Here's a dispute i had with this photo studio and i have questions for professionals here.

So my family paid this photo studio a package price to take a simple photoshoot of 3 photos.
After the photoshoot, i requested to get the softcopy of the photos and the studio charge me RM100 for 20 softcopy of photos of my choice.

Back at home, i switch on my computer and found the photos given to me was all resized to a pitiful 643x427.
I thought it was a mistake and called them. The studio insists it was the RIGHT size.

I went on rage.

They insist they promised me softcopy that allows printing up to 5R and this resolution is enough to do so. I said 5R @ 300 dpi requires resolution at 2000 pixel range. not this tiny resolution which couldn't even fit my cheapest netbook screen.
I requested for full resolution photo and they say they CANNOT give it to me as it's their copyright. I paid them money to shoot me and they have the copyright which render me couldn't even allowed to get my own full size photo?
They then insist this is the practice of ALL studio, seriously?

They should have told me all this beforehand. I'm fine if they want to scale the photo down from full size RAW. But at lower resolution than VGA? REALLY?
They then insist this is what normal customer WANTED.

wtf is with this world?

so,
1) I pay but they own the copyright that i'm not even legally allowed to buy my own photo if they refused?
2) 643 x 427 for 5R is good enough?
3) This is the practice of all studio?

This post has been edited by fx_53_xt: Jul 29 2013, 08:04 PM

hard to say anything. you need to check their T&C in detail.

unless stated, one can't assume one has the copyright despite payment made, unless it is stated clearly.

if nothing is stated, copyright is still theirs. you just paid for their service.

any other thing to add? 5R print at 300 dpi is 1500 × 2100 px. even they give 150 dpi (750x1050) would still be alright. the resolution they gave you is actually 5R by their standard, around 80 dpi. Usable but not optimal.

Sorry, not pro. I'm a photo printer rather than a photo studio / photographer. But none other than Goldfries seems to have replied. I'll have a go.



I would be angry too. Because if I paid an extra RM100 for the softcopy, I'll expect a full sized copy. Not a lousy tiny 643x427 only good to print 4R. As Goldfries pointed out, even at 5R, it would be a bit "soft".

The problem here is they took an additional RM100, and did not tell you that the copy you would get is a very low resolution. When people pay extra for the softcopy, they expect the full resolution, to print as large as possible. They do not expect a scaled down copy.

Many studios do not give out the softcopy at all. In the past years, before the digital camera era, and everybody shot on film, the studios did not give out the negatives. This is because they want you to come back to them to get all your prints made there.

1. Yes they own the copyright. Unless it's agreed before hand. Or you hired the studio and photographer for a period of time, then it might (sometimes, depending on more details) be considered "worked for hire" and the hirer (you) own the copyright. However, though they own the copyright, they cannot use the photo without the permission of the people who appear in it. Unless they also remove all identification (eg blur out the faces).

But the fact that they own the copyright does not stop them from giving you copies of the photo. Or allowing you to do anything you want with it. Or even transferring the copyright to you. What is stopping them is simply they refuse to do it, not because copyright law prevents them from giving you a copy of the photo.

2. Just barely. Usually no. If I as a customer, were to walk into his studio, and asked him to make 5R prints from that, he will probably say it's only good enough for 4R.

Nevertheless, if you were to walk into any photo shop, they will usually just print it without checking, and you'll get a somewhat "unsharp" photo.

3. The majority of studios do not give out softcopies. The majority of photo shops do give out softcopies as part of the package. What's the difference between a studio and a photo shop? A studio exists to take photos. They have a proper room, with backdrop, lighting, props, sometimes various clothes for rent.

A photo shop sells cameras, frames, albums, and prints photos. Sometimes they have a small "studio" out back. They "studio" is typically not as well equipted. Many uses what are called "digital backgrounds". You stand in front of a plain wall, and later an artist will swap out the wall and replace it with a background of your choosing.

Price wise, studios charge more. Quality wise, studio photos are better (usually).

Last time my family went to a studio, we asked first before hand, whether we can get a copy of the pictures. The answer was yes. Then we asked if it's the full resolution. Yes again. Only after that did we commit. BTW they didn't charge extra, but I get the feeling if we didn't ask beforehand, they wouldn't have given it to us. They probably said yes because they wanted to make the sale.

This post has been edited by paul23: Jul 30 2013, 11:27 AM

Let me get something straight.

1. Photographer/service provider has the 'ownership' of the photo taken. He can resell those picture to any 3rd party and make money, provided they have a photo/model release form signed.
2. They (service provider) are selling copyright, meaning you, as client, paid for the copyright, to make copies and use at your own discreet.
3. You (client/model) do not have the 'ownership' to sell its copyright, hence u cannot send those photo to join contest or sell it for other publishing company as you don't own the ownership.

so you actually have the full right to make high res copies of those image.

