Like I said in paultan. This will be a very long reply...sorry. You only need to understand this once.

Car sales will be like normal-car prices gradually slash-by not much. Lets say that 20-30% removed over 5 years. You will not feel it immediately as newer models of the same make will go up with each model (except for the VW Golf Mk 7 which is the same price mk6-mk7). Price goes up with inflation. Unavoidable. So gomen remove that 20-30%, so the newer model will actually cost about the same as the model it replaces.

It is actually worse in UK. I've been there 7 years.
Car cheap. Petrol £1.40/liter with the gomen there increase petrol prices twice every year by few pence. Then, labour, parts cost expensive. That is why people there, normal service all DIY. Even change broken light also DIY. This is because normal service ~£300. Over here RM300. Our labour is cheap. Who the hell wants to pay RM1.5k for routine service. Also, in UK, there is a 20% VAT on almost every item you buy. However, in UK you can survive with public transport alone. Cannot be done here.

We actually have it way better compared to them. Sure car expensive, but our purchasing power was never big to begin with. £1 = RM4.7x. Rafizi's statement is a populist move. Can be done, but gomen need to be ultra efficient/no corruption. Even if PR come in, Bank Negara will step in if budgets not balanced. PR wants to balance both cashflow and make cars cheap the same time.

Even if PR come in, Proton will survive. There are more than 10k people working in Proton. They have family members. Overall you got at least 30k people working from parts to SC. If you close Proton, who are going to give them jobs. 30k is a lot of people that can vote. Plus that with their sedara mara, any gomen that comes in cannot just close shop.

Rather than wishing "Proton Just Die" better bring in people like DSZ. DSZ was going somewhere. Now it is DRB's problem. Problem is, my sources inside Proton now a lot quit, DRB has a ruthless culture. That is why you see Proton Motorsports fb and Gomen fb website have opening places for Proton. I think I saw that last week. At least 30 vacant places, including senior level jobs. If you are qualified, better apply there. At least now you can help make it better rather than just talk: "Proton just die".

For the next 5 years, maybe current BN can copy the PR manifesto, say we will abolish 70% tax, after increasing fuel price, GST. Bank Negara as the safekeeper non-political organisation will make sure that if car taxes are removed, the nation does not go bankrupt. If PR comes in, and Bank Negara does not agree, the 70% will not be done. Bank Negara already come out with a ruling to for car purchase. Loan based on NET income, not GROSS income. This is done to protect the Malaysian consumer in order not to be in too much debt.

So, a cikgu sekolah, can no longer buy a RM300k Merc/BMW based on the Gross income of RM3k but must minus expenses. So now can only qualify at most a RM 70k car.

Bank Negara also needs to monitor cash outflow, currency levels, attack against currency (forex speculation), market trends. That is why, even though the gomen banyak hutang, as long as the hutang is done in RM, gomen will never go bankrupt. If Malaysia hutang China with RM, Malaysia will never be out of pocket, because Bank Negara can just print more money. The problem is when Malaysia hutang in €, $, £. Now, Malaysia cannot just go print those currencies. Most easy example: Go wiki Hyperinflation, specifically Zimbabwe. That country kena hentam kaw-kaw by UK (mostly) and forex traders, currency worthless-but the country is still working. In fact, if you noticed, from 1 bil Zimbabwe : 1usd, now 10k zimbabwe : 1 USD. That currency fluctuates too much for it to be considered stable. Once Zimbabwe currency is in freefall, the forex traders will buy it back. So the currency will have value again.

This is the same problem faced when Malaysia economic crisis. Tun M go ask people to spend. Logic behind this is if money is not circulated, it is worthless. You got money, simpan under bantal, it does not generate income. At least money in bank, bank can use for investment. Using money during an economic crisis to buy stuff actually is one method to make currency stable. Other methods include devaluing currency. Right now, if you notice, RM is quite strong against USD, GBP, but our currency is actually pegged by Bank Negara. Bank Negara now primarily follows the China Renmibi. I think it is at RM1 : 2 Renmibi or somewhere there. USD not a stable currency to peg on. Renmibi is artificially devalued. US, UK all dah ask China to increase currency. The economic crisis in UK, US is partly caused by China. China keeping its currency worthless, so outflow of currency from UK, US as they import China made items. Now China use it to buy gold reserves, and not importing stuff from UK/US block. So what happens is you see the Mat salleh so poor now. The € currency so bad. China also use the money to develop stuff inside its country, further alienating the Mat sallehs.

Bank Negara sees this, and decides, we will follow China at a 2:1 ratio. Why 2:1? It seems that Malaysia's manufacturing/output/export capacity is worth twice as much as China. That is in simple terms. So we are worth twice compared to China labour. Also, it protects the RM from the Forex speculators quite nicely. So you see that even though our RM: Renmibi may change, it will not be drastic. Of course, we based the currency on the gold reserves, but Bank Negara kind of binned that idea after our currency was attacked. Go wiki Malaysia currency. Malaysia was a key player in Forex exchange. Before the econ crisis, the country was the top 5 player in world currency manipulation. That was how maintained RM value.

If we followed DSAI, borrow IMF, Malaysia will surrender its RM sovereignty to a foreign body. IMF will bail out the country, but RM will no longer ours to control. See the € now. Its more of Germany dominating currency against Greece, Spain, Ireland, Italy, Cyprus. Those countries kna tibai with Germany. Why Germany ok, the rest KO? Germany is a net exporter. IT makes stuff people want to buy. VW AG, BMW AG, Merc AG, all from Germany. China also want German cars don't want some Cherry.

