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 Gold investment corner v4, Will gold price achieve USD2000 by 2012?

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prophetjul
post Jan 29 2012, 02:28 PM

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QUOTE(doraemonkiller @ Jan 29 2012, 10:35 AM)
If 25 deduction that item is not for investment but collection. PK also have la bro...
Who say Dragon Pam is for investment?
Dear, do you understand the difference between numis coins and bars?
Just cos you paid 25% more at the jewellers does not make it numis.

The Pamp Dragon is no different from the Fortuna BARS...

Further more you can get it cheaper else where..................WHY would you wanna
pay at a highr price at the jewellers? biggrin.gif


Added on January 29, 2012, 2:30 pm
QUOTE(CoupD'Etat @ Jan 29 2012, 12:23 PM)
China do produce a lot of "limited edition" stuff for "investment"

likes "limited edition dragon gold coin, note , sheet etc " . But i feel it's very commercial for such stuff.
*
Aye

Like the Perth mint dragon 1 oz gold coin. Thats limited to 30,000 pieces.
These coins are numistatic in nature

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Jan 29 2012, 02:30 PM
prophetjul
post Jan 30 2012, 07:32 AM

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QUOTE(doraemonkiller @ Jan 29 2012, 11:16 PM)
When did I said about numis? Don't let me keep repeat my mesg until I vomit blood.
I never ask people to invest on pam dragon because not worth it at all. Why do u keep relate pamp dragon to investment?

Like what I said, PK gold bar and Tomei pamp swiss deduction is different with normal jewellery. Although their selling price is higher but the buy back price also higher. We always look at their dispersion in terms of percentage. Just like different bank have different rate and different dispersion percentage. If you still can't understand please just skip it and stop making fool of yourself.
*
First of all YOU are the one to recommend ppl to buy Pamp bars from jewellers which is sillly as i have
pointed out

QUOTE
QUOTE(doraemonkiller @ Jan 27 2012, 02:20 AM)
If you are not travelling around the world then get Poh Kong Gold Bar. No workmanship for 20 grams and above. Deduction should be the lowest among competitors like Tomei. free interest installment for 12 months which means you are paying the old price.

If you travel a lot and Malaysia is not a location that you will stay in the very soon future, then go for Tomei Swiss Pamp gold bar. No free ezypayment. Workmanship apply for every size.
The outcome always so sudden and beyond our expectation. We know that Malaysia current government does not apply good governance.
For me, I will invest on both to diversify and minimise the risk as low as possible.


Next later in response to me you said

QUOTE
QUOTE(doraemonkiller @ Jan 27 2012, 04:59 PM)
pam dragon is not for investment purpose la dear...


Dear.......

There are only two specs as far as investment in Pms are concerned, ie bullions and numis
If pamp dragon is a bar, it cannot be numis.
If you buy a bar and its not for investment, whats it for?

NOW

you say

QUOTE(doraemonkiller @ Jan 30 2012, 12:41 AM)
Not sure but prophetjul said it is 25%. Same like the normal jewellery.
*
It appears you are not even sure of the spread of buy/sell of the pamp bars by the jewellers!
Are you trying very hard to pay a premium of 25%?

IF SO, i will gladly sell my pamp bars to YOU for a premium of 20% above spot.......deal Dear? biggrin.gif


How many do you want?


prophetjul
post Jan 30 2012, 12:23 PM

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QUOTE(doraemonkiller @ Jan 30 2012, 12:00 PM)
Seriously. Do you know the difference of pamp swiss and pamp dragon. I never heard about pamp dragon until you mention it. Since you said pamp dragon trade in deduction is 25 percent it will be same like normal jewellery which it has to be melted after trade in. For pamp swiss and PK gold bar, it does not go through this process. That is why the deduction is lower.
If you buy the dragon pamp for investment then don't whine too much becoz of your stupidity. Whatever it call pamp, numis or bar, you have to look on their dispersion, risk and benefit.
*
Silly me.....the Pamp Fortuna and dragon are about the same price at the jewellers.
they are same bars issued by Pamp....Here for your eyes and learning experience....... biggrin.gif

user posted image

i will whine a lot for paying 25% more than what i should...espcially when i can aquire
that for 25% less compared with them jewellers that you touted.

