read the entire Bible through and through but I pray the Holy Spirit will illuminate your mind.

Ephesians 2:9 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Do you see the word there not from yourselves? That would include your emotions, your obedience, anything that is from yourself.

And you mentioned this:

The unconditional love of God applies only to the right person who God selected for salvation. Not everyone.
Here is the scripture that I hope will change your mind.

Romans 4:5 - However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

There goes the idea that only Selected "Right" people are given Salvation. Do you see the word there Ungodly? If ungodly is the criteria then the first conditions that one must be right before being accepted by God goes out of the window.

And before you say "work" apply to doing good deeds or doing Church work, No. It Refers to this.
John 6:29 - Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

One more Scripture verse from the Bible.

2 Corinthians 5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Do you see the word there "not counting the people's sin against them and do you see it's talking about in the context of the world?
Do you know why this is possible under the New Covenant?

David? biggrin.gif Do you know He Sinned with Barsheba with lust and murdered the husband?
I would hardly call that an example according to what you say God only choose people with the right conditions.
Yet God called David, a Man after God's own Heart. I can share with you why despite this but it's not what you think it is.
Bro Sonido, The Bible is not about us. It's about God, his works, his Son and the Holy Spirit.
Truth is the Bible is really about God's son (John 5:39 ). Being a manual guide is one thing but we are called to live in the spirit.
Not so much about what can do or not to do. (Colossians 2:20-21)

Which do you think Glorify God? In all the passages about the prodigal Son, the scriptures, magnifying God's work or Man's work? Meaning to say I got my Salvation because of my own effort, emotions is right, I did the right thing. Your effort is your glory not God, that is not according to what the scripture in the light of the New Testament. You are still banking on Old Testament mentality.

It's not about faking repentance. Many Christians do not understand repentance.  
It's not about license to sin under the Grace of God. If you can say such things it means you don't understand
living in the spirit. You don't understand Grace. It's a very big topic and I can't explain all in here in just few paragraphs that is why
I teach in bite size devotions and you really need to see from my overall topic to understand this.

When you quote speaking against the Holy Spirit, do you understand it's context, it's not just blindly quoting this and over emphasizing everything.

You said Salvation is only once and if you reject it, there's no more Salvation.

Then let me ask you.

After you accept Christ, have you ever sin willingly? Be Honest now. The Holy Spirit is watching this.
I know I have. Have you?
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if you cannot understand then maybe you are not ready yet for the truth. so i wont argue anymore. but just remember what you teach people God will deal with that later.

the last question you said, i answer, yes i sin. i sin through my ignorance.

oh i should add.. with all your high and mighty teaching, with full of abstractions and deep meanings, which you can only write with flowery words, how can a dumb, stupid, humble, poor, idiot spirit like me and the rest who honestly just want to obey God understand you?

and hopefully you re-read again this one,

1 Samuel 16:7
7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”

This post has been edited by sonido: Aug 24 2014, 07:33 PM
sonido
post Aug 24 2014, 08:23 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 24 2014, 07:50 PM)
Bro,  biggrin.gif

I am for having Right character but it must work according through Scripture, not what we think is right or wrong.
Not in understanding bits of scripture verse here and there but in totality from Genesis till Revelation.

Man's way is this. I must have the right emotions and character before God will accept me.
and People have been trying this way for centuries. Why do you think God gave the 10 commandments?
Do you think it's really for us to follow to be justified before God?

For 2000 years Man have been trying that and God still says in the Bible.

Romans 3:10 - There is none righteous, NOT EVEN ONE.
What does that mean? It means nobody could. Do you see this now?
Why do you think Jesus came as our Messiah or Saviour?
What is the meaning of Saviour? Ask your self.

To Save us, bro sonido because we can't save ourselves.
If we can have the right conditions before God is able to give us his love and Salvation,
We don't need Jesus! Jesus don't need to come.

It's redundant to think we can through our actions, gain Salvation and still accept the idea that Jesus save us.
People are confuse nowadays as to what the Gospel is really all about.
Hear me Bro. This is the truth.
Man's strength or even emotions goes up and down in a day. This is reality and this is the truth.
If Salvation depends on what we do, then truly before the day is over,
OUR SALVATION IS ALSO OVER!

Do you now see why Jesus came?

Ephesians 2:9 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Do you see the word there, Gift of God?

What is the meaning of gift? Can you work to get a gift? No!
It's given to you as a gift! Something you didn't earn.
Like Birthday Gift.