The problem with not borrowing from IMF: our RM reserves was wiped out. More like the Forex speculation Malaysia was happily doing before got wiped off. IMF, and matsalleh say currency pegging is cheating. Actually it is sort of cheating. That time RM was pegged to USD at rate of 1USD: RM4, then lowered to RM 3.8, then RM3.5. After that we pegged to Renmibi. That is why now you see we have better currency to USD/GBP. I went to UK at a time when £1 was RM 7.2. Now it is RM 4.7. Before crisis it was RM 3.8 (best). How is this pegging possible? By controlling outflow of RM. That is why, if you got kids studying overseas, you want to hantar more than RM10k, need to get Bank Negara approval.

I suspect that the US/UK currency will devalue more and Malaysia will remain relatively stable with China. The matsalehs UK/EU/US cannot do anything with China. China allows daily currency trade. At the end of the day, the currency resets to a rate determined by the central bank. Also, China already bought USD 20 trillion of US bonds, at least. That time when USD was before crisis. That Meryl Lynch, Lehman Brothers crisis. Now, China is buying up all the gold it can get. Your wedding ring included. Last I read, China has the 6th highest gold reserves in the world. 1st - still US. Within 20 years, the gold reserves should be on par or surpass US.

So, how is this related to cars?
A lot. RM strength determines how much you pay for the overseas car. Will not matter a thing if you buy Proton. Its local, so foreign exchange means nothing. A stronger RM will allow Proton to source parts at a cheaper price based on exchange rates. Higher RM value=cheaper BMW. Recently, Japan devalued its Yen because its car, even PS3/Nintendo cost too much to make in Japan for it to make a profit overseas. This was allowed by the G8 which Japan was in. Japan purposely devalued its currency in order to make its exports more attractive. If not, it cannot compete with Koreans/China. What does this mean to the Jap people, they noticed that in order to stay competitive, take a currency hit. So making currency worth less, means they need more Yen to import that BMW. Also, the cost of daily goods goes up, if its imported.

So before you hentam the gomen, say UK cheap cars. UK people are paying the price for free trade. The rich people in UK are not affected. Even middle class, slightly affected. Those poor people in UK are worse hit. Oh, about that 70% tax thing. That is just a method used to balanced the prices. Rakyat dok complain memanjang, nanti gomen buat like UK terus ada yang kecut perut. Put GST, let petrol prices be determined by market value. Soon, you will need insurance to enter hospital in Malaysia. Malaysia has one of the best healthcare in the world. Go google UN report. In 2015, there will be no places for Doctors. No automatic places. Need to take test. We have reached developed world status on Doctor:population ratio.

The well off will be ok. The middle class will become the just above poverty level, and those worse off will be merempat if the gomen totally lepas tangan like UK/US. Not subsidising eggs, flour, oil, and essential foods.

This is not my view. This is the world economy.

This post has been edited by mystvearn: May 8 2013, 11:48 AM

Best solution, no car tax, but continue petrol subsidy. However, it this happens, Malaysians will go buy cars, extra cars. Put all those cars on the road. Jam like Brazil-11 hour commute. The gomen go devalue currency so that our goods laku abroad. The problem with this is that the public need to pay more for cars. When £ was highest to RM, just before crisis, VW Golf GTI cost about £18k new. Now it cost £25-28k. Inflation alone is not enough to make the price jump £7k. This is the £ jatuh value. At current rate, people will not buy hybrids, because the lifespan of the car is not enough to justify the fuel cost. Even Accord 2.0 vs 2.4 same. Why pay RM30k extra, what basically is the same car. Might as well use as petrol. That is why that Inspira tagline, 2smart drivers get it" or something like that is true. RM20k is good amount of petrol for 5 years.

Example: If you make one baju cap ayam at RM10, you sell it RM 20 Malaysia. Cost to sell it overseas is RM25 (for mass produced item). That baju comes to UK is £5+. That same baju to be made in UK is £10 (why £10? Because they have to pay local labour rate), come here, cost of shipping and selling overseas is £12. Come to Malaysia, that £12 is about RM60.

Frugal buyer will choose the RM20 shirt. Unless super rich or idiot, no one will want to buy a RM60 shirt just because "Made in the UK". In order to be good, UK needs to make stuff people want. Jaguars, Aston Martin, LandRover, these are stuff people want to buy.


Every country exploits something in order to stay competitive. UK = £ value (highest currency currently in the world). China = cheap labour (not really now. They also go subcon Myanmar, Vietnam people to do the job). China controls 95% of rare earth material prices. US = Political strategy and the fact that trading internationally needs to be in USD even though not between US unless got MOU between countries. Malaysia exploits labour market. Those Bangla Nasional and co are willing to do jobs Malaysians don't want. Malaysia is a net exporter of semiconductor products. We are a net importer of food products. Currently, Intel CPU worth more than rice the same amount weight to weight with uncooked rice. Even though the effort to tanam and tuai padi is actually more compared to just pressing buttons at Intel factory. As long as what we produce is wanted overseas, Malaysia will remain solvent.

CKD cars is just a stop-gap measure because Proton not doing that well. If tomorrow, everyone decides to buy Proton and say "Tak Nak" to foreign brands then those CKD workers will be working as part of supply chain to Proton. Back to economics/world news, if you read in paper, China-Japan got fighting for some small island in the middle of ocean. Both say theirs. Problem for Japan is that, unlike the 1990's, China is the dominant player here. Japan sells cars to China. Chinese people riot (can read news), they see a Honda, they torch it. The see a Toyota they vandalise it. To the point Jap gomen need to make peace with China and say please buy back our cars.

Come back to Malaysia, the moment Malaysian do/say something, Malaysians will automatically say this guy tak boleh pakai and will percaya that overseas expert/product.

CKD provide jobs to people. Also, compared to CBU, you can import more parts in the same ship because parts are stacked closely. You cannot stack CBU cars like tetris in container ship. Each car must go in a container box. Most can fit a 40 foot box is 2 or 3 (if you are buying smart cars). If 20 container boxes = 40 CBU cars. It will be better to fit 20 containers with car parts. You will get more than 40 car parts.

