UW

Thanks. You simply strengthen me personally.

OOT: I am curious what's GOD's plan for this forum. There are a lot of silent reader and i am sure GOD leads them here for a reason.

Hey 14-9-2015, actually the post was directed to Pharmacist on the New Jerusalem, so I won't waste your time on New Jerusalem.

I am familiar with what "mainstream" teaches and that is the problem ... I can't reconciled it with the verses in Matthew 25. Definitely, they have to take the premise that those cast into outer darkness are non-believers .... otherwise the other alternative was they will lose their salvation. In which, we cannot accept that based on the Lord's word.

The problem with the interpretation that I find is ...

1) why would unbelievers wait for the Bridegroom?

2) Both the wise and the foolish have lamps ... what is the significance of it? The only one I can associated with was Proverbs [referring to our spirit]. Also Luke 12:35; Matt. 5:15-16; which definitely refers to believers

3) How about buying? Paying a price? How will you interpreted this? The church in Laodicea in Revelation speaks of paying the price ... definitely believers.

4) Also, the Lord charge to watch ... why will unbelievers need to watch??

There are many more ... if we take this interpretation. That is only the parable of the virgin. The next parable is on faithfulness in service. We now require the believers to be faithful in serving the Lord???

You have to really help with me with this if I can accept that? There is something inadequate with the "mainstream" teaching. It produces a false sense of security.

I know that the Scofield Study Bible do agrees with this. Maybe you can answer my questions before I can answer yours ... because of the premise.

Hehe ..... now you see how hard a stance on God's salvation (Always saved, saved eternally) ... we will like to open a "small door" a little bit to Arminianism. Then, we will put God's will, God's covenant, God's predestination etc into question... that it is not effective after all. If that is the case, Paul will not call the Corinthians, saints! [The OSAS mobs will go against you XD]

“Predestinating us unto sonship...according to... His will” (Eph. 1:5).

“Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose” (2 Tim. 1:9).

"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing” (John 6:39).

“The unchangeableness of His counsel” (Heb. 6:17).

Hebrews 10 also, which you quoted:

15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us, for after having said,

16 "This is the covenant which I will covenant with them after those days, says the Lord: I will impart My laws upon their hearts, and upon their mind I will inscribe them,''

17 He then says, "And their sins and their lawlessnesses I shall by no means remember anymore.''
I think the key word in Hebrew is maturity
Hebrews 6:1

1 Therefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us be brought on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith in God,

Paul is always charging the Hebrew believers to enter to Holy of Holies (where God is) to experience Him that they mature.

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So, your "thrown out" = lose salvation?

Everyone in this world walk according to the law. In experience, many times believers rather walk according to the law then the person of Christ. I mean even I have made a lot of "self-made" laws .... so am I saved?

A good example are the Galatians ...

1 O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly portrayed crucified?

2 This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected [so that is a walk required] by the flesh?

I think Paul was quite clear even though the Galatians were "deceived" back to the law .... they are saved. Otherwise, the phrase "receive the Spirit" or "begun by the Spirit" .... will be ... very fickle indeed?

Well ... I guess everyone is trying to hold on to "I don't think there's in any sense punishment for believers anymore" ... then what is Paul talking about then if it is not losing the salvation?

If Paul mentioned that we need to be brought to maturity ... then what about those who are not matured? Then how?

Sorry for the late reply ... some errands.

Ah yes, if it the Jews .... but the Jews aren't the recipient of the parable in Matthew 25. It was only spoken privately to the disciples. Definitely the Jews won't wait for the Bridegroom or serve God as stewards as depicted in Matthew 25. The parable starts with the "kingdom of the heaven will be liken ...."

Regarding "fear and punishment" I think that kind of reaction is too negative. Firstly, then we should be positive to enjoy Christ to be a full grown man for God's expression. Paul is always charging us positively, forgetting the things behind; run telling us positively - forget the things behind ... run to claim the reward ... finish the race.

If we are Christians .... just because of the judgement seat .... what a pitiful Christian we will be. Yet we sometimes need this. Sometimes I am discouraged, the realization of a coming judgement is very sobering.

Yet, there is the matter of the gospel of the kingdom in contrast with the gospel of grace. The truth is always balanced. The highest enjoyment of grace is to meet the highest requirement of the kingdom. Matthew and John are sisters books. The kingdom and grace goes together. God's grace requires His strict dealing and vice versa.

It is a matter of God's righteousness (Psa 89:14). Peter was even stronger in his epistle. But while His governmental hand is there, His grace is there simultaneously.

