Dear Valve/steam fans,



yes, i hate steam too. and yes i have over 30 games on steam that i can't do anything about it besides finding cracks if there's ever a time i want to move out of steam.

yes steam is technically responsible for causing FPS to be dumbed down to TF2/COD/BF
yes steam is also partially responsible for dumbing down the MOBA genre.

and yes, i also know that there's way more good than bad steam has brought us.

Additional steam info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_(software)


update 20120801:
Steam updated EULA to prevent being sued. From a consumer standpoint, you're further stripped off your rights in case anything goes wrong with steam.

source:
http://kotaku.com/5930705/now-valve-is-try...-suing-them-too

^
in reply to the above legal issue (20120805 update)


20120807 update on monopolization in general:

tldr skip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REC4xwpX26g...tailpage#t=750s

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Aug 7 2012, 02:38 AM

Point 1
we cant do much until steam/valve changes their ToS but that will unlikely happen cause, whats the point of having Steam in the first place

Rest assured, they did mention should they go out of business (so unlikely to happen in the next few years) they would make all games on your account DRM free

Point 2
Multiplayer fps wise, i think it escalated with the release of COD 4 to the point where it became Battlefield vs COD

CS on the other hand had been very quiet but still played by tons of 'loyalist' of the old school fps

So with the release of TF2 which was bundled with the Orange Box initially, needless to say that it drew a lot of gamers due to its bargain price. 5 games for one price was something rare back then. Valve began to churn out updates for free while COD release updates for cash, so to certain consumers like me, i would prefer TF2 though i do enjoy COD 4 in CC with my friends from time to time.

I would agree with TotalBiscuit, i cant name any P2P MP Fps that can topple the main 4 being CS, TF2, COD and BF. It's just the immense power of these brands that draw people to it. When you suggest a free fps game, first thing that pops out from your head is TF2 due to its immense popularity though some might disagree with this. We have a larger choice of selection now being Tribes and Blacklight.

Point 3

I don't really get the dumbing down MOBA/ARTS genre part


My personal opinion
Steam brings more good than bad, the only bad part is being what if steam suddenly go full retard with its market leader/monopoly status and they really need to work on the servers.


The good side is, im confident enough to say that it changes the lives of many gamers around the world for a greater cause. We can see pirates buying originals now, we can play and connect with gamers from around the globe easier. The number of tools that Steam provides just makes it easy for us gamers.


TLDR Version
- Steam brings more good than bad
- Steam will unlock your games if they go bust
- Not many MP FPS can compete with what i call the big 4 ( CS, TF2, COD, BF) due to content and quality
- Dont get dumbing down moba/arts part

name me another MOBA that isnt DOTA/LOL/HON that is either cheap or free to play and very popular at the same time

Steam is a digital distribution platform.

Yeah, I can see how its Steam's fault EA and Activision puts out load of crap.

Here's a hint. Both EA and Activision are run by idiots who knows nothing about gaming.

Smite, Super MNC

This post has been edited by Shuuu: Jul 21 2012, 09:43 PM

the MOBA/ARTS genre is pretty much limited to these 3 unless you want to include the upcoming Smite

its a very niche genre i must say with the bulk of such players coming off from DotA and then moving on either towards LoL, Dota 2 or HoN

generally these 3 games had a better pool of players than previous MOBA/ARTS games like Demigod is because they fulfill their needs

Demigod did things well aside from a few things that killed itself of, if i recall correctly, there was only 12 heroes to choose from while the other 3 games had more than 100 (not sure about LoL)

Bloodlines on the other hand, well i'll say it came out quite late to grab a piece of the pie. It was released 1 year after HoN was released. Being a late player and having gamers already stick and dumping money into HoN/ LoL, not much people would change to a new game and having to relearn the whole mechanics, heroes, items and skills again

Rise of the Immortal was a terrible game, Smite and Super MNC are 3rd person with MOBA/ARTS element, Chaos Online is the Korean version of DotA (thats why you dont see them in Dota 2 much)

There is not much of games in this genre to began with and the success of these 3 games was how quickly it responded to the needs of DotA players (dedicated servers, replays, matchmaking)

LoL found it success due to a more different game mechanic, rune system, and a supposedly more 'balance' and 'fun' and simple (debatable) while HoN had a large player base from DotA players

Dota 2 with a nearly 70k players at peak at a moment (which will continue to rise) is due to having the support of a huge company, having Icefrog and Eul onboard and keeping true to its roots

The other MOBA/ARTS game just have nothing to offer to these gamers other than being different

watched the video?

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Added on July 21, 2012, 10:21 pmnot yet released/popular?

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Added on July 21, 2012, 10:24 pmoh man demigods was a good attempt, however alas people were too entrenched down in dota back then

but yea, thats the whole point of my video/pointers i've made on top:
there isn't much choice for us consumers!

let's say you like demigods or smite over dota/hon/lol, however your friends don't, you will end up playing alone or against random public friends/enemies.

that's just discouraging to every new player trying to move on/try out something different

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Jul 21 2012, 10:24 PM

I dont know about you guys

1. In marketing/sales point of view, Valve/Steam done nothing wrong. Is a competitor job to knock down other company. If you got a business of your own, dont you wish to knock out your competitor so that more customer comes to u?

2. "You gotta use money to make money". Heard of that phrase? Steam use money on developing DOTA2/TF2 to attract customer come to steam and yeah, as the video guys said, you get hooked buy games on promo and stuff, steam get to earn their money at the other end so basically the same thing.

