Our gov sux becos put high tax on imported car but Toyota more sux cos they always tend to price their car on the high side. Oh wait, it's not Toyota but UMW

i assume tax to be the same cos toyota n vw both imported car. both same 2L engine.
and u got my point.. is UMW. damn it..

the tax is the thing that cost more here becoz the GT86 is a CBU JP car and CBU japan car have higher tax compare to Asean assemble CKD Toyota cars.

Anyway even if it doest have more import tax it will still price higher here by the government lah.... since it has 2 doors means it is something super.

i wonder this sport car look alike 'sport car' can outrun some higher range sedan? like the merc e250?

This car never meant to be high power. The keyword is 'balance'. Just like AE86

i wonder this sport car look alike 'sport car' can outrun some higher range sedan? like the merc e250?

haha.. mayb it is like tat..
but when on highway. u bought a 200++k sport car.. u cant outrun a sedan! the feelin is kinda.. zzzzz

Just came back from testing the Toyota 86. Here are my thoughts for those who are interested to know.
Pre Drive Walk Around
I tested a red colour 86. Really nice colour on the car, perhaps the best in my opinion. The car is surprisingly quiet. When it pulled up, I was surprised that there wasn't any "boxer burble".

The SA then brought me on a short tour, opened the bonnet and checked out the insides. Very tidy looking. But still has loads of space in it. Clearly this car was designed for pro modders / beng modders in mind.

The rears are really really tight. Only can fit a 12 year old (maybe even 12 year olds will find it tight). But, definitely can fit an adult for a short journey, probably up Genting and back down from KL, boleh la. The front seats however, different story. Completely snug and comfortable. The support is superb for a stock seat. More on this later. The ergonomics are standard Toyota, easy to understand where all the switches are, no fancy pansy stuff. Some will say the interior is cheap, but I thought that it's acceptable quality la. Definitely not RM200k worthy. Plastic here and there, even an Altis feels nicer. But, the car is a driver focused car. The positioning of the driver is absolutely perfect. The gear lever is perfectly positioned. The view out the front windshield is very wide and clear.

The drive itself
So, after signing all the papers, it was time to get moving. Got into the driver seat, and tried to start the engine. Eh taboleh?! SA explained, press clutch and brake together, press start button. "VROOOMMMM. Burble burble burble." NAIS. (Sorry la i know this is common feature in modern cars, I poorfag can't afford expensive car before dis yo).

The reverse lever on the manual is also normal for 6 speed manuals. You have to lift a small lever around the knob, and push it towards "R" before it goes into reverse. Reverse sensors are also fairly decent. Not too sensitive. I revved it a few times, but the bunyi like tak keluar wan. Disappointed slightly. ZzzZ

The got on to the main road. The steering felt... very precise. Very very precise in fact. But not to the extent that it got jittery of it's fickle or anything. Just felt absolutely superb. Nicely weighted. The brake is also another highlight. Feels very analog, not like the modern cars which pedals feel dead. Damn nice!  But the clutch is slightly heavy i have to say. Maybe gets a bit of getting used to.

Suddenly drive drive around for 4 mins, coast is clear.  I looked at the SA. "Press can ar?". "Can, no problem."    Dropped down the gear to 2nd, and planted my foot. HOOO MAI GOOOODDD the car really can go. Rev all the way up to 7000rpm before i up shifted. The sound valve kicked in at 4000rpm and the engine note just sounds soooo sweet. Such a surprise. It doesn't scream like a Vtec, but very manly kinda "POWERRRR" shout. Definitely thumbs up. Okay. At this juncture, one short comment. The car feels sluggish at low RPM, yes - definitely can understand why a lot of commentators say that this car is underpowered. But once you hit that 4000-4200rpm mark, seriously this car can go. And I think it's because of the really light weight of the car. 200hp (170 odd on wheel) for such a light car, at this point, cukup pakai sampai puas puas imo.

Then sampai a left turn corner, brake, downshift, woot. Damn surprised. The steering feels so superb. Car goes where you wanna go, and you can aim the head of the car whichever angle you want. The seat at this point surprised me. Really holds you together well. And I think it's because of both the bucket seat like design, and the fabric of the seat as well, which grips in a light manner.

