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 Home Electrical MCB, How to size Miniature Circuit Breaker

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Richard
post May 9 2016, 05:43 PM

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QUOTE(stevie8 @ Oct 9 2013, 02:02 PM)
Anyone knows how to size MCB of our home?

Got B,C,D type and different Amperage. How and what to choose?

[attachmentid=3667236] [attachmentid=3667238]
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B, C, D types are for the inrush current.. Domestic uses type B

Ampere rating are for current overload protection of the cable. Size the amps according to the cabl's current carrying capacity..

Scroll to the btm of the page, the link at the btm.. Read it.
Suruhanjaya Tenaga - Guidelines for Electrical Wiring in Residential Building 2008
Richard
post May 9 2016, 05:55 PM

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QUOTE(firdaruddin @ May 9 2016, 01:57 PM)
Hello. I have a situation where a fuse keep kicking back. The pic of the db is attached.  The one that always kicking back is the 20A one.  So the question is, can I change the fuse directly or i should change the wire first to 4mm?
Current wire size is 1.5mm. I think.
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Is this a new installation and is it a new mcb?
If yes then its probably this circuit is overloaded causing a thermal trip.. Get a clamp ammeter and cheack the load and compare it to the mcb's rating.. If overloaded then remove part of the load to another circuit (If it's more that one load on the circuit)

If no (meaning it was working well previously) then listen carefully to this particular mcb.. If you hear small crackling sounds before tripping then replace the mcb. The mcb has pitted contacts, that means the contact area has reduced to the point where it itself causes the thermal overload.. The device is faulty..

You only replace wiring if the insulation is damaged and you test with an insulation tester (Meggar).. Hire an electrician for this.. He has the equipment and competency to use it.. You cannot use a multimeter..
Richard
post May 9 2016, 06:07 PM

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QUOTE(Xccess @ Oct 10 2013, 08:23 PM)
Here you go.
user posted image
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This picture shows a Three phase Distribution board (DB)..

It's protection device ia a 4 pole Residual Current device (the one with the yellow trip button)

QUOTE(stevie8 @ Oct 10 2013, 08:47 PM)
By the way your RCCB is 0.3A (300mA). Mine is 0.1A more sensitive.
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The RCD is for 3 phases that's 100mA trip per phase..

Whether yours (0.1A) more sensitive depends if you have 3 Phase supply ..

meaning is your RCCB 2P or 4P?

If 2P then i think it is not more sensitive..
Richard
post May 10 2016, 03:16 AM

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QUOTE(firdaruddin @ May 9 2016, 10:33 PM)
Hi. It was an old thing.  It happened whether i switch on my computer or nothing while I'm not switch anything at all. It kicked back like ikut suka dia.
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Firstly, use the correct terms for the components, it helps avoid confusion..

A fuse cannot kick back.. It is a fusible link.. It blows (meaning gets hot, melts thus disconnect) when over rated current flows through..
A miniature circuit breaker (mcb) trips (meaning there's a bimetal contact which trips a spring) when over rated current flows ..
You replace a fuse.. You reset an mcb (only replace if faulty)..


QUOTE(firdaruddin @ May 9 2016, 10:33 PM)
So my plan maybe upgrading the 20A fuse by changing it to 32A fuse. Is it possible the problem will still occur after changing the fuse directly?
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Yes, it is possible.. This is a forum and I'm just giving my opinion. You need an actual competent person to repair it.. (An electrician)

However the fuse or mcb function is to protect the wire.. It blows/trips before the wire gets hot.. A 1.5mm wire is rated at 23Amps..

QUOTE(firdaruddin @ May 9 2016, 10:33 PM)
Current wire size is 1.5mm. I think.
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A 32A fuse/mcb cannot protect a 1.5mm wire.. The wire will melt and burn anything combustible close to it..
It might burn down your house.. Pls understand your risk..

Hire an electrician if you don't know what I'm talking about.. It will save you more..

QUOTE(firdaruddin @ May 9 2016, 10:33 PM)
Also that fuse goes to one 3-pin point and then loop for two more 3 pin point outside the room for washing machine use.
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ok..

Standard domestic wiring regulation requires you use 2.5mm2 or higher size wire for sockets..

When new the metal within the wire is pure .. An older wire oxidizes and its insulation degrades.. It cannot carry rated current and heats up when over current..

Regulation states you must completely rewire after 30 years.. I rewired my house after 20 years.. It's my insurance..

Good luck..

This post has been edited by Richard: May 10 2016, 03:42 AM
Richard
post May 10 2016, 10:05 PM

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QUOTE(firdaruddin @ May 10 2016, 02:12 PM)
Another question. Is there any way for me to determine which wire go to that particular point etc.? I mean if i want to change the whole box with the fuse everything.
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Yes.. Switch off all your miniature circuit breakers (mcb)..

Standard wiring mcb's all type B's except motor (if nuisance tripping then use type C or D for higher inrush(start) current)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6A & 10A are lighting mcb's
16A & 20A are socket/aircon/water heater mcb's
32A are cooker/large freezer/3HP & above motor mcb's

- Switch on only one mcb
- Visually check which one has power and record on the mcb
- Switch off
- Repeat next mcb..

QUOTE(firdaruddin @ May 10 2016, 02:12 PM)
So that i can reconnect the wire to the box correctly. 1 seperate fuse for a/c etc.
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Seriously..? I myself am certified with ST but i get an electrician to do the work.. For me it's a matter of cost and speed.. I can talk the talk but crawl the walk if you get what I mean..