Your Heavenly Father loves you. Just like the prodigal son who did not have the chance to prove his repentance through actions throughout the years,
the Father lavish his grace upon him the moment he arrived. Bro anyone can say I repent but I tell you the truth it is YET TO BE PROVEN.
Words are easy to say but actions may not follow and YET the Father restored Him by putting Authority Ring on his finger, the Best Robe on his body and Shoes in his FEET! That is the great Love of the Father!

Now I conclude my explanation in this part 1. Do you see it?

If you are willing to hear me out, I will explain how change in Character, Holiness and Righteousness comes according to scripture.

That will be part 2.
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why is it always about work ?

who says me or anyone is working hard to gain salvation?

why is it so hard for you to understand? the in-born ability?

do you understand now?

it is in-born in our heart which we cannot change. for example i dislike stealing for no reason other than my heart say it. i do not use it to bargain for salvation. haiyaaa.... pls la pls understand..

now pls read the text below

1 Samuel 16:7
7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”

what did God say about a person heart? you tell me? is David working hard to show God he has an amazing heart so he can be chosen?

now you trully understand what i mean?

pls stop talking about work. is all work work work to you.

(do you know why i keep fighting you? because i wish to learn. somehow i find all these funny you know... we got disagreement on our understanding... small isssue really.. hope you don't mind. this is nothing for me. but first i want to thank you because in certain way you manage to show me the truth.)

This post has been edited by sonido: Aug 24 2014, 09:16 PM
sonido
post Aug 24 2014, 09:50 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Aug 24 2014, 09:39 PM)
Alamak why so defensive? Like, everything we tell you is salah.
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you mean me? i just want the whole truth. even God i question whether His methods are true or not. the reason? because i want a very strong foundation of faith in my heart. i am not going for lukewarm christian who knows only small stuffs this and that...

so far UW fail to convince me. his belief in the Prodigal Son story is still very wrong to me. if you wish to know more you need to question everything. so far God never fails to tell me the truth. except for certain things which i think is because i am not ready yet for the answer.

also, in a way this is a test to see the patience of a person heart.

This post has been edited by sonido: Aug 24 2014, 09:53 PM
sonido
post Aug 24 2014, 11:19 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 24 2014, 09:59 PM)
Brother,

God chose David and Saul and looks at their Heart for Kingship / Ruler-ship over the People of Israel.
Not to justify for God's Love or Salvation. That is the difference.

God has always love them because if you say they were chosen because their Heart is right, Bro, Saul did many wrong and disobeyed God by refusing to completely destroy the enemies of Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:22) And He disobeyed by refusing to submit to the Prophet Samuel (1 Samuel 15:24-26)
and David disobeyed God by Sinning with Lust and murder. Don't you think God can see into the future before choosing any of them?
When I mention work, it's not pertaining to tasks or jobs in Church or in Corporate world.
It's referring to anything that Man tried to justify himself before God, anything in tangible and non tangible sense.
Can be emotions, the Heart, whatever.

Everybody's heart is evil. NO EXCEPTION. The inborn nature of everyone is sinful. Why?
Because we all inherited Adam's Sin, His guilt and disobedience was pass on to everyone.

You may do right in one area but you will have flaws in other area. Inherited from Adam we just cannot do right in the long run.
You may say that you don't like stealing and you don't use that as bargaining leverage for Salvation. Granted.
but the nature of Sin is still in you whether you like it or not.

And God doesn't view Sin like How Man view Sin.

Sin is still Sin, no matter what how right we condition our Heart or try to do the Right thing, God will not accept us on the basis of what we do or think.
Why? Because there is none who is able to be Righteous NOT ONE, bro. All of us have many Flaws.
God knows this so He sent Jesus Christ.  biggrin.gif And that my friend, is the greatest things ever happened to Mankind, We now have Hope!
It's okay bro, as long as you are open to discussion we can sort of "fight" in this debate  but don't take it to heart, it doesn't mean I look down on you or ignore what you went through, as you said yourself you are "foolish" ( how can a dumb, stupid, humble, poor, idiot spirit like me and the rest who honestly just want to obey God understand you?) and you are honestly want to obey God.

I can explain why. I believe you have been touch by God's spirit. What is my basis for saying this? NOBODY can submit to God unless you have the Spirit of God in you.

1 Corinthians 12:3  - Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

You have the Holy Spirit in you.  biggrin.gif Rejoice!
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Of course David or me and you are not pure. But amongst all that impurity in our heart there is a gem. which God wants to polish and make it shine.

And you are still wrong concerning David selection. When God selected David He provided Him with His Spirit which means David received Salvation at that moment.

Samuel 1:7
7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”

Samuel 1:13
"So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon David. Samuel then went to Ramah."

