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English Clubs Liverpool FC- The Kop Talk 2012, Bye Dirk Kuyt!

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led_zep_freak
post May 23 2012, 01:13 PM

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I believe what sealed AVB's fate at Chelsea was that he tried to change everything too soon. Players like Terry, Lampard and Drogba were still influential in the club and it didn't help that he stepped on their toes. Some of the stories of his "man-management" are shocking to say the least.

But do I think he's a bad manager? Nah. We have to remember that he's only 33 and the only major club he has managed was Porto. The Chelsea job was a step too far for him but he will learn from it.

Should we go for him or Martinez as manager, the appointment of the DOF will be far more critical. It makes more sense for us to go for a senior figure such as Van Gaal or Cruyff for the DOF role. The DOF will be responsible to lay down his vision or system for the club and everybody from the 1st team coach to the academy director will implement it. If the DOF is an advocate of Total Football, then the club at every tier - scouts, academy, reserves, and first team - will apply the principles of Total Football. If a LB is to play a certain way in the system, all LBs scouted, groomed, bought would fit the requirement.

Up until yesterday, there was virtually no rumours on the appointment of DOF. I do hope this is because FSG are indeed making decisions behind closed doors and using the manager interviews as smokescreen. After all for this system to work, the manager must be able to work with the DOF and not the other way round. This is why I'm not expecting any announcement of the manager soon, not before we've replaced Comolli. This is also why we should give up any hope that Rafa will return to the club.

It's ambitious and definitely admirable should FSG be willing to undertake the biggest revamp (Bear in mind though we would probably not winning anything major for the next 2-3 years and the positive effects of can only be felt long after it's implemented.) in the club since Shankly. However, the question remains, the key part of this revamp is in the personnel and execution. Get it right and we are set for the long term. Get it horribly wrong and we will back to where we are currently.

My 2 cents worth, sorry for being a bit disjointed with my points.
led_zep_freak
post May 23 2012, 03:14 PM

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QUOTE(Petre @ May 23 2012, 03:05 PM)
i dont see any manager young or old would like to tolerate being told whom to sign and whom to play, aint it?
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The manager will still have the authority to sign the players he wants, but the player has to fit the system or the philosophy so to speak. The difference is that, the philosophy is implemented by the dof rather than the manager. With all the managers we've had before, everything falls under the manager. Moving forward, this will not be the case.
led_zep_freak
post May 23 2012, 04:02 PM

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QUOTE(hfi @ May 23 2012, 03:52 PM)
If the DOF is a respectable football individual then it has a good chance too succeed. But if it's some glorified scout or a commercial guy then it can be a major problem.
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Yes, which is why the DOF appointment is much more critical than the manager. Not only he has to be someone who understands the inner workings of a successful club, he also needs to be experienced enough to oversee the progress.
led_zep_freak
post May 23 2012, 04:49 PM

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Here's an article on the difference in football club structure in England and Spain/Italy, written by Rafa himself in January. Click on source page for diagrams.

Source:http://www.rafabenitez.com/web/index.php?act=mostrarBlog&id_entrada=57&idioma=in
QUOTE
A Football Club’s Structure – Rafa Benitez’s view

I have always maintained that those of us who work in football are privileged. And that’s because we get paid for a job we love and are passionate about. And in my case, I have been lucky enough to have worked in different countries, to have observed different cultures and ways of working, to have benefited from those experiences and this gives me, I believe, some idea of being able to analyse things from a different perspective, from the outside.

When certain people talk about signings, and how to go about them, the market value of players, the reasons why you buy or sell a player, you can see that some of them don’t really know the true situation which can be very confusing for the fans. So in this article I will try to explain my point of view based on my experience.

Obviously I will try to focus on my area of responsibility in the club. That is the football, the playing direction given by the manager or the coach as the case may be.

Club Structure

What you first need to establish when you go to a new club are the aims of the club and the resources available to achieve them. So it is essential to analyse in depth the club organisation, its management structure and their different functions especially if you are in a foreign country.
The rules, the fixture list, the squad, the staff at the club and their roles, the situation regarding players contracts, the environment, the culture, the club tradition… knowledge of all these are essential to being able to take the right decisions. At least for those who are depending on you.

In Spain or Italy there is usually a ‘Director of Football’ or ‘Chief Scout’ who in theory is responsible for signing the Coach and putting the squad together. In the majority of cases, though not all, they usually consult the man in charge at the time, but in many other cases the President or owner, who is in charge of everything, has the last say.




(The 2 diagrams are only examples as there are many different structures).

