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 even continental carmakers does it

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EnergyAnalyst
post May 15 2013, 01:06 PM

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Most but not all Asian define 'safe' as save $$$ and not save life.

So not just RV but spare-parts availability, cost of maintenance, fuel saving, familiarity of mechanics with the cars and models (more common the safer) are factors that are influencing the car buying choice.

Don't believe me ? open any fast and furious thread on cars comparison and you will see questions formed around exactly those aspects.

And you can enlighten 'them' as best you can, but they will continue to be the majority for perhaps another decade or two.

The common 'practical-above all characteristics' of Asian rules much in us, after-all that is what everyone is succumbed to or at least conditioned to.

So in that way, the once 'Safety above All 'Value holding car makers, whether conti all not will have to attempt to strip down to bare minimal requirement to make head-rooms into that kind of buyer markets (AGAIN read: the majority). After all car makers need to sell cars, Eurozone crisis and US financial crisis has profoundly change their marketing plans : their survival is depending on ASIAN (most importantly CHINA's) car buyers. That is why these great car makers of the west now need to make compromise where cost need to be further cut , air bags , ESP, etc. features need to be stripped down to minimum, to compete just nice enough complying to the local /regional saftety standards.

But just like the latest GE13, you can see the increasing numbers of people who are well informed and truth seeking and urbanized and argubly younger. They will make the same well-informed and truth seeking decision when they buy cars, so the market sentiment (at least in Malaysia) is actually encouraging for car makers that at least try to upheld the safety and high quality of their cars.

The only remaining wish is a truly truly free markets for all, but I know what is practical to hope for and what is not.

EnergyAnalyst
post May 16 2013, 11:08 AM

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QUOTE(kadajawi @ May 15 2013, 01:34 PM)

@EnergyAnalyst: It was like that in Europe too (though not so extreme I believe... many brands were established, unlike here). People changed pretty fast though. Also as you mentioned, younger people think different, and the old ones, no doubt helped by their choice of cars, will die anyway. Though that may still take some time.

Also until few years ago even contis were pretty stripped down compared to the same car in Europe (our entry level 2002 Citroen Xsara has 6 airbags, and if it had a 1.6 or higher it would also have ESP. The model that was sold here only had 2 airbags and that's all, even though the car was much higher spec). So the safety specs of cars is improving a lot in Malaysia, at least for contis and Korean cars. They are not cutting down the safety features. Heck, even Toyota is improving their cars, with the mid and high spec Camry getting ESP/VSC. Probably because sales were not as good as hoped, and people told them they want VSC.
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The big difference in Malaysia, consumer are usually provided very limited variance, if I am all ready to pay more for more safety feature , etc. very often than not, I have 2 or 3 at most, while in Europe, e.g. Ford focus, Msia has 2 variance for sports, in Europe , in UK as example, you tr to configure your car. See link below

http://www.ford.co.uk/SBE/ConfigureYourVeh...p=1204999041082
setting aside ST, look at the options, 9, in total

And no thanks to the stupid national automotive policy, probably the same applies in Brazil or other countries?, car seller has limit set to the kind of variance they can bring in due to political constraints or economic or logistic-wise constraints too, so THAT makes a world of difference. So it is not the same like in Europe (to that extreme or not), PERIOD. The playing field is very very lopsided.
EnergyAnalyst
post May 16 2013, 01:29 PM

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QUOTE(kadajawi @ May 16 2013, 12:02 PM)
Yes, I am aware of that. What I was talking about was that they these days pick most of the safety features, only more expensive, high end crash prevention systems may be missing.  That is a big change for the better.

From what I see they generally offer mid to high spec cars with the (second) most expensive petrol engine option.