Imagine if i invest Rm1mil. Thats Rm250k gone to your jewellers for NOTHING! whistling.gif

i guess its stoopid to wanna buy it less especially when its for investment........... rolleyes.gif

i guess a clever dude like you like to pay over the top for your investments............ biggrin.gif

SERIOUSL-y

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Jan 30 2012, 12:24 PM
prophetjul
post Jan 30 2012, 01:41 PM

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QUOTE(doraemonkiller @ Jan 30 2012, 01:08 PM)
Did I recommend this dragon pamp to anyone? You are the 1 who started this. You keep insist this item instead of the common pamp swiss. If the deduction is 25 percent (I not sure whether u get the right info), it will be more like collection instead of investment. If you are rich enough, you want pamp rabbit, pamp snake also can.
*
Why are you so worked up about the pamp dragon?

The prices for the common pamp fortuna at the jewellers are ALSO over the top.
Last time in asked it was like 25%.
So why do you wanna pay for that?

The point of all this is NEVER BUY GOLD BARS FROM JEWELLERS (which YOU recommended in a post)
because of the price.

Theres no pamp rabbit, pamp snake ........... whistling.gif


Added on January 30, 2012, 1:53 pmToday (145pm) the Fgjam gold price is RM198p gram
Thats translates into Rm6148p oz.

i can get the same for Rm5436.

Thats 13% lower..looks like its cheaper than the last time i asked.

Anyway you can get the same pamp fortuna at UOB at Rm5633 presently.....if stocks are avail.............


Added on January 30, 2012, 1:55 pmOr 1stopgold(disclaimer:i dont own this company)

selling at Rm176 p gram

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Jan 30 2012, 01:55 PM
prophetjul
post Jan 30 2012, 02:59 PM

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QUOTE(mois @ Jan 30 2012, 02:26 PM)
I got gold which i kept since 15 years ago mostly are jewelleries. But got 1 gold coin dated 1904. Was told the coin worth more than 10k. Where is the best way to sell the gold? Goldsmith will buy at low price which i dont want to sell to them
*
Not sure what you can do with the jewellery....try gold smelters?

What coin is that? Why do you think its worth >10k?
prophetjul
post Jan 30 2012, 09:53 PM

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QUOTE(doraemonkiller @ Jan 30 2012, 03:04 PM)
LMAO, I recommend PAMP swiss and PK gold bar instead of pamp dragon. When did I recommend Pamp dragon which have 25 deduction for trade in? If you want to compare selling price then please do compare buying back price for PK gold bar and Pamp swiss. Else don't show your stupidity here. Try to learn how to use dispersion percentage. Try how to include the cost of risk for every industry. Which industry will turn worse (higher risk) when economic facing recession issue.
I just asking everyone to diversify their investment instead of pooling all money to a single entity. This is to minimise their risk. I not the owner of bank nor jewellery shop but telling you the additional options for investment. If you do not know the picture of finance please just skip this and go do whatever you like.
Dont be a silly ass........

already told you pamp fortuna of dragon, its the same.
Whatever you tout , the idea is DONT BUY GOLD BARS FROM JEWELLERS.

YOU ASKED THE PERSON FEW PAGES BACK TO BUY PAMP BARS FROM JEWELLERS, SPECIFICALLY TOMEI.
DO YOU WANT ME TO POST THAT POST TO REMIND YOU? HERE YOU GO.......

QUOTE
QUOTE(doraemonkiller @ Jan 27 2012, 02:20 AM)
If you are not travelling around the world then get Poh Kong Gold Bar. No workmanship for 20 grams and above. Deduction should be the lowest among competitors like Tomei. free interest installment for 12 months which means you are paying the old price.

