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 New tyre to the front or to the rear.., Your choice....

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sleepwalker
post Apr 1 2013, 03:33 PM

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QUOTE(BuFung @ Apr 1 2013, 12:46 PM)
another debate I would like to discuss is...  is shorter car like those B-segment really require VSC/ESP....  since a shorter car, chances of loosing the rear is lower...
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How short is short? You must calculate the wheelbase length and not the length of the whole car (including the front and rear overhangs). The wheelbase of b-segment cars are not really that much shorter than a larger C-segment. The short overhangs on the b-segment makes it look like a shorter vehicle.

A shorter wheelbase car will have less chances of losing the rear and that is correct but you have to be so so so so so so so much shorter. The only thing that comes to mind is actually the Smartfortwo. That car would have very little chances of losing the rear as it drives like a go-kart. Other B-segments cars will lose the rear just as easily when you lose control and that is where VSC/ESP/ETC/ABC/123 will come in handy (but not a guaranteed) to help stabilise the car.
sleepwalker
post Apr 1 2013, 03:44 PM

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QUOTE(kadajawi @ Apr 1 2013, 03:25 PM)
But if you put new cars at the rear, chances are the ones in front aren't exactly in good condition. Since most of the braking is also done with the front tyres... I'd rather have the best tyres in front.

Btw., the only time I ever encountered tailspin/oversteer was on snow/ice, using the handbrake. Understeer, yes. Had that before a few times. I find it quite scary, because usually there is a reason why I am steering in the first place. Like... a wall being in the way. Or the other side of the road, with cars on it. Or there is a reason why I need to brake hard... without having grip on the tyres that do most of the work...
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If the front is not in good condition, then all four should be changed. I believe that they are talking about here is in scenarios like this. You have 4 tires that is still good at 50%. You crash into a big hole and damage one of them. Since you have 4 at 50%, you can't just replace one tyre, therefore you replace 2. The question now would be where to put the 2 new tyres. This is when you put the new tyres in the rear and not the front.

You are giving a scenario like having 4 tyres at 15-25% wear left. If you bust a tyre with so little thread left on them, then it would be a better idea to change all 4. There is no need to discuss where the new tyres go since the thread levels between the tyres are so big that it would not be safe to use them either in front or rear.


sleepwalker
post Apr 1 2013, 04:27 PM

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QUOTE(kadajawi @ Apr 1 2013, 04:12 PM)
I did read in a review that cars with longer wheelbase are easier to keep going in a straight line. They are not so easily disturbed, feel more planted. That's why I wouldn't be surprised if the longer wheelbase does make the car more stable...

At least when the car is already starting to spin it should be harder to keep the short wheelbase one under control. That's what I gathered from comments about the Renault Clio V6 and Renault 5 Turbo. Especially the latter always spun... (both mid engined, rear wheel drive, lots of power and a short wheelbase).
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They are more planted in a straight line ONLY. That is why tourers with long wheel based are meant for long distance touring. The long wheel base resist the change in direction giving you stability in a straight line. That is also the problem. To change direction, you need to overcome more forces and once that happens, the additional forces makes it less stable mid corner aka in the middle of a drift.

Short wheelbase cars are more nimble and that term is used because you can easily turn a shorter wheelbase car with less resistance. This does not mean it is bad as a more nimble car is actually easier to control while changing direction.


As for any mid-engine rear wheel drive car... the MR2 started what we call the '360 Club' as anybody who drives a mid-engine rear wheel drive MR2 would have experience at least one in a lift time... turning the car 360 degrees. That's pretty normal when you put the weight of the car in the middle between the front and rear axles.
sleepwalker
post Apr 1 2013, 04:40 PM

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QUOTE(kadajawi @ Apr 1 2013, 04:25 PM)
I just asked an engineer. He says short wheelbase is easier to spin, harder to keep goin in a straight line.

"Likewise, a car may oversteer or even "spin out" if there is too much force on the front tires and not enough on the rear tires. Also, when turning there is lateral torque placed upon the tires which imparts a turning force that depends upon the length of the tire distances from the CG. Thus, in a car with a short wheelbase, the short lever arm from the CG to the rear wheel will result in a greater lateral force on the rear tire which means greater acceleration and less time for the driver to adjust and prevent a spin out or worse."
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Going up a mountain drive like Genting in a short wheelbase car is much easier and safer than a long wheelbase. You would know that if you have experienced it yourself instead of asking an engineer. The more nimble vehicle takes less effort to turn and change direction (esp in those left into right corners)and there is no hint of spinning out of control when the driver is in control.

When taken to the extreme, the snap-oversteer in a short wheelbase can be scary (that was what your engineer was trying to explain) but that would be more on the fault of the driver than car. Most snap oversteers that I have seen were due to an over enthusiastic driver entering a corner way too fast and trying to brake too late into the corner and hence unloading the rear tyres.
sleepwalker
post Apr 1 2013, 04:52 PM

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QUOTE(kadajawi @ Apr 1 2013, 04:43 PM)
Even if that is true, longer wheel base cars tend to have wider, grippier tyres.

Anyway, that means the car won't break loose as easily in a straight line, but if you are driving in a corner it is more likely to oversteer? That sounds more reasonable. But does it happen often?
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Maybe I should not use 'drifting' as an example otherwise everybody thinks that a longer wheelbase car is oversteering into every corner.

It's more about the feel of the car, something quite difficult to explain on the Internet. A longer wheelbase car is more resistant to turning. You feel that you have to work harder to make it turn and once it turns, it is more difficult to change to the opposite direction (for example if you are entering a left corner that goes into a right corner).

 

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