cost-cutting and killing drivers.
and they denied it.

news clip

I am not surprised. That's why each area needs to do their own crash tests. It's (relatively) easy to call out the car makers too... import the same model but bought from Europe or America, and crash that. Same test. See how different the results are.



And supposedly the same car in Latin America:


As I said before, what T&H are doing here is what any car maker would do, if they can. Cut costs. It is up to the consumer to ensure they will only buy safe cars. Don't only complain, do something. You don't like the government? Vote for the opposition. You want a safe car? Stop buying the ones that are not safe.

This post has been edited by kadajawi: May 13 2013, 04:23 PM

Just another day in the automotive business

I agree, vote with your wallet.

This post has been edited by sanadi: May 13 2013, 04:39 PM

I think a big problem is that people simply think a Toyota will be safe. Even safer than lets say a VW. Correct me if I'm wrong. They just aren't informed well enough. I don't watch much TV, were the crash tests from ASEAN NCAP shown on TV? Like in the mainstream news? In Germany it is not that uncommon to see such things on TV, especially if a car performs poorly.

Unfortunately, Malaysians put more consideration into what *other* people thinks. Friends, especially families. They couldn't say NO to friends/family even though their logical thought say otherwise. It will change. *Slowly*.... *painfully slowly* but it will change. T & H & N have attained almost automotive godhood status in Malaysia.

Taken the quote from the article.


It's either Latin NCAP has the most stringent crash test in the world or car manufacturer is spewing shit.

This is serious.

ok, lets go for Volvo

My family member is entertaining the idea of getting the new Vios when it gets here in a few more months. I have no way of dissuading them. Suggested Focus to them, they tell me no resale value. OK they want Toyota, so I relented and suggested Prius C, they say too small no boot and the same no resale value excuse. They already look at my Fiesta satu macam, so I'm not gonna recommend another Fiesta.

WTF, I give up.

it's not easy to change someone's mind

This post has been edited by zerohunter: May 13 2013, 06:30 PM

I wonder what they'll say when 2 airbag no ESP cars have no resale value anymore, regardless of brand. Try selling a car without aircon...

That's the problem with RV: You are trying to look into the future. I believe the Forte has quite good RV? Everyone would have told you 5 years ago that Kias have no RV. Well... not true anymore, for some models. I believe that in 5 years a Vios will not fetch a better RV than lets say a 208 or Fiesta, quite possibly it will have poor RV.

But isn't it fun?

This post has been edited by kadajawi: May 13 2013, 07:02 PM

Resale Values are fast becoming a myth. The old guards who constantly poison our minds will no longer be relevant when extending their opinions.

Car market is fast changing.

The order of they day is:

1) buyers are getting younger - they form their own opinions about what they want..RV may no longer be a priority.

2) Car makers like Ford and Peugeot are putting in a lot of features at a very competitive pricing.. so end of the, value added features will rule.

so if anyone gives you stick about RV, just ignore them politely.

Kimchi....I think also out of the question.

If die die also want sushi, I'm gonna tell them to get the Honda City. At least ASEAN NCAP 5 stars lolololol

what u want more?

toyota has not hide behind NCAP ratings, and perhaps they dont care at all about safety, knowing at some parts in the world their products are taken for granted. dont serve me defame suit toyota, i am not saying ur products arent safe. but then and again toyota has not design something that is not safe at all.

but some car makers are looking at this regional specific NCAP ratings as an opportunity to hide behind it and be seen safe. so they got good ratings, and people who dont do good homework are conned to believe the products are certified good and safe. and sales boomed. cunning u may think but when u are behind the wheel on any vehicles made by makers with this sort of thinking, u may not want to drive very fast. perhaps a quick drive to the shops and back, thats all the driving u may be doing.

so there are cons. when u got this regional specific NCAP ratings. and please bear in mind the risk of subjectivity of these tests which may favour the home region makes

Public awareness is still severely lacking.

For example, my cousins who are almost the same age as me, have never heard of NCAP before. When it comes to buying car, it's either Toyota, Nissan or Honda since most of their peers drive them. Look at all the Almera and Vios on the road. You tell them Avanza is a third world car made for third world countries, they'll think you're just sour grapes.

