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 Inverter vs Non Inverter Aircon ., Really save electricity ?

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SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 27 2012, 11:57 AM

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QUOTE(radver @ Jun 26 2012, 10:27 PM)
I had the same dilemma last year when i was choosing air cond.

What I was told by the air cond technician is that, unless you on the air cond for around 10 hrs or long periods of time, there is no difference between them.


Because from what I understand, inverter saves electricity by maintaining the temperature through constantly cooling and running at low power.

While non inverter air cond maintains the temperature by cooling it down to the desired level, stops cooling and will only start cooling again after the temperature rises to a certain level.

This act of cooling and stopping takes up a lot of electricity, as more electricity is needed to restart the cooling as compared to running the cooling at low power continuously.

Thats what I understand, please correct me if I'm wrong...

So if you're just using for your living room, there should be no need for an inverter. Plus the price difference between inverter and non inverter is not exactly small.

As for brand, my recommendation would be PANASONIC. Its more expensive compare to the rest but each of them have lasted at least 10 yrs before breaking down and requiring extensive repair. When that time came, I just bought a new one...

Currently for my house I bought 5 air cond, all PANASONIC. 3 unit 1.5 hp and 2 unit 1 hp. 2 unit 1.5 hp in the living room and 1 unit 1.5 hp in the master bedrooom. Electric bill stands at around RM200-300, no tampering of my power meter.
My neighbor using dunno what brand, dunno how he use, he is complaining of paying RM800 a month.

And please take note, normal house circuit only can take total 4 hp of air cond running at any one time.
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The more correct way of saying is "Inverter air cond will save electricity IF there are frequent stop-start situation".

Example:
1. Tiny air cond in very big room. No stop-start situation so no saving.
2. Big air cond in small room. Frequent stop-start situation so save lots of electricity

SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 27 2012, 01:40 PM

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QUOTE(Drian @ Jun 27 2012, 01:27 PM)
For inverter to be cheaper than the equivalent non inverter, it must fulfill a few condition:-
Use more than 8 hours a day. Less than that the savings that you get cannot cover the difference in cost.
If you do not fulfill condition 2 and 3 below, you can run it 24/7 continuously non-stop and still not save a single sen of electricity. In fact, you will actually spend 10% more on electricity compared to non-inverter because Inverter have to convert AC electricity to DC and there is a 10% lost.
2.) 25-27c. If you go too low, the inverter will be at maximum power all the time and you will not get any benefits from it.

3.)Appropriately sized. Similar to above, if you use too small of a aircond , then it will be at maximum power all the time to cool your room and therefore no saving benefits.

Generally people will use inverter for bedrooms and non inverters for living rooms.
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SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 27 2012, 07:13 PM

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No need for lengthy write-up. Just have to remember 1 thing.

Inverter ONLY save money when there are stop-start situation.


1. The more often the stop-start situation, the more money saved.
2. If there are no stop-start situation, zero money saved. In fact, more money spend.

SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 27 2012, 11:03 PM

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QUOTE(ozak @ Jun 27 2012, 09:56 PM)
Here my actual experience. First aircon is panasonic non inverter 1hp using 8hr for sleep. Bill average rm110. Run  about 8-9yrs before it finally spoil.

Replace a new Panasonic inverter 1.5hp. Same usage. Bill cost me average rm70. Already running 5yrs till now.

First yrs already get back my return compare non inverter. Base on the last time bill and current bill. 5yrs now I already save rm2400. The save Can use for service the aircon many many time.

No matter how many hr using, it still save. Long or short. Sometime I find you guy are very slow to adopt the technology which is already more than 10yrs old. And still undecided it now.  hmm.gif
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You tell us how big the room etc. For what you described to be possible, your air cond must be big enough for the room. Tiny air cond in big room not possible


SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 28 2012, 06:39 AM

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QUOTE(ozak @ Jun 28 2012, 12:41 AM)
My room is about 180ft2.

One thing I learn is, size the aircon according to the room size. Not your wallet size. smile.gif
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Assuming your ceiling is 9 ft, that means the room's volume is 1620 cubic ft. That requires an air cond of about 9720 btu. Your air cond is 13000btu. Your air cond is actually much bigger than the requirement. In situation like this, there will be VERY frequent stop-start operation. So you are guaranteed to save money by installing an inverter.

Just remember one thing: Inverter ONLY save money if there are stop-start operation. Period.

SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 28 2012, 09:56 AM

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QUOTE(ozak @ Jun 28 2012, 09:01 AM)
It is not just the inverter. The size of the aircon too.

The start stop is depend on the weather. When there is hot weather, the aircon run more. I can tell because I put it into auto mode.

