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Health Beware of Unethical Breeders, Please Read

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TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 25 2011, 11:42 PM, updated 15y ago

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Hello all,

Before I start anything, please let me introduce myself
My girlfriend and I was a proud owner of a Yorkshire Terrier named Tiffie whom we bought from Irene Kang of Starhill Kennel

http://www.starhillkennel.webs.com/

The reason why I am writing this is to expose some of the problems we have with this breeder and to save potential heartache for potential owners
This will also be a long article..
But I suggest that potential or interested owners please do yourself a favour and read this
This is to save you from future unnecessary grief and to help give you pointers when searching for a good breeder
*not just for Yorkshire Terriers but also applies to other dogs

Tiffie was born on the 29th September 2009
From the day we got her, her fur was unmanaged and messy, and smelly
She was not given proper grooming prior to being sent to us from Penang
(**At this juncture -> Irresponsible breeder alert)

On top of that, she has many problems with her skin (i.e. skin diseases, rashes etc)
At first we thought nothing of it, thinking it was just puppy rashes
(even the Vet thought so)

However, she also frequently gets sick
(And we thought maybe it was the dirty environment she was in at home)
We did some spring cleaning and yet she still falls sick frequently

Our vet trips cost us a lot of money
From medication, to Vitamin E for skin, Sometimes her stool would have blood and we would get worried..

We have never contacted Irene Kang thinking maybe it was an inherent problem with only our Yorkshire Terrier
And we never complained because she was our love and joy
We took it all in our stride..


However a recent event caused us much heart ache and this prompted me to do some researching

Course of Events

10th of June 2011,
We found her abdomen bloating
And thus sent her to the vet.
The vet found out she might have heart problem
This was confirmed after doing an X-ray on her chest

11/6/2011
We were referred to a specialist at the Jalan Gasing Vet Hospital
There we did an ultrasound and it is confirmed (again) that there is a hole in her heart (VSD)
We were given medication to help improve her heart condition and to stabilise the pressure in the heart

23/06/2011
Things got worse because she's not eating anymore
Even with her favourite snacks
We brought her back to vet who then said that she has only a few more days left
She lost her ability to control her bowel & she can no longer walk straight

25/06/2011
We decided to put her to sleep because she was suffering very badly

*We did not put her to sleep earlier because we thought the medication would help
*We did not at any time know that her condition would deteriorate so fast
(only 15 days from the start of symptoms)

____________________________________________________________

What I would like to point out first and foremost is

Hole in the Heart
Congenital Heart Disease

I quote:
"If you hear your veterinarian use the word "congenital" when describing your dog's defect, that means that the defect has been in existence since the birth of your dog"

Why do I say these?

Apparently, there were other furry owners who experienced the same problem
When they contacted Irene Kang of Starhill, she blamed the owner and/or their vets
Can you imagine a grieving owner seeking out the problem with her and he gets blamed in return?

This was the story of a West Highland Terrier who bought a puppy from Irene Kang only to her horror to find her puppy dead 2 weeks later
Another owner did the research and found that out...

I quote her:

"One of her buyers from her 1st Westie litter contacted me. She shared that their puppy (Taco), died 2 weeks after collection because he was infected with Canine Distemper Virus. Did Irene Kang sell them a defected puppy at RM3,000? What did Irene Kang do? She hung up the phone on them. Washing her hands clean from any responsibilities!"

You can read more about Scubby the White Warrior Here
There are several parts to it
This lady has already did some research in which I will not dwell upon in this article

As you can see,
Irene Kang blamed every one else but not herself
A congenital heart disease is whereby the puppy was born with a defect
That defect could have came from anywhere up in the line of genetic tree as a result of breeding

Now please note this:

WHILE THERE ARE NO RULES/GUIDELINES/LAWS THAT DOGS WITH GENETIC DEFECTS SHOULD NOT BE BRED
ETHICAL BREEDERS SHOULD KNOW NOT TO BREED THEM!


This is because when breeding such dogs with genetic defects, the trait will be passed down
It may not appear in the next generation of litters, but it has a high chance of recurring in later generations
This is made worse with the process of INTERBREEDING
(Breeding between Brother Sister, Mother Son, Dad Daughter, Grandad Grandaughter etc etc.)