Also, even though you see got lots of red tape to open business in Malaysia, those are just on paper. The gomen got "gentleman's agreement" with companies. One of the reason Intel, AMD, Hybrid cars, CKD cars, AC shops, WD HDD setup shop here is that the gomen give good deal. You make kilang here, we don't tax your business 10 years or so. Janji you take local workers. Najib wants to make Malaysia Hybrid car hub. After the gomen screwed in inviting VW and making Malaysia the CKD hub like Thai/Indon. Hybrid is the only thing left. The only player still thinking to setup shop is Toyota. Honda already has started building its Hybrid factory here. Surely Honda got good deal from Gomen. Also, looking at the car market sector, Honda wants to remain a serious player in the <RM170k car category after Proton. That "agreement" is approved by Bank Negara. If not approve, they will tell MITI and MOF. Bank Negara on its own will not issue statements unless the Menteri of those two Kementerian seriously damage the Malaysia economy by issuing irresponsible statements. Hopefully someone competent remains at MITI and MOF. Dato' Pa was a good working politician previously. Not sure who will take over. Bank Negara needs to think about people's livelihood. THEY are the unsung heroes of Malaysia. It is like medcine, the surgeon gets the glory for the operation. Unknown to many people, it is actually the Anaesthetist who should be congratulated. Surgeon only know how to slice here/there, any mistake, the anaesthetist need to come in and save their ass. Then surgeon get credit. Ini memang lembu punya susu, sapi dapat nama.

Who knows why Toyota don't want to make kilang here yet. My only speculation, their more advanced hybrid system is more sensitive to our climate. That is why until now, people are still pessimistic about hybrids. Regardless of how good the battery system is, it has a operating temperature range. Too high and it will degrade. That is why some hybrids now have passive or active cooling system. Either use the car AC to cool the battery while running or the hybrid has its own cooling system. Smart car buyers will not buy Hybrid. Only reason people buy the CR-Z is for the looks. If honda makes a petrol version of that car, no one cares the hybrid version. Smart buyers will get diesel or direct force injection + turbocharger to get more power from a smaller CC engine.

The Toyota 86 is a good car, but that boxer engine is slightly flawed. After 2k rpm, the power is less between 2-3k rpm. Toyota already planning a better version engine of that car next year onwards. CVT cures this by the adjustable belt in the gears. VW/BMW on the other hand thinks that placing 9 gears in a car is the best solution. Either way, all want to maximise the best engine capacity at the given RPM. My personal view is that CVT is ultimately better as it is cheaper, lighter with fewer moving parts. The less moving parts in the car the better. Having 9 gears with auto gear jumps/skipping gears is a potential disaster for start/stop traffic. That is why you see those DSG boxes fried in traffic jams. Only problem with CVT is the rubber band effect. You tekan, nothing happens, then a lot happens. User feels disconnected unlike cars with proper gears. This is just down to not being familiar with the CVT.

WALL OF TEXT I like that idea.

Next time someone wants to bash proton or want cheap cars, tell them it ain't gonna happen regardless who is in power. Nowdays, countries with pegged currencies will not allow its currency to be higher value than it is worth. Lower value yes. It means that we produce goods when sell international, our goods will be more attractive. The lower the currency value, the more people buy from that country because good value for money. When people buy from that country, people in that country have jobs, got income-productivity. Better than those without jobs doing nothing but got higher currency. That is why a lot of people in so called mat salleh country are on benefits.

In long term future, all world currencies will be pegged and not freely trade. Sure, you can buy it at forex shop, but the amount you buy is insignificant to the amount needed for money speculation. Some countries like Cuba are even more extreme. You can only buy their currency at Cuba. Before you leave Cuba, you need to exchange all back into USD.

The only time you will see a new BMW cost RM150k is in your dreams or when GST, free and taxed petrol prices, privatised healthcare happens. Then cars will be cheap. Those who benefit most will be the rich cause they get to buy that RM150k BMW and still afford the petrol that goes into the cars. GST to them is just some number. BTW, Hybrids will remain tax free forever. Once you exclude tax, ask people to setup shop here, then you are allowing them that benefit which they don't want to let go. Hybrid cars are insignificant as the amount is smaller compared to normal non-hybrid cars. Same like BR1M. Will continue on forever. Once people get it, hard to let go. Regardless of which gomen in charge.

BTW in UK, car insurance is so expensive. Ask anyone here. Sometimes insurance alone is more than that the car. It is normal for bangar car cost £400, but insured a year at £700+. Also over there car insurance is driver based, not vehicle based like over here. My brother cannot simply drive my car unless he has premium coverage insurance which allows any cars. Only I can drive my own car.

If GST is implemented, you will see people who are very poor off will go to supermarket, put items in bag, at checkout counter, after total items are counted for, they will return one or two items which they can't afford just to be able to pay for the items. Unless of course, the GST is implemented directly onto the items (before checkout counter) then you will see that your RM 100 is only enough for 10 kg of rice.

So, best forget whatever Rafizi is saying for now about that 70% reduction in 5 years. Will not happen because it will destabilise new and used car market and people who are frugal (which is all malaysians. Study made shows Malaysians are the most frugal people in the world-read in Malaysianinsider), they will not buy cars either new or used. Why buy car this year, I might as well wait 5 years. I get even cheaper cars. It has happened before. After Persona launched, and just before NAP announcement. People were holding back buying cars -across the range just to see how cheaper cars will be. In the end, you only get between RM2-5k discount, dependent on make. People actually bought less.

This post has been edited by mystvearn: May 8 2013, 02:22 PM

Forgot to mention that the current RM pegged value now is the best. If too low, like after first economic crisis, normal people can't afford stuff. If too high people will not buy Malaysian stuff on the international market.