U can threaten them you will log a consumer right dispute and post thier shifty service on fb(power of social network is not to taken lightly).

Sorry about your encouter

Put on facebook la, i will help "like"

wow. rm100 for 643x427 photos. i would be enraged as well.

i never know the photo studio would have copyright on the photo. thanks for sharing.

lesson learnt here is to ask first :S

No. The studio is selling "a copy" of the photo to the customer. The studio retains copyright. The client does not have the right to make copies of those photos.

Later, he paid RM100 for a softcopy. There probably is an inplicit permission for him to copy that to his computer, send copies to friends and families, put it up on his webpage/blog/fb/etc, make prints (up to 5R size, the shop mentions this).



Yes.



No. The shop sold a low res soft copy. No high res copy given to him.



Start here. What is the name of the studio? Where is it?

1. It is always the case that the studio own the copyright to your photos and can even publish them for their own marketing use.
Most studios however will always pass you a softcopy when requested/paid.
Said softcopy is usually resized, but not till that small la usually.
They will never ever pass you RAW files though. If they did, expect prices to be exorbitantly ridiculous.

2. Personally, no. It may be enough years ago if printed with a crappy printer, but I think our standards and expectation to prints has improved.

3. Not all. But I wouldn't say that this is an outlier or an isolated case.

So are they a con ?
Giving ultra low res photo sucks and out of good will they should mention this to you.
Then again it's only Rm 5 per photo. It's not like they charged you RM 100 per photo.
I say ask them again for a higher res photo. Doesn't have to be the full size, a properly resized 2100*1500 image would be good enough.

well the issue here is you are buying a service. And they did just what you ask for. You wan 3 photos you get 3 photos. You wanted soft copy and you get soft copy.

Just be more specific in asking next time. You should have asked for full resolution of soft copy, or ask them what resolution they giving you

Clearly there are different expectations.

To the shop, that size is ENOUGH which IMO is enough. Enough to see the photo. They've been using it without user complaints perhaps.

To the person who engaged the shop, because the person wants super duper high fine-art DPI whatever.

Reality - if you're printing your own 5R at home, make sure you have a good set of printer and paper. If not, your 300 DPI will look no different from 80 DPI print as the ink head and paper quality result in smudged look.

Anyway this case serves as a lesson. Find out EXACTLY what you're getting and what other options available (After sales) before engaging a service.



that translates to RM 5 per photo, and you want full resolution?

You'll be surprised how many established photography studios will not even give you full res, let alone one priced at RM 5 per copy.

They'll insist that you print, or give you one that's just sufficient for web usage. Conditions vary but a lot of photography studios do this to protect their reputation, especially photos involving people.

Family photo, wedding photo, you name it. Their rationale is that they should not give you full reso because it hurts their reputation if you engaged a lousy printer or DIY print that the photo turned out so ugly that it loses their details and color tones.

I knew about this from stories.my talk at Behind the Lens early this year and I find it really interesting. A very good move to protect the photographer's reputation and also another way to earn more $$ especially when the clients wanna print really big

hmm but then again, if they give small resolution photo... i go print using a lousy printer... photo turned out like crap... wouldn't this damage their reputation as well?

i would think a general consumer in 2013 would know there would be a quality difference between printing at studio and printing at home.

honestly i think it's so unreasonable to the client for not getting the high resolution of the images. if it's product or commercial work. maybe there's a reason to not giving them the high resolution. but that's family photo. which we already know where it's going. i don't practice this in my studio. to me it does sounds very unfair to the client. and i don't want to ruin my reputation by doing that.

That is why some people ask friends and relatives to take photo during big occasion like marriage so that they can keep a copy of memories with them.

I find most of the photos in photo studio get deleted after few years so if the client lose the photos, then it is lost for good especially those photos that hold important memory of someone very close.

That excused does not make any sense when you think about it for a minute.

The real reason is because they want you to go back to them if you want to get more prints, and they can charge you RM100 for an additional 12R print. If they gave you the full resolution photo, you'll just take that to a regular photo printing shop, and they'll charge you RM20-30. And the studio see none of that money.

If they gave you a medium resolution photo, big enough to print 5R-8R, the customer will still bring that CD to a photo shop. The shop might notice this, and tell the customer "you sure you want to print at 12R? This photo is only sharp at 8R. At 12R, it wouldn't be so sharp anymore, because they resolution is not high enough". The customer thinks for a while and weighs the pros and cons. On the one side "a not so sharp photo", on the other "no photo at all" or a photo that's too small. Usually they say yes.

