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 Home Electrical MCB, How to size Miniature Circuit Breaker

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Sydneguy
post Oct 10 2013, 12:44 AM

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QUOTE(stevie8 @ Oct 9 2013, 10:58 PM)
Thanks for the replies.

But the problem is few socket/power point to one MCB. So, if on all together total load could be more than 20A.

Let me check one by one and post here again.
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1) The solution to this particular problem is to add more MCB and split some of the socket to the extra MCB.

2) As others have mentioned using 32A MCB with writing only meant for 10, 15 or 20A MCB will lead to fire when there is an overload.

3) fire you electrician and get one that gives good advice.
Sydneguy
post Oct 10 2013, 07:51 PM

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QUOTE(stevie8 @ Oct 10 2013, 07:40 PM)
Any electrician real good and qualified one to recommend?
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Sorry I don't. I'm also looking for one .
Sydneguy
post Oct 10 2013, 07:54 PM

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QUOTE(stevie8 @ Oct 10 2013, 07:44 PM)
How man? The existing DB Box is full and I have so many power points and dont know how it was connected if one wire shares many points.  rclxub.gif
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You can get electrician to add an extra sub-board, either next to the existing one or some other place in your house then run 60A or 100A cable from that sub-DB back to your main DB.

But I expect that will cost something like RM1-2k including hardware (RM700-1200).

Cheers.
Sydneguy
post Oct 10 2013, 08:37 PM

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QUOTE(stevie8 @ Oct 10 2013, 08:07 PM)
l.

Also, the wires now terminated at the DB box and how to connect to another place without major re-wiring?

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Yeap, sorry to say it wont be a simple job.

If you have usstairs and downstairs then most of the wires will run from upstairs to downstairs at the same place, somewhere near the DB, most likeley just above it.

Then the easiest solution is to put a sub-BD upstairs near that common location and connect all those wires from upstairs into that DB, then run one big wire downstairs to the main DB. now your upstairs sub-DB should have several spare CB slot, and you will have freed up several CB slot in the downstairs DB. then can add in extra DB as required.

In Australia most of our internal and even most external walls are cavity walls, so its very easy to run extra wires.

Here in Malaysia the wires usually plastered into the brick wall so have to hack the wall to run new wires. If your super lucky the electrician will have placed some conduit in the birck/concrete wall and you can pull a new wire through that without hacking the wall, but from what ive seen that is very very very rare case in Malaysia.

Cheers
Sydneguy
post Oct 10 2013, 09:19 PM

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Just for comparison purposes here is my current DB. Its quite small, but its only for a 3 bedroom 1200sqft Condo with only 4 AC, 3 of which are hardly ever used.

There are 12 CB.

5 pcs 32 A
4 pcs 20A
and
3 pcs 6 A

the RCB is 0.3A

and the Main CB is only 32A.

I once tried to map out which lights and power sockets got to which CB but i gave up after only a few as it didnt make much sense. In particular some CB had both Lights and power socket on the the same CB, which is a big NO-NO is Oz but not sure about the wiring rules here.

My the power sockets for the Kitchen, laundry and common bathroom also also seem to be on one CB, since i have tripped it a few times when I have I had the washing machine, kettle, rice cooker and someone showering at the same time.


Cheers


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Sydneguy
post Oct 10 2013, 09:48 PM

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QUOTE(stevie8 @ Oct 10 2013, 09:25 PM)
Can't understand the table. mine showing me which are for 10A, 20A and 32A from the table?
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Look at the Column called "NEC copper wire ampacity with 60/75/90 °C insulation (A)[7]"

NEC in USA means National Electrical Code which is the rules for wiring etc.

This Column has 3 numbers which correspond respectively to whether the wire has 60 or 75 or 90 Deg C insulation.

In that column find the maximum Amps you need to carry, and then look across to the the Wire Diameter in mm2.

BTW unless you are sure best to always assume your wire is the lowest rated insulation ie 60degC

eg Lets say you want to caryy 32A, there is no 32 A for 60degC, only 30 or 40 A, so select 40A then look across and you will see you need 8.37mm2 wire.

