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 Belkin Surge Protectors, How to switch off individual devices

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Mea Culpa
post Mar 1 2014, 12:12 PM

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QUOTE(westom @ Feb 27 2014, 12:40 PM)
Nobody has won anything.  We have not even discussed how your satellite dish is earthed to avert damage.  We only discussed part of that system: where coax enters the building.
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I think youre missing a point here. How are we going to provide "earth ground" to this whole house surge protector when you need to feed it with wires <3m running to the copper rod , most case its illegal to plant your own rods and wires in apartments. Its either the bulding already have earth ground not just safety ground provided by eletricity company. MOVs still can take small surge and dissipates it internally, but it dies after taking few strikes. surge that is not so destructive but with extreme spikes that could damage intergrated circuits. Your method only helps in landed property.

This post has been edited by Mea Culpa: Mar 1 2014, 12:21 PM
Mea Culpa
post Mar 4 2014, 07:07 AM

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QUOTE(westom @ Mar 1 2014, 01:21 PM)
A building must already have an earth ground.  Which is different from safety grounds found in power points.  Details depend on construction and relevant codes. Question of how to connect to earth ground is answered unique to each building.  Only defined here are characteristics of that essential connection.

MOVs do not die after a few strikes.  Grossly undersized protectors (profit centers) fail quickly.  Urban hearsay calls that acceptacle.  Undersizing means larger profits.  A resulting early failure gets most naive customers to recommend it.  Worse, grossly undersized means a potential fire.

For example, one MOV manufacturer describes how to test his product.    How can it be tested with 10,000 surges before degrading (not failing catastrophically; only degrade)? It is not grossly undersized.

Better protectors are more robust to remain functional even after multiple lightning strikes.  But that means one from a manufacturer that puts more money into the protector;  less money into advertising and profits.

Appliances already contain robust protection.  For example, an integrated circuit that, by itself, can be damaged by 20 volts.  Same interface semiconductor can withstand 15,000 volts when integrated as part of a system:
http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds/MAX1487E-MAX491E.pdf

If not using a 'whole house' solution, then next best protection is inside electronics.
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Apartments always have earth ground but i doubt they were ever meant for surge protection intergration for most buildings, but its there to serve the lightning rod. They obviously fail the 3 meter length from earth.

Why use cheapo undersized surge protection? Like you said many times most if not all appliances already have surge protection builtin so why bother with surge protection? one the most common culprit , the phone line. Most device only provide protection for powerline input.

HDMI 50mA spec is argueble the most sensitive one. Surge protector does not provide continuos overcurrent protection.

One of the common problems of HDTV is dead HDMI ports. Where do you think these overcurrent coming from?
1. From telephone line connected to router , then to media player and via HDMI then to the tv HDMI sink.
2. Excessive current leakage from switch mode power supply (poor or bad filtering)into the device secondary ground and 5+vs hdmi interface.
3. Surge from AC into hdmi interface. Note that most device already have some form of protection.

A cheapo phone line surge protector mov , esd or even thermal fuse type suffice for those using wired interface to the hdtv, but wireless or fiberoptic solve this problem.

External low capacitance HDMI Esd/surge protection is expensive, atleast it offers some protection against common failures. Some hdtv may have builtin hdmi esd, but 1 hit renders the port useless, replacing or repairing it is not as easy as replacing a fuse, or it might not even be repairable without board replacement.

For landed property, nothing is simpler than whole house protection.

This post has been edited by Mea Culpa: Mar 4 2014, 09:04 AM
Mea Culpa
post Mar 4 2014, 01:18 PM

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QUOTE(westom @ Mar 4 2014, 12:38 PM)
Plenty of good questions.

  Earth ground exists according to code for human safety.  Codes really do not care about transistor safety.  But use that same earth ground to also protect transistors.  This earth electrode is completely diferent from one that might connect a lightning rod to earth.  That is typically a comopletely different earth ground for a current path that never enters a building.

  Now, if the AC electric earth ground did not exist, then a voltage difference could exist between the neutral or safety ground wire and the floor.  That is a threat to human life if voltage is high enough.  And an example of what is called a floating ground.

  So that significant voltage differences do not exist between neutral, safety ground, and the floor, an earth ground connects to other grounds at a single point. Often the main power panel. In some older venues, the only earth ground is back at the transformer.  That means less human safety and must be modified also for transistor safety.

