Hello everyone I'm new here (just registered on Lowyat.NET in fact), so pardon me for my ignorance especially with the forum's unspoken rules.

I've gone through Starting Strength for awhile back then (before doing SS, I was just like every other clueless but passionate biceps-curling guys in the gym for about a year ), and I'm now training on my own 4days-split (Deadlift, Squat, Bench Press and Press are the main focuses on each day).

This is what I heard:
1) If you have more muscles, it's easier for you to lose fat due to the higher BMR (as a result of having more lean mass)
2) If you bulk from a lower BF %, the mass you gain has more quality (as in gaining more muscles and less fat on a caloric surplus) compared to bulking from a higher BF % (I'm not sure how true is no.2)
3) To have a good physique in the long run I need to have a good foundation of strength

3 of these theories aren't contradicting with each other by themselves of course. However, it makes it hard for me to decide whether or not to continue bulking.
I'm currently still pursuing for more weights on the bar(refer to no.3), so naturally it should make sense for me to be in a caloric surplus. The problem now is that my BF % has obviously increased throughout these periods of strength training, especially visible on the belly (I started out skinny fat 40kg and have never seen my abs before).

I am 55.5kg (or a little higher since I've not been measuring for awhile) now, with very tiny girly bone frame.

These are my current main lifting numbers (5rep max)
Deadlift - 102.5kg
Squat - 72.5kg
Bench Press - 50kg
Overhead Press - 38.5kg

So my question is, should I just continue what I'm doing until I have a certain level of size and strength? Or is no.2 true and I should lower my BF % 1st to gain quality mass? It'd be hard for me to increase/maintain my lifts if I'm in a caloric deficit state. Tell me your opinion and what you think about the 3 rules I mentioned above.

whats your height bro?

man what's your height, at 55kg trying get ripped is still out of question, bulk up!

40kg, skinny fat. I can only imagine you as tall as 155cm. What's your height?

what's your diet?

My height is around 166cm. I had eating disorder during puberty so I have very thin and light bones.

This is how I looked like when I was in form 4 (16year-old). I started exercising after I felt heart pain (didn't dare to go for medical check up though) and muscles twitches so please don't hate, I started way below where everyone else did. In the beginning I couldn't do 1 push up or climb up the stairs without panting.
I'm now approaching 20year-old, hoping to make a change.

As for my diet, I'm not tempted to eat anything dirty like junk food/McD. My staple food are eggs, meat (fish/chicken/pork), rice/brown rice, some vege and fruits, olives, low fat/fresh milk, peanut butter, bread, tuna etc etc... Of course I'm still far from perfect in dieting but at the very least I don't eat no shit (unless my parents force me to in some cases).
The only supplements I take are Dymatize elite whey, Dymatize BCAA complex 5050 and Fish Oil.

As for my rest/recovery, I have very severe insomnia since puberty started and I have a very irregular sleeping pattern (still trying to fix it). I try to get around 8hours of sleep per day but it's sort of irregular and broken into parts.

Please answer the questions of my 1st post but feel free to ask me if you need more info to figure things out. Thanks


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It seems like I'm naturally better at deadlifting (I have big quads, hamstring, glutes compared to my upper body). As for the abs they're underneath a thick layer of fat of course
On the other hand my bench press is very weak and I have a hard time moving the weights up.
I tried for many times eating conservatively and saw no results in both strength and size.

YES.

Hey Kar Weng,

1) Fact is, muscles do affect a person's RMR (Resting Metabolic Rate), but no matter how much RMR you gain from putting on extra muscles, you cannot escape the perils of caloric overconsumption. Plus, rather than your muscles, your organs are the ones which play a more significant role in affecting your RMR as they are more active. So, IMO, don't sweat too much on LBM and RMR, but rather, start calculating your maintanence calories, and taper them according to your goals of either weight gain/ loss.

2) I am personally not a fan of the bulk and cut cycle that many gym goers carry out. The best benefit i can think of in terms of maintaining your bodyfat around a controlled range is the fact that progress and gains can be easily monitored, because fat gain would be minimal, and can be easily factored out.