For you I think it will be an additional safety issue.. Wiring a whole house with 20-40 points is not an amateur DIY..
One point is ok.. Not whole house.. you're crazy to think you can do it..

Richard
post May 8 2017, 09:51 PM

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QUOTE(beLIEve @ May 8 2017, 03:53 PM)
That's why he confidently gave 1 month warranty. I always consult my friend before agreeing to all the deals offered by contractors. When problem occurs, can make money pulling new wires again.

Referring to RCCB, yes, after so much research, that's what I learned. Also read that some will trip at 50% of the value. Didn't drill too much into that.

Let me ask you this, since you're a 高人. Which is better? 10mA RCCB between MCB and water heater, or MCB between RCCB and water heater? My friend recommended the latter, but I went for the former after some research. It's sort of whether I want the MCB to protect RCCB from potential overcurrent damages, or RCCB to protect MCB from leakages. I'm protecting the RCCB because it's much more expensive. He said RCCB will not break, though I wonder what will happen when 100A flows through a 25A RCCB.
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You use a water heater for hot water..

You use a 10mA RCD to protect your life from electrocution from the water heater..

Why would you value a 10mA RCD higher than life?

Edit * Watch this youtube video.. It is good .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5HuPol99sU

I also find it pretty funny ..

This post has been edited by Richard: May 8 2017, 09:58 PM
Richard
post May 10 2017, 12:32 AM

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QUOTE(beLIEve @ May 8 2017, 11:18 PM)
Bro, did you misunderstand my posts? Or you see something wrong with my setup having MCB before RCCB?

Thanks for your responses.
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I might have actually ... when you typed " I'm protecting the RCCB because it's much more expensive." ..

My mistake..

Your setup is a standard arrangement i.e. The RCCB (or RCD) doing the protection of life, while the MCB protection for the property (cable, RCD & load)..

It's good..


Richard
post May 10 2017, 07:52 PM

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QUOTE(beLIEve @ May 10 2017, 03:06 PM)
Back to the original topic.

Anyone here use MCB Type B at home? Seems like everyone is using Type C, but of course, most were probably installed by developers. Forgotten to find out if Pasar Road is selling Type B. The last time I bought, I didn't know the existence of Types B C D, they just gave me a Type C.
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I only experience seeing type C in the market..

Physically the difference is nominal (I.e. in name only), as it deals with the breaking capacity of the breaker.. thus the physical characteristics of the spring.. you would need a department like SIRIM to be able to tell the difference..

You and me, we take and accept what is available..

Richard
post May 11 2017, 12:59 PM

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QUOTE(beLIEve @ May 11 2017, 02:26 AM)
hmmmm that's where my concern is. Or probably it's unwarranted.

Type C will only trip at 5x its rated current. If my understanding is correct, there'll be no trips below 5x. On a 20A Type C MCB, it means that 99.9999A can flow through the cable without it tripping. If it heats up the cables long enough, fire or short circuit.

Of course, knowledgeable people know not to overload any particular circuit, but we can't stop anyone from doing so.

This was the reason why my friend said there's no point protecting the RCCB with an MCB. I guess there's no harm trying though smile.gif
I don't think I've much choice. Seems like it's our norm in this country to compromise safety for convenience. When I goto shops for 10mA-30mA RCCB, they'll always tell me "don't buy this, always trip". I guess the same applies to MCB, so no Type B for the wicked.
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Correction..

On a 20A Type C MCB, Once there is an overload current meaning more than 20A the breaker will trip .. There's a coil within which pulls in a metal piece (an electromagnet) which trips out the breaker..

Type B, C and D only refers to the inrush current .. produced by inductive lighting and motors.. The 5x is a transient (momentary or short time only) current during the start to enable starting torque(of a motor) or to jump a spark (of lights)..

Once the motor is running or the lamp is lit, the current goes back to rated normal..

A continuous flow of overload current (beyond 20A) will heat up a secondary part of the breaker (a bimetal strip)..

Your friend is misinformed .. A MCB protects against an overload (both magnetic and thermal type), a RCD protects against leakage current (below the rated) but will kill a person..

You need both devices in your DB, one to protect property, the other to protect life.. It is a mandatory (MUST HAVE) requirement..

For the secondary RCD at the water heater I believe it is only recommended not yet enforced by our Suruhanjaya Tenaga..

If you read the news then you know that people have died due to faulty electric water heaters .. 50mA AC Voltage over 5 secs will kill a fully grown 60kG human male..

You can google, read it up or ask any medically trained person.. The symptom is similar to a heart attack with burns at the contact areas..

Edit*

If the device keeps tripping then there is a leakage current, dirty equipment in a high humidity environment is the usual cause...

The dust settles on the live or Neutral wire and when wet will leak to a conductive cover tripping out the RCD..

You need to clean the electrical devices.. Wet dust can conduct electricity..

Edit**

Correction For the secondary 10mA trip RCD at the water heater.. It is a mandatory requirement by Suruhanjaya Tenaga..

This post has been edited by Richard: May 20 2017, 08:43 AM
Richard
post Jul 2 2018, 12:08 PM

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QUOTE(slimey @ Jul 1 2018, 09:40 PM)
technically yes.
also need to take into effect the distance of wires of course.
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No. An Aircon compressor motor starts/stops multiple times acting on thermostat sensor

The starting amps will be 6x or higher and will burn out the mcb or connectors contacts. There will be arc damages initially slowly continuosly damaging the contacts and burn.

Any 4 Ampere Aircon compressor motor must have a dedicated circuit protected by a 20A mcb.

Only a single 1hp Aircon to one circuit. No more.

 

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