For more information on the process of interbreeding and what is its effects:

Pedigree Dogs Exposed, BBC Documentary 2008

And now before I end my article
I have a few things to say

1) To you breeders out there

You are breeding a new generation of LIFE
Life is not meant for playing
By breeding you are playing God
There is nothing wrong with breeding

BUT if you breed UNETHICALLY you create problems not only for the owners
You also create problems for the breed
All for the want of money

As breeders, you should be ethical
There is a strong bond between the pets and their owners

No pet owners deserves to go through what my girlfriend and I just went through today
Though we do not regret having our little puppy, she should not have to die this way

*Let me also make you aware of people/breeders/homebreeders selling TEACUP SIZED Puppies
This is happening even on LYN
THINK TWICE BEFORE BUYING THEM
There are NO such things called Teacup sized - Poodles/Yorkshire Terriers or whatever breed
Not especially for Yorkshire Terriers
Please read Here for more Info as to why
*This also is a guideline to all other breeds..
Beware when they say they are selling teacup sized (insert breed here)


There is a Smaller sized pup in every litter and thats the truth and its unavoidable
Responsible Breeders should NEVER exploit this fact and state that its a "teacup such and such"
The truth is you are selling weaker pups (The smallest of the litter is always known to be the weakest) at premium prices!
That is just not right..
Its not to say that you cannot sell..
You can but you should not come out saying it is a small sized pup and as such more expensive
THERE IS NO SUCH THING!
*However my stand is.. even if you bought the weaker one of the litter it still deserves your love and attention
*Sometime it is unavoidable that you just fall for the weaker/smaller ones of the litter... after all each pup speaks to each of us differently
*Just don't buy puppies because of their size!


2) To you owners/potential owners out there

Do the right thing,
Do your research and homework
Find out the lineage of the puppies before buying (to see if there were any diseases in the sire/dam or further up the lineage tree)
Check for any disease
Check feedback of the breeder from other buyers
DO NOT be lured in by the fact that the puppy/dog was of champion lineage..(Champion Lineage does NOT equal good health)
Champion lineage does not mean a thing when your pup is going to die in 1 year or 6 months or worse.. 2 weeks as stated above
Most of Irene Kang's dogs are all from champion lineage
(due to inbreeding)
My dog's dam was a champion herself and she still suffered badly due to VSD
Get a healthy dog.. not a champion!

By refusing to buy such dogs with defects, they will stop breeding genetically defected dogs and start breeding ethically to increase sales
Its not to say that you can't buy such dogs with defects...
I fully understand that sometimes its avoidable and maybe a 1 off case

If you do find out that your dog has some genetic defects there are a few things you can do:
a) find out more about the defect, is it congenital?
b) find out its lineage and warn the breeder (he may or may not have known about it... and you will help by doing your part to inform)
c) neuter or spay your pet
(Its cruel yes.. but by breeding them you are passing on genetic defects)
d) be responsible and love your pet even those with genetic defects or sickness
(I'm not going to lie.. its a heavy burden... its going to incur a lot of expenses.. but the dog is your family)


For more info on T-cup sized/big boned dogs etc etc

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Breeders with bad reputation here:

Irene Kang of Starhill Kennel - http://www.starhillkennel.webs.com/ (Personal Experience also by benjac)
All About Pets Ipoh- All About Pets Ipoh (Forumers Experience)
My QQ Pets Cylos Quah -Cylos Quah Petfinder Thread (Forumers Experience)
TNT Pet Store Penang - TNT Pet Store Penang (Reported Here)
JimmyPiu from Muar - Jimmypiu Profile Petfinder (Reported Here and verified by the Mods in Petfinder.my)

Also beware of petshops as there is a high likelihood that their puppies comes from Puppy mills...
Info on Puppy Mills
*not saying all of them come from Puppy Mills but there are some
*home breeders sometimes have so many dogs that that too could be counted as a "watered down" version of the Puppy Mill


*I will add on to this when there are more people responding
*If you know of any other unethical breeders please post them here and I'll edit accordingly..
*Make sure you have proof... (i.e. there was a complaint, or your case isn't an isolated one)


Helpful guide

I have inserted the report on my Puppy Tiffie and her condition
If you like you can have a read

I'm making this as a personal mission to educate people about what is wrong with the pet industry today
The loss we have suffered is painful and incomparable
No one and no pet should go through this kind of pain


This post has been edited by KiyoshiJoz: Jun 27 2011, 03:15 AM


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post Jun 25 2011, 11:51 PM

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pity girl... why don't you ask Irene Kang to explain or responsible on it? i believe that some of the responsible breeder will given some guarantee on the pus health..
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 25 2011, 11:53 PM

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someone has already complained before..
my gf complained on her facebook page but did not get a reply..

there are too many complaints about her..
and as such i wrote this..

this doesnt just apply to her.. it applies to other breeders out there...

please do not breed out dogs out of existence!


also we do not want monetary compensation..
we have no regrets getting our puppy.. although she died in such a terrible way..
we just want breeders to be more ethical while breeding...
what I want is that breeders to be ethical and not to breed just merely for the sake of breeding..

if they want money from breeding, then least please breed ethically

This post has been edited by KiyoshiJoz: Jun 25 2011, 11:55 PM
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post Jun 26 2011, 12:07 AM

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same as this irresponsible breeder he ofen sell sick pups to ppls with low price..

