Hm. I thought the turbo is supposed to kick in at low revs to make it torquey to drive and improve FC? Only at high revs should the FC be high, right? Been a while that I've driven a TSI. Can't remember.
Proton Suprima S
Proton Suprima S
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Aug 25 2013, 04:51 PM
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#21
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Hm. I thought the turbo is supposed to kick in at low revs to make it torquey to drive and improve FC? Only at high revs should the FC be high, right? Been a while that I've driven a TSI. Can't remember.
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Aug 25 2013, 07:11 PM
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#22
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QUOTE(VagueConcerns @ Aug 25 2013, 06:03 PM) The chassis feels like it can handle a bit more doesn't it? Hm. Whenever I touched the pedal in the Touran the FC jumped to 10l minimum... Rarely does a turbo engine aimed for fuel efficiency are actually fuel efficient. On paper it'll work flawlessly, there's no reason for it not to. However, taking the driver into account, how well the engine stays at the right power band, what is the right power band, how and when the turbo kicks in, there's a lot to be engineered. The transmission takes the brunt of the blame when it comes to FC in my opinion. I've never heard of NFE, that's new to me. That's how it's supposed to work, but it works by adding more air and thus more fuel to increase torque/power. They work good in theory, but in the real world not many manufacturers get it right, and even Ford's EcoBoost get marginally better FC figures, but that is when driven by hyper-milers. VW has got it right with the TSi. It's a turbo 1.4 with the power of a CFE 1.6! However.....it has a DSG gearbox and weighs slightly less. The engine,turbo, and gearbox were mated so harmoniously to get that figure. However it is very nice to have lots of punch around 2000 rpm, makes driving more relaxed. Also, shouldn't CVT be the perfect gearbox? Have an economy mode, where it will maximize the fuel saving unless you kickdown. Stay in exactly the right range and all... after all that's the point of CVT... |
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Aug 26 2013, 11:44 AM
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#23
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QUOTE(siegwarhiet @ Aug 26 2013, 09:51 AM) Last night I was trying with VW Passat. The heck! That guy was so fast. Once arrive home I eagerly surf about Passat. 2.0 turbocharged Diesel with 350Nm torque! No wonder can't even follow. Lol.. Where got 2.0 TDI in Malaysia? Should be 1.8T, right? Old ones had a 2 liter turbo, but petrol.Not to say they are slow, just... I'd be surprised if it was a diesel. |
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Aug 26 2013, 01:04 PM
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#24
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QUOTE(dares @ Aug 26 2013, 12:50 PM) I kena from those supercars few times dy. You have to look into the rear view mirror all the time. The first time I look in the rear view mirror they were so far away I can hardly judge their speed....can't even recognize the car. So I pasang signal move to the fast lane, look in the mirror again....dafuq it is right behind you flashing already |
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Aug 26 2013, 01:25 PM
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#25
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QUOTE(kevintth @ Aug 26 2013, 01:10 PM) if it is real... i sense they are going back like Wira generation.... use the same face for few models lolx... Wira, Putra, Satria, Arena... Not real. Unofficial mockup only. And I don't see Proton doing that, they have more important models to work on.I see... i thought the radio got some kind of sensor like found on Galaxy phone where u look at the screen it will play if not stop playing haha |
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Aug 26 2013, 03:58 PM
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#26
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Maybe they should simply go for a partnership with Renault again. After all even Mercedes is using (going to use) their small engines. But this time properly equip and train all Proton mechanics.