In England though, it is the Manager who, also in theory, is responsible for the football, and therefore has the authority to decide how to put the squad together.




In practice, both types of structure depend on one premise: the money available for transfers and salaries. The ‘Manager’ on the one hand, or the Coach on the other, will have to consider the inescapable fact that they can sign only the three or four players on their list. That’s how it is. At least in the case of the ‘Manager’ he can choose the ones he wants.

Make-up of the Squad

As the man in charge of the technical side, you have to decide on the model of play, how you want the team to express itself on the pitch, or at least how you would like them to play. It is important to get to know your players, to talk to them so they can give you information on the composition of the squad and then you have to try to complement it with players who can enhance it and put in to practice what you want to do on the pitch. If you can’t do this, you will have to adapt and trust that they will give you support when you need it.

Then you have the rules governing contracts in each country, and they are also different for teams competing in International competitions. There are leagues where it is compulsory to play at least 5 players from that country, others where there is a limit on foreign signings, and others where there is an ‘A’ and ‘B’ list of players…In the end, each country, each league, has its own peculiarities and you have to know them thoroughly and above all digest them quickly before you put the squad together and / or tweak it.

This is where the plan, the football project, comes in to play, and with owners from the world of business coming in to football, you can only call it a Business Plan. Again I will refer to my own experience. When I went to Italy there was no ‘business plan’. I was only told about it on the last day of the transfer window, when they suddenly and surprisingly said that we were going to follow the ‘Financial Fair Play’ initiative. I will leave it there. In Spain, the continuous dialogue with club officials keeps you up to date on the economic constraints so you know where you are. Although once, I found myself with a surprise signing of a striker by the President on the last day in August because, as he was on loan, he was cheap.

In England, specifically at Liverpool during my first 3 seasons, the Chairman and the Chief Executive kept me informed of the restrictions and options that we had. Later on though, the club structure changed, and over time, ‘business plans’ became more and more important than any football project when it came to making decisions.

Something that should not be forgotten is the analysis of the Academy. Incorporating local players always gives more affinity with the club and sensibly reduces costs. In Italy and Spain the organisation depends on the ‘sporting director’ and the Coach has little input in to it. Nevertheless, in England it can be the case, as happened at Liverpool in my last year, that the Manager has control over the youth system and can follow a style of play in all age groups and with more continuity. Barcelona’s model is popular right now. There is no better or more evident example.

If there are no players at youth level in the club who have the requisite ability, you have to resort to the transfer market.

The ‘sporting director’ or the Manager has to manage a transfer Budget, and on top of that, take players’ wages in to account. A good scouting system is necessary and essential, although not infallible, and the money available in both cases will affect the market you can access. The income from selling and net spend are more important for the Manager than the Coach. The former tries to consider the future of the club and win at the same time. The latter, the way football is going, only tries to win and cost has less importance.

Rules and specific types of organisation

What also has to be considered are different International regulations. Usually the required list of available players is restricted to 25 for the first team and in some countries, like Spain, you can use youth players for up to 5 matches, after which the player has to be included in the first team squad.
In England, you can use the Reserves, which we used to try to develop youngsters by gaining experience so they could move up to the first team. Then you have the U18s. Some of these players, especially if they are coming from abroad, must have professional contracts or you run the risk of losing them to other clubs. This was what people often talked about when I was at Liverpool, either through ignorance or ‘bad faith’, that we signed a lot of players when in actual fact many of them were for the younger age groups and some of them I did not know. In Spain, these signings who join the second team or the youth teams are not considered signings for the first team. And it is the same in Italy.

Champions League Rules and Regulations

Another set of rules that, unfortunately, we always had to take in to account was the local players and home country players for Champions League list. This number has now reached 4 players brought through the club Academy and 4 players of the home country. If you have spent 3 years at the club before you reach 21, you are considered local.
Again there are differences. As Coach, if you can, you plan for your team and the sporting director plans for the squad. But as a Manager you have to plan for the future of the club. At Liverpool one of our priorities was to bring players from abroad and sign them 3 years before they reached 21, like Ayala, Pacheco or Insua. In that way, under the rules at the time, they would be considered local players, saving money in transfers and contracts, with the possibility of including them on the Champions League list. In Spain and Europe in general, as a coach, you are only involved in future planning if you keep winning and you are allowed to stay a few years. Few manage to do it.
As always, these are opinions emanating from my experience and they look to provide football fans and people who follow our website with views from a different perspective, another point of view which maybe they have not been aware of. Finally, a thought that keeps occurring to me is that although you hear something repeatedly, it is not necessarily the truth.