If you travel a lot and Malaysia is not a location that you will stay in the very soon future, then go for Tomei Swiss Pamp gold bar. No free ezypayment. Workmanship apply for every size.
The outcome always so sudden and beyond our expectation. We know that Malaysia current government does not apply good governance.
For me, I will invest on both to diversify and minimise the risk as low as possible.


ONly stoopid suckers like you advise such ...............

Especially when a few of us has SHown you that you can get pamp bars cheaper, just not at jewellers

OR ARE YOU TOO THICK TO COMPREHEND?


Added on January 30, 2012, 9:58 pm
QUOTE(december88 @ Jan 30 2012, 04:06 PM)

Some US bullion coins (more than 100 years) or rare ones are worth thousands especially if it is in good grade condition.
*
i know that. i am just asking the poster why he thinks its worth that much.
100 years means nothing if the mintage is high or its in poor condition.
i have coins minted in 2009 worth in excess of Rm10k.....

This fella in its complete set is worth around USD2900

user posted image

If its grading is MS70, it will fetch USD3700 biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Jan 30 2012, 09:58 PM
prophetjul
post Jan 31 2012, 07:24 AM

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QUOTE(doraemonkiller @ Jan 31 2012, 12:45 AM)
I was answering a question of someone who look for a gold bar from jewellery shop, this is the comparison for both company. You only took part of the quote and give such stupid statement. No one stop you from buying gold from whichever company you want. IT IS THEIR OR OUR CHOICE.
Your face so thick until can keep on twisting my words. Good luck on your misleading. Will not entertain a fool like you anymore.
*
Guess you really are TOO THICK to comprehend this statement

DONT BUY GOLD BARS FROM JEWELLERS.

bye.............
prophetjul
post Feb 1 2012, 07:20 AM

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QUOTE(eugenetwh @ Feb 1 2012, 02:34 AM)
Im still studying in uni... actually. isit ok if i use my allowance to buy 1gm of paper gold every month from maybank... im looking for long term thingy... or do i need to monitor the market every now and then....

OR

isit better if i just throw all my extra allowance into the bank or get saving policy from prudential.  hmm.gif  hmm.gif

thanks notworthy.gif
*
First of all, do not use your emergency funds.
Longterm may mean 3 to 5 years.
Next whats your risk appetite? Gold is a dangerous animal! biggrin.gif
Since you are young, you have TIME to take risks.

So now make your own decision.........


Added on February 1, 2012, 10:01 am
QUOTE
QUOTE(nasze_89 @ Jan 3 2012, 09:17 AM)
"We have the beginnings of a real bear market, and the death of a bull," said veteran trader Dennis Gartman, a long-time gold bull who completely exited his bullion investments last week.
Since September, gold has underperformed commodities measured by the RJ/CRB index and the euro, while U.S. equities measured by the S&P 500 eked out a slight gain.

Drop below $1500 per oz, (RM 169 per gram if $1=RM 3.2)
This is just a forecast, so my advice, buy when the trend increase, around RM 150-160 per gram if u are risk averse people.


QUOTE(prophetjul @ Jan 4 2012, 10:30 AM)
You listen to this fool at yer own peril........Flipflopping at a sneeze?    whistling.gif

http://www.cnbc.com/id/45828049

Gartman as Gold Tops $1,600: ‘I Missed the Lows’



Gold bulls are feeling more comfortable as the precious metal rose more than 2½ percent on positive economic data, but is it time to get in the trade?

“I got unlucky in not turning bullish properly,” noted investor Dennis Gartman said Tuesday. “It’s still a long-term bull market, and I’ll get bullish again. It looks like I missed the lows. Those things happen.”

The Gartman Letter publisher made headlines when he announced he had sold off the gold in his personal account.


Added on January 4, 2012, 1:14 pmGrandich Raises Gold Challenge to $2 Million.

By Mark Gongloff

Everett
Two MILLION dollars!Newsletter writer/bomb thrower Peter Grandich is at it again.