I personally think that bodyfat % is really not that big of a deal, as it is also really relative. The amount of bodyfat i hold could remain the same, but the percentage would decrease just by me increasing my muscle mass.

3) Strength, or Progression in general, should be the main aim of every single gym goer who's serious about seeing results. It's good that you're striving for progression on your Big 3 (Deads, Squats, Benches). Throw in some chin ups for volume and the routine, as well as your physique would be solid.

If you're progressing on these main workouts (Bench Deads Squats Chins), you should have a pretty good physique already. Throw in some bicep curls, tricep pull downs, lateral raises and your physique should be balanced.


Whether you should eat at a caloric deficit or surplus to achieve strength goals, i would definitely go for the latter. However, that doesn't mean you have to resort to looking like Snorlax to be able to put more weight on the bar.

Many people regard aesthetics rather highly, and i understand that. So my advice for you would be to figure out your maintanence calories, and up that by 10-20%. For example, if my maintanence calorie was 2500 calories, i would bulk with ~3000 calories rather than going crazy at the 4000-5000 calorie range. This way, you're getting the hormonal optimization without slapping on too much fat.

My philosophy to bulk and cut is as such: Eat as little as you need to bulk, eat as much as you need to cut.

Hope my post helps, and if anything i've written sounds like horseshit to you, please comment and let me know why, honestly would appreciate the learning experience .

P.s, check out my facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/fastfoodphysique

Bro, since you were so skinny and still is, you shouldn't really have to avoid good stuff like McD. You should list out what you eat everyday so everyone can judge. But since you're so skinny and you're eating clean. Chances are you're still under eating.

Bout your deadlift, I've seen people around your height doing as heavy as you are and they're quite big. Are you sure about your form? Deadlift is something you should focus on your form, you could be buying a one way ticket to snap city if you're doing heavy with shitty form (of course pretty much everything else).

You should be more flexible in your diet, check out dirty food thread in this forum and IIFYM. You don't have to torment yourself since you have to do this as a lifestyle. Or you enjoy eating clean the rest of your life.

I'm not sure if I'm still skinny (cause I can see the belly), I have really thick legs, glutes and traps, but my show-off muscles (chest and arms) are quite small compared to other gym goers who are not even as strong as I am. Also I do have some bicep curls and tricep extension in my training routine, and I understand that they should not substitute the place of my important main lifts.

As for my form yes I'm pretty sure it's fine (straight posterior chain and all that). I watch a lot of lifting videos on Youtube especially form big channels like Omarisuf and Johnnie Candito (P.S I hate Mike Chang he's a total fraud) and I know what good form is (I also read T-Nation articles whenever available). I once started to round my back a little so I began doing paused DL which fixed the problem altogether. When I DL heavy the ppl in my gym will stare at me cause powerlifting moves is not a thing there (bicep curling is) and also I look small. The staff even though I'd break their floor doing DL =.= Btw I do my DL barefoot now (somewhat shorter range of motion).

And I know what is IIFYM, will definitely check the dirty food thread out
I usually eat dirty when I'm socializing (don't wanna be a b**** here). I personally don't get tempted easily by delicious but "dirty" food by now so I won't consider it a torment. My family eat things like Maggi on a daily basis though so they think I'm insane.
Thanks for your insights !

My objective is a good physique in the long run, but having 6pack now will do me no different than a obese girl with big boobs. So I heard gaining strength 1st is my priority, which is why I'm focusing on my lifts now. My problem is just that I don't wanna turn into the big belly "office uncle" look.

Hmm, toning means cutting right (I don't believe in spot-reduce fat)? I don't have much knowledge about cutting. If I do exactly the same thing I'm doing in the gym now but eating a caloric deficit then technically I'm doing a cut isn't it? Or should I change into a specific program for cutting? Cause caloric deficit would mean lower strength (or have anyone did it but still had strength gains? Please share!), making my training now pretty futile, doing nothing except struggling to maintain that puny strength I have now (which is boring).

Thanks in advance!!