This post has been edited by led_zep_freak: May 23 2012, 04:58 PM
led_zep_freak
post May 23 2012, 05:48 PM

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QUOTE(madmoz @ May 23 2012, 05:43 PM)
I would think that if Rafa gets overlooked or doesn't even make the shortlist for our managerial vacancy, he can probably kiss his management career goodbye. Sadly.

Unemployed foreign manager with good rapport with the club and the support of at least half of her supporters, currently living in the city and with good credentials.

If that doesn't give him a foot in the door, he better stat getting used to writing those blog posts hmm.gif
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Just because he doesn't fit with the owners' vision, it doesn't mean he's not wanted elsewhere. He has claimed that he has received offers elsewhere but wanted to stay in England, but how many top English clubs are looking for a manager? I won't be surprised if he is associated with Chelsea soon.

Personally I think he deserve to be in that shortlisted candidate list, but can only speculate whatever's going on in the Liverpool boardroom.
led_zep_freak
post May 23 2012, 06:05 PM

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QUOTE(Burningsunz @ May 23 2012, 05:36 PM)
we all knew he came out with this statement is because he know that fans are pissed, so he came out with this statement to calm us down abit and to divert the attention on who will be our next manager.
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Apparently there were rumours that the club's trying to buy up properties around Anfield, thus suggesting that we will be redeveloping Anfield rather than building a new stadium.

QUOTE(koolspyda @ May 23 2012, 05:55 PM)
If the final 2 boils down to AVB or Martinez, What are the call favors here??
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AVB


Added on May 23, 2012, 6:08 pm
QUOTE(madmoz @ May 23 2012, 06:01 PM)
Rafa seems to be moving to the more technical or 'upstairs' role methinks.

Or perhaps he is still holding out to get his seat back.
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Nah, he still discuss a lot on tactics and stuff in his interviews/blogs. It's too early for him to give up something like that. biggrin.gif It's like asking a chess player to stop playing chess and start mentoring. I'm sure he misses outsmarting Europe's best.

This post has been edited by led_zep_freak: May 23 2012, 06:08 PM
led_zep_freak
post May 24 2012, 12:14 AM

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QUOTE(digilife @ May 23 2012, 11:52 PM)
Harry Redknapp has emerged as a shock target to become Liverpool’s new manager. Standard Sport understands that the Merseyside club are considering making a move for the 65-year-old having sacked Kenny Dalglish last week.
Redknapp is believed to have shot up their wish-list after Frank de Boer, Jurgen Klopp, Didier Deschamps and Brendan Rodgers ruled themselves out of the running.
Liverpool still have some candidates interested in the job, including former Chelsea manager Andre Villas-Boas, ex-England boss Fabio Capello, Wigan coach Roberto Martinez as well as former Reds manager Rafael Benitez.

sos
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By now I think journalists are pulling things out of their arse. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

It won't be long before we're linked with Martin O'Neill, Sam Allardyce, Steve Bruce, Steve Kean, David Moyes blah blah blah... Can't these football journalists go for a holiday at these times? doh.gif
led_zep_freak
post May 24 2012, 11:32 PM

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We've appointed the Commercial Director (Billy Hogan) and Director of Communications (Jen Chang).

Hopefully FSG will be wrapping up the search for DOF and manager in the next 2 weeks.
led_zep_freak
post May 28 2012, 11:36 AM

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Just read the Henchoz Twitter interview on the official website, seems like Martinez gets mentioned a lot that you would mistaken it for a Martinez PR exercise. It's almost as if he is officially our manager.
led_zep_freak
post May 31 2012, 12:33 AM

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Lol even his wiki page is updated as Liverpool manager. Who knows he might bring some decent Swansea players over such as Sinclair.

Anyway it's not official until it's announced on lfc.tv. Will wait for it.
led_zep_freak
post May 31 2012, 11:31 AM

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I remember watching the match against Swansea at Anfield. They played really well and at times schooled us with their own pass-and-move routine. Moreover, they did it without their best player in an away ground. Rafa's Valencia deja vu anybody?

To be honest, I'm on the fence with the appointment of Rodgers. It's a risky appointment but at the same time, it could be an exciting one. He definitely needs 2-3 seasons to get things going, hopefully the owners and fans are prepared to give him that.
led_zep_freak
post May 31 2012, 11:36 AM

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QUOTE
For those of you watching on telly, Liverpool are the ones with the ball
by Roy Henderson // 30 May 2012

AND so it would appear (time of writing 2.15pm, Wed 30th May 2012) that Brendan ‘B-Rod’ Rodgers will be the new manager of Liverpool Football Club. Jorge Valdano will be pleased.