A few weeks ago he launched a broadside rant against three of his fellow newsletter writers, including Dennis Gartman, who have recently dared to suggest that gold might possibly not be a great buy right now! After labeling them the Three Stooges, he challenged them to a $1 million bet that gold will hit $2000 an ounce before it hits $1200 an ounce.

The response from the Stooges ranged from calling Grandich a nut job (Jon Nadler of Kitco) to wishing him a Merry Christmas (the chivalrous Gartman).

Having not thoroughly spooked all the horses with that first bet, Grandich has today raised the ante, directing all of his ire at Nadler and challenging him to another bet, now $2 million, that gold will hit $2100 before it hits $1000:

I hereby challenge Mr. Nadler again, this time raising my wager to $2 million — still not anyone’s “life savings.” I’ll increase the bet’s target price by $100: that gold will see $2,100 before $1,000. The winnings are to be donated to charity.

It’s a shame that someone can continue to be so wrong without being questioned. When Mr. Nadler resorts to misrepresenting me, it’s time for him to put up or shut up.

If Mr. Nadler’s forecasts have been so profitable to him and his readers, why wouldn’t he accept this challenge?

I have arranged for the law firm of Lomurro, Davison, Eastman & Munoz of Freehold, New Jersey, to hold the wagered funds in trust. My offer to Nadler is good until 12:01 a.m. ET January 9, 2012. And since my side of the wager is derived from my personal funds, Mr. Nadler’s $2 million match to my wager shall also be certified as deriving from his personal funds or funds derived from the assets of his immediate family.

MarketBeat doesn’t want any part of this debacle, but will agree with Grandich that $2 million is “not anyone’s ‘life savings.’” MarketBeat’s “life savings” are more like $200.

Gold was recently up 1.65% at $1566.40. Your move, Nadler!

Update: Nadler responds in the comments section:

For the record, what I said about the man was: “Peter Grandich is not worthy of my time, or of my attention. He is a desperate man, desperately seeking attention,” said Nadler, in response to an email requesting comment on Grandich’s blog.” That is not a “nut job” quote. … Finally, also for the record, I do not advise my readers and I do not predict anything, unlike Grandich. I do find it sad as well as humorous how he keeps moving his betting targets now that his first number is about to fall. Totally disingenous. That is why no one is paying attention.

PS: Here is one bet you can count on: Effective today, the name of Peter Grandich will not be mentioned by me directly or indirectly in any way. He no longer exits as far as I am concerned and no time of mine shall be wasted on anything that has to do with him and his antics.

Update 2: Grandich writes:

In typical “Tokyo Rose” fashion, Nadler not only totally fails to answer truthfully about his actual track record, but he again outright lies by using a $1,500 number that never existed in any and all claims except in his warped and devious mind. The sad part is the author of the column doesn’t seem to grasp that nor the ample evidence of exactly how wrong Nadler has been for years. And may I add as a standardbred horse owner that if nadler was indeed a horse, it would be much easier to accept what he dumps and leaves in his path of twisted truths, lies and deception. P.S. Also as a horse owner I can say based on his heartless track record, he couldn’t find a suitable race even at a state fair. P.S.S. And to Mr. Gongloff, thank you for proving my point about most in the media.The great Jim O’Connell must be wiping yet another tear from his eye in Heaven.

Update 3: Grandich further adds:

Jon Nadler wrote :

“PS Here is one bet you can count on: Effective today, the name of Peter Grandich will not me mentioned by me directly or indirectly in any way. He no longer exits as far as I am concerned and no time of mine shall be wasted on anything that has to do with him and his antics.”

This is basically the line Nadler used when he said gold topped out at $800 and was not in a bull market when ROB-TV offered to host a debate between us only to have Nadler hide in the safety of his useless column and twist facts and comments of mine and others who did something he never managed to do since gold was $300 – gets its long term direction correct.