Or the shop might not notice at all, and simply print the photo.

Or they might notice, but consider the difference in profit between a 12R and 8R photo, and decide not to say anything. After all, the photo at 90dpi is still borderline acceptable for a 12R print anyway.

In any case, consider what kind of photo the customer ends up with - the photo shop prints from a medium or low resolution photo vs if the studio had given the high resolution photo. In which case does the studio's reputation get hurt more?

The most common case is the studio refuse to give any softcopy, and two months later, the customer wants another photo printed. So he brings the photo printed by the studio to a photo shop. "Can you make a copy of this photo?". Well, you know what happens when a photo gets scanned, and reprinted. Not only do you lose more sharpness, the colour balance goes to hell. And most photo shops are not that careful to take that much time to match it back to the original. They'll just do a rough aproximation. There's still worse to come. There'll be times when the customer brings a 6R photo, and wants it blown up to 12R.

This really screws up the studio's reputation.

None of this withholding the high quality digital file actually helps the studio's reputation.

you must refer to what i posted in the context of the entirety of my post.

it makes a lot of sense.

i've had cases before where I gave people picture, and they printed and it look so horrible. i was like 0_o' but nothing I can do.

imagine, you're an award winning photographer but all it takes is for the couple (example wedding photo) to print it lousy and guess what - people will think it's your studio that did a lousy print.


a lot of people don't understand print.

regardless how high quality your image could be, all it takes is someone to just print without knowledge on how to control print and the image is screwed.

let's put it - high detailed off-colored smudged print is still bad.

On second thoughts ...

Back before the time of digital cameras, all studios shoot on film. Many refuse to give the negatives. "If you want more prints, come back here". A few years later, we go back there, and they've thrown away the negatives.

Only a very tiny percentage of customers ever come back to get more prints, or come back soon enough before the studio discards their negatives. Most studios get the majority of their income from when the customer take the photos. But because of this practice, many negatives are lost.

The studios started this practice not because in the unlikely event that you want more prints 6 months down the line, they want you to go back there rather than have them printed elsewhere. Of course they want that, but there's very little of that going on. What they worry about is the "now".

Undoubtedly, all these studios have been "bitten" by the cases where the customer gets a photo taken. Looks at the prices charged, and then orders the smallest prints. They then take the negatives, and have the photos printed at another photo shop. The studios have priced their packages such that prints ordered from them are about 3x or more, higher than the charges for regular prints. They charge very little for their main service, which is the taking of the photos.

OTOH, customers balk at paying for "just taking photo", and having to pay separately for getting the actual photos. So the studios packaged it up, and charge very little (if anything) for taking the photo, and charge exhorbitantly on the prints (to make up for it). Their main problem was the many studio-less photo shops that sprang up in the 1980s and 90s, that were glad to print these studio negatives at normal low prices. They were being undercut, so they held back the negatives.

The practice simply continued in the digital era, switching from negatives to files.

time's changed. nowadays how many people actually order many 4R prints?

In the past, yes. People will order many prints for say their wedding photo. For example.

print for auntie A all the 20 photos that has her in it.
then uncle Be all the photos that has him in it.

this was very common in film days. Studios had a great time printing.

Nowadays this is not the case.

Again, can't generalize it for every studio.

For example, shops like Foto-Zoom and all those general photography shops. I'm not surprise they give you low res.

As for the cases I mentioned earlier, I was referring to those TOP Malaysia wedding photographers. That's their practice of not giving out full resolution photos - they put profit and reputation into consideration.

Then there's the Bridal Houses (like those in PJ SS2) where they actually give you the full resolution photos that you paid for. I'm not saying all do that, just have to check their T&C to confirm.

I can see where they come back to you. If they printed it at a photo shop, the shop points at you, and you point back at them. And the customer blames you AND the shop, though the shop iis at fault.



I was going to say, but giving them low resolution files, or no files at all, merely forces them to make copies of the prints you do give them; ensuring that the copies are even worse.

Then I realized that you do not sign the photos. So it's not like if the photo is sitting on their wall, you worry that their friends would see the horrible result, and that would kill your reputation.

If they were copying the prints, they could see that the duplicate is not like the original, and would blame the shop doing it for them, rather than you the photographer.

Explains not giving any softcopy, but not the low resolution file. Then again, I see some customers would want some files to put on facebook, blog, etc. When you give the softcopy, do you tell your clients it's only for that, and not for printing because the resolution is not high enough?

Oh for my services (I photograph Interior and Food) - I give clients full resolution photos. I don't state it in the T&C but giving them full resolution means I have no need to worry how big they want to print.

They have to decide on their own on how good their print should be, till date I never bothered to inspect their prints though. LOL cos I don't care.