Bring them to Indonesia and watch, they might had a clearer picture.

I guess many people look at pure money not the actual value.

People buy health insurance and medical cards, yet they ignore basic stuff like car safety over resale value when car safety can mean the difference between walking away from a crash or being carried away in a stretcher. Maybe you can tell your family member to think of the "lesser" resale value as insurance for his/her own well being in case of an accident.

Lambos are taxis and Aston martins are police cars in somewhere...

This post has been edited by stix: May 13 2013, 08:09 PM

lol, the ASEAN NCAP 5 star rating will fall once ASEAN NCAP will also do side impacts and pole impacts.

@mokhzaini: The Avanza was tested in China to be rather average for a Chinese car from several years ago (actually similar rating to the Gen2... the Gen2 was a bit better).

Btw.: Health insurance? In Malaysia? Why?! So I can go to a private hospital where I get so-so treatment but a nice TV? Not necessary... A safe car is much more important

@stix: Well, in Germany Porsche and Ferrari are used as driving school cars. Though it's really just a novelty thing to get customers... you'll get one lesson in it, and that's at the slowest speed possible. But yes, the Saudis have an One-77 as police car... and the Italians use Lamborghinis for that. Again, more like a novelty thing. German highway cops like to use delimited "sleepers" without police markings. It's kind of useful when you are hunting down people who drive too fast in cars that are fast...

This post has been edited by kadajawi: May 13 2013, 09:52 PM

china company took over, ever since its no more reliable.

whatever it is...which is more important - RV or your life?
Sadly some will choose RV because they think life is cheap.....damn cheap.

So much talk about safety features.. Yet when your time is up, no matter how safe, how many airbags you have can save you.

Anyway, let's just wait and see for the next phase of our local MIROS crash test..

Dubai police seriously gotb deep pockets.








Apparently, Bugatti Veyron is next on their shopping list.

Use the same money to buy 2nd hand passat 2.0 tsi, bigger, safer, faster, and drive till it rots

So that means Allah/God hates Malaysians (or likes them so much he wants to have them near him ASAP), and Chinese/Indians in Malaysia are always doing bad things so they have bad karma? Please... Why are so few Europeans dying on the road compared to these regions?

This post has been edited by kadajawi: May 14 2013, 11:03 AM

Most but not all Asian define 'safe' as save $$$ and not save life.

So not just RV but spare-parts availability, cost of maintenance, fuel saving, familiarity of mechanics with the cars and models (more common the safer) are factors that are influencing the car buying choice.

Don't believe me ? open any fast and furious thread on cars comparison and you will see questions formed around exactly those aspects.

And you can enlighten 'them' as best you can, but they will continue to be the majority for perhaps another decade or two.

The common 'practical-above all characteristics' of Asian rules much in us, after-all that is what everyone is succumbed to or at least conditioned to.

So in that way, the once 'Safety above All 'Value holding car makers, whether conti all not will have to attempt to strip down to bare minimal requirement to make head-rooms into that kind of buyer markets (AGAIN read: the majority). After all car makers need to sell cars, Eurozone crisis and US financial crisis has profoundly change their marketing plans : their survival is depending on ASIAN (most importantly CHINA's) car buyers. That is why these great car makers of the west now need to make compromise where cost need to be further cut , air bags , ESP, etc. features need to be stripped down to minimum, to compete just nice enough complying to the local /regional saftety standards.

But just like the latest GE13, you can see the increasing numbers of people who are well informed and truth seeking and urbanized and argubly younger. They will make the same well-informed and truth seeking decision when they buy cars, so the market sentiment (at least in Malaysia) is actually encouraging for car makers that at least try to upheld the safety and high quality of their cars.

The only remaining wish is a truly truly free markets for all, but I know what is practical to hope for and what is not.

Does it use the 7DSG with dry clutch? If yes then it will rot very soon

Check out the pictures i posted in the Forte forum and I've got people replying its ok to get rust in under your car seat after 3.5 yrs and a mere 21k mileage. Click the link

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...post&p=60344290

This post has been edited by Jenn77: May 15 2013, 01:31 PM

Isn't VW replacing/fixing faulty DSG gearboxes?