If it was just a matter of being wrong there would be no challenge because I’ve been wrong many times only I don’t try to change history and make like it never happened. Sadly, this journalist is like many who couldn’t begin to be truly fair and balance. Thankfully, my Savior more than makes up for it and that shall be my comfort for the lies and deception that nadler continues to dwell in (and this columnist indirectly helps support with his first grade wit and charm). End of discussion with this column but I shall never waiver to speak up when such decitful people like nadler make a mockery of truth.
*
remeber our gold bear GARTMAN???

Well he bought back HIGHER! whistling.gif

sold at 16xx, buying at 17xx. and it's even worse for his euro/gold trade

guy is the ultimate maroon

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/silver...rplus%E2%80%9D

Dennis Gartman, economist and newsletter writer, said he is buying more gold priced in euros after he “returned to this trade” last week. It is “time to add to the trade and we are doing so this morning,” he said today in his daily Gartman Letter.

Whatta foolish talk as he has evidenced manya times about gold.....

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Feb 1 2012, 10:01 AM
prophetjul
post Feb 1 2012, 10:26 AM

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QUOTE(eugenetwh @ Feb 1 2012, 10:07 AM)
its not really my emergency funds... think of it as surplus from my allowance... im looking at 10-15 years. haha... its more like "saving" for the future to me...
*
Good on yer mate!

Start young on savings...like that! thumbup.gif
prophetjul
post Feb 2 2012, 08:37 AM

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QUOTE(opifan @ Feb 2 2012, 08:31 AM)
That's the problem... Unless you can foresee buying low and selling high, there is very high element of risk involved for something you can't measure the value and can only speculate...
*
i diiffer on that opinion.
Its valued in many ways. You just have to find them and then make your own opinion.
Its just that valuing gold is probably not according to our traditional indoctrinated ways of the
modern economist, etc.

For eg WHY has gold risen from $250 in 2002 to $1700 in 2012?

One reason- $ is tanking.........

prophetjul
post Feb 2 2012, 10:07 AM

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The ‘Gold Bubble’ In Perspective January 31, 2012 | Author Pater Tenebrarum


The Gold Price Compared to Various Yardsticks

Our friend Ronald Stoeferle from Erstebank in Vienna has sent us a few charts that we think are well worth considering (readers may recall his widely read and excellent series of reports entitled 'In Gold We Trust' – for those who have missed it, a pdf file of the most recent report can be downloaded at the bottom of this previous missive).

Many people insist on referring to the gold bull market as a 'bubble', to which we always retort, 'one day it may well become one, but it's not there yet'.

Most prominent among the gold bears who have been deriding the advance in vain over the past several years has been Nouriel Roubini, who has referred to the gold market as a bubble for quite some time, but there are many others who agree with his view. Roubini apparently simply hates gold, presumably because its rise stands as a constant reminder that the money printing and deficit spending policies he supports are seen in a rather dim light by the markets.




It is only natural though that people are worried about the possibility of a bubble having formed. After all, the gold price has now advanced a good bit from its lows 11 years ago and it has done so unwaveringly year after year. Since gold is difficult to evaluate, one must go about the exercise in roundabout ways. Gold is not consumed and the market treats it as a currency rather than a commodity, so it can not be analyzed by the supply-demand type analysis applied in e.g. analyzing industrial commodities prices. Since it has no yield it is also not possible to calculate its present value by discounting a future stream of earnings, such as one can e.g. do with stocks and bonds.

However, it is possible to compare gold to alternative investment assets as well as to various monetary aggregates.

For an in-depth discussion of the major fundamental drivers of the gold price, we refer you to a previous article, 'Precious Metals, An Update'. Although the article is slightly dated by now, the principles discussed in it remain of course valid.

More here

http://www.acting-man.com/?p=13883
prophetjul
post Feb 7 2012, 08:05 AM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Feb 6 2012, 09:36 AM)
Not only gold, a lot of hard asset can also, properties, silver, copper etc.

FD is not a joke for 24 years compared head to head with gold, it won with miles ahead from 1980~2004.
While if one invested in properties in Japan earlier like 1980's or US during 2006-2007, FD still won miles ahead.