Because of our natural concepts, we are prone to consider that the first item of the New Testament gospel is the forgiveness of sins and the second item is eternal life. Negatively our sins have been forgiven and positively we have eternal life. But in fact the first word of the New Testament gospel was to repent for the sake of the kingdom of the heavens (Matt. 3:2; 4:17). We need forgiveness of sins so that we can have eternal life, and we need eternal life so that we can be under the heavenly rule. The kingdom is the requirement of the gospel, and the life is the supply of the gospel. What the gospel requires, it also supplies. The gospel requires us to be governed and ruled by the heavens. The gospel also supplies us with the divine life for us to fulfill the requirements of the kingdom.

If we are going to meet the requirements of such a high standard, we must have a life that is on an equally high plane. Otherwise, we cannot meet such a high standard. Only the divine life can meet such a high standard. Only the divine life can meet the requirements of the heavenly government. The kingdom is the requirement of the New Testament gospel, and the eternal life, which is Christ Himself, is the supply. The divine life can fulfill the requirements of the kingdom. Once we see the matter of the kingdom, we can see how high a standard is required by the gospel. After we are saved, we have a heavenly requirement within us demanding us to live on a high level. This level can be reached only by the supply of the divine life.

We have to look beyond the dealings to God's goal to produce mature sons of God. This is why Paul's ministry was to present every man mature, full grown in Christ for the one new man (Col. 1:28-29; 3:10-11). It is either we lose the soul life this age or the next age (Matthew 16:25).

We are all going to arrive sooner or later. Why not sooner?

It is NOT a matter of sins. It is that our soul is not filled with Christ. This is to neglect His salvation. So, if we escape being matured in this age of grace. He will make sure we will all mature in the next. It is really mercy (like a 2nd chance) ... and God will definitely gain what He wants.

If you don't like the word punishment, you can decide ... perfecting, maturing, dealing .... however we put it .... we can never deny the reality of the kingdom, the kingdom in its reality, is an exercise and discipline for us in the church today (Matt. 5:3, 10, 20; 7:21). However, His grace is there. Marvelous!

Hope it helps ...

God know when to deal with you

Hebrews 12:7

7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons. For what son is there whom the father does not discipline?

Hebrews 12:8

8 But if you are without discipline, of which all sons have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

Hebrews 12:11

11 Now no discipline at the present time seems to be a matter of joy, but of grief; but afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been exercised by it.

Wow! Thank you for the swift and lengthy reply. But i still don't understand after reading over a few times.   
Some of the words make me more confused.   
Maybe i will just summon ThePope 

Hi Ms. ThePharmacist,

I am neither pope, pehkay but i would like to share something. hopefully it would be helpful.

Have you prayed like this: "Lord Jesus, help me to understand PehKay writings. I don't understand his writings. But I know YOU love me. I know YOU want me to be a mature Christian."

If you already did and still blur..blur... then maybe @ThePope can help further. perhaps he is tired leading worship today 

Matthew 8:12 says, “But the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.” It is very hard to justify sons of the kingdom as non believers. Also, Matt 5:48 - "You therefore shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" really shows who are the audience.

Matthew 22:13 says, “Then the king said to the servants, Bind his feet and hands, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.” This refers to the one who did not have a wedding garment. This, of course, does not refer to an unbeliever, but to a saved one. The King is preparing a wedding feast for His son.

This phrase is used two other times, in 24:51 and in 25:30. According to 24:51, the evil slave will be cut off from the Lord’s presence and have his portion with the hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The sister verse, 25:30, says that the slothful slave will be cast out into the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. By reading all these verses, we see that the false believers, the tares, and the evil Gentiles will be cast into the furnace of fire, the lake of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. However, the defeated believers, such as the sons of the kingdom in chapter eight, those without the wedding garment in chapter twenty-two, and the unfaithful slave in chapters twenty-four and twenty-five, will be cast out into the outer darkness. There, in the outer darkness, they will suffer weeping and gnashing of teeth. This does not refer to eternal perdition, but to dispensational punishment. In addition to salvation, there is still the matter of the reward and punishment that will be rendered during the coming kingdom age. If we are faithful to the Lord, we shall be rewarded during the next age. But if we are not faithful to Him, we shall receive punishment.

(Getting too long - at least this verse should be clear it was spoken to the disciples)
Matt 24:3 - And as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, When will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age?


Matthew 13:1 says, “On that day Jesus, going out of the house, sat beside the sea.” At the end of chapter twelve, the heavenly King, having been fully rejected by the Jewish leaders, made a break with them. On that day He went out of the house to sit beside the sea. This is very significant. The house signifies the house of Israel (10:6), and the sea signifies the Gentile world (Dan. 7:3, 17; Rev. 17:15). The King’s going out of the house to sit beside the sea signifies that after His break with the Jews, He forsook the house of Israel and turned to the Gentiles. It was after this that, on the seashore, He gave the parables concerning the mysteries of the kingdom. This signifies that the mysteries of the kingdom were revealed in the church. Hence, all the parables in this chapter were spoken to His disciples, not to the Jews.