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Aug 27 2013, 03:22 PM
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#27
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QUOTE(kenso77 @ Aug 27 2013, 09:17 AM) I would certainly do so, if:- Wasn't a quant tiny?1) they listen and appreciate the feedback given 2) I know who to talk to (besides, who's to say Proton isn't scouring this site to pick up notes for future products) 3) they've exhausted their stocks and is planning for a future model (it is not at all surprising that the development cost of the Suprima is to the tune of almost RM200mil when one takes into account the lead time, planning and development, inventory management, etc which probably started the same time as the Preve was being planned for launch) As much as there are support and criticism on DRB taking over Proton, I am hopeful that under new management, Proton will experience quantum growth in all aspects of its operations. It's still early to say how things will go and I am particularly looking forward to the Suprima manual model as it would be the first CFE/Campro turbo to be paired to a manual gearbox sold here. It is still questionable how a manual model would be received here but it would be a differentiating point, I feel when compared to the Focus and Golf which only comes in auto. Ultimately, I hope DRB would be able to untangle the humdrum of bureaucracy in Proton and make drastic changes to future product developments. I strongly believe we have a lot of talent; all that is required is for us to identify, groom and reward these individuals who'll become the Master chefs of our national car maker in the future. None of the cars you mentioned are hot hatches, so the only reason to exclude the Octavia is that it is a lot older than the other cars... I would have liked to see how the Octavia does against the Suprima. Keep in mind that all these cars cost much more than the Suprima. Give 120k to Proton and see what a C segment hatchback they can build then. |
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Aug 27 2013, 06:41 PM
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#28
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QUOTE(kenso77 @ Aug 27 2013, 05:17 PM) If you do not consider the Focus, Golf and Pug 308 as hot hatches, where does that put the Suprima? Focus ST warm hatch, RS hot. Golf GTI warm, R hot. Megane RS hot. Octavia vRS warm. If it has less than 200 hp in the C segment it isn't even warm. B segment 200 is hot. There are lots of 75 or 90 hp Golf and Focus sold... How are they supposed to be hot? Incidentally, if you want to know, I find the Octavia (the Mk III that I have, that is) the most uncle car among them all. It doesn't corner as well as a Focus, it doesn't accelerate like a 308 or Golf. It has the looks that's not easily accepted by today's crowd. But it does have the stability and sense of solidness I was talking about earlier. I may not outsprint a Golf from 0-100kph but I'd gun it down from 180kph onwards where the Golf will start to inch slightly faster to its top speed of 215kph while the needle on mine would stop at 208kph. It'll eat any Camry/Accord/Teana hooligans that's often flashing others off the road while travelling on the North South Expressway and still return 12-13 cents per km (based on today's RON95 petrol price) if I maintain cruising speed of 110kph. It has the characteristic of a VW in the rain where it'll travel straight even on wet roads. I've seen my fair share of Protons suddenly deciding to take a dive during heavy rain when trying to match speeds with a conti. Yes, the Lotus handling has indeed benefited Proton but I reserve comment on how it handles in the rain as I have not had the liberty of doing so. It will probably do well in a moose test. I've been actively recommending friends and family members to buy the Preve for its excellent value-for-money proposition. I am so very looking forward to seeing a RM120k C segment Proton. Either they're blardy insane or they've improved to the point where their quality and standards is widely accepted and everyone can say it's worth the price. Either outcome would please many Malaysians, no? The Suprima is a hatchback. I thought you have a 2nd gen Octavia? |
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Aug 27 2013, 06:49 PM
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#29
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QUOTE(AmenoJaku @ Aug 27 2013, 06:32 PM) Thanks for the lengthy review, Kenso. I think what @kadajawi meant by hot hatches are those sporty versions of respective hatchbacks ala Golf GTI & Focus ST. Thus he considers non-ST Focus & Golf TSI (and Suprima S) as just hatchbacks.... cold hatches? Btw, i thought the Octavia is a hatchback with a pseudo-sedan-look. The Leon is not really a competitor to the Octavia, is it? The Toledo should be the new biggest Seat, and that is a rebadged Skoda Rapid, which sits below the Octavia. The Leon is a hatchback like the Golf... Though the Octavia is Golf based too. I thought it was rather ridiculous that Seat replaced the Exeo with the Toledo. The Exeo really was the deal of the century. Rebadged Audi A4 for a much lower price. Like Inspira. But using exactly the same factory... Just in a different location.The Focus, and to a lesser extent, the Golf, regardless of sporty version or not, have always been benchmarked againts. They're top dogs so it's not so much of a surprise if Suprima doesn't manage to match them, given Proton's low production cost. What i'm more keen to know is whether Proton can "at least beat or equal" the other supposedly 'inferior' continentals... hence why i brought up the Peugeot and Skoda. Had the VW/Proton deal went through, Proton could've potentially become the Asian Skoda/Seat... just maybe. We could be getting a Proton Octavia/Leon/(insert Msian name) instead. Skoda succeeds in Europe bcoz people see it as a cheaper VW. Proton could've sell their cars as cheaper VWs too. But that didn't happen of course. Thus, we get the Preve/Suprima, a product after proton given the middle finger to VW. But is it good enough? Better than Proton Octavia/Leon? |