“I remember a wonderful banner in the Liverpool stands from the days when TV was in black and white – it read: ‘For those of you watching on telly, Liverpool are the ones with the ball’. I used to support Liverpool just for that.
- Jorge Valdano

Brendan Rodgers likes the ball. And he likes control.

This is a good appointment, and having experienced something akin to mourning but a couple of weeks ago upon hearing the news of Kenny’s sacking, I’m happy to admit that, having thought things through, the club have gone with the bloke I wanted. Whether it’s through considered analysis and design is another matter… but even if they’ve stumbled on this solution, I think it’s the right one.

I use the word ‘solution’, because only a few weeks back I gave my views on what Liverpool’s problem was. I had hoped the club would back him to fix it himself, of course, but it wasn’t to be (and it may well be we lost something significant in the process – time will tell). The problem, to paraphrase it as I saw it, was that we lacked control. Its symptoms were as follows.
1. Tactical incoherence.
2. Poor decision making with the ball.
3. Players somehow forgetting how to finish.

The way to fix it? Well, it’s self-indulgent, but it illustrates my point, so here goes – a wee quote from myself in my last post on the subject.

Establish that tactical coherence, and the whole side gets a little calmer. When the whole side’s a little calmer, the decision making tends to get a little better. When you’re more controlled and dominant, and you’re less worried what will happen if you lose the ball in transition, you tend to make better choices. And when you’re making better choices, and those choices are happening within a coherent and balanced tactical framework, your game gets that little bit more ruthless. And we just need to be that crucial little bit more ruthless.

As I saw it, there were two routes to that tactical coherence. Either you bought or blooded another player like Lucas, or you changed the system to introduce what losing him deprived you of.

Well, Rodgers is the man when it comes to control. And he’s fresh from demonstrating his ability to exert it even with a squad full of supposedly ‘limited’ players. Without the ball, his Swansea side has shown energy and aggression, tactical and positional savvy (both individually and collectively), and admirable balance. They’re well drilled off the ball, and not in a passive way – the approach we came to loathe under Hodgson.
Meanwhile, Rodgers loves the ball. He’s greedy for it, and he wants his sides to monopolise its possession. That’s Liverpool football – the kind Valdano fell for all those years ago.

People criticise his football, saying his side lacked penetration in the final third; but the capacity to hurt sides increases with quality and integration – the squad – all squads at all levels – need to learn how to play what is the most ambitious mode of football a coach can try to implement, particularly when resources are limited. Play this brand of controlling football with a defensive unit that’s already arguably the best in its division, and with attacking resouces that, let’s face it, dwarf those Swansea had at their disposal… well, we’ll see, won’t we?

I’m quietly excited by the appointment. I just hope the structure being put in place enables the kind of approach to the game I personally yearn for at the club, as discussed in the following articles (again, self-indulgent, but it’s a drum I’ve been banging for a very long time).

The Only True Moneyball Strategy Available
Stupid Football
We’re Not Spanish We Are Scouse

Good luck Brendan.

Source: http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2012/05/for-...s-with-the-ball

led_zep_freak
post May 31 2012, 12:00 PM

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hfi, I really like the RAWK thread you posted earlier. He talks a lot about movement with and without the ball in addition to tactical discipline when without possession. He values workrate and like Rafa, emphasizes on control in games. He obviously loves the tiki-taka of Barca and have successfully implemented it in Swansea to a good extend. Whether it translates to a huge club like Liverpool remains to be seen, but I can't wait for the next season already.

Screw the Euros anyway. laugh.gif

Edit:
I like this particular bit:
“Here’s another example. We were 2-0 up away at Wolves with six minutes to go but we failed to manage the pressure. We stopped playing it out from the back. We kicked the ball long and they got it and just smashed straight back into our box. Eventually we drew 2-2 and the players were devastated.

"I told them we needed to learn the six-minute game.

“The following week we worked on managing the pressure. But with the ball. Lo and behold the next game we are at Bolton. We are 2-0 up. With 17 minutes to go they go 2-1. You could sense the nerves in the crowd.

"How were we going to deal with it? For 10 minutes Bolton did not get a kick of the ball and, eventually, we got the goal to win 3-1.

"Afterwards in the dressing room it was fantastic — that was how to manage pressure. When they had the momentum we sucked the life out of them.