@EnergyAnalyst: It was like that in Europe too (though not so extreme I believe... many brands were established, unlike here). People changed pretty fast though. Also as you mentioned, younger people think different, and the old ones, no doubt helped by their choice of cars, will die anyway. Though that may still take some time.

Also until few years ago even contis were pretty stripped down compared to the same car in Europe (our entry level 2002 Citroen Xsara has 6 airbags, and if it had a 1.6 or higher it would also have ESP. The model that was sold here only had 2 airbags and that's all, even though the car was much higher spec). So the safety specs of cars is improving a lot in Malaysia, at least for contis and Korean cars. They are not cutting down the safety features. Heck, even Toyota is improving their cars, with the mid and high spec Camry getting ESP/VSC. Probably because sales were not as good as hoped, and people told them they want VSC.

This post has been edited by kadajawi: May 15 2013, 01:37 PM

Should be 6 speed DSG wet clutch, Dry clutch cannot tahan that much of torque from 2.0l Turbo Engine.

The big difference in Malaysia, consumer are usually provided very limited variance, if I am all ready to pay more for more safety feature , etc. very often than not, I have 2 or 3 at most, while in Europe, e.g. Ford focus, Msia has 2 variance for sports, in Europe , in UK as example, you tr to configure your car. See link below

http://www.ford.co.uk/SBE/ConfigureYourVeh...p=1204999041082
setting aside ST, look at the options, 9, in total

And no thanks to the stupid national automotive policy, probably the same applies in Brazil or other countries?, car seller has limit set to the kind of variance they can bring in due to political constraints or economic or logistic-wise constraints too, so THAT makes a world of difference. So it is not the same like in Europe (to that extreme or not), PERIOD. The playing field is very very lopsided.

Yes, I am aware of that. What I was talking about was that they these days pick most of the safety features, only more expensive, high end crash prevention systems may be missing. That is a big change for the better.

From what I see they generally offer mid to high spec cars with the (second) most expensive petrol engine option.

It is of course a shame that we can't get them to produce a car just for us, with the options WE want. Though trust me, it bloats the car price a lot. The base price may be low, but that is with an engine that Malaysians would consider way too weak (when they already complain that the engines that we do get now are not powerful enough). Try a B segment car with around 60 HP (Polo). Put in an automatic gearbox and a more powerful engine (which will also require higher specs) and the price goes up significantly. Then there are many options to pick from, and several of the must haves are coupled to crap you don't need. Say if you want a Merc with electric seats you will have to get leather too... AND chrome trim on the interior. All of which costs. Want a certain safety feature and they will force you to get a bunch of other stuff. Etc.

Wait times would be quite extreme though. The cars may not be manufactured Thailand maybe, cause the factory isn't ready for that, lacks the parts, ... So fully imported it has to be. Then you need to wait for them to start production after you ordered it... That may take a couple of months, I believe a friend needed to wait half a year for them to produce the car. Then delivery to Malaysia... (Usually they make you pay for that in Germany. Basically an option not seen in the list price that you can't do without). NAP will be one of the main problems why this can't be done...

my argument is:

In up and coming countries like BRAZIL & MALAYSIA BOTH, often car price are ALREADY bloated anyway due to the tax regime/NAP or the like of NAP. This and this alone force 'non conformists' (e.g. Malaysian, who have enough of Both pROTten and PeROT-too-al) unless they have big pocket, will have to take a step backward in terms of tech and safety, just to get a taste of conti make. AND Conti car makers WILL COMPROMISE else their car will never have a chance for enticing the great big majority of mid income earners who may end up buying a conti as an natural upgrade in life, however pathetic it is compare to what they can get for the same amount of money in Europe/US/Aussie, etc.

And by doing so, the result is POSSIBLY what you see in term of quality (to cut cost , sourced from local company) and safety poor scoring, etc like what is seen in Brazil.

So my points stays, you can expect poorer result from Latin NCAP, ASEAN NCAP, CHINA NCAP compare to IIHS, Euro NCAP, Australia NCAP, etc. As long at there is NAP or the like of NAP, the world is not fair, so YES, even conti cars maker does it, but the bigger question is WHY? so here is my POV.