Also, this malay proverb is very true. "Bukan senang nak hidup senang".

I see this BBC documentary. Chinese citizens don't like taking loans to buy car/house. <5% of the population take loans. The BBC documentary followed this farmer, wanting to buy a car. Saved money for more than 10 years to buy a car. When the documentary followed this family, they were 3 months reaching their goal to buy car outright. If you buy a car/house with loan, the first few years of the ownership is used to pay loan. You take loan at RM90k for RM 75k car for 9 years. The first 5 years is used to payback the loan difference of RM15k. So you happily pay that RM700 not knowing that the car is not at all yours. Same with property. Let's say that within 9 years you get better salary, then want to pay off full amount hutang to bank. Bank will allow you to do so, but will have penalty. This penalty is because they no longer can get that RM700 from you monthly.

So if possible don't take loan, buy outright. You will be richer in the process.

This post has been edited by mystvearn: May 8 2013, 03:02 PM

That is why I don't like to talk so much on F&F or I start to write non-stop:lol:

GST for goods. AFAIK, cars are not classified as GST. Your susu segar, ayamas nugget, intel CPU is. 6% GST on cars is insane. BN Gomen not that stupid knowing that car prices was one reason PR won a lot of seats.

The problem with buying cars is that, unless necessary don't buy a car. That same principle with laptops/pc parts. Only buy when absolute necessary. If you are a frugal person, you will not care what brand is on offer and buy any car. For laptops, this can easily be done. Why buy that Vaio, if Toshiba has the same specs with less price. Unfortunately for cars you need to factor resale value, SC, cost of onwership etc into it so it is not really clear cut. However, a current Kia K5 has about the same gadgets as a Merc W221. In some cases more. LED's, reverse camera were not available then. Technology from more expensive cars will trickle down to everyday cars as times goes on. So if you want to buy a NEW car for the max lifespan, best resale value, easiest to find spare parts, always go for a car which was just recently announced and not a FL. the FL will be better than the original model, and fixed the problems, but you know that your car will be the "current" model for the last 2 years compared to the original model which is the "current" car for 4 years. Can get new spare parts and not some kereta potong.

Unless of course you are buying a proton. FL is actually the best model to get, and the Preve hatchback too, cause they fixed all the problems in original model Also, Proton models last for at least 7 years between refresh, so it will be "current" for a long time. The best Satria is the newest satria model, got R3 bits on it. Best saga, is the FLX+. For perodua, don't bother. It is just the same car regardless of the word: special, limited, race, sports, used on the back. It will not change anything, though some people say that the sports edition is better than the stock model because it got spoiler and spoilers are used on sports cars:lol:

Because we live in bolehland, we are stuck with proton. Either you like it or not, Proton is there. Those who don't care, will just get that inspira, while those who hate, will go with a Vios tin kosong spec because that T badge = god mode in Quake 3 The good thing about boycotting protons now is that the cars are actually getting better. More like they are forced to get better to regain market share.

I think I should sleep now before I merapu some more. Well, TS said wanted serious discussion, so my serious part already over. Cannot contribute more.

It will change, but very subtle, very slowly. Not RM10k/year difference. Those used car salesman will all bankrupt if you do that. RM5k/year at most. Even then used car salesman will tension. RM5k/year cheaper = RM5k lost per car. Now times 10 cars same make, RM10k gone like that. Unless of course, gomen decide, to remove tax altogether like hybrid-which is unlikely.

Correct. Mybad. There is where "brand recognition" comes into play. If not everyone will get a cherry over a honda cause better specs. I personally had not have a laptop die under my watch. Dell/Asus/Toshiba. Also, if you buy the cheapest laptop with poor spec there is a higher chance they use cheaper components. Same with PC. Buy cheaper stuff components usually mean poor capacitors regardless that cap ayam motherboard can accept a i7 cpu.

Jap cars tend to be over-engineered which each new generation. That is why fewer upgrades come FL time. Conti cars different. The actually have better stuff which they can give as standard but offer it as optional. When FL come, they give stanrd. Seems like there is a minimum set amount of upgrades regardless of FL or not.

Sorry. Not that kind of over-engineered. Japs like to give a lot into the new model, then settle for minor FL updates. Then give more effort in the next model, and minor FL updates. That what I meant by over-engineered. Too much emphasize on new model and relax for FL. Ford also follows this kind of model.

Germans give same amount of effort every time so there is significant improvement over previous model FL or not. Most improvement seems to be coming from VW AG rather than BMW/Merc. VW with its cunning modular platform series build cars like building lego. So their turnover rate is quite fast. They can afford that turnover rate.

Read more here:
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/drive/a...il-of-carmakers

Meanwhile in Malaysia:
Perodua...nvm
Proton, give a lot of effort, then public buy, public complain, then FL is better. If FL settles all or most issues (public no longer complain), all other FL's are just minor updates just to make it look fresh until about 7 years for next model. The best thing about having local car company is that, public can complain (which they are entitled to) and it will reach proton directly or indirectly. Problem with overseas cars, not that much. Export-centric countries like Japan/German actually need to rely on global public complain, then only settle issues or they find problems themselves through continuous wear and tear usage.

Very simple example is the rims on the original Satria Neo. Those turbine rims. It looked cool to the designers when it first came out. In fact, I have a sneaky feeling the designer played to much Need For Speed Underground with those rims on the car Those rims were later dropped for a more conventional design. Also, the Savvy rear design. That "V" shape thing at the logo. That was latter drop as public did not like it. Gen2 rear seats, cannot fit in tall adults with SN front seats which are also the same. Solution. Persona, and making the seat base lower in the SN.