“Our idea is to pass teams to a standstill so they can no longer come after you. Eventually you wear them down.


This post has been edited by led_zep_freak: May 31 2012, 12:04 PM
led_zep_freak
post May 31 2012, 12:09 PM

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QUOTE(sahathai @ May 31 2012, 12:05 PM)
could never replace the KING.. but it's good that finally we got a manager who love short passes and pacey wingers... by wanting the like of martinez n brendan, it seems  like the owner knows more about tactical football than we expected. the problem is what kind of player that he could and would bring in...
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I think we're too engrossed with who we are bringing in but rather we should be asking, "Who are we keeping?"

We have a good spine to work on with Reina, Enrique, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Gerrard, Lucas, Suarez. Throw in players like Carroll, Henderson, Bellamy & Downing we have a decent squad. There are a few gaping holes in the squad (A right midfielder/winger, an attacking CM, backup LB & backup striker) but I believe the club is able to fill them up adequately.
led_zep_freak
post Jun 1 2012, 09:52 AM

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Amidst all news on the new manager, Warrior Football has launched their online store and they're offering free shirt printing (Premier League style only) for all men's shirt.
http://www.warriorfootballasia.com/default.aspx

Including shipping the shirt costs RM250. smile.gif

thumbup.gif thumbup.gif thumbup.gif
led_zep_freak
post Jun 1 2012, 09:56 AM

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QUOTE(Burningsunz @ Jun 1 2012, 01:05 AM)
Henderson has been called up to the england squad to replace lampard who has been ruled out due to injury
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As much as I think Hendo will make it as a Liverpool player, I doubt that's a wise choice. All it takes is a phone call to Michael Carrick, really. Not a great player, but much more dependable than Henderson.
led_zep_freak
post Jun 1 2012, 10:33 AM

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QUOTE(saif_bear @ Jun 1 2012, 10:08 AM)
Unluckily the name printing is same as Kitbag. PU/Sencilia not Lextra. But still a good price.  thumbup.gif
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Actually what's the difference between PU and Sencilia?

The Lextra is the one used by LFC Store right? I have one and it feels good.
led_zep_freak
post Jun 1 2012, 10:50 AM

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Honestly I rather we take those quotes with a pinch of salt. You don't see managers criticizing other managers openly, do you? If you start looking for quotes on Roy Hodgson, I bet you'll start believing we were right to appoint him.

To me, it's a bold move to appoint Brendan Rodgers as our manager. Whether he's capable to manage a huge club remains to be seen, so while we should afford him all the support we could, we need to give him time for the first 2 seasons in charge may be a bumpy one.

This post has been edited by led_zep_freak: Jun 1 2012, 10:54 AM
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post Jun 1 2012, 12:16 PM

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QUOTE(AnythingK @ Jun 1 2012, 12:04 PM)
LOL one phone call?  rclxms.gif  rclxms.gif
Its Carrick own self refuse to be in the standby list, Henderson and others are in the standby list which will replace someone in the first choice if anything happen.
If Roy decided to call up Carrick, so what is the purpose of making a standby list?
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It's a special situation isn't it? They are losing Gareth Barry, Frank Lampard and don't forget neither Scott Parker nor Steven Gerrard seem to be fully fit.

Carrick doesn't want to be in the standby list because he is frustrated for continuously being shunned by England managers. If you think that replacing Barry and Lampard with Jagielka and Henderson is the correct choice, by all means. But if Capello could pull Carra out of international retirement, I don't see why Roy couldn't do the same with Carrick.

This post has been edited by led_zep_freak: Jun 1 2012, 12:18 PM
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post Jun 1 2012, 02:23 PM

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QUOTE(mercury8400 @ Jun 1 2012, 02:12 PM)
Puhlease....Bredan roggers? I give him 6 months tops....another confirm Roy Hodgson...
Honestly I really don't think he has the tactical ability and capacity to manage a club like Liverpool.
Swansea is one thing, Liverpool is whole nather ball game.
Lost 5x in a row in Swansea, not a big problem
Lost 5x in a row in Liverpool, you're gonna get nailed by the press, supporters, shareholders and
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Well he has gotten a newly promoted League One club into the Premier League in his first season and then took them to 11th place in the first season of Premier League. That's an impressive feat no matter how you put it.

Of course, I agree with you that managing Liverpool is a whole different ball game, but your lack of faith is the very reason 'supporters' these days hammer managers after 5 loses. The club hasn't even announce his appointment and you're already hammering him. A bit of optimism won't hurt.

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