3. I think this is a positive way that the other developer will try to do better on their games, blaming valve/steam wont get their customer back, let alone profit.

4. Ah yeah, I can see the long term damage that steam can do. Also at the same time I also think that "How many ppl that play actively a game for several years?". Ppl get boring and they move on other games, so it doest seem that valve kill at games market out there.

5. Admit it, we all dont really like client. Before GOG, Gamersgate, Origins come, updating a game can be really hard sometime especially those eurpean games like The Wither, Sacred 2. Steam make it easy for me. For me, steam conpensate my will not having a client on my PC by doing a good job on that. Seriously, without steam client model, how long do you think until Origins or any other "client" can follow?

My Conclusion: So basically is like blaming on something that still havent really happen (I still dont see it now, just so you played a good games, doesnt mean other doesnt enjoy your so called crappy games) on steam for doing such a good job. Same theory as, just so you like transformer very much doesnt mean that others doesnt like Voltron.

nothing much devs can do right now on the ARTS genre, would you compete with those 3 juggernauts and still hope to make a profit? Even i wont lol, its just too risky

choice wise, there are always choices, just choose the lesser evil in my case steam is

total biscuit has his point, in the long term this steam is bad for consumer as well.

and Valve is a cancer among all developers, no developer likes to share their cut to valve. Never.

And only way to stop this shit is to

have mega publisher+ all developers should just gang up on valve and develope an open source digital client,that is equally powerful.With 1 thing, the client are only responsible for grouping the all ur games together/storing Cd-keys etc in 1 client for consumer. But the game download/patch server are link all the way back to the developer ftp server themselves. So in other words,the page for the game, the Download bandwidth/ ftp server, patching server, are all maintained by developer itselfs just like how facebook work now. With everything maintain by developer, there is not need for developerto share the cut to 3rd party, games will be cheap this way also.

then Consumer also get 1 client only = Everybody win

I mean how expensive can manage just login and CD-keys? every developer share the cost can make this common server run flawlessly with ftp/patch server running on their own.

Who said they were right?

EA is a crap company. They don't care about making great games. EA themself admit that Dead Space 3 must sell 5 million copies, and they are making it appealing to the mainstream to achieve that.

They admitted that if a game cannot sell that much they won't invest in it. In other words, they are making generic games ONLY. How is that Valve's fault that EA only wants to sell to the mainstream gamers?

I don't care what Valve does. It has nothing to do with EA company policy.


And btw, Steam is just a software.

1) no one said they've done anything wrong. and yeah easier said than done. i mean, you're a malaysian right? tmnet is the big bad evil, so its a competitor's job to knock down tmnet right? heh.

2) and your point is?

3) how is this positive when steam is willingly (or unwillingly) monopolizing the market? how does monopoly encourages other developer to do better on their games?

4) so you're saying that steam/valve killing games can be a cause that people does not actively play a game for several years?

5) steam IS THAT CLIENT that you're referring to. what if steam is down/busy/inaccessible? (which has been time to time for me, and many other people who aren't fanboi enough to look pass that)
and no, the best way is to NOT have a client/DRM model at all.

this isn't so much of a blame as it is to create awareness on an impending problem that will definitely be a problem if it gets out of hand. you may not see it now, but when it hits you, there is simply nothing you can do to prevent it or alleviate it.

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Added on July 21, 2012, 10:57 pmyeah very realistic point of view.

however for choices, although i'd like to disagree, unfortunately it is often the most logical thing (or choice) to do
in this case, relatively : tmnet

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Jul 21 2012, 10:57 PM

thing is, valve handles all the upkeep cost of the servers and the bandwidth and the patching system is far easier than the ones by microsoft

logically speaking, giving 30% of your profit to use a system where you can patch your games easily, and not having to pay for bandwidth, free marketing as well as tapping the potential consumer base of nearly 30 million users sounds like a good deal to me

we all fear the day valve become full retard and personally i hope that day never comes and all form of drm, client becomes one (steam preferbally XD)

Reminds me of Classic WoW players that I often stumble across when I visit WoW Forums , people who claim that Classic WoW were the best and stuff and like how the new WoW - has pandas and pokemon. Things have moved on , yes Steam is not 100% savior nor devil.

All companies care for profit. Let me take Blizzard in terms of WoW , the reason why they make it casual friendly (aka dumbing down the game) is to get more people. It goes the same to TF2 as well , I am quite sure original orange box players would know the difference of old TF2 and new one. The new one , they have added tons of things and made it appealing for casual players.


As for steam , you could view it as a monopoly but its helping people in like our country for people to afford and buy legit games , where can you get L4D2 or something for a cheap price. If Valve sells prepaid card in Malaysia , it would be a huge hit

the cost can be huge, and which developer/publisher want to fork out that upfront cost? not to mention they will be competing to steam directly which is already established.

its a decent idea, however practical or not, in the end it still boils down to financing/marketing decisions which is kinda on the bad side

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Added on July 21, 2012, 11:03 pmso you're saying, that even if valve feeds you shit, you're more than happy to eat it all up? is that what your standpoint is?
again, we're talking about valve/steam, what EA does, is their problem. i am not talking about EA

also, steam is not just a software, it is an online DRM platform.
case in point, if you cannot login steam, you have NO ACCESS TO YOUR GAMES WHATSOEVER EVEN IF THEY ARE ON YOUR HDD

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Added on July 21, 2012, 11:04 pmwhat if they do not go bankrupt/close down? there are many other "shit" publishers/devs out there, however most of them did not go bankrupt/close down either.