This is concrete proof that God made a selection for salvation to a person based on the person's HEART. I cannot prove myself so I use the Bible as the sole source of my conviction. Your answer and your belief is what I have gone through before, I believed it before, it came from church teaching, but I am able to see (or God is the one who showed me) the whole picture rather than just a specific situation to realize the fatal flaws in that belief of yours that says all men including the evil ones are capable of receving salvation which you are still holding and teaching people.

You should know there are people God hates. If you need me to quotes them I will. Is this what you want to deny and says God loves everyone and God can provide salvation to everyone? for free and easy even? c'mon la...

On second thought, its not salvation cannot be provided to everyone, because Jesus sacrifice is meant for everyone, its just God refuse to give salvation to some people. why He refuse them, must be because of their corrupt heart.

This post has been edited by sonido: Aug 24 2014, 11:48 PM
sonido
post Aug 25 2014, 12:00 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 24 2014, 11:47 PM)
Bro Sonido,

Read the entire Chapter of I Samuel 16.
The reason why God Anoint David with oil and his Spirit came upon him because He was selected to be King. It's not in the context of Salvation. rclxub.gif
Brother where in the Bible does it says the spirit of God came David for Salvation?

1 Samuel 16:1

1 The Lord said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.

What if I can prove to you that Evil Man can receive Salvation? Will that put your heart to rest that God wants all Man to be saved?

Read Acts 9

1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

5“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6“Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
And Saul or Paul before this had nothing in his heart but to murder Christians became of the of the greatest Apostles of God.

What do you say Bro?
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Duh... how could you make such distinction between God selection? Where in the Bible say such distinction occur and not related to salvation? Do you know what salvation is? in simplest very simple term to you. Salvation = Selection. A person selected by God to do His bidding, as a prophet, a king, a messenger, etc and the main pre-requisitie is they must received His Spirit first.

And you think Saul (Paul) is evil? He is a very honest, yes man type of man who through his IGNORANCE prosecuted God's people by the order of his church. And he did not received God Spirit until he went blind first. Sin via ignorance can be forgiven as written in,

Numbers 15:27-31
“If one person sins unintentionally, he shall offer a female goat a year old for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the person who makes a mistake, when he sins unintentionally, to make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven. 29 You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the people of Israel and for the stranger who sojourns among them. 30 But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the Lord, and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord and has broken his commandment, that person shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be on him.”



sonido
post Aug 25 2014, 08:07 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 25 2014, 12:21 AM)
Because nobody could be saved under the Old Testament?
Jesus had not come?

Salvation means Deliverance? Not Selection?

Do you know there is a different between when God's Spirit coming upon David and being Filled with the Spirit as in the book of Acts Chapter 2 with the Apostles?

Yes Paul was persecuting the Christian under Ignorance, but that does not remove the fact that the intend to Murder was intentional, He was the one who went to the Hight Priest and request personally for the persecution letter? This part of taking one's life with murder was intentional Bro.

It's like this. A husband mistakenly accused the wife of adultery and murdered her, later it was found to be a misunderstanding. The Husband may have been in ignorance of the fact there wasn't any adultery but that doesn't excuse the fact that His act of murder is still unjustifiable. It's still wrong.

Honest or not that doesn't remove the fact that Saul Heart wasn't RIGHT in the first place and yet God chose Him. As you said the person must be humble, kind, obedience, etc. How can a kind, humble person with the right heart murder? I don't think if anyone can actually murder someone has the right heart.
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You are such an ignorant person. You claim you speak on behalf of God and when i asked for a specific verse which said there is a diference between a person selected by God and salvation. No person can work for God if not Gods love resides in tht person. Period. Dont twist words with me ok.

but wait i got so many works to do today. When i hv time i will continue with our little debate. Yu just wait and be careful what u teach people.
sonido
post Aug 25 2014, 08:09 AM

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QUOTE(De_Luffy @ Aug 25 2014, 12:32 AM)
Since when Salvation become Selection? Salvation is more like grace of God  given to us the moment you accepted Christ as your Savior and King

sal·va·tion
salˈvāSHən/Submit
nounTHEOLOGY
noun: salvation
deliverance from sin and its consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ.
synonyms: redemption, deliverance, reclamation
"salvation by way of repentance"
antonyms: damnation
preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.
"they try to sell it to us as economic salvation"
synonyms: lifeline, preservation; More
a source or means of being saved from harm, ruin, or loss.
noun: one's salvation; plural noun: one's salvations
"his only salvation was to outfly the enemy"
Origin

Middle English: from Old French salvacion, from ecclesiastical Latin salvation- (from salvare ‘to save’), translating Greek sōtēria .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation
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Its ok for you to believe that. I see no harm in that. Our differences is not going to shake the foundation that Christ has laid. Dont worry.
sonido
post Aug 26 2014, 11:38 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 25 2014, 10:27 AM)
I think you need to be clear (first) of your understanding of definitions of words. Look, I'm not twisting you.
The closer definition of Salvation is Deliverance. The wider Definition are; welfare, prosperity, deliverance, preservation, salvation, safety. Not Selection.
Check the Secular dictionary and Check theological Dictionary. They'll tell you the same thing. I know you're trying to say they can't be selected by God and yet is not saved.