Cash is not as bad as many think (yes keep cash forever is bad), cash let you to pounce and invest asset in bad time, or the asset price at distress time, capture opportunity, which can make your decent profit afterwards.
*
If you put in FD from 2001 to present, you lose value like aton of brick dropping down.
FD does not beat inflation.
From 2002 to present gold in ringgit terms gained 18% compounded growth
in USD terms gained 24% compounded growth

AND thats NO joke....... biggrin.gif

prophetjul
post Feb 9 2012, 03:22 PM

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QUOTE(hackwire @ Feb 9 2012, 02:59 PM)
jewel shop? is it jewellery or gold bar?
any way , i saw habib jewel gold bar with dragon design , anyone buy that ? Public bank also making offer now, wonder if i should buy from habib or public bank..?

Are you saying Public bank is selling Pamp Dragon gold bars?
prophetjul
post Feb 9 2012, 03:37 PM

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QUOTE(hackwire @ Feb 9 2012, 03:25 PM)
habib jewel . they have a booth in KLCC now. the purity of the gold is 999.9
i wonder how much will it cost. can u go to it's website and download the pdf file to take a look now. it's very nice .
public bank has promotion for their gold bar account as well but not dragon design kot.
*
If habib is selling, will not be cheap..............jeweller's price
prophetjul
post Feb 9 2012, 03:50 PM

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QUOTE(hackwire @ Feb 9 2012, 03:45 PM)
so jewellers price is not following the market rate ??
check out this Public bank promotion , 200gm gold to get 1gm gold.. wonder what is the fineness of the gold, y they did not disclose it out but the poster show the gold bar fineness is 999.9
*
No. They will use jewellers rate which is higher than spot rates....something like 15 to 10% higher
prophetjul
post Feb 9 2012, 08:43 PM

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QUOTE(hackwire @ Feb 9 2012, 04:01 PM)
ok thanks.. wat do u suggest if buying gold base on spot rates, do i go to banks like UOB to get them or any other banks like maybank?? i don't think i trust jewelers on gold now after i heard stories of mixing gold with other materials . better for me to seek the right instituition since in the thread already have an article of counterfeit gold distributed from china and even dealers cannot detect.
*
If you want physical gold, i suggest UOB or Maybank for the gold coins.
They are similar in price to gold bars.
As for gold bars, some ppl here may have better suggestions.
i dont like bars as i cannot be sure like you mentioned, the purity of the product
prophetjul
post Feb 11 2012, 10:17 AM

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QUOTE(ronnie @ Feb 10 2012, 07:08 PM)
In today's The Star Metro has an article about Genneva new HQ... I thought SC already consider them a scam. Selling gold at RM215 per gramme.
*
More than 20% above spot.......for SucKERS
prophetjul
post Feb 12 2012, 02:54 PM

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QUOTE(loongchai @ Feb 11 2012, 10:50 PM)
but UOB charges double the spot price for physical gold? so why buy physical from banks?
http://www1.uob.com.my/jsp/finance/fin_gold.jsp?func=gold
*
How do you calculate double the spot price for gold matey? biggrin.gif


QUOTE
1 OZ AUST NUGGETS 5482 5483 5297

prophetjul
post Feb 12 2012, 03:34 PM

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QUOTE(loongchai @ Feb 12 2012, 03:31 PM)
how about this?
1 GM
PAMP GOLD
bank sell (W Msia) 328
bank sell (E Msia) 329
bank buy 195

what is the difference of PAMP and nuggets? I thought the retail price is RM205 per gram now? please enlighten me
*
i see. i never look at 1 gram gold......... biggrin.gif

The 1 oz looks alrite! thumbup.gif
prophetjul
post Feb 12 2012, 03:46 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Feb 12 2012, 03:37 PM)
1gm physical is meaningless or not any economical and investment wise, if one want to invest in gold.
No offence.  smile.gif
*
thumbup.gif

1 gram can even see proper....easy to lose. biggrin.gif


Added on February 12, 2012, 3:47 pm
QUOTE(loongchai @ Feb 12 2012, 03:45 PM)
i guess if you purchase in multiple of grams, the price would be much higher. but if you purchase in oz, it will be cheaper
*
Honestly i doubt they even have 1 gm pieces.