Hey I think the stuffs you said are pretty relevant. 1 question though, how do I actually calculate my maintenance calorie? I tried a machine in Tesco (which charges only RM1) and I'm not convinced at all by the result cause it's very inaccurate according to my experience and knowledge.

When I said BF% I just want to get a rough idea, I do understand that it is in no way absolute (but relative in many ways, both in terms of gaining muscles=lowering BF% like you said, and the perception of others, e.g one might think you look lean even if on the scale you have high "BF%").

That's interesting! My philosophy of bulk and cut is going for a lean mass phase (to gain quality muscles) and doing what they call a "recompostion" to shed off extra fats gained. But I have yet to achieved such an ideal state.

Also I want to know how my bones affect this lifting game? Cause FYI I have wrists less than 5inches, and my shoulder bones are only as wide as my gf's (she's quite small-sized). Sometimes I feel smaller than every guy around me that doesn't even go into the weight room (or even care about exercising). I have a hard time buying things like gloves and shoes cause my feet and hands usually fit only the female sizes, and I find it impossible to grow my bones no matter what I try. Any thoughts?
To give you a rough idea of my bone frame this is another of my 16 year-old picture (my bone did not grow since then, only muscles).


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http://www.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/ : A good site to get a pretty good measure of your TDEE/ RMR.

In regards to wrist size, bone structure: Life's a b****, everyone gets dealt with bad hands in certain departments. But I believe with proper tweaking, everyone can still progress to a respectable level. Most importantly, know what it is you really want, do the very best with what you're given, and take setbacks as learning experiences.

like what some were sayin. u need to noe ur TDEE / RMR in order to noe u r consumin too much or wat. usual for clean bulk, its roughly 10% more than ur existingTDEE. havin more n more visible belly is not agood sign though..

edited: typo

This post has been edited by low yat 82: Apr 11 2014, 09:27 AM

Show your pic so the sifus here can tell you better, imo

if you have a point to make, make it.

QFT. Good points. I especially agree with your second point. Sticking to a slight caloric surplus which allows for gaining up to 2lbs a month is a good place to be to keep fat gain at a minimum. (Or really, whatever amount weight gain, as long as you're still looking fine in the mirror)

Just an alternative link: http://iifym.com/iifym-calculator/

OP, of course, the figures you get here are just estimations. What you need to do is use these figures as a starting point. You should try to monitor your weight daily, that way you can get an average weight gain figure over a week/month since daily fluctuations are expected. If the calculators say you're meant to be gaining weight with 2800 calories a day, but after 1-2 weeks you haven't gained any, it's safe to assume that's your maintenance level and you should up the intake. Adjust accordingly if you're losing or gaining too much weight.

As for the original question, I would say just keep going at it. Ultimately, you want to be as strong and as big as you can be; and that takes time. Also, it seems like you've got a good routine going but I'll just throw this in anyway. Don't forget the accessory and isolation movements, they're arguably as important as the big compounds for helping to prevent imbalances and just overall development.

continue bulking up!

yea for skinny ppl like u, u can easily adjust ur diet to become bulk, so envious since ppl like me always need to make sure calories is deficit in order to not bulk and gain fat at the same time

Wrong false statement with wrong assumption.

Correct.

Stop posting.

If you think I'm the type that bulks up easily and have high metabolism then you're wrong. I gain fat easily in the belly when bulking up and I don't think I"m lucky at all. I'm small but I wont say skinny, more like skinny fat.

Alright then ! But I don't have a camera in my house so it'll have to wait a few days, I'll be sure to post my current pictures up (do I need to capture my legs too?)! Thanks~

Thanks a lot BicepTricep! Really helpful guy you are. I tried the calculator but I don't know my BF% (it says it's optional). What it asked for was only my height and weight which I doubt will give a sufficiently accurate TDEE (then I must do some adjustment with my eating to know). Also which formula should I use for my BMR there?

It's sad I score so little in the physical department here... For one I hate to have girly hands but I can't do anything about it.

belly is a sure thing to happen when you bulk. dont be afraid

don't be sad le, even girly hands can turn into warlock grade, monster slaying, excalibur wielding, demon banishing sized arms given you take time doing it over and over again, same intensity, adding weights overtime, maybe by a year if you do it right you'll get a noticeable results.