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Jul 21 2012, 11:04 PM

it is not good deal to some developer who is capable to do everything themselves. And u are not developer, u are not valve, u do not know how much these developer pays valve. Valve do not offer steam as charity by charging the upkeep cost without profit.

There is a reason why some developer choose to avoid using steam, they is the reason why EA move all their future games within their server. Maintaining server urself sometimes is cheaper, it also allows u to choose ur best provider to maintain the servers. EA do not have to pay valve's cut of profit.

Server upkeep cost alone is cheaper than paying someone pocket(valve) + server upkeep cost.

With these big guys like EA/Ubisoft moving out, u'll see the reason why they hate to share their cut to valve.

If I am an Indie Developer , I don't mind Valve handling everything for me. Yes they take a slice of the pie , but I do not have to worry about processing payment , run a server , pushing updates , or even have to worry about people haxxxoring my game (Valve provides their anti-cheat SDK). Plus I could do weekend promotions that could help to promote the game. What more when the client runs on Linux/Mac/Windows. If my game can run on these platforms , I can pretty much get people from different OSes to purchase. These stuff are appealing for Indie Developer

hey glad you'd bring WoW up. i too used to praise the heavens to even a point worship WoW. however it was clear that WoW (or blizz) has pretty much played their role in dumbing down the MMORPG genre as well. many competitors has since risen up and claim to be the "WoW-killer" and many has since then failed.

i've played that mmorpg since closed beta, way back then what, 7-8 years ago? but yeah like you said, things have changed.
so many years of the same thing (essentially), eventually one would get bored. i've since then quit before cataclysm came out (though i still bought the collector's for collection sake lol), and have yearned to have an mmorpg that could be better than WoW ever was. i guess i can only wait in vain as things are going lol.

and yes, that is true. casual players make up the bulk of their income. hardwares will never ever will be their source of income considering how low their player base is and even hardcores will eventually move on (real life obligations, work etc) while casuals will have a longer lifespan in terms of game replay-ability (for many reasons, one could be they havent finish a game as fast as hardcores would, thus take longer to play)

and yes, i have mentioned that steam has done more good than it did bad (hell , most of the things i or the video aka total biscuit mentioned are things that have YET to become btw) however there is no denying on the potential of problems that may become.

I dont think develop a simple login/DRM tracking software like steam is expensive. It is just an authentication client that group all the games they a player own, and link the ftp server back to the developer. Just like torrent websites, they host nothing, just a link.

I mean these big game developer is capable of develop a game that are easily far more complex & expensive to develop and giving out free sometimes. So this kind of Open-source client should cost peanut to them.

the real problem is everyone EA/UBI/blizzard trying to complete on their own with their own version of client, instead of sitting on the same table to give consumer a better open fair platform.

problem is you're not just paying for server/processing/maintenance cost, you're also paying for free marketing and advertising, which could mean losing a lot more on potential revenue.

bandwidth is expensive as well

Exactly the same (well similar) , just wait for Mists to be out and you'll notice that people would buy , give it a go for one month and then decide (even haters). You can't deny that. The same goes for steam as well , just like you said. Honestly speaking the benefits of Steam outweighs its problems

Actually you did. You mentioned BF and COD. What other company does have got nothing to do with Valve.

Yes, Steam is a DRM. I'm not saying everyone must accept DRM, but, please name any big publisher who can forgo DRM. Absolutely none.

DRM is here to say, EA wants it, Ubisoft wants it, every big publishers want it. Hell a solo dev making MiG 21 sim for DCS is willing to fork out 5k for DRM.

Again, I'm not saying its right or wrong, but what can we expect?

OUYA, the currently hyped open platform console. DO you see EA, Activision or Ubisoft developing any games for it? I don't. Companies will not make games they have no control over.

Just to clarify things, once again I'm not saying we should all accept Steam or any DRM, but its hear to stay in PC gaming.

While I would be wary of Steam going evil etc, I would not take it from them that they have done a good job so far and thus ensuring the constant crowd in TF2 and Steam. The occasional client start-up crash does annoys me but that's the only problem I encountered so far. Not really worth the effort to take up my pitchfork yet.

If they are good, honestly you can't blame people for choose Steam as the main client for all their games, no? Though the morons threatening to pirate future BG because BG might not go on Steam??!?!? Blasphemy! Those idiots deserve a fireball in the face =D

software development is NOT cheap lol.
if you've ever been involved in the costing of those you would immediately understand.

hell, try look at the pricing for corporate software, some of the figures are in so many digits it would even make you dizzy just by a glance at it.

and no, it is not just a simple form of authentication. having weak security/authentication means your servers are prone to hackers, in which having breach, you could be potentially losing a lot of sensitive information/data, having your games full of cheaters, or worse, losing the confidence in your customers which means losing revenue/income which ultimately means you're going to close down.

do you think developers are willing to take the risk if someone f***s up on the security of said client, and have their game(s) screwed?
torrents are simple because there wasn't security concerns involved, if anything *MOST* torrenting activity involved piracy. do you think pirates are that much concerned in having their FREE software (or movie) compromised?

and all these, are in view of big developers.
what about smaller companies? what about indie games?

open-source is good and all, however you do realized that open-source means if shit happen, you're on your own, right?
that goes the same if you're involved in software in big companies. sure, open-source = low cost/free, however when shit hits the fan, you're in potential of losing even more money had you invested in a licensed software

and thats the thing, if they ALL band together, came up with something that manages to defeat or even kill off steam. what makes you think that they, someday, wouldn't be just like steam?