In other words, the disciples understood and perceive.

The first four parables in Matthew 13 provide a clear picture of so-called Christianity [very negative - won't go there]. After giving forth these parables, the Lord privately spoke to His disciples the parables of the treasure hidden in the field and the pearl from the sea.

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The thought of it have to consistent with Matt 16 on losing the soul life too where the Lord reveal who He is including the first time, the revelation of the church. What does it mean here? Because it was definitely spoken to His disciples only.

Then, Paul's word on "being saved through fire" ...

And many more verses in Hebrews.

So, the framework of interpretation have to be really consistent ... ... and so I am very reluctant ...

Whoah ... that statement will be very "dangerous" .... mid-dispensationlist guys will argues for this and they are considered very ... er... at the edge of Christianity. We won't want to go there

Then we can freely say A BIG CHUNK of Matthew is not for us believers.
That's right, this is why salvation is we received Christ into us to be our righteousness, both objectively and subjectively. Isn't that what you like about Grace. Subjectively, we experience Christ's righteousness day by day. Aren't the saved Jews believers?
And yes, Gal 4:6 did says that we are sons!

So then you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, an heir also through God. This is why Gal 5 charges us to walk by the Spirit. Also, Gal 3:3 ... if we are perfected by the law; They lived according to law.

And Paul charges them to live "The righteous one shall have life and live by faith'';"

I think it's the same misunderstanding that it is never about initial salvation. And He did came as God of love and grace. But He also is the God of righteousness.

I am not minimizing the wonderful salvation God brought to the Prostitute. But He also says, "Go and sin no more" implies that there is a living, a condition to enjoy His salvation further.

The most important is not to confuse "work" in the on-going salvation as something apart from the operation of the Triune God. Which is why most people cringe .... because that is the thought in their mind. The truth is twofold ... I may have repeat too many times .... but still ....

I am starting to lose myself in the details ... what the premise again?

You guys really focus and determined. I totally lost track of all the episode. In conclusion?

Haha ... that ... is it not clear that it is not about redemption of our sins? It is not about the spiritual fact. It's an eternal fact beyond time and space.

Fact, faith and experience.

Are we applying the spiritual eternal fact to our daily experience? It's the faith to apply the spiritual fact to become our experience.

Today, we are God’s children through regeneration. But how are we progressing? Are we being sanctified and transformed every day? Are we growing in life? Are we serving Him as a faithful servant in the church life? So this is why we ... work out our salvation.

"So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;"

Anyway .... that's that ... I should stop for now

Exodus 6:7 (NIV)I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians*.

Matthew 10:39 (NLT) If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it.

Oi oi oi it's not just 'Christian girls' okay. Any girl also can do this. You must be dating one that's why come here and ask.
And I hope you realise that Christians are strongly discouraged from marrying/dating non Christians because usually it'll become a battle of wills. Your standards and her standards tak sama. Gaduh. Few mixed relationships end up positive.
Please respect her decision. That goes for any relationship not just Christians.

If she don't want to hold hands, don't. She's not ready for it.
If she declare in a relationship but don't recognize the bf it's her insecurity. Try and talk nicely why she's afraid to say it out loud. Is it because of stigma? Pressure?
If 'why take so long', why not ask yourself 'why do I want it so fast?'

If you can't even respect her current privacy then don't date. Seriously. Don't butthurt and then complain all Christian girls are like that when it's the guy who's pushing so hard for it. Why? Because guy trying to force his way through a girl's heart and most girls feel very violated over that.

It's like prying a flower when it's still a bud. You won't get a flower, you'll just get a botak stalk.

TDLR: Don't be a jerk. If you really love the girl you'll be patient. If she really loves you, she'll eventually open up.

u have a Christian bf, of course its easy for you to say la! Where got so many Christian girls to go arnd?

in church only left many aunties. If not, the good ones are all taken, either married or attch.

sometimes, even if you expand your pool to include non-believers also very hard to find the right one. What more if just limiting one self to believers.
The Bible says,

2 Cor 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

1 Cor 7:12 - 16 To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

p.s. Sophiera got any single frens to intro or not?  

Well, for most non believers. Converting is pretty easy. I mean religion means nothing to them, so converting just for the sake of even getting you as a partner(not life partner) is not hard.

Anyway,

No need to be too desperate. I guess even though I am pretty hard core, I am influenced really heavily by Korean Dramas and I would think that when you love someone, nothing else matters anymore.

Luke 8:15 (NIV) But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.