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Aug 27 2013, 07:50 PM
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#30
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QUOTE(AmenoJaku @ Aug 27 2013, 07:08 PM) Proton is still rebadging cars. Inspira. Accord. But you're right i guess. We can only speculate what deal was actually like. But Skoda is doing well, no? Imagine Proton doing it in Asia like how Skoda does it in Europe. Their factories are still in Czech. The locals still get to keep their job. Even if Proton gets less share per unit being sold, Asia is a very very big market. They'll still get lotsa profit by sheer volume sold. I think a VW car with Proton badge needs less convincing to buyers than a self-made car. I would definitely buy a rm100k Proton Jetta/Octavia. But people are avoiding the Inspira even though they know it is a Mitsubishi... As long as the Proton badge is on it they don't buy it, even if it is a Merc or Toyota...![]() Developing cars has become crazily expensive. RM 200 million is a surprisingly low amount IMHO. Most brands can't survive alone, they have to distribute the development costs on a very high number of cars. And Proton is a tiny player only selling in a small market, and at ridiculously low prices. How are they supposed to compete? I don't think Proton can afford to develop engines for example. They can't create something competitive. That would be too expensive. This post has been edited by kadajawi: Aug 27 2013, 07:53 PM |
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Aug 29 2013, 07:04 PM
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#31
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QUOTE(siegwarhiet @ Aug 29 2013, 06:48 PM) I do believe the 200 candela limitation is meant for safety feature not fuel consumption. Even if it does, to me an Alternator just produce the same output no matter how much Watt you use. The transformer will do its' job to suit the demand. Lol, I guess? Yeah. I think cause of safety reasons, though I don't understand it. The point is to be visible and attention grabbing even under bright sunlight. At night the DRL are deactivated or dimmed down anyway... |
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Aug 29 2013, 09:27 PM
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#32
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Nothing idiotic about DRL. Motorbikes are required to have their headlights on during daytime, to improve visibility. Why shouldn't it help cars too? What about a grey car on a grey road? Sometimes it can be a bit hard to see. A bright white light will draw attention and alert you. IMHO it works, I notice cars with DRL (provided they are bright enough) earlier.
DRLs become idiotic and dangerous when the owner/installer doesn't understand English and thinks DRL are meant for night time usage... |
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Aug 30 2013, 11:04 AM
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#33
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QUOTE(VagueConcerns @ Aug 30 2013, 02:19 AM) Any extra load on the alternator is extra turning, meaning extra fuel. Especially now with all the extra speakers and more powerful ICE, drive-by-wire, touch screen navigation, in car Wi-fi. If the car gets electric power steering it gets even worse. DRLs don't need to be bright if they are to be there. They just need to be bright enough for you to notice a few cars are in front or behind you, but not too bright that a convoy would just be a major distraction. We're not trying to watch a parade of floats. DRL consume like 10W? Turning on the headlights is more like 200-300W. And that causes a minimal change in FC. So the amount consumed by DRL is completely insignificant. Having DRLs just created a solution for a problem that wasn't really big at all in the first place. In motorcycles certainly, since they are a lot smaller and dark colours are popular for motorcycles. There is value to it, and DRL (on cars) has its place but not in broad daylight. They should rather be called, "Visibility Enhancer Lights". They really should only be used in low light conditions like haze, fog, heavy rain, dimly lit indoor parking. The higher cause of accidents are inattentiveness and lack of road discipline and ethics. I'd hate to see the day when people are found guilty on the basis that their DRL was not on, and a bright red colour outside, on a sunny day at noon "wasn't enough to see the vehicle". Grey coloured cars are less visible, but that's not a license for them to pollute daytime with over-bright artificial lighting either. For Preve owners, please leave the DRL's brightness alone. They are really already quite visible. Cars have electric power steering to SAVE fuel. Hydraulic feels better, but consumes more fuel. I lived in a country where DRL were made mandatory, and it helped. I also noticed I get noticed earlier since I have DRL in Malaysia. Especially when overtaking. Regardless of weather conditions. |
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Aug 30 2013, 11:08 AM
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#34
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DRL were made mandatory in many countries. Why is that so if it is such a safety risk according to you? It helps, full stop. There is no such think as artificial light pollution. A DRL can't be bright enough to outshine the sun.