Came the second corner, went in fast again, but this time oversteer slightly, and the tail kicked out a bit, but not that much. Screeching tyres. Dem sked yo. After that drive slowly liao. LOL. I looked that the SA and said "sorry".   He said "it's okay. dat corner i drive twice faster wan usually. this car traction control will jaga you." 

After that slow drive back to the Sales Centre. Very quiet, civilized drive. Rempit sound still apparent, but very civil. So surprised. Engine bunyi maybe slightly louder than an Altis je. Once you quiet down the car, it becomes civilized too. The ride comfort, now that I've calmed down, is absolutely amazing. It's not hard, but has zero body roll around a corner. What a surprise...
Conclusion

I was really lucky to have driven the manual. Even many auto bloggers out there belum got chance. So tengkiu tengkiu Mr Au of Cheras UMW Toyota. 

I went in thinking that RM243k is overpriced, and probably no one, unless you have rich parents, would buy this car. But the car surprised me in a few ways. It's practical, parts are readily available, maintenance is priced the same as a Camry, and it's surprisingly fast. Honestly, after driving it, I'm sold... almost.

Do I think it's worth RM243k? I can imagine saying YES, if I were to own it for a week. Honestly, I can totally see it. It's easy to drive, perhaps easy to maintain, and a fun drive. But to buy this car, when there's just so many options out there decked with better equipment, I'd think thrice before putting my pen to paper. But the drive, is on a completely different level.

golf gti is ckd??

A good write up..  IMO this car is for casual driver not some hardcore modder. To bring this car to another level like turbo charging will definitely defeat the purpose of why this car being built.

Golf Gti is CBU...

For VW only new passat and polo sedan are ckd. (correct if i am wrong)

i also hope for a golf or scirocco to be CKD here.

---

Added on July 31, 2012, 1:32 pm

Indeed a very good write up about the post:
U r right bro, to mod this car definitely defeat the purpose of the original build.

I did a brief comparison between this Toyota 86 and VW Golf Gti

1) 249,000 vs 208,888
2) 200HP vs 210 HP
3) 2 Seater VS 5 Seater
4) Poor Head Unit Vs RCD510

I would say 86 is not really worth it compare to golf gti......

instead of appearance, definitely 86 are more sporty compare to golf but performance wise
i guess golf are better.........

Price is so high due to UMW
Anyway,you can't really compare it that way
It make no sense
Golf GTi is a fit all people hot hatch while FT86 is a niche market enthusiast driver's car
Beside,FT86 is 5 seaters(caveat is the back seat can't really fit a proper sized human)

What's the difference with this and the BRZ? Carry same specs diff name only? seen few mags n they claim the brz n ft have gravity point lower than ferrari 458. lol. is that even true?

Subaru sedan STi V10 2.5L Turbo ia priced the same as FT86

n a much better n faster car than 86

What's the difference with this and the BRZ? Carry same specs diff name only? seen few mags n they claim the brz n ft have gravity point lower than ferrari 458. lol. is that even true?

anyone knows whether a test drive unit is available?

I read that there's a slight difference in suspension tuning. The 86 is set up to be a little more oversteery as compared to the Subie.

Not surprised that the 86 has a lower CG than the 458 - Boxer engines have that advantage.
I'm interested to know this as well. Would love to feel how this car compares to the MX-5.
Totally agree that the pricing is retarded though. RM120-150k would probably have been a fairer price...

From my perception, I think price range from 170k to 200k is reasonable in Malaysia.

Current sport car in Malaysia and price:

Civic type R - rm199,999
Mazda rx8 - rm 228,888 or 248,888
Nissan 370z - rm358,888 or 378,888
Mitsubishi evo 10 - rm280k
Subaru wrx - rm200+++
Mazda mx5 - dunno how much alreay..

We guys know tht we Malaysia impose heavy excise duty so we dun expect cheap price on car in Malaysia especially sport car n 2 door cars..

Personally I love this car kinda much but just ht price matter as well... Exceed 50k of my expectation...

Sigh...

From my perception, I think price range from 170k to 200k is reasonable in Malaysia.

Current sport car in Malaysia and price:

Civic type R - rm199,999
Mazda rx8 - rm 228,888 or 248,888
Nissan 370z - rm358,888 or 378,888
Mitsubishi evo 10 - rm280k
Subaru wrx - rm200+++
Mazda mx5 - dunno how much alreay..