I think the point which is most important is any monopoly is bad.

the developer then need to host multiple server in different region,
is not cheap to maintain so many server.

Also, as Quazacolt said, what they paid to steam is not only maintaining the server fees, there also include thing like advertising

haha yeah pretty much. hell if they release mists CE (which some data miners already claim that theres a mists CE achievement ) id probably buy too just to collect despite i no longer play WoW since WOTLK so long ago lol

and hell, i am using steam and have over 30 games on steam. it's HARD (haters or not) to ignore the sub-5usd cheap games compilations. or even in some cases (for me), sort of an atonement for piracy? i am buying a lot of nostalgic/old school games i used to pirate lol. yes, it doesn't make me any more of a saint as TB even pointed out at some point in the video, 2 rights doesn't cover 1 wrong or so they say.

it just makes me feel that much better though supporting the devs (even though some of them may be already gone compared to the original devs/staffs that developed the game back then)

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Added on July 21, 2012, 11:39 pmi mentioned them because they are the only big named FPS around that results in the ultimate dumbing down of the genre. not so much the developers, or their form of DRM.
if it pleases you, you can IGNORE the BF/COD that i have mentioned, and focuses SOLELY on TF2

so what is your point? you didn't say (though you damn well implied so) everyone must accept DRM, but you are at the same time implying that there are no DRM-free games out there

the key point i (or TB) is trying to make here, is that we should gobble up whatever shit (DRM or not) people feed us. it is no different than being oppressed and you just obey willingly like it is the right thing to do. you claim to say it is not right or wrong, however your actions are implying that it is the right thing to do and that is (in my own opinion) very much wrong!

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Jul 21 2012, 11:39 PM

TB does have a good point, agree with his points. Steam fan boys are incredibly annoying but the reason why these people want certain games on Steam is because there are other DRM that are much more annoying than Steam.

Think about Starforce that destroy your PC, the early iteration of Securom that you only can install the game 5 times, the dreaded GFWL with a long list of problem or the lovely UbiDRM that used to required you to stay online all the time. Among of all these "evils", the only viable decent alternative is only Steam, unless you are going with the no DRM method which is no possible in today's market. With exception to CD Projekt Red.

However, i do agree with TB's point, Steam is way too big these days, which is bad for the entire PC gaming industry in the long run. The thing that worries me the most, it will be the day that Valve turn evil and started to act like EA. That fears me the most, but consider this, if Steam didnt exist in the first place, i bet PC gaming would be worse than what it is now.

Personally, i am fine with most DRM. It doesnt have to be on Steam as long as the DRM doesnt screw me over like GFWL with it's laundry list of problems. Origin is decent too, but EA has to stop thinking about money only to make a decent game.

In fact, i actually like clients from MMOs that does pretty much everything that steam do, like Blizzard's launcher, GW2's game launcher or the launcher that most F2P MMO uses. Steam, on the other hand, it is alright for me. It is nice to have cheap sale that made me discover games that i will never find. Or offering a central place to access my games, than having game icons everywhere on my desktop. Also the fact that it connects you with other people.

PS3 have PSN as their backend system, 360 have their own Xbox LIVE, while on PC, we have Steam. I think a centralised system is needed on PC in one way or another, considering the fact that how important these systems have been for console. I rather have Steam, than going through the whole DRM minefield with Starforce, Securom and so on. Steam is not perfect, but it is the best thing we have now.

Do not blame it on TF2 because the game has more depth than a lot of fps out there these days. Blame it on consoles for dumbing down the whole fps genre because they cant handle twitch games like Quake, Unreal Tournament and Tribes. Thats why slower paced games like Call of Duty were born.

I admit, the only FPS that i truly enjoy these days is Tribes: Ascend because it does something very different from other FPS in the market. Not like CoD, BF and so on are bad, but still, they are all pretty much the same.

Dota 2 is pretty exactly the same as the Dota in WC3, since when they did dumb down? LoL and HoN was never on Steam, so, when did Steam is responsible for dumbing down MOBA?

The problem we dont see many MOBAs other than Dota and LoL is because these 2 games have become an enormous player in the MOBA market to the point it is impenetrable for any new devs. Same goes with how Call of Duty and Battlefield have been causing the entire fps genre to be stagnant. Or how Starcraft 2 has pretty much killed other RTS because it is so popular, polished, and well balanced to the point that other RTS like Supreme Commander or Command and Conquer are dead now. WoW didnt get away entirely innocent because it causes the whole MMO market to keep on pumping the same WoW clone again and again. While other people tried to make something new to breath a fresh air on the same old ideas, tell me how many of them have been successful? Most of them failed terribly, with a few success stories here and there.

People always go back to the franchises they know, just how the movie industry trying to remake every single old movie due to the fact that people knows these names in the past. Or musicians taking tunes from old songs or remake the song. Or Activison/EA/Ubisoft keep making the same game again and again. People are more willing to try a brand that they knew, than a brand new IP that they never hear before.

This is not just Steam's problem, it is more people in general do not want to take any more risk because producing an entertainment cost a bomb these days.

As much as i want more Christopher Nolan's Batman movies, games with new ideas like Dishonored or Minecraft, or musicians like Explosion in the Sky, unfortunately these things just dont happen every often. It is a sad truth, innovation and new ideas doesnt come easy.