The amount $ I save is already can buy another unit. So why you guys still doubt about inverter?
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Assuming, instead of 180sq ft, your is 500 sq ft instead with 1.5HP air cond. If you use Inverter, you will actually ended up using 10% more electricity than a non-inverter air cond. So using wrong size air cond will not save money.


Added on June 28, 2012, 10:40 am
QUOTE(nitromx @ Jun 28 2012, 09:22 AM)
can advice how many HPs and Inverter or not for my living room?
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I think you need over 30,000 BTU.

If you only fit one unit of 24000 or 27000btu, just get the non-inverter.

If you are going to fit 2 units of 18000 + 18000, inverter should work for you.

My 2 sen.



This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Jun 28 2012, 10:40 AM
SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 28 2012, 12:18 PM

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QUOTE(lingleeyen @ Jun 28 2012, 12:12 PM)
18000btu/h per unit is too much la. Get 2 units of 15000btu/h AC. Total 36000 btu/h is overkill. Inverter or non inverter you look at how is your usage. 9000btu/h equals to 1HP.
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Unless budget restraint, my view is, better to have too much/big than have too little/small. With too much, you can always turn it down but not the other way up.

And beside, I think 30,000 is the minimum so best be more conservative. My calculation ranges from 30,000 BTU to 35,000 BTU but I don't know which is the accurate ones.


This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Jun 28 2012, 12:22 PM
SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 28 2012, 12:38 PM

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QUOTE(lingleeyen @ Jun 28 2012, 12:33 PM)
My calculation goes to a slight bit less than 32,000 btu/h. It is really his preference. For me I will go for 2 units of 15,000 btu/h unit. I personally believe that it is enough. Optimise what I need and save on my wallet.
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There are several variables and I notice this is for living room. You may need the bigger 35000BTU if:
1. There are constant people moving in and out of the room.
2. Lots of sunlight coming into room
3. More people in living room compared to bedroom.
4. Extra heat from big Plasma TV
5. Huge Class A heat generating amplifier for HiFi
etc


SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 28 2012, 12:50 PM

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QUOTE(lingleeyen @ Jun 28 2012, 12:46 PM)
Of course there will be. 

1. There are constant people moving in and out of the room. - We do not know that. How often do we see people go open the front door of the living room? I suppose more often the bedroom
2. Lots of sunlight coming into room - My calculation is facing east in the evening Sorry. I don't understand. What do you mean by only facing east in the evening? What about morning?
3. More people in living room compared to bedroom. - My calculation is based on 4 people in the room
4. Extra heat from big Plasma TV - My calculation is based on the usage of 600 Watt electrical appliances
5. Huge Class A heat generating amplifier for HiFi - I did not consider that
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I think only the person asking the question can answer those.

This post has been edited by Optiplex330: Jun 28 2012, 12:50 PM
SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 28 2012, 01:36 PM

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QUOTE(lingleeyen @ Jun 28 2012, 01:05 PM)
Huh? Lots of people going in and out from your living room? Only hotel has that in a lobby. Your occupants don't sit around the house but go out and in all the time? I go in and out from my bedroom quite often. More often than going out from my living room to my porch.

During the morning, heat from sun is lesser than of the evening. If the living room is facing the east, during sunset, the heat will go to either the kitchen or else where. Living room will be spared. I put the room facing east as a buffer, since the best/ not hot situation will be the room either facing north or south (sun will go from east to west without direct light going into the house). Worst case will the room facing west, and I hope that this living room is not.
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See..everybody is different. I go in and out of living room often. Sometime to the garden to water the plant. Sometime throw rubbish etc. As for bedroom, only go in at night at bedtime to sleep and I don't sleep walk. As to what the person who posted that question did, have to ask him.

Your post "My calculation is facing east in the evening". It confuses me. Why only face east in the evening? Does it means during the morning, it faces West? Hence my question. For me, those facing West and hence full force of the hot afternoon sun is the worst for air cond.

SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 28 2012, 06:07 PM

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QUOTE(lingleeyen @ Jun 28 2012, 02:37 PM)
At full load it is. Some inverter with different brand runs more than 70, some less.
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Which brand Inverter, in you view, is the best? And how would you rate York's Y series?

SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 28 2012, 09:36 PM

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QUOTE(lingleeyen @ Jun 28 2012, 09:07 PM)
In my view, there is no best inverter, no best AC. All AC works with the same principle. It is not like your AC can fly. ACs are backed with brands and so called recommedations. All AC has fair share of problems. Some ones recommendation is another condamnation.

You can only bet. Bet that it will last, bet that the catalogue value is what it claimed to be, bet that the service or installer knows what he is doing, bet that the additional functions actually works the way you wanted, bet that the after sales service is good.