The take home point here is, if someone promise to abolish all tax, stop and think about it. How will he/she balance the books. I'm not saying it cannot be done. It can be done if on corruption and actually persecuting those involved, but whichever gomen needs to be super efficient in doing so-which is possible. At my estimates, corruption vs tax abolish, the gomen is about RM 200 mil short of funding tax free cars as well as maintaining current subsidised items. I'd rather have cheaper petrol than cheaper car. Cars devalue with price. Petrol nope. It means that with I can drive like I please and not be obsessed with MPG. Well, if they get back all the illegal outflow, then problem solved. A better method is actually to leave that 70% tax for Lambos, Porches, Veyrons-those supercars or cars with big engine displacement or more than 3.5L. Though engine displacement is flawed formula. Better still tax cars based on how fast it gets from 0-100 km. Cars <5 secs 0 to 100 will be taxed 300%. So you know that the super rich are helping subsidise your Telur Gred A.

I favour the super rich being taxed more. Its a win-win situation. Not like Brazil where the rich and poor live side by side. The Finland model is better. The more balance you get, the more compassionate/caring the society is amongs each other.

This post has been edited by mystvearn: May 9 2013, 12:55 PM

Yes, unless the BN government wakes up soon, by the next 3 GE, they can forget about ruling. Why 3GE and not next GE, the king-maker is Taib Mahmud. I don't see Sarawak fall into opposition hands any time soon. In order for PR to win, they need to overcome the gerrymandering. BN needs to have less than 40% popular vote before you can actually see anything.

More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering#Malaysia

Maybach? Nvm, already defunct Also, here is another problem. Best method so far is by emissions. However, those kampung people with their 120Y cannot afford to replace their cars. Need to think about that one. At least in UK, they overcome this by excluding tax for cars 25 years or more. As cars which are 25 years or more are considered classic and pay a standard tax rate which is a lot cheaper.

Yes, that method is best. So you tax cars and people by income bracket. You cannot put 55% income tax across the board. 55% of RM3k is different compared to RM3mil income. Sure you get more from 3 mil, but 55% that guy on 3 mil can still eat Jenahak and Salmon everyday.

NCAP cannot be used for tax as cheap cars are usually poorer equipped and have poor body rigidity. Saga only 2 airbag, so will be higher in tax than some Volvo with its pedestrian airbag, lane departure warning and auto brake application. You can limit a baseline car of what to expect. Meaning, if no airbag, tax 50%, but by doing so, you will also increase the base car price across the board. There is no problem with this method. However, it can only be done once Malaysians value their live. If Passengers all wear seatbelt then can be done. If not, forget it. If there is no drive from the public the gomen will not implement. I'm still not sure if you still kena saman or not of not wearing rear seatbelts?

When mandatory airbags for new cars was introduced, car makers complain need to charge RM3k more for airbag. Now all settled. Truth is, car makers want to make most profit with least amount of stuff. That is why the vios tin milo edition is still selling very well. Actually it cost lest to put airbag than that especially if you are a huge car manufacturer that buys in bulk. Good thing is that, people are now getting picky with their cars. Those who don't want a Preve CFE (c-segment) are happy with their Kia Rio/Ford Fiesta (b-segment) car. Smaller car, similar price-better brand, better fit and finish. Proton is heading for trouble if do not see this. The trend now is actually small luxury rather than big luxury car. Fiat 500, mini cooper are selling well because they are small and sort of luxurious. Price/car size no longer holds true in future. At the end of the day, unless you use your D-segment Camry's rear seat all the time, chances are the rear seats are in great condition, as most of the time the car is used for getting to work. The only time you will need a big car is balik kg with those kuih raya and a trip to IKEA. If you have family, then yes you will use the rear seats more often. Even then for a working family with 2 kids <12 years, with 2 cars, is better to get an A-segment and C-segment car. The A-segment is the one you use everyday. C-segment only for balik kg, supermarket. Those who can't afford 2 cars, are better off with settling with a B-segment car. Those who can afford may also want the same cars. Husband and wife edition ford fiesta. Can be done. Not sure why it has not been done. My wife and I both use SGS2 (different colours) D-segment cars are unnecessary now especially the general trend with each car generation is to grow bigger in size. The only use I can find a D-segment car is to impose yourself onto others. You'd be surprise that people are more willing to give way when they see a D-segment car going fast on highway. Also, another reason of using a D-segment car is to show to others I'm rich.

This post has been edited by mystvearn: May 9 2013, 02:34 PM

Sorry about that.

Samsung Galaxy S2 phone

Good points there. I favour the tax by car price category. That way the rich are forced to pay more and subsidies remain. Lift taxes for <RM150k, Increase taxes for cars above RM500k to 300%. Retain for the RM200k-500k. This is a socialist move, however I doubt it will happen cause the policy makers don't want to be poorer in the process of helping the poor. They would rather have the middle class be poorer to help the poor. That is why an undergraduate now in urban areas earning RM2.5-3k/month are the most poorest in the country. Cannot get BR1M, cannot qualify for cheap house schemes. Also, got that PTPTN to pay off.

Currently though, under the Najib, subsides are less of his priority and is more catered to the rich. Unlike PM's before him. You have the 1MDB and that Iskandar region. That iskandar region is the only reason why BN lost in Johor. Normal Malaysians cannot afford to stay there. I'd rather have something like Pantai Dalam housing area rather than making some Monaco in Johor where foreigners invade and buy up land. Locals look on and become kuli to those rich people. The effect will not be seen now, but in the next 10-20 years. I understand why he is doing this:in order to attract foreign investment and people stay here. The problem is, those rich people will pay the least amount needed just to stay here, then rip the country to shreds. Their money is still in offshore accounts.

Like I said before, if you hutang people in your own currency you cannot go bankrupt. If I want to buy car with mystvearn currency, I cannot go bankrupt. I just print more notes. Unfortunately, if you hutang people with their currency, your screwed.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-08/g...aysia-bond.html

The problem for the BN gomen now is that:
1. It is not popular. The rich kid becomes the Ketua tingkatan, but people don't like. The good thing about this time is that, the Ketua Tingkatan knows it is not popular, unlike before going around with keris and frogs.