We guys know tht we Malaysia impose heavy excise duty so we dun expect cheap price on car in Malaysia especially sport car n 2 door cars..

Personally I love this car kinda much but just ht price matter as well... Exceed 50k of my expectation...

Sigh...

Your Evo X and WRX pricing kinda out

anyone knows whether a test drive unit is available?

From my perception, I think price range from 170k to 200k is reasonable in Malaysia.

Current sport car in Malaysia and price:

Civic type R - rm199,999
Mazda rx8 - rm 228,888 or 248,888
Nissan 370z - rm358,888 or 378,888
Mitsubishi evo 10 - rm300k++
Subaru wrx - rm300k ++
Mazda mx5 - dunno how much alreay..

We guys know tht we Malaysia impose heavy excise duty so we dun expect cheap price on car in Malaysia especially sport car n 2 door cars..

Personally I love this car kinda much but just ht price matter as well... Exceed 50k of my expectation...

Sigh...

i called umw...they say cheras got...
mx5 is 245k

Since mx also 245k, then I think sport car also around tht price... 86 indeed a beautiful car..

Definitely when come to sport car n at this price range ... Lots of option n more consideration to be made...

1. Financial status
2. Car purpose?
3. Any additional car at home?
4. Worth the value? Very subjective here...
5. etc?!!

  i'll get tt-s recond with the price...

Tts sounds good bro n also one of my favourite as well...

But have to consider few factor also..

1. New vs recond (car history unknown)
2. Warranty vs non warranty
3. 2011 model vs 2006 model
4. Maintenance fee..
5. Branding maybe?

Anyway no offense ya...

i called umw...they say cheras got...
mx5 is 245k

obviously you know nothing about cars. Turbo= good? lol

i'll get tt-s recond with the price...

MX-5 is 220k. RX-8 is slightly more expensive IIRC.
Alas, in this age of instant gratification, lots of people will tell you that turbo = good. Sigh...
I hope the 86 heralds a reawakening of Japanese engineering in which balance is key. It is a good start I'd say.
Maintenance bro, maintenance. I'd take a rock-solid Japanese car over a workshop-prone Conti anyday
Not to mention cheaper service costs too.
Otherwise, we'd all be driving Boxsters and Caymans (recond 2**k).

GT86=BR-Z
Minor difference only
FT86 center of gravity sure as heck is low,the whole car been packaged from the get go with that goal in mind to begin with

I read that there's a slight difference in suspension tuning. The 86 is set up to be a little more oversteery as compared to the Subie.

Not surprised that the 86 has a lower CG than the 458 - Boxer engines have that advantage.
I'm interested to know this as well. Would love to feel how this car compares to the MX-5.
Totally agree that the pricing is retarded though. RM120-150k would probably have been a fairer price...

i guess that's the only difference than. Im still looking forward to see the BRZ. 

Ft purposely followed the trueno legacy?

i wonder this sport car look alike 'sport car' can outrun some higher range sedan? like the merc e250?

A good write up..  IMO this car is for casual driver not some hardcore modder. To bring this car to another level like turbo charging will definitely defeat the purpose of why this car being built.

i called umw...they say cheras got...
mx5 is 245k

I saw a white record one at a car shop along Jln Pudu. Before anyone start saying i hate GT86. I don't really hate it. But i will tell you what i dislike about it.

- Its not a true toyota product
- Its not an correct AE86 replacement
- Its not priced correctly in Malaysia
- Too many FR fanboys who glorify its platform but deny its not faster than most FF hatches

Those are my main grouse really. 

I saw a white record one at a car shop along Jln Pudu. Before anyone start saying i hate GT86. I don't really hate it. But i will tell you what i dislike about it.

- Its not a true toyota product
- Its not an correct AE86 replacement
- Its not priced correctly in Malaysia
- Too many FR fanboys who glorify its platform but deny its not faster than most FF hatches

Those are my main grouse really. 

Well uve gotta love the car to buy the car its like buying for e.g. the celica. Agree 300% on the price part.  Enthusiast car for enthusiast buyers. Would have love to buy it cheaper but alas were in "Malaysia" land of tax and more tax.

Faster wise when compared to the price you paid for it yes power/price ratio very bad. But using it as it is id have to say its fast enough. Its not like all owners going for track days in Sepang isnt it. Always remember "safety first" dont speed and drift huhuhuhu

Overall as netmatrix said it right "You got to love it as it is" it was the same thing when i bought my celica 7 years back. It aint fast it aint great but its an overall winner to myself, same thing repeating again.