When I look at contis in Malaysia, they are priced almost the same as they are in Germany. VW, Ford. Yes, those cars are cheaper in Germany... if you chose the low spec ones. Same specs, same price. I guess they make less profit here. I'm sure the car makers would love to offer lower spec cars in order to appeal to more customers, but THAT is not allowed by the government. Thus the ridiculously high spec cars.

Now when we look at T&H we can see that they too are fixed to a high price point, although THEY offer way less (all of that despite the fact that these cars, at same spec levels, would cost about the same in Germany). Thus these car makers make more profit.

You say that because the taxes are so high, continental car makers need to reduce the safety standard to make the cars cheaper, so they can be sold for less. But exactly that is not possible. Otherwise why wouldn't Ford offer a Vios J spec Fiesta? Shouldn't that be much cheaper? Well, no it wouldn't, cause the government would say "can't do that". They'd say it has to cost at least 75k, otherwise you won't get a permission to sell it. And as the contis struggle in the Malaysian market, they have to offer more than Japanese brands in order to be attractive. That includes safety.

Also you forget the countless Japanese cars on our roads. They are just as expensive as their continental counterparts. People seem to be able to afford them, right?

If you look at the poor Latin NCAP results you see that all these conti models were basically built for Latin America. Most of them are based on old, outdated platforms, and were given a newer look. To my knowledge this hasn't happened in Malaysia, with the exception of the 207 (which is a 206 underneath). A European Ford Ka Mk I wouldn't do well either if tested today... likewise the Latin American Ford Ka, which is still based on that old model, won't do well.

The Ford Fiesta was tested in ASEAN NCAP, and it IIRC did just as good as it did in EuroNCAP. So that model is the same, there is no difference in terms of safety. Likewise the Polo will probably be identical (apart from the Polo Sedan), etc. But of course crash tests should be done to proof that.

Basically this is not Latin America, conti brands are not in a position where they can offer lousy cars for high prices. It is Japanese brands who can do that.

@kadajawi

See the worksheet for segment B prepared by Kensomuse, tell me what u see.

Note:Peugeot 208 was left out but we can add it in once I get hold of the spec sheet tomorrow



This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: May 17 2013, 01:06 AM

I see only the most powerful engines the manufacturers offer for these cars. I see cars with airconditioning. Front fog lights. Some even got auto airconditioning. I see auto gearboxes. 5 doors. Those are at least mid range cars.

Let me list you what an entry level Polo has in Germany. 3 doors (5 doors costs quite a bit more). 1.2 liter engine. No turbo. It produces 60 hp. 5 speed manual gearbox. It is white, or blue. Any other color costs more. Power windows in the front, manual at the back (or maybe not even manual ones...). Manual seats in front, only the driver seat can be adjusted in height. Rear seats can be folded, but only as one big piece. No easy entry. No arm rest for the driver/passenger. No storage under driver and passenger seat. No floor mats (yes... optional). No aircon (not even manual). No reading lights in front or back. Nothing is leather of course. Side mirrors are not painted and have to be adjusted by hand. They don't fold, are not heated. Bumpers are painted and there is hill assist. Drum brakes at the back. 14" 175/70 on steel rims. No spare tyre. Got power steering. Got thermometer, but no trip computer. No radio, no speakers, no antenna. No parking sensors. 4 airbags, though the 2 side ones are also protecting the head (i.e. do the same job as 6 airbags in other cars... I guess the Polo sedan can be considered to have 6 airbags too then). ESP have. DRL have. Central locking yes, but not via remote. Headlights manually adjustable (AFAIK a must in Europe). High CO2 emissions and fuel consumption (lousy engine... no power but thirsty).

That's it. As you can see this thing is as empty and powerful as a entry level Viva, apart from the safety features. You can get this car for around RM 43k, including German taxes, and including the best discounts you can get. If you are looking for 105 hp and DSG, you'll be looking at around 70k... and that's before options (though it is a Highline car, so already quite ok speced. It seems like there is still no radio though). 140 hp and you'll spend 76000 (admittedly topping up 6k sounds quite reasonable... but you do lose the aircon and some other comfort features like power windows for the rear, parking sensors, ...).

Also I have looked at the Polo, which is quite overpriced here. The Fiesta is pretty much the same price in Germany as it is here, once you reach the same specs.