And the increase in FC is extremely small. Aircon draws like 1000W, and consumes maybe 0.5 liter or so more? Something like that. Now imagine the increase in FC with something that consumes 10W. Even if it is 20W. Also good DRLs aren't expensive yet increase safety. Your features like auto stop are great, but much more costly. And you could argue people rely on the car doing the job for you. On the other hand DRL only raise awareness. This post has been edited by kadajawi: Aug 30 2013, 11:12 AM |
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Aug 30 2013, 07:23 PM
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#35
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QUOTE(dtna7 @ Aug 30 2013, 06:51 PM) the new Suprima S still uses the same "keyless" start stop button. Where you have to slot in your key before you press the START button. Security. A car that has keyless go without requiring you to insert the key is easy to steal with 2 modified walkie talkies. At least this way you can only get inside the car and remove everything of value, you can't just drive away. |
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Aug 31 2013, 11:12 AM
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#36
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QUOTE(VagueConcerns @ Aug 31 2013, 05:47 AM) An environmentalist in Malaysia... that's rare (and good). But there are many other ways you can reduce fuel consumption and CO2, like by making cars into milo tins. I really don't think FC is any reason why they capped the brightness. They just don't want it too bright. The governments simply make owning a high CO2 high FC car unattractive through taxes, and let the market do the rest.The Myvi Extreme is good value? I don't think so. It is one of the least safe cars in Malaysia, and you pay a lot for stuff like a bodykit which does nothing to improve the car. I'd consider the Fiesta LX sedan, the Suprima S high spec, the Preve CFE, the Kia Rio good value. And of course Saga SV. This post has been edited by kadajawi: Aug 31 2013, 11:16 AM |
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Aug 31 2013, 01:29 PM
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#37
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QUOTE(dtna7 @ Aug 31 2013, 01:11 PM) back in those days when BMW was using the same thing it was an issue. But now? Well, it's a useless gimmick of course. The thing is: Unless some serious stuff is being done to secure the key fob (which may require much more power and thus be a bit problematic in a car remote) these systems are not secure enough. Thus the added step of having to insert the key. Of course then it becomes more of a nuissance instead of added comfort, at which point what is the point?It's a pointless push start system that isn't keyless. Basically instead of turning the key all the way to start the car, you turn it 3 quarters and add an extra step to press a button. And they call this push start system? Obsolete tech at this day of age. With a normal car key you have to press a button to send the opening signal. Since these newer ones don't require you to push it, they will always open the car... as long as you can get the signal to the car that is. IIRC usually the car sends out a constant I'm here signal, when the car key receives the signal it will send out a key is here signal, and the car will open. Unless the car measures the time between sending and receiving the signal to estimate the distance it is relatively trivial to just pick up both signals and transmit them to the other side. That's the part that gets you into the car. If that is all that is needed to also start the car, it becomes even more dangerous. I could imagine some NFC system, perhaps with wireless charging, so you have to put the key on a certain place. But then you need to find the key, at which point... well, inserting it into the car isn't too much to ask, is it? To improve it I'd rather have a key that is easy to insert... like if it is pyramid shaped. |
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Sep 5 2013, 12:34 PM
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#38
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QUOTE(dstl1128 @ Sep 5 2013, 09:58 AM) Yesterday saw a white suprima S tailgating a 660 Kancil on the highway. To my surprise suprima S unable overtake that Kancil.... Cause Kancil blocking the way? No space to overtake? Suprima driver refusing to overtake on the left? I also don't want to overtake on the left, so I tailgate and flash drivers blocking the right lane.Come on, reviewing/comparing car is not kids story writing. Also sure it is a stock Kancil? There is a rather stock looking 80s B segment Opel that was supposed to do 360 or 370 or so... Road legal turbocharged twin engined 4x4 drag racer in the body of a cheap Kelisa sized car. This post has been edited by kadajawi: Sep 5 2013, 12:34 PM |
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