Now 8.37mm2 wire sounds a little bit big to me for 32 A, which I seem to recall (assuming my memory is working correctly) 32A usually needs about 4mm2. Now from the table you can see that 4.17mm2 wire can carry something between 30 and 40 A if it is 90deg C insulated (but like i said always better to oversize wires and be safe than sorry).

BTW I'm an Aerospace, Mechanical and Industrial Engineer, NOT an Electrical Engineer so take the about as friendly advice only. Best to consult an Electrical Engineer or licensed Electrician.

Cheers
Sydneguy
post Oct 11 2013, 12:49 AM

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rclxms.gif rclxms.gif rclxms.gif rclxms.gif 1 Lowyat forumer problem solved, 23,494,985 to go tongue.gif
Sydneguy
post Oct 11 2013, 01:45 PM

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QUOTE(stevie8 @ Oct 11 2013, 12:35 PM)
One more question comes to mind. Look like never ending...

If I get to locate the bunch of wires run up to the first floor and cut them and fix a new DB at the 1st floor, I then need to run a thick cable from the new DB to the main DB at the ground floor right?

Question:

Instead of pulling a new thick cable (live, neutral and earth), can I twist a few or all of the existing "cut" cables (become a big thick cable) that I cut (for making the new DB) which connect down to the ground floor DB, same twist them together? See drawing below:

[attachmentid=3670289]
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You could but its not really the right way to do it for a few reasons.

1) after cutting the old wires probably be to short by a few inches to go from Main DB to sub-Db. remember you want to cut the upstairs wires from sockets a bit longer so its easy to connect into Sub-DB and you are not trying to stretch wires.

2) joined parallel wires don't really have the same capacity in practice as they do in theory. Also its easy for 1 or 2 wires of a twisted set to come loose from the crew point, then youve got loose wires and reduced capacity and remaining wires are now free to come loose also.

3) It will be very hard to join those several wires into the DB and sub Db.

4) its just plain messy.

5) AFAIK its probably against the wiring rules/codes.

6) the 2-3 mtrs of big wire from sub to main will only cost less than RM50, so its not a bifg cost

the only real reason to do what you suggested is to save $ and time inconvenience on hacking and plaster back, but this is easly out voted by reasons 1-5 above.


Cheers
Sydneguy
post Oct 11 2013, 04:41 PM

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QUOTE(stevie8 @ Oct 11 2013, 02:53 PM)
Thanks for the input. You got me, "the only real reason to do what you suggested is to save $ and time inconvenience on hacking and plaster back"

Anyway, hacking is unavoidable for the installation of sub DB where I need to hack out the cable long enough to get all of them one by one into the MCBs in the sub DB. The problem is to hack thru the slab and beam. I do not want another hole thru the beam which is at the middle of the house, it only weaken the beam.

I just need to find two 4mm wires each and twist them together which will support 60A, right? Below is the potential load up-stair:

1 x 2 1/2 hp aircond
2 x 1 hp aircond
1 x iron
5 x fans (not on when use aircond)
30 x downlight, wall light and table lamp.
1 x vacuum cleaner (not use when ironing), my wife cannot be doing 2 things at a time
Many power sockets but seldom use other than mentioned above for ironing, vacuuming, also for charging handphone, hair dryer, no water heater (I use solar heater), TV, Audio, PS2 games.

Therefore, one 4mm for 32A could be enough, but 2 x 4mm definitely more than enough. Then need to connect 2 x 4mm wire to one 8mm wire to the sub-DB.

What do you think if I use lead soldering to join the 2 4mm wire together instead of twisting them together for terminating at the sub-DB and the down stair DB? How good is the lead joint conducting electricity compare to bear copper wire?

Cheers
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Once you pull all the old wires that went upstairs out there will be a big hole in the floor/beam for you to put the new thick wire through , Problem Solved. thumbup.gif

 

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