Added on February 13, 2012, 8:16 amPermanent Gold Backwardation
By Keith Weiner

http://www.caseyresearch.com/cdd/per...-backwardation

The Root of the Problem Is Debt
Worldwide, an incredible tower of debt has been under construction since President Nixon's 1971 default on the gold obligations of the US government. His decree severed the redeemability of the dollar for gold and thus eliminated the extinguisher of debt. Debt has been growing exponentially everywhere since then. Debt is backed with debt, based on debt, dependent on debt and leveraged with yet more debt. For example, today it is possible to buy a bond (i.e., lend money) on margin (i.e., with borrowed money).

The time is now fast approaching when all debt will be defaulted on. In our perverse monetary system, one party's debt is another's "money." A debtor's default will impact the creditor (who is usually also a debtor to yet other creditors), causing him to default, and so on. When this begins in earnest, it will wipe out the banking system and thus everyone's "money." The paper currencies will not survive this. We are seeing the early edges of it now in the euro, and it's anyone's guess when it will happen in Japan, though it seems long overdue already. Last of all, it will come to the USA.

The purpose of this article is to present the early-warning signal and explain the actual mechanism to these events. Contrary to popular belief, it will not happen because the central banks increase the quantity of money to infinity. The money supply may even be contracting (which is what I expect).

To understand the terminal stages of the monetary system's fatal disease, we must understand gold.

Defining Backwardation
First, let me introduce a key concept. Most traders define "backwardation" for a commodity as when the price of a futures contract is lower than the price of the same good in the spot market.

In every market, there are always two prices for a good: the bid and the ask. To sell a good, one must take the bid. And likewise, to buy the good, one must pay the ask. In backwardation, one can sell a physical good for cash and simultaneously buy a futures contract, and make a profit on the arbitrage. Note that in doing this trade, one's position does not change in the end. One begins with a certain amount of the good and ends (upon maturity of the contract) with that same amount of the good.

Backwardation is when the bid in the spot market is greater than the ask in the futures market.
Many commodities, like wheat, are produced seasonally. But consumption is much more evenly spread around the year. Immediately prior to the harvest, the spot price of wheat is normally at its highest in relation to wheat futures. This is because wheat inventories in the warehouses are very low. People will have to pay a higher price for immediate delivery. At the same time, everyone in the market knows that the harvest is coming in one month. So the price, if a buyer can wait one month for delivery, is lower. This is a case of backwardation.

Backwardation is typically a signal of a shortage in a commodity. Anyone holding the commodity could make a risk-free profit by delivering it and getting it back later. If others put on this trade, and others, and so on, this would push down the bid in the spot market and lift up the ask in the futures market until the backwardation disappeared. The process of profiting from arbitrage compresses the spread one is arbitraging.

Actionable backwardations typically do not last long enough for the small trader to even see on the screen, much less trade. This is another way of saying that markets do not normally offer risk-free profits. In the case of wheat backwardation, for example, the backwardation may persist for weeks or longer. But there is no opportunity to profit for anyone, because no one has any wheat to spare. There is a genuine shortage of wheat before the harvest.

Why Gold Backwardation Is Important
Could backwardation happen with gold? Gold is not in shortage. One just has to measure abundance using the right metric. If you look at the inventories divided by annual mine production, the World Gold Council estimates this number to be around 80 years.

In all other commodities (except silver), inventories represent a few months of production. Other commodities can even have "gluts," which usually lead to a price collapse. As an aside, this fact makes gold good for money. The price of gold does not decline, no matter how much of the stuff is produced. Production will certainly not lead to a "glut" in the gold market pulling prices downward.

So, what would a lower price on gold for future delivery mean compared to a higher price of gold in the spot market? By definition, it means that gold delivered to the market is in short supply.