2. It has to keep on giving BR1M and all those aids - which is good but does not solve anything, especially if you make GST. Sure gomen gives aid, but then it is taken away with GST, AES etc. Once you give something, no way you can get it back. Same with hybrid-free tax.

3. It has to adopt the PR's jingga book strategy just to remain relevant. So, I actually think come budget end of the year, there are goodies for cars. So if you can hold off buying cars, just hold off for now. I think partial tax lifts will be done. If not, they still promised to remove that 20-30% tax. Don't expect the Preve to be cheaper by RM20k overnight. Not going to happen. Though, VWs can be more expensive by RM30k overnight

I think there is nothing left to cover under this topic the TS mentioned. Only thing left is to wait and see until budget 2013. Good thing about this generation is that, even though you forget stuff, stuff are easily accessed. No need to go through newspaper clippings to find stuff. Google alone can solve that. People will hold the gomen to its manifesto word for word.

Iskandar is a disaster for locals. Before Iskandar, Singaporeans already buying up houses at JB so price goes up. Locals cannot buy houses down south. Iskandar only accelerates the problem. Aside from houses, food also goes up in that area. Friends in JB say SG is taking over JB. Their money is big. So over here they can live like millionaires, drive on PLUS highway at 180km and get cheaper fuel as well.

That is why I do not agree with Najib and what he is doing. He is trying to Londonise KL with that Tun Razak commercial centre thing, also trying to Monaco Johor with Iskandar.

GST takes from everyone, but the poor will feel the most. Actually, the rich pay less than the poor for their food. People who are rich can afford bulk. If rich and in management sector, you will be invited to dinner, kenduri here there, rasmi this and that. Also get saguhati while doing it. If don't like that saguhati, wrap it up, give it as wedding gift to someone else.

I hate GST. Hated it when it was 17.5% and hate it even more when it is 20% (in UK). 2 years ago, just before the VAT goes from 17.5 to 20% beginning 2012, the Christmas sale was "Beat the VAT". So that time you see people make huge purchases to beat it like household items to get it cheaper. Used to it, yes-nothing you can do.

Yes, we are definitely out of topic, but it is necessary. In order to understand car prices, you need to understand the economy-which is what we are doing now

I'm taking a break from replying

A bit too much I think

Hope it helps explain about car prices. If anyone ask just give them that.

Feel free to do so. Sorry if got minor errors. I think I covered the major parts



Credit has to be given to my socialist friend when I was in UK. I was also ignorant about this. After talking to this guy few hours over the space of 3 years, then I manage to get my head around this currency thing. Another thing about currency to remember is, it is based on something-usually gold. Currency was invented because people got fedup of barter trade, which is not practical. I want A's wheat, B's rice, C's woods. I got a cow. Slightly hard to divide that. So currency was invented. However, barter trade is sort of making a comeback in Greece (which in the € zone) as they have no € to spend.
Read more here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/0...-poverty-crisis

You cannot say German asses worth more than Greece asses as they use the same currency. The problem with Greece, olive oil/fruits/tourism is not as expensive as that BMW
Trade is essential, if no trade is done, society will just collapse and go back to the prehistoric age. No one can do everything by themselves.

Actually a NEP that target the extreme poor across all races will help. Then tax breaks based on income structre. More income = no tax break, low income more tax break in phases. As it currently stands, undergraduate students are the poorest people in urban areas. RM2.5k does not qualify for cheap housing etc as not considered "poor".

I don't mind GST/Petrol prices going up so that Thais/SG don't "steal" stuff here, and bring back there. The only problem, assistance needs to be given to Malaysians so that they are not that effected. BR1M is one method. Only Malaysians can get it. You cannot introduce GST/Petrol prices without figuring what will happen to the extreme poor. Bank Negara should have/had run simulations by now if the scenario does happen.

Unfortunately, I can only talk here. Talk is cheap. I am not in a position where my actions can affect outcomes. People higher up of the society must be doing this.


Budget? Super cheap would be a used Kenari. Sorry, I missed this reply.

Sorry, I was busy driving outstation yesterday. Still outstation today. Just got online. Poor net reception here. Hotel also no free wifi. What budget you have in mind? What kind of car?

Will be doing long distance driving tomorrow also. If no reply = busy moving around.

kadajawi will reply on my behalf
Or dares
or sleepwalker
Or anyone else

Or you could make a proper thread with the requirements you want. In order for this thread to stay on topic. Also, I don't know everything

I thought thread was dead

Like I said previously, it ain't gonna happen. PR wants to remove 70% over 5 years. I cannot agree with Rafizi on this. I go as far to say that it is madness to insane. That is suicidal to used car salesman and car owners. Even if you remove RM5k/year for RM100k car already suicidal for used car salesman. Lets say car X is RM95k next year, but used car salesman already bought it at RM50k. Now need to wipe out another RM5k from selling price of lets say was supposed to be RM60k. Now need to sell RM55k. Of course used car salesman still can make profit, but margins will be very tight.

Lets say you know the price will be cheaper 70% over the next 5 years like PR's manifesto, so a RM300k Mitsu Evo will cost about RM100k, people without cars will buy used cars just to cover the 5 years, then buy that RM100k evo People with new cars will keep on using their cars, come time to sell, they also tension bought RM300k, loan 80%, 5 years their car is worth RM80k. If sell more than RM 100k, no one wants to buy, cause why buy used car since new car worth only RM100k. To make matters worse, new car salesman also pening kepala because very few people will buy new cars. In fact, I can only see people all buying new Perodua/Proton while waiting the price to drop to afford that Merc.