Advise to potential buyers in regards to SPEED although most of them already knows u never buy this car expecting to smoke other people with drive with BALLS of Titanium. Heck u can drive even a SKL(small little kancil modded of course) u can outrun this car.Iif you've balls size of peanuts even a preve can smoke you. In Malaysia that's how it goes from my view (BALLS SIZE)

Just my 2 cents

well i kind of agree with you. it is the same like celica when celica was in malaysia, expensive and exclusive.  but for me after doing a little bit of research this car actually have a good chasis and was built for us to modified, yes it is expensive but if u r a fan, u will find a way to fork out money to buy it. dont have to buy the new one, just get the recon ones, dun worry, now u can buy warranty for recon cars, and japaese recon cars seldomly got problem plus this gt 86 is still new and doesnt have conplicated engine compared to r35. well, im getting one soon, tp malaysia gt86 owners club macam x exist je.

It is still a very small club but you can join us here.. https://www.facebook.com/groups/616768571686080/

I just took delivery of mine last week and it is fantastic.

You sold your Impreza away to change to GT86??

Yeap. 

Congrats.  BRZ or GT86? Recond? Price?

Yeap. 

dang i never would have thought... so the fun factor of RWD (or so they say anyways, as that's the only hype for the gt86) is worth ditching the power from turbocharged AWD?

I've been driving turbos for 15 years now and yes I do miss the low end torque. The fun factor of the RWD is not what most people think it is.... it's something else altogether...

I've been learning the characteristics of the car with the traction control full on and almost every hard corner I do, the TC lights up on the dashboard telling me that the car is keeping me away from the kerb. Then there is the 'hero' mode.... or sports mode where the traction control is partially off. It lets the rear loose a little and then TC takes control to make me look like I'm doing the correction but actually just straightening out the steering without any counter steering required. Yeah.. makes me look like a hero.  Then there is full TC off which I won't even want to talk about on public roads.

What I consider as the real fun factor.. is the height (or the lack of it). What I can say is that pictures of the car does it very little justice. From pictures, most people have the Zed (350/370) or Supra in mind when comparing but when you stand next to the car you'd realise how low it is. That is the real fun factor and worth paying every penny for it. Even the Celica stands almost 2.5 inches taller. Nothing is this low at that price (except for the iconic S2K).

The low center of gravity is no hype. It's damn real and damn fun. I'm cornering it harder than my scooby and I'm getting the tingly sensation back on my fingers after a hard drive, something i haven't felt in a long while.

I've grown out of the straight line power and yes, it was worth ditching the turbocharged AWD.

I've been driving turbos for 15 years now and yes I do miss the low end torque. The fun factor of the RWD is not what most people think it is.... it's something else altogether...

I've been learning the characteristics of the car with the traction control full on and almost every hard corner I do, the TC lights up on the dashboard telling me that the car is keeping me away from the kerb. Then there is the 'hero' mode.... or sports mode where the traction control is partially off. It lets the rear loose a little and then TC takes control to make me look like I'm doing the correction but actually just straightening out the steering without any counter steering required. Yeah.. makes me look like a hero.  Then there is full TC off which I won't even want to talk about on public roads.

What I consider as the real fun factor.. is the height (or the lack of it). What I can say is that pictures of the car does it very little justice. From pictures, most people have the Zed (350/370) or Supra in mind when comparing but when you stand next to the car you'd realise how low it is. That is the real fun factor and worth paying every penny for it. Even the Celica stands almost 2.5 inches taller. Nothing is this low at that price (except for the iconic S2K).

The low center of gravity is no hype. It's damn real and damn fun. I'm cornering it harder than my scooby and I'm getting the tingly sensation back on my fingers after a hard drive, something i haven't felt in a long while.