In the Old Testament, It's possible to be Selected by God to do his work and yet not have his Spirit upon the person. King Cyrus of Persia is one such person.
Go and check Him out in the Bible if you don't believe me.

Thirdly you need to clearly understand under the Old Testament, nobody could be saved through the Law.
Those who trusted in their own works, emotions are still under the power of the bondage of Sin. (Galatians 3:22).
You cannot lump being selected by God for leadership as the same meaning as being Saved under the context of the Old Testament.
Many of the saint were saved by looking forward towards an unknown messiah but that's another matter altogether.

Ask your Pastor if you don't believe me.

Fourth I can prove to you with scripture that God can even love those who are corrupted in heart (sinners) but the problem is you ignore it. How la?

Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
2 Corinthians 5:19 - that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Romans 4:5 - However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

But does that mean that God encourages sinners to continue to sin? No. It takes the power of God to change a person. You need to draw the person to God first before change can happen no matter how corrupt the person is, God's power is greater and is able to change.
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Lol at your grandious words.. as if that could bring you closer to God. I use the simplest term so that even a child who inherit the kingdom of God can understand, not some fancy ridiculous high level teaching such as yours.

and you fail to grasp the concept of sin... Tsk tsk what a priest you are. Even Paul you consider evil prior to his salvation. Oh ya did Paul seek his salvation or did God select him? Go read back
your bible man before i put all the evidences back to your face.
sonido
post Sep 5 2014, 08:56 PM

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Greetings! biggrin.gif

I kinda stumbled upon an article which I feel compelled to put it here, otherwise I wouldn't be here. It is 100% the same as what I believe, in case someone wonders what kind of teaching I am following.. hehe.

Once upon a time I had an argument with a false teacher, who thought that Salvation is free and easy.... doh.gif and his followers are blindly following him, cuz he is their Jesus. LOL.

So here it goes...