This post has been edited by Cheesenium: Jul 22 2012, 12:18 AM

lol @ TB's comment at 4:35, cracks me everytime


omg, seriously? No more please, after watching TDKR, I think it's best if Nolan worked on something other than Batman after this

This post has been edited by gaeria84: Jul 22 2012, 12:24 AM

It is not cheap but definately NOT super expensive than the total cut that these developer pays valves every game they sold/release. EA/Ubi/Blizzard have their own clients, so are many MMOs including the free ones have their clients. It is not hard to make a client. I dont see how this can be hard if at least the "big 5" developers sit on the same table start their own common client put their AAA titles there, EA went risky Origin with BF3, and it pays off handsomely. Now they are half-way off the grid from Steam. It just that they(big developers) arent willing to talk the same tone to ditch valve.

I think quazacolt meant that adding up the advertising fees valve is charging further worsten the revenue. U will need to pay Valves cut/profit as well. Not is not just the server upkeep and advertising. I mentioned that in previous post already, valve are not here providing all these service @ cost doing charity, the developer are paying server upkeep + valve profit + adversting + valve profit. Valve are earning nice profit out from just providing service from it. Thats the biggest problem with developers hating steam because they DO NOT want to share their profit to valve.

In general the Steam ecosystem are only benefitial to small developers who couldnt afford to distribute their game across the world in global scale.

This post has been edited by Boldnut: Jul 22 2012, 12:41 AM

I mean something as interesting as Nolan's take at the whole Batman idea. Rather than more Batman movies.

I would want Nolan's Inception 2, if he is dead serious in making it as a game. There is a perfect developer out there for making the Inception game, Remedy.

1. You know well that the goverment is controlling the whole telekom thing right? thus, change the goverment if u wan changes, this also apply to proton cars. You just give a bad example

2. They gamble their money put on developing a game that they give for free. The may or may not earn money at all. For TF2 and Dota 2 case, they won.

3. PC is a free market. There no body fault if there no developer willing to make any games. Ppl do what they think profits them. I dont see why monopoly discourage making a better games, steam just a type of place to publish games.

4. I having hard time understand you... what i mean earlier is TF2/Dota2 just a marketing strategy to drag ppl in steam. With the steam promo keep pop out, i dont think ppl gonna stick with TF2 or Dota 2 for a very long time (they may play time to time but wont play all the time), they sure buy games.

5. You cant debate on something "what if"... if so, what if no internet? what if no letrik? If it really hits me then play other games la, like you PC only install 1 game meh. Dowan play games then go watch movie la, tu also wan kecoh?

DOnt really care if it out of hand, there still PS3, or Xbox. Fed up with PC then go for others, I dont understand why making yourself do something you dont like. Steam didnt point gun at you. For my personal opinion there always guys like the video seems mata merah looking at others making big money. This goes same as Microsoft, Nvidia and others. They making money based on legit and smart marketing strategies, they not robbering you. You have the choice to buy or not and most importantly, we all buy games we like, fun, unique, so in the end, who care about this steam? Pirating games because its not on steam is moronic answer (I personaly think this because pirating steam games has a very bad side effect)

well, what i did was supporting kickstarters like Wasteland 2 etc... they deserve our money more than publishers...

ps: any fanboy is annoying and unreasonable regardless of blizzard/ valve etc

but but but gaben is our lord and savior

What happens after Gaben?

Robin takes over and introduces TF3

/runs

maybe ea bought steam?
oh wait who am I kidding

I always looking forward to see Valve gone full retard, HOOO boy the tears will flood enough places to put El Nino to shame.

It's hard to say how would pc gaming will be if valve/steam hadn't exist.

There is a possibility where DRM would be thwarted instead of "eased off" (gone too far, too much outrage, etc)
There is also a possibility where there is an open sourced client like another forumer mentioned.

too hard too assume something that never taken place imho.

on the console's end, i'd rather have a diversified eco-system than say, one psn for ps3, and xboxlive for xbox. MAYBE that is why i didn't really got into console much (and its communities such as psn) despite owning a ps3 for so long. It is a closed end (and in an exaggerated fashion: monopolized) system that irks me to no end. I mean, if i want to have a different community or system, i can't because sony cockblocks me with their PSN.

the only relief to all that is i play mostly single player stuff on my ps3 which means i dont actually interact with psn much and if i opt to move out/sell my games, i still very much can unlike steam.

_____

Like i said, it isn't so much of a blame than to point out an impending/ongoing problem.
for TF2's sake, i believe our resident staffer prasys mentioned how tf2 was compared to how it is now.

TF 2 isn't the main/root cause of the whole bigger issue, however it had its part to play as TB mentioned.

_____

i did mentioned specifically partially right?

Remember valve's attempt to licensed the entire dota name? the long dispute with blizzard? and dota 2 now being on steam?
yeah that's that.

i have to say though, seeing:


i totally lost it

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Added on July 22, 2012, 10:04 amEA didnt quite get paid off with their origin. notice how much outcry that caused. as TB mentioned, had EA been valve launching their steam, it would've sounded VERY different. then again, steam back then had their share of outcries too. just that today, it is impossible to have an outcry because they can't; with reasons i (and TB) have pointed out above

also, i meant that if your games are on steam, it automatically gets advertised due to the larger user base and/or sales.
i honestly do not believe that steam has an extra charge to advertise your games. EVEN IF they do, it is still a form of good/effective advertising that makes it worthwhile (else why would people put their stuff on steam anyways?)

the point being you can potentially lose out more money JUST because your game isn't on steam. not so much advertising fees involved.

and yes, as you mentioned, it DOES benefit the small devs. which ultimately means that there is good out of it (And from history/track record, they have greatly benefited many indie devs which they wouldn't have had steam not existed. recettear/dungeon defenders anyone? )

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Added on July 22, 2012, 10:23 am1) how is it a bad example when the END RESULT is monopolization regardless WHO (government) controls tm and HOW (cronyism) they do it?