  For surge protection, this earth ground connection must be even shorter, have no sharp bends, and other electrical characteristics that exceed safety code requirements.  Only then can every incoming wire be surge protected.  If connected short to earth directly (ie cable TV) or via a 'whole house' protector (ie telephone, AC electtric).

  High fise apartements might use a steel I-beam as an excellent earth ground.  So some construction earths a main power panel to the attached or adjacent I-bean.  As noted earlier, what is earth ground is unique to codes and how it was done in that building.
  HDMI failure is a perfect example of a surge current that is both incoming and outgoing via the appliance.  A common incoming path is AC mains.  Since TV cable is often properly earthed, then a best outgoing path is via that HDMI port and somehow to cable.  First a surge current is everywhere in a path from the cloud, through a TV, and out via cable to distant charges.  Later a weakest point in that path fails.  A most common 'weakest point' is the outgoing path -  HDMI ports.

  Protection means that current must not even enter a building.  Then that current does not hunt for weak links including HDMI ports, USB ports, RS-232 connections, and RF amplifiers on satellite receievers.  Usually (but not always), these damaged ports are the outgoing path.  Not the incoming path as so many only speculate into a conclusion.

  Damage from leakage is, well, galvanic isolation required in all electronics designs means the appliance will often withstand upwards of 1000 volt transients without leaking excessive current.  And will leak only microamps in normal operation.  Otherwise an RCD would intermittently nuisance trip. 
  All appliarnces have robust protection.  That is why 'dirty' pouwer often from a UPS in battery backup mode causes no damage.  Your concern is not 'near zero' surges so often hyped to promote magic plog-in protectors.  Your concern is a rare surge, maybe once every seven years, that can overwhelm protection inside appliances.  Surge protection is always about the big and destructive transient.  Constant (and trivial) overvoltages cause no damage.  Surge protector (not to be confused with the other word protection) must be sized so as to not fail on destructive surges.  Then a consumers does not know a surge even existed.

  Many advocate fiber opitcs, et al to cure the problem.  Why?  For over 100 years - long beore fiber existed - these surges existed without damage.  I recently defined major damage to one venue that was using fiber.  Again, a surge entered on AC mains.  It found earth ground destrutively via a multi-function printer on a fax connection.  If replaces its surge protector to restore that printer.  That phone line entered on fiber (for TV, internet, and phone).  But again, the outgoing path to earth was that telephone line to a fiber optic interface box - that was properly earthed.

  Again, protection is always about earthing every single incoming wire.  If any wire enters without that low impedance connection to earth, then protection is compromised.   Once that surge current is inside, it will go hunting destructively for earth via appliances of its choice.  Protectiono is always about no surge current inside.

  Do not put a protector on the HDMI port.  Suggesting that says one does not get itt.  What is a path from the cloud to distant earthborne charges?  If that path has any reason to be inside a building, then protection is ineffective.  Protection is always about connecting a current to earth as far as possible away from appliances.  Protection increases with separation between appliances and a protector.  Protection increases with every foot shorter from protector to earth.  Obviously an HDMI protector has no place and does nothing useful in the well proven concepts of surge protection.
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But that was not the case. Most ppl would just TURN OFF their HDTVs when they heard the 1st thunder, which means no AC at all. But end result they still end up with dead router modems, media players and HDMI port, this is not uncommon at all. Phone lines have low operating voltage a simple cheapo surge protector with thermal fuse could have save all the trouble.

An external HDMI ESD should provide extra protection to voltage sensitive circuits.

This post has been edited by Mea Culpa: Mar 4 2014, 02:00 PM
Mea Culpa
post Mar 4 2014, 02:37 PM

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QUOTE(westom @ Mar 4 2014, 02:11 PM)
Those conclusions are invalid for many reasons.  The most obvious one: assumptions are devoid of numbers.  No numbers is a first indication of junk science reasoning.

First:
1) Turn it off?  Will a millimeter gap in a switch stop what three kilometers of sky could not?  Of course not.

  2)  Turning it off only disconnects one wire.  Other AC wires remain connected - also destructive surge paths.

3)  Fuse takes tens of millisconds or longer to trip.  Surges do damage in microseconds.  Easily, 300 consecutive surges could pass through a fuse before it even thought about blowing.