I've grown out of the straight line power and yes, it was worth ditching the turbocharged AWD.

damn after reading your reply, you've got me a bit poisoned, as i am planning a future (5-6 years later) purchase of a Turbo AWD (WRX STI perhaps? not sure if Subaru still releasing new ones after the 2015) and it seems like i may have to rethink my direction?

the thing is, after driving NA for so long, turbo is a very tempting thing that i've always wanted to try, and yea the whole power out of the straight line when the turbo spools up is something a NA can never do and no matter how hard i try to corner, once the straights at Sepang hits, i'm eating dusts from pretty much any turbo charged cars

btw considering the GT86 and BRZ is practically the same thing, i could just get away with the BRZ anyways right? (slight anti toyota LOL! i blame LYN)

most people won't let go the addiction of power (FI) and term that as ultimate fun or a large degree to what that believe is the central aspect of said vehicle.

I understand where you are coming from. many people may not. sometimes the majority of your driving time is where people neglect and would trade for the boost/power addiction

I'm going full circle from NA FF to FI FF to FI AWD to NA RWD (maybe later finally to FI RWD). With the latest Ford Focus RS in Turbo AWD form, you can be assured to find more Turbo AWD in the future. If you never owned an FI, then you should have one. Maybe in your future planning you can do both. They might end up putting in a turbo into the BRZ.

You are also comparing a situation where power is important. Sepang. Half the battle is won on power over there. If you take the old Batu Tiga or Pasir Gudang track, power does not come in play so much.

People say it needs more power. Yes, sure we can live with more power but that means fat tyres in the rear. Fat means more traction and less time for TC to correct. When TC kicks in, you lose power anyway and it is wasted. The fun factor is not the all out tail out Initial D style driving. That's not fun.. that's scary. The fun is in hero mode where the tail tucks out a little each time you corner and it does not have to be a hard corner. Even coming out of a junction I can make the tail wiggle and knowing that TC is there to fix it when it wiggles too much. That is the fun part.

They say the car comes with skinny tyres but it is the same size tyre that Subaru put on my WRX 15 years ago. Skinny compared to the fat 235s and 245s but the skinny tyre makes it much easier for the TC to wiggle the rear without working overtime.

now that you mentioned the Ford focus RS...


but hey, at least there's going to be a lot more choice (which would make my life/decision harded LOL!)
thanks for the encouragement btw, i'm definitely looking to that direction, but of course will keep an eye on the BRZ

and i really like the half ESP mode that you've been enjoying a TON.
the Subaru WRX STI also have that feature, im not sure if you've driven the new 2015 STI, regardless are you able to comment on it/compare it if possible?

and yea i have no qualms on skinny tires, so long it works.

You mean in Trac mode? Guess what, my old Scooby had no traction control whatsoever, just a simple AWD and even with that, it was pretty 'drama-less'. The tail is not going to come out as the car is being pulled (front wheel) and pushed (rear wheel) at the same time. The moment you put power on front wheels, it reduces it's ability to steer and it will go wide slightly. The only time I can ever get the tail out is at a U-Turn with wet roads or in very lose gravel. Even then, the car doesn't like to do it.

So whether with traction control on or off, it is very difficult to get AWDs to slip and slide on dry tarmac. Why do you think all the fancy Subaru ads are done sideways with plenty of dust and loose gravel? 

You'd have to be driving at some insane speeds on dry tarmac to wiggle any AWD. It just has too much traction.

i've yet to drive a AWD car to its limits before and even on those times i've test driven it is on public roads so my experience are very limited.

so based on your feedback, as opposed to FF/AWD, RWD/FR is the car to get if you're aiming for fun/driving pleasure? (probably why cars like bmw has that tag line of "ultimate driving machine"?)

fun is one thing, that may not necessarily be the best thing to have (since not everyone is a good driver myself included) if your aim is for lap times at Sepang, right?
however with the newer STI having DCCD and the ability to lock it to 100% RWD, wouldn't it sorta mimic something that's similar to the GT86?
or it doesn't even come close?

and now that you mentioned on those ads... rofl.

i dunno, a LOT of people are on endless pursuit for traction and suddenly it seems like a bad thing from the posts you've made haha.
your feedback of the 86 definitely shed a lot of light as i've previously disregard it entirely considering it's pricing in Malaysia.

say, if i insist on a new car, there's just no way for the 86? (since it's just not worth it at all for the pricing it is asking in Malaysia)
then again, for new sports cars in Malaysia, the pricing being demanded is just a little absurd.

One correction. The DCCD does not lock to full RWD. The DCCD provides a manual bias for your torque split, practically you can sort of adjust how you want it to react but you don't actually have full control. Hence the word bias instead of the word control. Even for 2015 STi the split is up to 41:59.