People don't understand that, if you want cheaper car prices everyone who owns a car will suffer. those with outstanding loan/continuing will be hardest hit. You buy Honda civic also cannot guarantee can get higher resale value. People who untung are those doing undergrad now getting free car from parents. After 5 years study, keluar2 dapat beli kereta murah.

Since gomen now under pressure to remove that 30% like in their manifesto, I will not buy a car now until I hear the budget 2013 which is around Sept-Nov. Might as well borrow other people's car or use parents car. If I can save RM5k if buying a car next year, I might as well do that. If confirm 30% remove over 5 years, then a RM75k car will be about RM50k at the end of 5 years. Instant devaluation of car. Now, if that was the case, I might as well borrow my parent's car until after that 30% is removed-just to minimise the loss suffered-if I am the kemut type, want to save money. I doubt many people will be that ultra conservative, though people with cars now, will just keep their cars for 5 years more, just to get a better car later. So, if I buy a RM75k car today, want to sell it some 5 years on, I may be selling it at RM30k. So, RM45k lost in 5 years. That is a lot to loose for resale value. Assuming I can sell for RM30k (RM20k less than new car-which after 5 years is unlikely). All cars, regardless of high RV or not will have resale value like Volvo (or worse) after 5 years ownership. The moment gomen announce the budget cut for cars, people will stop buying cars until they see price reduction. Car salesman new/used will tension. People who want to sell cars also will tension, knowing that they need to knock off certain % from their cars. People who have no car/loan will say, "bitter pill need to swallow so that people can get better cars". I'm sorry, but you are an idiot. You don't have car/loan, no problem la. People who have cars/loan, who use current cars as a finance method for a new cars will all suffer. Want to talk big, come back when you can pay me the amount I loose on the car. Imagine a 90% loan for a RM75k car, only to see that your loan is worth more than the car itself after 2 years. Madness. It is not like the loan will automatically go down following the new car prices yearly.

That is why, I have to agree with gomen on this. You need to look at the big picture. I also suspect Bank Negara already have this scenario I just described simulated. Next 5 years, if PR want to go announce a 70% cut in 5 years, then might s well comment them say-ini gila punya kerja. You see what happen to Venezuela. Sure Hugo Chavez, a socialist made the country have the most balanced pay structure, in the process, cripple the country's output. HC say to multinational car company-say must sell cars cheaper so that people can afford. They are too reliant on oil now compared to before he took power. Read more below.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20795781

Actually HC has good intentions, the problem is the whole world is playing capitalist (even Cuba and North Korea), but he is the only person seems to be playing socialist. Will not work. If whole world like socialist, can.

Sorry if I very blunt/kasar bahasa, but there comes a point when people need to understand drastic price reduction over short amount of time = is not healthy for the economy on all scales. Actually the worse off is not the super rich. Sure they loose more, but they can afford more. People who don't actually need a loan to buy a car are not that affected. Normal people like us who buy the <200k car, who use their current car as downpayment for new car and those with 90% loan are worse affected. Forget buying T, H for high RV, all will have low RV.

I really hope those PR politicians/those connected are reading this, and can start to be sensible for a change. If you know them, please show this thread. I'd be happy to discuss more. I think I covered all points. Personally, I want to see cheaper car price, but I don't want to foot the bill which is unlikely since I need/have a car. In fact, I'd go as far as say 30% over 10 years is better. Or, 70% over the space of 25 years. That way, at the end you will get cheaper car price, but since it is so gradual, the car devaluation will not be felt immediately. I don't think someone is willing to use their car for 25 years just to get a 70% tax discount. Though I might be wrong

Now, another important point to note is that, even gomen announce removal of tax in stages, there is no guarantee that car makers will price their cars lower. When NAP was announced/ino effect, PM had to actually tell car makers after few months, you must price your car lower. That is the problem with any reduction, severe or not. Mitsu will be happy sticking to that RM300k price rather than offer it at RM100k immediately after tax removed. Surely some desperate person will still buy that RM300K evo. Can make RM200k untung. Car salesman will be millionaires

If people still berkeras about that 70% car price, then does not understand how it will impact them, or does understand but not affected by it (generasi muda). They are the ones who will gain the most, at the expense of other people who owns a car.

This post has been edited by mystvearn: Jun 1 2013, 07:42 AM

Sorry, I actually missed this reply.

I agree with you. Not everyone will feel the pain and not everyone will agree with me also. Even those with outstanding loan may not feel the pain. My bad for not putting the caveat in there. I support 100% tax removal over a couple of years. I still do not support 20% removal of tax in a year. Today I read Proton announced 10% reduction in price tomorrow. Is this true?
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/232914

Yes, everyone will benefit from lower price point. No question there. Even I will benefit. Only problem not everyone will be willing to stomach it head on. There will be people cursing themselves for finalising car payment today, only that 10% knocked out of price of Proton tomorrow. They will have to accept that, either they like it or not. So their 90% loan now = 100% loan.

Nope. Cars have always been used as a financial tool in the purchase of new cars. Except of course if the car is totalled. Easy point-just look at F&F forums, you will always see the RV thread pop-up from time to time. Even rich people use it. As long as there are stuff which can be resold on, people will resell it. Notice in international car reviews like whatcar/topgear/etc, people always mention "resale value". That RV is something whether you like it/care about it or not is a different matter. Lets say you don't care about RV, but time to sell your own car, you too will be hoping it gets a high price, so that you can use the income on other stuff.