The meaning of gold backwardation is that trust in future delivery is scarce.
In an ordinary commodity, scarcity of the physical good available for delivery today is resolved by higher prices. At a high enough price, demand for wheat falls until existing stocks are sufficient to meet the reduced demand.

But how is scarcity of trust resolved?
Thus far, the answer has been: via higher prices. Higher prices do coax some gold out of various hoards, jewelry, etc. Gold went into backwardation for the first time in December 2008. One could have earned a 2.5% (annualized) profit by selling physical gold and simultaneously buying a February 2009 future. Gold was $750 on December 5, but it rocketed to $920 – a gain of 23% – by the end of January.

But when backwardation becomes permanent, then trust in the gold futures market will have collapsed. Unlike with wheat, millions of people and many institutions have plenty of gold they can sell in the physical market and buy back via futures contracts. When they choose not to, that is the beginning of the end of the current financial system.

Why?
Think about the similarities between the following three statements:

"My paper gold future contract will be honored by delivery of gold."
"If I trade my gold for paper now, I will be able to get gold back in the future."
"I will be able to exchange paper money for gold in the future."
The reason why there was a significant backwardation (smaller backwardations have occurred intermittently since then) is that people did not believe the first statement. They did not trust that the gold future would be honored in gold.

And if they don't believe that paper futures will be honored in gold, then they have no reason to believe that they can get gold in the future at all.

If some gold owners still trust the system at that point, then they can sell their gold (at much higher prices, probably). But sooner or later, there will not be any sellers of gold in the physical market.

Higher Prices Can't Cure Permanent Gold Backwardation
With an ordinary commodity, there is a limit to what buyers are willing to pay based on the need satisfied by that commodity, the availability of substitutes and the buyers' other needs that also must be satisfied within the same budget. The higher the price, the more holders and producers are motivated to sell, and the less consumers are motivated (or able) to buy. The cure for high prices is high prices.

But gold is different. Unlike wheat, gold is not bought for consumption. While some people hold it to speculate on increases in its paper price, these speculators will be replaced by others who hold it because it is money.

Once the gold owners have lost confidence, no amount of price change will bring back trust in paper currencies. Gold will not have a "high enough" price that will discourage buying or encourage selling. Thus gold backwardation will not only recur, but at some point, it will stay in its backwardated state.

In looking at the bid and ask, one other observation is germane to this discussion. In times of crisis, it is always the bid that is withdrawn – there is never a lack of asks. Permanent gold backwardation can be seen as the withdrawal of bids denominated in gold for irredeemable government debt paper (e.g., dollar bills).

Backwardation should not be able to happen at all as gold is so abundant. However, the fact that it has happened and keeps happening means that it is inevitable and that, at some point, backwardation will become permanent. The erosion of faith in paper money is a one-way process (with some zigs and zags). But eventually, backwardation will become deeper and deeper (while the dollar price of gold is rising, probably exponentially).

The final step is when gold completely withdraws its bid on paper. At that point, paper's bid on gold will be unlimited, and this is why paper will inevitably collapse without gold.

Conclusion
Permanent gold backwardation leading to the withdrawal of the gold bid on the dollar is the inevitable result of the debt collapse. Governments and other borrowers have long since passed the point where they can amortize their debts. Now they merely "roll" the debt and the interest as they come due. This leaves them vulnerable to the market demand for their bonds. When they have an auction that fails to attract bids, the game will be over. Whether they formally default or whether they just print the currency to pay, it won't matter.

Gold owners, like everyone else, will watch this happen. If government bond holders sell their securities in response to this crisis, they will only receive paper backed by that same government and its bonds. But the gold owner has the power to withdraw his bid on paper altogether. When that happens, there will be an irreconcilable schism between gold and paper, with real goods and services taking the side of gold. And in a process that should play out within a few months once it gets started, paper money will no longer have any value.

Gold is not officially recognized as the foundation of the financial system. Yet it is still a necessary component. When it is withdrawn, the worldwide regime of irredeemable paper money will collapse.

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Feb 13 2012, 08:16 AM

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