4) Surges are a current source.  That means voltage will increase as necessary to blow through any blocking device.  An open switch or fuse may claim 250 volts.  That means a surge simply increases voltages above 250 volts to conduct (blow) through that switch or fuse.

  Nothing stops a surge even though advertising wants all to promote that protection myth.  Any device that claims to stop a surge is bogus - a profit center.  Furthermore humans rarely are avaiable to disconnect or turn off anything. (8 hours sleeping, 8 hours working, 2 hours doing body maintenance, etc).  Disconnecting depends are a very unreliable actor - the human.  Furthermore surges even do damage before anyone knows a storm is approaching.  And that includes other surge sources such as stray cars, utility switching, and pesky rodents.

Second:  Disconnecting means everything must be disconnecxted.  That includes the air conditioner, all clocks, refrigerator, and the most important devices during a surge - smoke detectors.

Third:  An operating voltage is completely different from what devices can withstand without damage.  Phone may operate at -48 volts or lower.  But phones long have been designed to withstand up to 600 volts transients without damage ... for longer than anyone here has even existed.

  Ethernet has tens of times lower operating voltages.  And also must withstand up to 2000 volt transients without damage.  Do not confuse operating voltages with other voltages.

  Previously provided was a datasheet for an interface chips - single digit voltage signals - and also withstand up to 15,000 volts.

Fourth:  A thermal fuse disconnects protector parts as fast as possible.  To avert a house fire. An emergency device to only protect human life.  Thermal fuse leaves a surge connected to appliances.  Some only assume that maybe 1 amp thermal fuse does appliance protection.  It doesn't.  A blown fuse is the homeowner's last warning that his protecxtor was grossly undersized and a potential house fire.

Finally: for over 100 years, there has been no alternative to this well proven concept.  Protection is about diverting surge currents to earth on a path that does not enter the bulding.  Either hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly outside. Or that current goes hunting for earth destructively via appliances ... no matter what magic device or disconnecting tries to stop it.  Those other techniques and protector are only for systems that first properly earth a surge current BEFORE it can enter a structure.

Protetion is always about and performed by earth ground.
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What other option do you have besides whole house protection? Yes its the simplest solution and the most effective one, but will it be viable to everyone living in apartments?

All AV equipments should be under 1 powerstrip, unplugging that ONE solved all the trouble, and just use wireless network for interconnectivity.

Keyword : only unplug your "precious" biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Mea Culpa: Mar 4 2014, 02:41 PM
Mea Culpa
post Mar 4 2014, 07:23 PM

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QUOTE(westom @ Mar 4 2014, 12:38 PM)
  HDMI failure is a perfect example of a surge current that is both incoming and outgoing via the appliance.  A common incoming path is AC mains.  Since TV cable is often properly earthe,d, then a best outgoing path is via that HDMI port and somehow to cable.  First a surge current is everywhere in a path from the cloud, through a TV, and out via cable to distant charges.  Later a weakest point in that path fails.  A most common 'weakest point' is the outgoing path -  HDMI ports.


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The bolded is what you called assumptions devoid of numbers aka junk science reasoning, no?

Tv connected to media player via hdmi then to phone line cable via lan port of media player to router is properly earth? So now the phone line somewhat properly earthed? We are talking about surge that could jump accros open switch, are we not?

pls provide your source or ref where the weakest point is the hdmi port? If the surge was outgoing it would have taken many other more sensitive internal parts not just an HDMI port considering it could travel across an open switch.

This post has been edited by Mea Culpa: Mar 4 2014, 08:13 PM
Mea Culpa
post Mar 4 2014, 08:11 PM

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QUOTE(neb @ Mar 4 2014, 03:26 PM)
from my personal experience I got a couple of cordless phones fried by lightning presumably through telephone line, or could be from high voltage surge through tenaga power line, now no more lightning problem after installing lightning isolation devices at both telephone line and power line
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Whole house single point or point-of-use surge protection?

This post has been edited by Mea Culpa: Mar 4 2014, 08:16 PM
Mea Culpa
post Mar 5 2014, 06:39 AM

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QUOTE(paskal @ Mar 4 2014, 10:43 PM)
niceeeee.... voltage increase to compensate current to blow through a fuse or switch.

you go westom. explain to these little b****es us the proper way to insulate our house from those damned lightning strike surges. we need more guidance from you.
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It would be much helpful if his advice here doesnt require readers to have a Bac. Degree in electrical engineering to understand, just plain simple english.