Another example is the games industry. You see people get mad at Microsoft for not allowing used game sales. There are gamers who buy games by cashing in on their old games. Only problem with that is that Steam has made "digital selling" once owning/used the game kind of impossible. Then again, games are cheap enough that people can forgive to not see the RV. Also, there are some people who think that games should be treated like going to the cinema. You cannot sell back the ticket. You are getting an "experience" from going to the cinema. I myself fall in the earlier camp. Only buy games on steam <$10 and used PS3 games <£10 and only watch movies when it comes out on Astro/on the plane. Also will sale games back on ebay. Usually I am able to sell back at same price or slightly higher which is very good as technically I play games for free. I will not go to the cinema just to "see it early"-unless being invited by other people to go see. A year down, you can get Bluray versions cheap or just borrow from other people. So what if other people are talking about it and I'm out of the loop. Not a problem here. At the end of the day, if I go to cinema, need to spend money on transport, pay to watch and spend money on other stuff at the cinema. Does not change a single thing that you still get to watch movie at home/cinema. Want cinema experience? Get a projector, turn volume to deafening levels, sit in dark at home.

One thing people forget is that a car is an expenditure, it is not an investment. RV exists because people think a car is an investment. Well if you buy rare cars then yes. Some rare cars like the Ferrari 250GTO increases in price by quite a lot. So yes, you can buy it, keep it and sell it off to make more cash.

On the NAP, car prices did go down, but insignificant. I did not say I did not agree on this. I did say that even though prices go down on model X, it will still increase in price in future due to inflation. Only the Golf Mk7 remains the same price with the Mk6 which is kudos to VW which manages to maintain the price and still make a profit. The reason PM had to say car makers to decrees prices are everyone selling at same market price, so you lower tax, but if everyone are still selling at that price, you make more income. The problem here is actually why carmakers do that in the first place? This is because when the gomen first announce NAP, they did not say how many % tax was removed. It would be better if the gomen not only say how many % tax but also give immediate RRP on cars after % tax removal. That way, car makers are forced to sell cheaper-because everything is transparent. Going forward, I really hope gomen will come clean say we remove x% and this is the RRP car makers should sell cars after tax removal.

On the frustration bit, I actually have never bought a car in my entire life Motorbike yes (Modenas Kriss only), car, nope. I am thinking of other people. I actually am like the young undergrad you bring in 70% today, I will benefit instantly..even though people my age should have 3 kids by now . That is not said, I have not driven cars. I have been given cars to drive either by person/company and also maintain other people's cars. If I need a car, I rent. I benefit from having a 4 km workplace which I can commute by motor. In 5 mins I am in my office. Using a car will take 15 mins and that is just after parking. I dread that by the end of the year, I will need to make my first car purchase due to growing family. Good thing is that Proton already announce 10% discount, so can use that extra money to buy a new gaming rig to go with my DFGT. Only problem I face now is that, can I hold on until next year to see more price drops, after Bajet 2013 and get a 2014 car. That is my personal problem and due to the retard system we have in Malaysia, a 1st January 2014 car will have higher RV compared to a 31st Dec 2013 car. Safe to say, if you buy a car Oct>> and don't get discount, find agent that will give you discount. I cannot say I don't care about RV, but it exists and if I can get the most out of a car then yes.

Or maybe, since I have no experience on having any sort of loan over my head, then I may be wrong about that drastic price cuts. Could be true. Then my entire point about this is wrong! I also don't work for the car industry.

On the last point, I think for some even though car prices drop across the board, people will still buy proton. As a parent, I think my kids will get a P1/P2. Cheaper car better what. Can use the money for something else. I don't think the market will change dramatically in favour for overseas marques just because price goes down across the board. This is because, P1/P2 will still be cheaper than other makes. As long as you have a cheaper item, people will go for it. If not those Tesco Value/Kedai rakyat 1 malaysia/Mydin lingkup long time ago. There will always be a market for them. Same as there is a market for people who only go to Jusco. Now if people start complaining that is disadvantage P1 get protection. Go read history on US/Jap even german and korean cars. All got protection/incentives by own government. That is fact. Gomen will always give kickbacks to these companies. These companies provide jobs. Jobs make people happy cause they can buy stuff-Politicians happy cause they can run country. If no job then become like Greece, everyday riot. I am not pro proton, but I am pro "barangan buatan malaysia"/patriotic. It just so happens that Proton has more buatan malaysia than perodua. If VW own proton, then that is another matter. Cannot be patriotic there. I see that the small way I can help is buy buying local content. I think there is where you see the frustration from. Malaysians are one weird bunch of people. The moment you have equal items, they go for overseas one because it is "imported". I have to also mention that as much as I want to support local, I will buy that Honda Future 125cc motorbike as my next upgrade, and have samsung phone because even though malaysia can make smartphone, it does not have the ecosystem to support it. Unless of course, Modenas can source a very economical engine and a space to put helmet in seat, then I see myself going to get a Honda. There are more features on that Honda/Samsung phone over Modenas and the malayisan made phone.

That is just me. I live by the principles that a car = expenditure, not investment. Also, if car X and car Y have same spec, but car X cheaper, I will go with car X. That is just being prudent. Brand recognition is a powerful tool that car manufactures are too happy to exploit. Just because you can afford something, does not mean you should buy it.

Np, I kind of like to talk lengthy about this:) Differences exists because everyone will have different opinion.

Sorry for another lengthy reply

This post has been edited by mystvearn: Jun 14 2013, 06:28 PM

On another note, just to add:

Notice that a lot of car makers release their new models around Q3-Q4 and rarely Q1-Q2.

Reason:
Die hard fans will buy the car the moment it comes out at Q3-Q4. When it comes to Q4, car makers are reluctant to lower price because of "new model".
Then those a bit sensible will wait next Q1 to get the car. It also allows people to organise their finances after viewing the car.

On the preve hatchback-though coming out after raya is bad, I don't agree. However it does fall within the Q3-Q4 logic window. I agree if its release date is delayed due to testing and training purposes. Not delayed because "some bloke" diary is full and cannot commit time to just go launch the car. Then again, to get maximise press coverage you need the presence of "these" people.