Btw., the 5 door 208 costs around RM 3000 more than the 3 door, but there are higher spec options available for the 3 door that are missing from the 5 door. Specs are otherwise pretty much the same as with the Polo, though they do add an antenna (no radio or speakers), you get a remote control, lose the hill assist the Polo has, and you get a trip computer. You also get 68 instead of 60 hp out of a 1.0, mated to a 5 speed manual. RM 39000 is the price for this packet. RM 62000 is the price for 5 doors, 120 hp and a 4 speed auto gearbox (a 4k option over the manual one). And I'm sure there are still quite a few options to tick before you reach the same specs as the 208 has in Malaysia.

This post has been edited by kadajawi: May 17 2013, 02:23 AM

Any vdo of Abrams M1A2 crash test ah ?

@kadajawi
WOW YOU SEE SO MUCH !

How come all I see is: If I want to start having a conti owning experience, with a budget of around 80k+ , going for a segment B, setting a minimum 4 air bags (6 or more will be ideal) with ESP as guiding post, I can only buy FIESTA SEDAN LX (7 air bags with ESP), and not the sporty one (2 air bags only) with Peugeot 208 as the only alternative (6 air bags with ESP)

VW is beyond my reach , even the made-in-india old tech/platform recycled Polo Sedan (4 air bags BUT NO ESP) is 99,888. Let alone the real POLO that is priced from RM113,888

Now, how come you still say it is the same in Germany?

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: May 17 2013, 10:17 AM

Not same, but closer than many think. They think without the taxes you can drive a B segment conti for 40k. Not gonna happen, unless you are willing to take the specs as I mentioned.

Why the Fiesta S only has 2 airbags... ask Ford. I have no clue... maybe they thought that wouldn't be necessary cause it still sells well. But they most definitely should upgrade it. Especially since the cheaper manual one has got it. The only thing I can think of is that the calculation is already rather tight, and the options the S has over the LX (sports suspension, body kit etc.) make it so expensive that they have to leave away the airbags to fit the price. At least they have versions with all the safety features too, but they cost more. I'd rather have them leave away some of the superficial stuff though and add bag the airbags.

As for the Polo Sedan I am looking at the best price they are apparently offering... reportedly around 85k. The prices from Germany are after discount too, otherwise the higher spec versions would be around 80-85k. The Sedan is overpriced, I agree, but I have the feeling they are doing that to a) protect their image/position in the market and b) are preparing the launch of a cheaper CKD version.

Also the 2 side airbags fulfill the function of 4 side airbags.

And the lower end tech? Yes, it has a torque converter. Isn't everyone complaining that VW is using DSG and DSG is too unreliable? What else are they supposed to do? Offer torque converter people also complain... The Sedan is meant for the Japan fans. Good brand, proven tech that is not too fancy.

Japanese cars are around 80k too... Oh and somewhere I read that the only reason the 1.4 Fiesta was so cheap was because Ford tricked the government. First register the more expensive version, and once the pricing got confirmed (as low as they'd allow B segment cars to get) try to bring in a downgraded model that thus has to be cheaper.

There you go, why Fiesta S 2 airbags? logically it is a compromise, Polo Sedan no ESP , even at 85k (if that is even going to happen), it is still a form of compromise. conclusion : Conti also have to do it and WE ALL KNOW WHY.

The only comfort is due to Japs only offering 2 air bags and except City, all with no ESP, it makes wiser and safety demanding buyer makes easier choice.
But the conti even compromised, face very stiff Korean competition since a new Kia RIO starting price from 74k comes with 6 air bags and ESP/ESC with many many VW like features, CLONES or otherwise

I guess it is a compromise you make for getting nonsense like a bodykit. They should at least offer a version... like Fiesta LX 1.6 hatchback. Same as sedan, just a bit cheaper cause hatchback.

A couple of months people here could get it for around 85k... they just don't want to advertise that price. Sales aren't that good (obviously), so you can get nice discounts it seems. But they probably try to keep their premium position, so it can't be too cheap in the public perception. The lack of ESP may have to do with it being from India. They may not offer ESP in India (don't know...), in which case they probably won't bother fitting it for the few cars they sell to Malaysia. The car is basically limited by what Indians can get.