2) it isn't much of a gamble if it meant strengthening their platform that willingly or unwilling results in further monopolization. you've still provided a very weak point/retort ultimately.

3) PC gaming (assuming you meant this instead of just PC) is never a free market, furthermore when you consider pitted against the bigger names/dev out there. monopolization is always an issue regardless in pc gaming or your everyday life/other industry and if you fail to see that, there isn't much that can be discussed further. and again, it isn't just a place. it is a form of DRM that results in heavy monopolization of the gaming industry whether it is willingly or unwillingly; and that is a sad, hard truth especially when you consider the long run of pc gaming.

4) I mentioned that because it is exactly what steam is causing. with market monopolization, people would not be playing newer games, newer IPs. Not to mention with how steam sales are going, any game not on steam wouldn't be getting enough attention, and people are just game hopping here and there without much chance for lesser developers to develop a strong community/fanbase as otherwise steam could. and hey, you even ADMIT that tf2/dota2 is a marketing strategy to draw more people in. Can't you at least see this being a ploy for monopolization?

5) the problem being with steam is that, if shit REALLY HAPPEN, you CANNOT EXPORT YOUR GAMES OUT less you use illegal cracks. there is NO WAY OUT unless VALVE/STEAM CLOSE DOWN, and that's IF THEY KEEP their promising on releasing the DRM that binds your game considering if they had to close down, chances are they've already turned evil and their chance of keeping promising is slim.

Just to let you know, PS3 and Xbox have the same/similar monopolized eco-system. eventually you WILL run out of choices to go as you're being forced to turn elsewhere over and over again. and no, if you think microsoft/nvidia got to where they are completely clean, you're totally dead wrong. i'd suggest reading up a bit on wiki/microsoft or nvidia's histories. This isn't so much of a "mata merah" aka jealousy/envy issue more than an ongoing monopolization issue which is a VALID CONCERN if you understood what monopolization truly meant. I also strongly suggest reading the definition/wiki on what monopolize means.

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Jul 22 2012, 10:23 AM

people are supporting Steam because they are the lesser evil than the rest we have today. And they have no other choices because they want that huge -75% discount.

it is quite hard to say if EA were to release their version of "steam" back then, and the result would be diff. But one thing is very real in common among some of the developers who couldnt agree with steam -> Valve are taking their cut of profit, and they do not want to share their profit.

Steam are only benefiting small indie developers, not the big boys. The big boys can certainly do all these digital distribution without steam, because they have spent money on marketing their game already. Their titles are popular enough, they just do not want share profit to valve and talk on valve's terms.

Valve is obviously playing the the consumer card with its own interest for now just to gain market share and kill off everyone else. As TB said everything will be fine until Valve gone full retard if they ever go full monopoly, which is my concern also.

yeap and that's why threads like this exist. i think the other "big boys" developers aren't willing to band together because it isn't easy on agreeing towards a common consensus on how to handle that said "open client", how are money being handled, how should bandwidth/server management be paid for etc.

in a way that is good too, as "another steam" would never show up which lessens future concerns

I got my Assassin Creed 2 for just 5 bucks(USD), and now Ubisoft have customer support me, release game patch, maintaining Uplay Upkeep. All that are within 5bucks. That 5 bucks are included with valve's Download server upkeep, advertising + valve cut of profit.

I couldnt even imaging how much money are left for Ubisoft alone. I couldnt even imaging if they ever earn some money off me. Probably a dollar? or 2-3 bucks? for an AAA game that is 2yrs old? Thats absurd from a developer point of view.

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Added on July 22, 2012, 10:39 amI am more toward them arent willing to band together. This is the biggest problem among them.

if the ftp server run by the developer themselves & are linked from the "open client". That means the upkeep for the Login server should be significant lower than the download server upkeep. Thats shouldnt be much of a problem as the amount are small enough. Heck u might even enough sponsorship by the big boys run the server.

a same example could have been say for like HDMI(not really open), RJ45, OpenGL/OpenCL.

Another good example for software are metatrader in the forex stock, or the Linux as a whole.

This post has been edited by Boldnut: Jul 22 2012, 10:43 AM

well for "expired" game titles, more often than not, it is either that 2-3 dollars worth of sale, or nothing at all. steam is good in the sense that it rejuvenates cash flow for older titles where they wouldn't have had sales without steam bargain sales.

a better question is would you? (or other malaysians) got assassins creed 2 if it isn't 5 usd?

actually the cost is higher UNLESS it utilizes a torrent architecture for downloads/large data transfer, and that itself imposes another problem. if you're familiar with blizzard's clients on their recent games/mmo's you would've understood this completely
reason of an open client having higher cost is because it is harder to secure so many front ends for so many devs/systems. think of it as a one single gate that protects all your houses (all the other game platforms/systems), if that ONE gate is breached, everyone gets screwed, royally.

quite true at least for me I wouldnt even bother at all if it is isnt cheap enough. Free games are high quality these days for casual gamer like me. it is quite pitty that Ubisoft now have to spent their resources supporting me as legitimate customer as I almost pay nothing to them for a multi-million AAA game

as for the gate, u can also make the authentication independent among the developer as well. for ex. I have to login Uplay acc using "open client" as well as Origin acc using "open client"

At least from here, customer dont have to run multiple clients just to launch 1 game or having multiple client installed.

right now for Uplay it sucks, I have to launch steam, click play launch Uplay click play again just to play game. It is pretty redundant.