It is of course a shame that we can't get them to produce a car just for us, with the options WE want. Though trust me, it bloats the car price a lot. The base price may be low, but that is with an engine that Malaysians would consider way too weak (when they already complain that the engines that we do get now are not powerful enough). Try a B segment car with around 60 HP (Polo). Put in an automatic gearbox and a more powerful engine (which will also require higher specs) and the price goes up significantly. Then there are many options to pick from, and several of the must haves are coupled to crap you don't need. Say if you want a Merc with electric seats you will have to get leather too... AND chrome trim on the interior. All of which costs. Want a certain safety feature and they will force you to get a bunch of other stuff. Etc.

Wait times would be quite extreme though. The cars may not be manufactured Thailand maybe, cause the factory isn't ready for that, lacks the parts, ... So fully imported it has to be. Then you need to wait for them to start production after you ordered it... That may take a couple of months, I believe a friend needed to wait half a year for them to produce the car. Then delivery to Malaysia... (Usually they make you pay for that in Germany. Basically an option not seen in the list price that you can't do without). NAP will be one of the main problems why this can't be done...
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my argument is:

In up and coming countries like BRAZIL & MALAYSIA BOTH, often car price are ALREADY bloated anyway due to the tax regime/NAP or the like of NAP. This and this alone force 'non conformists' (e.g. Malaysian, who have enough of Both pROTten and PeROT-too-al) unless they have big pocket, will have to take a step backward in terms of tech and safety, just to get a taste of conti make. AND Conti car makers WILL COMPROMISE else their car will never have a chance for enticing the great big majority of mid income earners who may end up buying a conti as an natural upgrade in life, however pathetic it is compare to what they can get for the same amount of money in Europe/US/Aussie, etc.

And by doing so, the result is POSSIBLY what you see in term of quality (to cut cost , sourced from local company) and safety poor scoring, etc like what is seen in Brazil.

So my points stays, you can expect poorer result from Latin NCAP, ASEAN NCAP, CHINA NCAP compare to IIHS, Euro NCAP, Australia NCAP, etc. As long at there is NAP or the like of NAP, the world is not fair, so YES, even conti cars maker does it, but the bigger question is WHY? so here is my POV.


EnergyAnalyst
post May 17 2013, 12:58 AM

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@kadajawi

See the worksheet for segment B prepared by Kensomuse, tell me what u see.

Note:Peugeot 208 was left out but we can add it in once I get hold of the spec sheet tomorrow
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This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: May 17 2013, 01:06 AM
EnergyAnalyst
post May 17 2013, 10:15 AM

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@kadajawi
WOW YOU SEE SO MUCH !

How come all I see is: If I want to start having a conti owning experience, with a budget of around 80k+ , going for a segment B, setting a minimum 4 air bags (6 or more will be ideal) with ESP as guiding post, I can only buy FIESTA SEDAN LX (7 air bags with ESP), and not the sporty one (2 air bags only) with Peugeot 208 as the only alternative (6 air bags with ESP)

VW is beyond my reach , even the made-in-india old tech/platform recycled Polo Sedan (4 air bags BUT NO ESP) is 99,888. Let alone the real POLO that is priced from RM113,888

Now, how come you still say it is the same in Germany?

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: May 17 2013, 10:17 AM
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post May 17 2013, 12:47 PM

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QUOTE(kadajawi @ May 17 2013, 12:23 PM)
Not same, but closer than many think. They think without the taxes you can drive a B segment conti for 40k. Not gonna happen, unless you are willing to take the specs as I mentioned.

Why the Fiesta S only has 2 airbags... ask Ford. I have no clue... maybe they thought that wouldn't be necessary cause it still sells well. But they most definitely should upgrade it. Especially since the cheaper manual one has got it. The only thing I can think of is that the calculation is already rather tight, and the options the S has over the LX (sports suspension, body kit etc.) make it so expensive that they have to leave away the airbags to fit the price. At least they have versions with all the safety features too, but they cost more. I'd rather have them leave away some of the superficial stuff though and add bag the airbags.

As for the Polo Sedan I am looking at the best price they are apparently offering... reportedly around 85k. The prices from Germany are after discount too, otherwise the higher spec versions would be around 80-85k. The Sedan is overpriced, I agree, but I have the feeling they are doing that to a) protect their image/position in the market and b) are preparing the launch of a cheaper CKD version.