Kias are supposed to be cheaper. The Malaysian government is allowing prices according to perception too, probably. So a premium brand won't have the chance to sell an affordable car. They may not be allowed to do so. Likewise, a brand that is considered rubbish is more likely to get the permission, since it is not seen as a big threat to Proton and Perodua.

Anyway, my main point was that we are getting a lot of car for the money. Getting the _same_ car in Germany would also be pretty expensive. A bit cheaper, yes. But not as much as you'd think. With the Touran and Passat I went through the price list... I believe the Touran was around 155k or so in Germany, the Passat 160k? Something like that. For the Fiesta, back when I checked, there was no DSG. So the Malaysian model was, at least in one area, higher spec than the German one. Ford is really offering as much as they possibly can within the budget.

Now do the taxes raise prices... yes. Of course. Should they go? Yes, of course. But worse is that the government can reject cars if they think the price is too low. That is what really stops us from getting affordable contis. Though I wonder what people will say when the B segment cars come with less than 70 hp... when they already complain 100+ is underpowered.

At least for ford, they do offer Fiesta S variance with 7 airbags and ESP but bundled with like u say, body kit, and and makes the price increased by to 91k to 93k (SAPHIRE AND BETA ) from a more agreeable 85k.

For VW, here is the thing, i suspect very much it is not merely a matter of Premium they want to project, it is more like a love hate situation with the local partner. Unlike Ford who has gelled it quite well with SIME DARBY, or Peugeot with NAZA (both Are Darlings Companies of The M States), VW have it rough i guess with DRB HICOM, due to the failure in tie up agreement talk with PROTON.

Maybe VW decline to take part in nonsense like NEP, NAP, in the end, consumer loose, ditto VW (but in a bigger scheme of thing, they can equally say, it is your M lost, not mine becoz they are big enough)

You can find M-1A1 or M-1A2 crash test video on YouTube. It passed with flying colours as it destroyed all incoming technicals (old toyota pickup with DSHK MG or RPG) and cars fitted with IEDs before they could collide. It's the famous video of it entering Baghdad with camera mounted on gunner's sight. Can even flatten cars and lorries in collision safely.

Back to topic, whatever car brands, their products option are controlled by local car companies management. Conti brands even if reduced to no airbag, at least they still have to proper handling for safety. Also, the chassis frames are made thicker with some sacrificing interior space for thicker protection to occupants inside. Whatever they reduce, the most vital ABS is still there.

At least they still do better than N-brand that removed the most important ABS from N16 Sentra. Without ABS and strong brake grip will end up wheel lock easily and they do make full use of its dual front airbags.

I thought VW is managing things itself here? DRB HICOM only does assembly...? If not then that could be possible. Aren't there supposed to be more CKD models coming soon'ish? Including perhaps the Polo sedan... then we should hopefully see more affordable and better spec'ed Polo sedans...

Read this
http://www.motortrader.com.my/news/history...en-in-malaysia/

And this 2006 super drama
http://paultan.org/2006/02/15/volkswagen-a...-sole-importer/
http://paultan.org/2006/07/06/cycle-carria...erdealer-talks/
http://paultan.org/2006/08/29/volkswagen-a...ealership-deal/
Then the twist
http://paultan.org/2006/09/11/volkswagen-a...in-immediately/

Follow by this
http://www.theedgemalaysia.com/mobile/article.php?id=4874
http://paultan.org/2009/11/10/vw-cars-no-l...kswagen-dealer/

Then this
http://www.trafficmagonline.com/vw-cars-sd...hd-for-damages/

DRB has an entrenched position in the automotive business, where EON is the master dealer for national automaker Proton Holdings Bhd. Marques under the DRB banner include Honda, Mitsubishi, Suzuki and Chevrolet.

VW malaysia is an administrator . When your assembly is done at DRB Hicom , and u don't play ball with them for master dealership , through EON part of DRB Hicom, then again u don't play ball to rescue DRB hicom's baby Proton. Life for u will not be easy in Malaysia Mr VW.

But I guess as a typical German who accept no bullshit. VW just made their stands

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: May 18 2013, 05:01 PM

Love these sort of discussion....Reviving.... Necromancer..Live again Phoenix