I concur. Consistency.

bro you a beast already, deltoid definition is so overpowering i can only imagine ppl disengage their stare at you after 5 seconds of awe when you walk on the streets brah!

I've been training for awhile (of course not as long as all the sifus here ) but I only see growth in my arms and forearms muscles lolbut really not at all for the hands. I don't think there's a training for bone growth. My hands size almost same as my gf and my mom and smaller than some girls argh....

kid i'm not that hardcore of a bodybuilder, but when i first start at form 3 i started to pushup 30 and increase ever other day/week by the time i'm form five i got to 80 everyday i grind it man, and i still look at my forearm and wrist and think it is spaghetti arms, but after a while if u keep doing them, yes my wrist is probably still the same size, hands too, but the thing is when you walk around ppl can see how your sleeves is filled with toned tris and bis and if your foerarm have some definition man, shit they won't be looking at your small wrist man when all your other body parts is overshadowing it, maybe wide shoulders and all man, just work at it kid , good things will come out of it that's for sure

Mate, I've got tiny hands for a guy and small wrists as well. Can't do anything about hand size, but small wrists mean bigger looking forearms, so it works out.

Thanks man. People think I'm going for the upcoming physique comp. I said no. Lol, too lazy to diet. I train for leisure and fun.

Larger version.



This post has been edited by darklight79: Apr 14 2014, 08:22 PM

Wow that's really good! I only did my 1st proper push up (only 1 rep) when I was about to finish form5. I came all the way to where I am now and of course I'll continue working on it. I'll pack on however much muscles I can on this tiny frame of mine
Btw my dad have bigger structure than me. Could it be that I've stunted my growth in puberty? As I've mentioned earlier I ate stuffs like maggi mee and junk food on a daily basis, sleep only a few hours daily (playing online games in the midnights), could not jog 100m without panting or do a push up (and my muscles twitch when I sleep). I'm not exaggerating and it could've been much worse cause that's all I remember. This lifestyle went on from form1 to form4.

Yup it does give the illusion of my muscles looking bigger when I look into the mirror haha (due to contradiction).
But when any random grown-up guy stands beside me I instantly get dwarfed
Life's a b**** haha.

Anyhow, thanks each and everyone of you here for contributing your respective thoughts, insights, ideas and opinions. I'm beginning to like this forum cause of the quick responses and helpful community!

And so for my opening question, I'd get into a conclusion and continue bulking clean for now!

Btw, I've been thinking, should I continue what I'm doing now or should I try 5/3/1 Big But Boring? I really enjoy what I'm doing now and have been seeing okay gains (gained muscles, fats and strength altogether).
Also the most I could Deadlift in my gym (cause all the plates are in a Crossfit room which I have no permission to access) now is 103.5kg (I can lift for 5 reps with proper form). I wont be moving to another gym till I get into a university so what can I do now? Continue to go for higher reps? Or wear shoes to make the range of motion longer?

my case coz i'm active in highschool was playing basketball watching slamdunk saw ouzumi do dumbell curl in one episode form 4 bought 10kg dumbell for birthday for 50 rm in carefour ahahaha i remember the days la sumore i join karate form 3 also so active lifestyle la.

the stunted issue, im not too sure la, but i myself eat alot of indo mee, i really like it, now im just a casual bodybuilder, not much definition but if girls see they will comment also la , even guys also will always touch here and there.

though i have a friend last time who is quite crazy and do crazy lift and he's a bit short i think also because he's malnutrition with all that bodybuliding without proper supplement (when ur in highschool you cant afford ON protein shake anyways)

my advice forget about your past brother! start slowly proper form, focus on big compound movement, those deadlift squats bench press all will pay off one day la dun worry start slow and grind the hardwork week in week out, ur fren will soon comment that your body is too big later.

bro blowing up other ppls brain already when you blow up the pic.