Like I said, in Sepang, the battle is half won with a powerful car. It is up to you to lose by screwing up the corners. Going sideways through corners isn't exactly the fastest way to do it.

There is no wrong in the endless pursuit of traction but it is not fun. Every Subaru driver out there can tell you that they have that little extra grin on their faces when it rains heavily while we are on the road. While most people dread driving in those conditions, it gives us a chance to wiggle around in the rain, something we don't get to do on dry roads.

I don't consider myself a pro driver either which is why the TC hasn't been fully turned off. I won't do that on public roads.

As I have also mentioned in a previous reply here, I would get the Porsche if I had the money for the best of both worlds but looking at my little car, it is the next best thing that only cost a Camry. There is of course the S2K but even with money, is hard to find.

Here is something for you to ponder. For 2.5 years since the launch of the 86 (yes, it has been 2.5 years) I have always written it off until I sat in one. Took 5 seconds for it to change my 2.5 years of thinking. That was the effect of the 86.

I see that the prices for the 86 is dropping. Waiting for it to drop even more and want to get one for weekend drives and also for the track. Tempted with all the amazing mods from Japan as well as getting it forced induced for even more power.

ah i didn't know about that, thanks for clarifying.
so you still won't be able to fake a RWD car from an AWD

and ya pretty much what you said about Sepang/Subaru/Rain.

S2k, money aside, it's near impossible to find a good condition car in bone stock. they are all modified one way or another, needless to say about trashing or even crashing it.

and yea, 2.5 years i've never really looked at the 86 much mainly because of the pricing, and 2.5 years ago i am much poorer than i am today (that's not to say i'm that far better off today, my bank's still dead broke every month rofl) which puts the 86 pretty much in an "impossible position/goal", not even getting towards worthiness/practicality/feasibility of it.
5 seconds to change 2.5 years eh, that's some pretty damn strong effect 

thanks again for all the feedback, for the time being it's best perhaps i stay away from that car

Any tips for me if I want to get a recon 86? Anything I should look out for or what specs to choose?

GT Limited comes with spoiler (as found on the BRZ) and half Alcantara leather seats.

You can find the full specs and differences on the internet.

BRZ only 1 spec?
motor image only 1, and looks like no longer selling anyways :/

Yes, BRZ only one spec.

3 Specs Available.

GT Limited and GT (you can find out the specs online) and the G (which has cheaper specs). Performance wise all are the same, the difference are the wheel size, trims and interior.

G version is standard 16 inch rims, no leather trims, black face tacho, no spotlights. The GT comes with white face tacho with digital speedo and leather trims with 17 inch wheels and HID lights. GT Limited comes with spoiler (as found on the BRZ) and half Alcantara leather seats.

You can find the full specs and differences on the internet.

It is still a very small club but you can join us here.. https://www.facebook.com/groups/616768571686080/

I just took delivery of mine last week and it is fantastic.

Hey sleepwalker, you bought it recon? I went thru classifieds, most are auto. Are your auto as well? TQ

Recon & Manual. You have to search for it. I found one GT Limited, GT and G manual when I was searching for mine. 3 out of like 10 in the classifieds. Can't even find one BRZ manual.

3 Specs Available.

GT Limited and GT (you can find out the specs online) and the G (which has cheaper specs). Performance wise all are the same, the difference are the wheel size, trims and interior.

G version is standard 16 inch rims, no leather trims, black face tacho, no spotlights. The GT comes with white face tacho with digital speedo and leather trims with 17 inch wheels and HID lights. GT Limited comes with spoiler (as found on the BRZ) and half Alcantara leather seats.

You can find the full specs and differences on the internet.

Havent seen light blue before
But this blue surely sexy with quad exhaust 

Maybe it was white, or some light colored, it was at night, hard to really tell.

Car was fast, zoom past tropikana and d Utama and headed towards BU or hway. Wasn't driving my car, else I just wanna tag  along just to hear the exhaust.

86 aint fast, well at least not as fast as gti. haha. 86 Exhaust sound is like  good old symphony playing again and again

Light blue is wrapped unit bro.Called baby wrapped by Motorsport playground
Btw,I am 86 ex owner

Light blue is wrapped unit bro.Called baby wrapped by Motorsport playground
Btw,I am 86 ex owner