How to bet, place your bets on the big brands. Not something like Media, i, Koolman.
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I don't bother with lesser brand. I am only interested in
1. Daikin. I am concern of their using R22 gas which may be less available in future.
2. York. They are using R410. So are their Y series using Daikin's technology?
3. Panasonic.


SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 28 2012, 10:31 PM

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QUOTE(lingleeyen @ Jun 28 2012, 09:46 PM)
.......I lost of words with this explanation.


Added on June 28, 2012, 9:50 pm
biggrin.gif I am pretty sure that you have already select your brand. So why not go with it leh?

York is not Daikin, Daikin is not York. Daikin under Daikin Corp. York under JCI.
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In 2006, the OYL Group became part of Daikin Industries Ltd of Japan, hence my asking.
http://www.oyl.com.my/


SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 29 2012, 09:21 AM

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QUOTE(lingleeyen @ Jun 29 2012, 07:58 AM)
Yup, OYL Group was acquired by Daikin at that time. The only link they have with York is Group Associated and OYLC. GA is a sales entity/ sales office. They sell York Room Air Cond and Package Air Cond in Malaysia. Another subsidary of OYL Group is OYL Condair. They are the manufacturer of Chillers, Air handlers, fan coil, mainly on the commercial side of Air Conditioner under York brand, because this subsidary is a joint venture between OYL and JCI. Daikin does not control the manufacturing side of York RAC. York is under Johnson Controls International.
Meaning to say, there are no technology transfer between Daikin and York? I was hoping there is. I am very happy with York non-inverter and just don't know about their inverter type good or not.

One thing I couldn't understand. York's L series 24000btu has poor EER compared to Panasonic whereas those with smaller btu are as good or better than Panasonic. Any idea why?


SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 29 2012, 10:00 AM

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QUOTE(lingleeyen @ Jun 29 2012, 09:55 AM)
I believe that there is no technology transfer between Daikin and York for the RAC. Generally, the York Non Inverter is much better than Pana. Cheaper too. Inverter type, York loose out a little. I have no idea why the EER is poor for a certain range. There can be the development direction. So pick the best out of the brands. Don't just stick to one brand.
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Yes, I would say so because I find Pana's quality has been going down. And like I said earlier, I am very happy with York's non-inverter.

I am looking for a inverter in the 1500btu to 18000 btu range for the bedroom for use at night. Any recommendation?
SUSOptiplex330
post Apr 3 2015, 02:20 PM

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QUOTE(askm3 @ Apr 2 2015, 05:10 PM)
Changed my old 1hp National x 2 units (7-8yr old) to Panasonic Econavi Inverter.

Usage : 9-10hrs/daily x 2 units

Previous TNB bill : RM350-450/monthly
Now : RM250-280/monthly

Months after that, TNB came over to check meter, suspect I temper my meter..

So, I would say. It's really works.

I'm not air-cond seller or promoting anything, just a honest & satisfied user.
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It's normal to be skeptical about saving claim. But with Inverter (assuming you know how to choose one), the saving is REAL.

Beside money saving, the comfort is unbelievable. So quiet. Temperature so stable.....

SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 20 2015, 11:37 AM

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QUOTE(iXora.ix @ Jun 20 2015, 01:05 AM)
Haha , i iz nerd .
So go for inverter or non?
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Bedroom, definitely non-invertor. But don't under-size the air cond.

Big sitting room, probably not. Depends on more details like how big the room, how open the room, how big the air cond etc.
SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 22 2015, 05:18 PM

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QUOTE(iXora.ix @ Jun 21 2015, 12:42 PM)

Its a bedroom. I only turn on the old air cond when need and only for 2-3 hour to make sure the room is cold enough and turn off already  tongue.gif

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Why do you want to switch it off?

With Invertor, it will stick to the exact temperature you set it to.

This is unlike non-invertor whereby it can get too cold sometime and too hot other time, inverto5r can give you CONSTANT temperature. That's the beauty of Invertor.



SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 24 2015, 04:31 PM

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QUOTE(iXora.ix @ Jun 22 2015, 10:17 PM)
Since normal aircond use plenty of current instead of inverter, thats why I just use for 2-3 hour, just to ensure the room is cool enough to sleep with laugh.gif  sweat.gif
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Say you set it at 25 deg C. Once temperature have been reached, Invertor uses little electricity. That's the beauty of Invertor.

SUSOptiplex330
post Jun 24 2015, 06:01 PM

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QUOTE(iXora.ix @ Jun 24 2015, 05:21 PM)
I see. now I get the picture  sweat.gif  Need to hunt some brand out there. at my area most of then ada sharp lg pana samsang je. daikin M cry.gif e they dont carry
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Assuming you get the RIGHT sized Invertor air cond for your bedroom and set temperature at 25 or 24 deg, you can expect power consumption to be reduced by at least 40 %. That's a lot of money saved.




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