Also the 2 side airbags fulfill the function of 4 side airbags.

And the lower end tech? Yes, it has a torque converter. Isn't everyone complaining that VW is using DSG and DSG is too unreliable? What else are they supposed to do? Offer torque converter people also complain... The Sedan is meant for the Japan fans. Good brand, proven tech that is not too fancy.

Japanese cars are around 80k too... Oh and somewhere I read that the only reason the 1.4 Fiesta was so cheap was because Ford tricked the government. First register the more expensive version, and once the pricing got confirmed (as low as they'd allow B segment cars to get) try to bring in a downgraded model that thus has to be cheaper.
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There you go, why Fiesta S 2 airbags? logically it is a compromise, Polo Sedan no ESP , even at 85k (if that is even going to happen), it is still a form of compromise. conclusion : Conti also have to do it and WE ALL KNOW WHY.

The only comfort is due to Japs only offering 2 air bags and except City, all with no ESP, it makes wiser and safety demanding buyer makes easier choice.
But the conti even compromised, face very stiff Korean competition since a new Kia RIO starting price from 74k comes with 6 air bags and ESP/ESC with many many VW like features, CLONES or otherwise
EnergyAnalyst
post May 17 2013, 02:07 PM

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At least for ford, they do offer Fiesta S variance with 7 airbags and ESP but bundled with like u say, body kit, and and makes the price increased by to 91k to 93k (SAPHIRE AND BETA ) from a more agreeable 85k.

For VW, here is the thing, i suspect very much it is not merely a matter of Premium they want to project, it is more like a love hate situation with the local partner. Unlike Ford who has gelled it quite well with SIME DARBY, or Peugeot with NAZA (both Are Darlings Companies of The M States), VW have it rough i guess with DRB HICOM, due to the failure in tie up agreement talk with PROTON.

Maybe VW decline to take part in nonsense like NEP, NAP, in the end, consumer loose, ditto VW (but in a bigger scheme of thing, they can equally say, it is your M lost, not mine becoz they are big enough)
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post May 18 2013, 04:25 PM

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QUOTE(kadajawi @ May 18 2013, 02:33 AM)
I thought VW is managing things itself here? DRB HICOM only does assembly...? If not then that could be possible. Aren't there supposed to be more CKD models coming soon'ish? Including perhaps the Polo sedan... then we should hopefully see more affordable and better spec'ed Polo sedans...
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Read this
http://www.motortrader.com.my/news/history...en-in-malaysia/

And this 2006 super drama
http://paultan.org/2006/02/15/volkswagen-a...-sole-importer/
http://paultan.org/2006/07/06/cycle-carria...erdealer-talks/
http://paultan.org/2006/08/29/volkswagen-a...ealership-deal/
Then the twist
http://paultan.org/2006/09/11/volkswagen-a...in-immediately/

Follow by this
http://www.theedgemalaysia.com/mobile/article.php?id=4874
http://paultan.org/2009/11/10/vw-cars-no-l...kswagen-dealer/

Then this
http://www.trafficmagonline.com/vw-cars-sd...hd-for-damages/

DRB has an entrenched position in the automotive business, where EON is the master dealer for national automaker Proton Holdings Bhd. Marques under the DRB banner include Honda, Mitsubishi, Suzuki and Chevrolet.

VW malaysia is an administrator . When your assembly is done at DRB Hicom , and u don't play ball with them for master dealership , through EON part of DRB Hicom, then again u don't play ball to rescue DRB hicom's baby Proton. Life for u will not be easy in Malaysia Mr VW.

But I guess as a typical German who accept no bullshit. VW just made their stands

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: May 18 2013, 05:01 PM
EnergyAnalyst
post Oct 20 2021, 12:13 PM

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Love these sort of discussion....Reviving.... Necromancer..Live again Phoenix

 

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