Wait b4 that, if anyone wants to shoot me later, I say don't bother. I am uninterested to argue no more. I'll say adios to you all, I am following the narrow and difficult path, you all adament to follow the broad and popular path, so there is no reason to argue anymore.

~~~~~~~

ELECTION UNTO SALVATION:

A HATED DOCTRINE IN CHURCHIANITY
by Daniel E. Parks

Modern Churchianity is a perversion of Biblical Christianity. Whereas Christianity is founded upon Christ, Churchianity is founded upon churches and denominations. And whereas Christianity resorts to Holy Scriptures for its beliefs, Churchianity resorts to its creeds and confessions. Churchianity therefore denies many of the doctrines of Christ and the Scriptures.

One of the foremost examples of such a Biblical doctrine denied, and even despised by Churchianity is that of election unto salvation. This doctrine teaches that God, before the foundation of the world, for His own glory and through His free and sovereign grace, predestined a host of unworthy sinners to salvation who otherwise would not have been saved.

Many of Churchianity's ministers deny that the doctrine of election unto salvation is found in Holy Scriptures. One must therefore conclude that they have never read the Bible!

We read in Ephesians 1:1-6 concerning the "saints ... and faithful in Christ Jesus": "... the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ... chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace ...." And we read in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 concerning these same believers in Jesus Christ: "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation ...."

We read of "the purpose of God according to election" in Romans 9:11; of "the election of grace" in Romans 11:5; that "the elect have obtained [grace]" in Romans 11:7; of "election by God" in 1 Thessalonians 1:4; that "the elect ... may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus" in 2 Timothy 2:10; that believers are called "the elect of God" in Colossians 3:12; of "the faith of God's elect" in Titus 1:1; that Christians are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" in 1 Peter 1:2; of the people of God being a "chosen generation" in 1 Peter 2:9; of "calling and election" in 2 Peter 1:10; that the children of God are "called, chosen, and faithful" in Revelation 17:14; and of the futility of raising "a charge against God's elect" in Romans 8:33.

God declares in Isaiah 65:9 that "My elect shall inherit [My mountains]." And God declares in Isaiah 65:22 that "My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands."

Jesus Christ declares in Matthew 20:16 and 22:14 that "many are called, but few are chosen"; and in Mark 13:20 that "the elect" are those "whom [the Lord] chose"; and in John 13:18 that "I know whom I have chosen." Jesus Christ says of His disciples in John 15:19 that "I have chosen you out of the world"; and in John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you." Jesus Christ declares in Matthew 24:31 that He will at the last day "gather together His elect"; and in Luke 18:7 that "God [will] avenge His own elect." Perhaps Jesus Christ warns us of Churchianity's ministers when He declares in Matthew 24:24 that "false christs and false prophets" will try "to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

Election unto salvation is certainly a Biblical doctrine!

Many of Churchianity's ministers aver that the doctrine of election unto salvation is a "damnable heresy." Their assertion would make God and His ministers "damnable heretics," since God has revealed this doctrine and His ministers teach it.

And far from being a "damnable heresy," the doctrine of election unto salvation is a blessed truth. Remember that Paul the apostle in Ephesians 1:3f included election unto salvation among the "spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ"; and that he was in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "bound to give thanks to God always" for election unto salvation. The psalmist David therefore wrote in Psalm 65:4, "Blessed is the man whom You choose, and cause to approach You, that he may dwell in your courts."

Many of Churchianity's ministers who admit that election unto salvation is a Biblical doctrine refuse to teach it because, they say, "It is too deep and dark a subject." In saying it is too dark a subject, they admit that they themselves are devoid of spiritual light to teach it. In saying it is too deep a subject, they declare that their own congregants are too shallow-minded to understand it. Such ministers and congregants will therefore be unable to obey the exhortation in 2 Peter 1:10 to "be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure."

Many of Churchianity's ministers who admit that election unto salvation is a Biblical doctrine aver that it has no place in preaching and evangelism. To the contrary, Paul the apostle began his evangelistic message recorded in Acts 13:16ff by saying ".....The God of this people Israel chose our fathers ...." And surely Paul included the doctrine of election unto salvation when he declared in Acts 20:27, "I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God."

Many of Churchianity's ministers who admit that election unto salvation is a Biblical doctrine aver that the teaching of it hinders church growth. This is true only in the building of their sort of churches, those in which one of the most integral doctrines of God's Word is denied and despised. This doctrine did not hinder the growth of apostolic churches.

Many of Churchianity's ministers who admit that election unto salvation is a Biblical doctrine deny that we may know who the elect are. They are certainly wrong.

Peter the apostle addressed his first epistle to persons he knew to be "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Peter 1:2); and assured them that they were "a chosen generation" (2:9); and wrote also of "She who is in Babylon, elect together with you" (5:13). And Peter admonished his readers to "make your calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10). John the apostle addressed his second epistle to one whom he knew to be an "elect lady" (2 John v.1), and assured her that "The children of your elect sister greet you" (v.13). Paul the apostle was personally assured that "The God of our fathers has chosen you" (Acts 22:14). And Paul wrote an epistle to persons of whom he said, "knowing, beloved, your election by God" (1 Thessalonians 1:4). In another epistle Paul requested his readers to "Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord" (Romans 16:14). Luke wrote of "the apostles whom [Jesus] had chosen" (Acts 1:2). We may indeed know who are God's chosen people!

Why do Churchianity's ministers deny and even despise the doctrine of election unto salvation? Because this doctrine abases the pride of man and exalts the grace of God. This truth was expressed in a hymn by Joseph Hart (18th century):


Why so offensive in their eyes
Does God's election seem?
Because they think themselves so wise
That they have chosen Him.....
"Election!" 'tis a word divine;
For, Lord, I plainly see,
Had not Thy choice preceded mine,
I ne'er had chosen Thee.


In order to believe and love this doctrine, one must acknowledge that Jesus Christ spoke the truth when He declared in John 15:16, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you." Such a believer and lover of the truth will not hesitate to sing the hymn of Josiah Condor (1856):


'Tis not that I did choose Thee,
For, Lord, that could not be,
This heart would still refuse Thee,
But Thou hast chosen me:
Thou from the sin that stained me
Washed me and set me free,
And to this end ordained me,
That I should live to Thee.

'Twas sovereign mercy called me,
And taught my op'ning mind;
The world had else enthralled me,
To heav'nly beauties blind.
My heart owns none above Thee;
For Thy rich grace I thirst;
This knowing, if I love Thee,
Thou must have loved me first.

Do you rejoice in the Biblical doctrine of election unto salvation?

~~~~~~~~

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