This post has been edited by Boldnut: Jul 22 2012, 10:55 AM

^

thats ubisoft problem with their shitty drm

lanjiao!

1. Mainstream FPS was dumber before Steam, unless you count niche tactical shooters like R6 and SWAT4. BE3 isn't dumb either.

2. Steam didn't affect MOBA genre. LoL, MNC and HoN were standalone.

what, upset that steam/valve is offended by me/TB?

idc, whoever said that should butfuk a puffer fish

Regardless, I will still buy games i love. Not jut because of things that steam havent done then i go avoid it, it just plain stupid.

In all truthful and fairness, I'll provide something useful for you guys to use

its funny how half of the commenters here didn't actually watch the video before commenting judging from their reply or they are jz horrible at comprehension in general... TB explained so well on how Valve's product just kill other products within the genre and yet..... =.="

for me changing from being a pirated pc gamer to the original pc gamer wasn't easy,the monotery issue always plague me is ,could i buy that game in full USD price (mostly cost around RM1XX to 2XX).since steam have regular sales period i could afford buying game which i pirated once and some i find good.to say i don't care about the steam installed client is stupid but still since its check for my game files whether it's all there or a new patches has pop-up so i have no issue there but i lag when steam community pop-up (maybe just me). tried origin, found out a few games has no problem but the cannot play if not updated and the biggest problem i had on mass effect 2 ce because of the client doesn't check on the files downloaded made redownload thrice 30 GB of the same data. GOG capsule i have no problem but also a little clunky in data download.GFWL, i swear if there is worse DRM i had, it that, firstly the Freaking region-locked game.many game such as dead rising 2 which i play pirated copy once was a very good game for me and i wanted to buy a copy but thanks to GFWL, but i must buy the physical copy at full price. Batman Arkham City still pisses me of due to the UPDATE is handled by GFWL,which the automate update failed and manual update failed.the un-updated version cannot save my progress which made me hate GFWL more.

TL;DR
1-i'm not and expert on these DRM/Client thingy.this is just a perspective of a average gamer and as my experience
2-bout the not in steam,gonna pirate is kinda stupid.if you like it then buy it.
3-i can't have racks of physical copies or i will get scold by the wife for buying games.
4-i am a poor fags who only buy game on sale/offer
5-as middle age guy,i choose things which doesn't made scour the whole net for solution yet made thing simple and doesn't restrict me much..

hi

i'm a fanatical follower of lorb gaben and i am not pleased with the negative feedback about steam and valve.

LONG LIVE LORD GABEN !!!

Gabe is fat.

I would F**cking blame AsiaSoft's Maple ArenaNet's GW2 for killing WoW!!! GODDAMMIT!!!

U MAD BRO?

EA not so bad (the idiot running EA looks like he at least understand a bit about the game making progress. Only problem is he's very racist and believes Asians should pay more for the game than Americans or Europeans, and that Asians should only play with other Asians, Europeans should only play with other Europeans, and Americans should only play with Americans). Activision... Kotick, nuff said (for the records, this idiot says he wants to kill the fun in making games. He is also fully money-centered and don't believe in creating games for the art or love of it. Game not selling well? Your department dies, even if you're willing to keep making sequels because there is still a fanbase there).

+1. Well said. I changed to ori gamer as soon as I started having a real job after leaving college. With Steam, I don't have to drive to SS2 to buy my games, which is a plus. I rather start the download and then go watch TV or go look for food (or go play other game), then come back and find it done, instead of getting stuck in a jam for 2 hours, looking for parking space (hopefully not pasar malam night, if it is then i'm f**ked), quickly go buy the game, come back, stuck in another jam for 2 hours, then have to install the game. Other shops? They don't have all the titles. But the best thing is that I don't have to put the disc into the drive every time I want to play the game, which is the biggest annoyance I face with ori discs.

This post has been edited by RAMChYLD: Jul 23 2012, 10:46 AM

- there's something called postage (and before you start on "day 1 gameplay", there are some publishers offering pre-release date shipping to cope with shipping delays)
- there's many variety of shops, even online shops, even on LYN selling games in physical copies
- *most* games these day no longer require discs to be inserted everytime you play (at least ALL the ones i purchased recently does not)

You guys sure this isn't just commodification in practice?

Meh.

err save them trees! lul. go digital

the environment is none of my concern.

besides if you want to be more serious about the environment, the packaging all uses corrugated paper/recycled paper. so... no trees were gg'd

Haven gotten the time to watch the video(fark work) but without Steam, I guess it will be alot difficult to convince some of my hardcore pirate all the way friends to go clean when buying games.

Doomsday should comeby end of this year and all this crap were nonsense by then.

LOL

that's because we keep feeding him non-stop

Lets all be honest here. We love Steam. Steam is like a girl which just wants to F*** with you. She may have some problem but she will do all that you want to (you know you want it right). She may not be a beauty but you won't be shy letting your parents know her. She works, cooks, bear children for you. Best of all, she guarantees to satisfy you.