Cylos Quah - My QQ Pets at Cheras Taman Connaught
http://www.myadpost.com/cylosquah/
http://forums.petfinder.my/showthread.php?t=4338

RIP Tiffie
verulin
post Jun 26 2011, 12:08 AM

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From: PJ n Ipoh


for those in Ipoh, avoid the breeder from All About Pets
http://my.wowcity.com/ipoh/locbus2/1781249...-about-pets.htm

so sorry to hear of your loss sad.gif
arashirott
post Jun 26 2011, 12:15 AM

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There are so many irresponsible breeders out there...not just this Irene Kang.
Usually, once I see the place they keep their dogs in the photos and also the condition of the pups, you can tell whether they are a good breeder or not.

The WORST thing however is that even the most responsible breeders you see out there can have something deep down that isn't right.
I know because I have experienced it.

Breeders should not breed pets for money. That should NOT be the reason they breed their dogs. They should breed them to improve the breed.

The breeder I got my dog from bred their dogs with lots of inbreeding fully aware of what they are doing. It turns out my dog has a lot of genetic issues. THis breeder in particular is quite respectable....they take good care of their dogs, but they breed for money. And in my opinion, that is the worst thing.

CyaNide27
post Jun 26 2011, 12:27 AM

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firstly, i'm sorry for your girl....

there are only a handful of us that are trying to educate people about researching BEFORE buying a pet, not AFTER buying, but many people refuse to listen and some even scold us back.... until they have received bad experience, they will still think that it is not neccesary to do homework.... it is good to know that there are more people joining the small group of people who are promoting responsible pet ownership.

actually both sides of the deal (buyer and breeder)play a part in these rampant growth of puppymills and unethical backyard breeders....

many buyers
1. jump into the buy-a-pet bandwagon because they percieve it as 'the latest trend'
2. walks into a petshop and finds that a puppy is cute and buy impulsely, later giving up on the dog once it outgrown its cuteness/they find no time to care for it
3. wants a particular breed at cheap prices/super small sizes (ie teacup/micro teacup doh.gif )

so to feed the demands of these type of buyers, unethical breeder sees a market there and taps in on these weaknesses.... they manipulate terms which some people dont bother to research on, some put high price tags to pretend that they are selling quality puppies but in actual fact earning big bucks....
for truly responsible breeders, it is IMPOSSIBLE to make any money out of breeding, because they spend and invest so much on choosing the right stock for their breeding program, they study and research, they provide the best care.... thus breeding is their HOBBY, not job or source of income....

some terms people need to be aware of (and please do your homework on these terms)
Champion Lineage is NOT same as Champion Parents. besides, if you have gone to watch a dog show, you would know what is being accessed for a dog to be titled champion thus championship DOES NOT include free of health problems, they just conform to the breed standards physically and probably characteristics. BUT a responsible breeder will identify what is lacking in their breeding stock and find for 1 that can counter balance that flaw to improve the breed.

Teacup. as mentioned above, DO NOT EXIST, period. as much as people adore the small size, teacup is in fact a weak dog in it's litter, not getting enough nutrients thus having such a ridiculously small size. there is a reason why breed standards include their size and weight! some irresponsible breeders deliberately breed 2 weak dogs together (risking the mother in the process) just to get more profits out of selling beautifully covered FLAW called teacup puppies.

Homebred. many whom have heard of puppymills have decided to look for homebred puppies instead. BUT homebred does not equals to RESPONSIBLE breeder. there is a HUGE difference between responsible breeders and backyard breeders who normally claim that their puppies are homebred. if someone is CONSTANTLY having litters after litters by the SAME female, which means the female did not get any rest and is bred EVERY SINGLE cycle of heat, now tell me, is that responsible? a responsible breeder spends all of their free time researching and working with a particular breed, taking them for competitions, looking for good genes to add to their stock, so if someone who is producing more that 2 or 3 different breeds, i doubt they are VERY responsible imo.