Well, I'm halfway into my cutting phase. I never really had problems being lean but it's my first time trying to shred. As in really shred. I'll post up a progress shot in 2-3 weeks time.

Keeping strength up is important on a cut. Pulled a 435lbs x 4 deadlift yesterday.

This post has been edited by darklight79: Apr 14 2014, 11:06 PM

current weight and height?
target weight and BF%

i can never get shredded with all the weekend dating and malaysian food , nasi lemak and indo mee, mamak is such a crazy place i often hang out with fren.

Bro, usually when on a cut you'll some of the strength right? Mind give some tips on how to keep up your strength when on deficit?

Like this?

Lol, if you know what I eat on a cut, what you label junk is nothing. 5'8" 67.8kg, less than 9%bf. probably lower but I'd rather overestimate than underestimate to keep my expectations high.

Yes, pick up heavy shit, put it down. Repeat.

Thanks for putting up a steroid induced freakshow pic up there as a fine example to all the newbies here. Don't get you.

Any formula should be fine, they don't stray away from one another too much IMO.

Again, the only thing that you should be doing regarding your genetics is this : f*** it.
Do the best you can with what you have, don't rue whatever's handed to you. I had small wrists too, and a particularly weak grip for that matter. I compensated by doing a lot of rack pulls, farmers walk when i was trying to break my deadlift plateau of 165kg. I'm pulling around 180kg today.

Point is, there's always a way around things, don't get disheartened, don't give up.

Here's a pic of my wrist and how i worked around it to build a decent back.



www.facebook.com/fastfoodphysique

This post has been edited by BicepTricep: Apr 15 2014, 03:53 PM

bro that's like the most boss advice anyone can give! you're such a fckin boss!

I'm really interested in knowing what you consume during your cut sessions. bro sub 10% i can never manage le, tried cabbage and leeks soup diet for 2 1/2 day i fckin quit b4 i can even see the results. story of my life in a nutshell.

Oh ye of little faith....

bro seriously waffles is on your cut diet? i can die knowing i just don't have the gift of hyperbolic metabolism edi.

okay, bad example

ya need to buy a blackhole device that he have installed in his stomach

LOL you must be new here, this is nothing compared to his "real" meals. hahaha

just check out his earlier posting.

LOL!

why not brown rice, suffer a bit la for us mere mortal to feel a bit good for ourselves, u sir deserves a big FU.

Brown rice is shit. I'd say eat it only if you like it, not cos you force yourself to eat it. Heh...

yeah no my belief is always to eat anything coz what's the point of working out every week if you can't eat mcDs and all. But i mean i already accept the fact if i don't eat clean i wont get to the next shredded level , u on the other hand............ I hate to use mirin in a sentence, but im mirin so fckin much.

I think it's possible for everyone. It's just that people get too influenced by conventional methods out there. Then the typical magazines and adverts of supplements featuring bodybuilders who're heavily on steroids don't help either.
So we follow, and we fail. Their strength, physiques and size are completely different.
Not to take anything away from them but when I see them pounding away with so called "heavy weights", I'm not that impressed because of the knowledge that they're on chem assistance.

yeah i can never justify foing the GH and steroids route. I did know some frens last time who attain unimaginable physiques in a year but then again they did entered comp around malaysia , but til today im glad i havent touch them. probably is comfortable with going casual in bbuilding, and would probably one day try my hardest to get uber shredded in the distant future.

Let me put it this way. Juicers or non juicers, to achieve their peak, they both do work hard but the satisfaction as a NATURAL is a lot greater.
And sometimes at night, the ones who juice will probably be wondering how much of their current physiques are achieved through pure hard natural work or with AAS. They will never, ever know.

So take pride in the fact that progress as a natural, though more difficult is more rewarding.

Tbh in the end it only matters if YOU. You're the one who'd decide and what you want to achieve. Even thought it takes progress and time but you'll be glad or happy because that what makes difference between others. Pure dedication and discpline. Me as myself i enjoy being natural and healthy

Agreed. Being natural does not mean that you can't get your body to the next level. It's all about hard work and dedication, plus having good genetics to some degree.