Seriously, we should be thankful for Steam (I dont see people complain during games sale). Maybe she is a b**** sometimes, but she is your b****.

I'm a big steam supporter but "... we should be thankful..."???!?!

They are a corporation. We are the consumers. Their job is to give US what WE want. In return we PAY them. The last thing we need to be is "..thankful..".

that's what TB was trying to say as well...
we dun owe them anything but rather we as consumers are supposed to judge on a case by case basis...
no such thing as goodwill jz because of the past...

then again, it is hopeless to reason with fanboys...
same as the infamous console-wars back then (which actually died down when people decided to just pick the console for their games rather than fanboyism on only 1)

I'll be honest, I didn't watch the video. Sorry.. hehe...

But I spoke up because I'm kinda allergic to the word "thankful". If I get something that I didn't earn/work for, then yes I'm thankful. But fair is fair with Steam. I'm happy with their services and they are happy with my hard earned money.

Mana fanbois? Why I no see one?

Oh btw, the word thankful is too much la.

what u said was brought up by TB =)

was referring to the video

oh. Internets.

The good that Valve did:
They make gaming so much affordable. I will ne paying 50USD for Fallout 3 GOTY last week instead of 5USD if not because of Steam. Also a lot of indie developers would never achieve what they are today if not because of Steam.

The bad that Valve do:
Free to play TF2 discourage developers from trying to create games based on the same game play because it is very hard to compete with something that has similar gameplay and free. Best example to refer to is Brink and SMNC, Brink even though released with a lot of bugs, people can't deny that it is a good game. If TF2 has the same price tag as Brink, Brink might have a higher chance to make it instead of getting sentenced to death in 2 months.

SMNC even though is a TPS MOBA style game, got compared to TF2 a lot at earlier stage because of the the style that resembles TF2, naturally people starts bashing it due to its matchmaking system that some time takes up to 10mins to find a game and the weekly character swapping instead of having all characters free to play, not to mention a few bugs and imbalance in game with certain products like Massive Air.

I left Dota 2 out because of the nature of the game that only offer 1 map to play on with multiple choices of heroes. Unless some developer decides to take on the challenge to create multiple maps that has their own distinct feature and route for map rotation instead of the same 3 route on different terrain scheme, I see the genre to be best created free to play with micro transaction.

all dem b****es and whores, i want none of it!















she is totally chained to me

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Added on July 23, 2012, 4:37 pmin this thread ada a few la. but lets just ASSUME they are just trolling

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Jul 23 2012, 04:37 PM

I'm quite concern with the frequent sales on Steam. Some of the deals are huge. I think some people actually thought anything lower than 70% off is not a good deal, and lost interest. This is slightly devalued the game. Look how fast Max Payne 3 already chopped 50% of it's retail price. But for customer, surely it's a win situation for them. But this is just a small concern. I'm a casual gamer, not a game developer.

This post has been edited by Angel of Deth: Jul 23 2012, 05:14 PM

Yea, thats true, as some of the games, notably La Noire, Alan Wake franchise pack and a couple of other games are way too cheap in this sale. As much as i dislike EA with their "cheap sales like 75% off cheapens an IP", i hate to admit that i agree with that statement.

aye and deus ex human revolution as well.

I think this make it real hard for retailer and retail shop to compete. They can't afford to lowered their price like Steam. It's like double edged sword. So yeah, it's good business for customer and Valve. But what about the whole industry? Especially retailers, like TSB, Pbbseller. Another thing, since the price is so cheap, people will buy everything on low price without even touch them. This in my opinion, will degrade the franchise / IP quality in the future. Developer and publisher will focus on how to make most money from their IP instead of improving and innovate the game.

big sales for every game does not happen everyday.

anyway Pbbseller is a very bad example.
he is doing his part extremely well in killing off other retailers by selling his smuggled goods for ridiculous low prices.

Not often but twice to thrice time a year (Summer, Halloween, and Winter etc) thanks to Steam will definitely affect their price planning. As much as I like Steam and glorious discounts, I do think the pricing of new games are dropping far faster than how it used to be - and in some likelihood, I would assume Steam have something to do with it.

@Pbbseller point; hahaha, if that's true, I think sooner or later there will be a new thread with the topic "The impending "problem" with Pbbseller" as well.

Agreed on all counts (except for the Explosions in the Sky part, their last album kinda sucked).

Aren't the discounts all set by the publishers themselves? I'm pretty sure LA Noire's firesales are all due to Rockstar trying to recoup their R&D budget blown on the management failures that ran Team Bondi.

well it is a dog eat dog world out there.

Lets not forget.
if u buy a game from retailer, u pay the retailer, logistics, record company, paper printing so on. All these cost money.

With Steam/digital distribution only, the developer and the content distributor(steam) are the only ones earn ur money.

that means selling @ $50 in steam actually give more money to the developer than selling $60 physical copy across the world. This is part of the reason why Steam/developer can give -75% discount to digital copies, because they basically bypass all these retailer.

now to ask me, do I need my money goes to retailer? no, why? cos I prefer my money goes more to the developer to support the developer for future sequels.

I do not see how selling cheap, cheapens IP. Diablo 3 are selling at high price, it still sucky.

Selling cheap does not affect creativity and innovation, it is the total revenue u earn that affect u, Selling 10 digital copies @ $60 does not get u more money than selling $100 copies @ 10bucks. It is about maximize the revenue so the developer is capable to hire talent people to innovate good things for the next release.