His arguement is basically without "whole house" protection with single point earth, those point-at-use SPD or surge protectors (either MOV or TVSS) are nothing but bogus product which does nothing more than appliance internal protection.

i think this is partially correct that is if the neutral is not properly connected to local earth at entrance. (Not to be confused with safety ground which is the return path of shorted/fault current to neutral). But is this the case with all houses and apartments? The protection could already exist at buildings service entrance, but the units owner do not know for sure.

So those CAL-Lab or belkin is not nessarily bogus products even without whole house protector. It is also a fact that these protectors doest fully really work without proper earthing, as they cant possibly absorb 100% energy from the surge; partially .. Yes.

This post has been edited by Mea Culpa: Mar 5 2014, 09:57 AM
Mea Culpa
post Mar 5 2014, 10:35 AM

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QUOTE(westom @ Mar 5 2014, 10:11 AM)
Again, a main power panel for each apartment may have its own 'less than 3 meter' earth ground by bonding to an adjacent I-beam.  But again, this would be unique to that building.  And made obvious by inspection.  Other options also were described.

A point of use protector does not necessarily add protection as demonstrated by posted manufacturer spec numbers.  Often inferior to protection already inside appliances.  In some cases, it has made appliance damage easier (ie bypassing protection already inside the appliance).  And can be so undersized as to, in rare cases, cause a fire.

  Better than a point of use protector without a 'whole house' protector IS just using the appliance.  Then superior protection is not compromised by an adjacent protector.

  A 'plug-in' protector does not claim to  protect from a typically destructive surge.  Obviously - no earth ground.  And still many recommend it only because it is called a protector.

Provided are no facts or numbers that say a Belkin or Cal-Lab provides protection,   Where is the Belkin numeric spec that claims protection?  Never provided.

  We traced surges through equipment because a protector (too close to appliance and without earth ground) earthed a surge destructively through the computer.  We literally traced that surge path by replacing each semiconductor in that surge path.  Completely restored the hardware.  And made it woefully obvious to naysayers that an adjacent protector compromised protection inside that computer.

  Without a 'whole house' solution, a plug-in protector creates additional problems.  Even manufacturer specifications do not claim protection that others have only assumed.
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Never said plug-ins provide full protection, they were meant for precaution. if destructive lightning surge earthed at main entrance before entering individual units of apartments, what is the chance of big surges entering the units? only Small surges, the COMMON ones. Unless you mean a direct hit to your unit.

Only AVs are more prone to damage from surge compared to other appliances, just group then under 1 plug, unplug when necessary. Even internal surges can damage components like HDMI, eg. hotplugging during powering up of PC.

This post has been edited by Mea Culpa: Mar 5 2014, 10:37 AM
Mea Culpa
post Mar 5 2014, 11:26 AM

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QUOTE(westom @ Mar 5 2014, 11:18 AM)
Numbers were provided for destructive surges.  Maybe one every seven years.  A number that can vary significantly even in the same town.

  Correct. You did not say a Belkin provides full protection.  But I said a Belkin or Cal-Lab can even compromise (bypass) existing and superior protection. May even create less protection.  A problem even described in an IEEE paper.

  What maybe should be taken more serously?  Static electric discharges.
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Copper water piping perhaps. Because these structures are normally earth bonded. Id normally touch them to discharge statics on my body. Grounded metal casing will do too.

Btw the external HDMI dongles are ESD devices. Sometimes market as "hdmi protector"

This post has been edited by Mea Culpa: Mar 5 2014, 11:44 AM
Mea Culpa
post Mar 5 2014, 11:46 AM

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Btw the external HDMI dongles are ESD protection devices. Sometimes market as "hdmi protector " its also equipped with Transient voltage suppressor diodes and a backdrive current protection.

This post has been edited by Mea Culpa: Mar 5 2014, 02:13 PM
Mea Culpa
post Mar 5 2014, 02:47 PM

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Some plug-in protectors offers feature that whole house protector do not, such as sustained overvoltage/ undervoltage protection.

This post has been edited by Mea Culpa: Mar 5 2014, 03:26 PM

 

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