Big Boned/Oversized. this term is always used for large breeds. looking at the term itself makes you wanna doh.gif already. like i said earlier, every breed has their written standards. you dont need an oversized alsatian or rottweiler to guard your house, a normal healthy within standards size will do as well! sellers use this term to lure unsuspecting buyers to pay more! besides, if you need a dog for security purpose, you might as well hire a security guard or fix CCTV instead, a dog is you companion NOT guard.

This post has been edited by CyaNide27: Jun 26 2011, 12:29 AM
aiyoyoann
post Jun 26 2011, 12:31 AM

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Hello all,
I am one of tiffie's owner.
she had been with me most of the times
and I'm still really upset for this great loss.

I really hope people out there
be it buyer or breeder,
PETS have life too.
They are not a doll for us to play around.
KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
ELSE YOU WILL BE PUNISHED !

Please be fair to Pets too because
They can't tell us when they are in pain
and they are so fragile .
sighhh,my poor lil tiffie =(
ix3Rukia
post Jun 26 2011, 12:34 AM

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Omg.. im sorry for ur lost..

Dam , if i were a police/ spca inspector i will definately catch her and make her pay for what she has done
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 12:44 AM

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what cyanide say is true...

We did do our homework but alas we did not do a deep enough research
we are guilty for that..
so now hopefully we can help buy bringing this to light and doing something about it...


Watch that documentary by BBC..
people have been lobying even to the point of going to the House of Lords
(the upper parliament house in the UK)


CyaNide27
post Jun 26 2011, 12:54 AM

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cant really blame you guys.... if Irene Kang can survive till now (putting a responsible breeder front) and still surviving even with so many irresponsible incidence, i'm sure she must have had her way around these things.... i once thought she was good too since her dogs had champion parents etc, until i came across some complains about her in another forum.... so yea, i think pet ownership education should add another "research on breeder background" as well....

btw, if you wanna pin this thread up as education to potential owners, you might wanna pm the mod directly, i noticed that they are hardly around....

This post has been edited by CyaNide27: Jun 26 2011, 12:56 AM
aiyoyoann
post Jun 26 2011, 12:55 AM

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it's not the money that matters
but it is really saddening to see pets in such indescribable pain.
it hurts me even till now .sigh

Pet owners,
Please do check properly before buying .
otherwise, you'll go through what i'm going through now!


Added on June 26, 2011, 12:59 am
QUOTE(CyaNide27 @ Jun 26 2011, 12:54 AM)
cant really blame you guys.... if Irene Kang can survive till now (putting a responsible breeder front) and still surviving even with so many irresponsible incidence, i'm sure she must have had her way around these things.... i once thought she was good too since her dogs had champion parents etc, until i came across some complains about her in another forum.... so yea, i think pet ownership education should add another "research on breeder background" as well....

btw, if you wanna pin this thread up as education to potential owners, you might wanna pm the mod directly, i noticed that they are hardly around....
*
Yes i totally AGREE with you .
there must be a forum to educate buyers.
don't be like me,blurred around.
but there is no regrets for having a cute baby like tiffie.
it's just that we don't want other dogs to suffer the same
thing she had been through & i'm sure she will support us.

This post has been edited by aiyoyoann: Jun 26 2011, 12:59 AM
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 01:01 AM

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yep ive already PM-ed the mods...
hopefully they will pin it up...

any other forums that you know of cyanide?
CyaNide27
post Jun 26 2011, 01:18 AM

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basically any places that has topics on pets would be a good platform to educate people....
http://homeapet.com/english/index.php
http://www.puppy.com.my/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi
http://cforum.cari.com.my/forumdisplay.php?fid=613 (this is a chinese language forum)

ofcourse when you love them, you wont care whatever flaws they have, wont regret for having them in your lives.... i also just lost my beloved maltese 2 weeks ago (due to other causes), i treated her literally as my own daughter, loved her more than myself, so i can understand how suffering it feels right now, even till today is still exactly same feeling as that day.... take care....

This post has been edited by CyaNide27: Jun 26 2011, 02:02 AM
benjac
post Jun 26 2011, 01:25 AM

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This post has been edited by benjac: Jul 7 2011, 12:14 PM
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 01:32 AM

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)= yeah the truth is.. we bought from irene thinking its better to buy from her, a home breeder...
instead of going to shops (which has a higher chance of their puppies coming from puppy mills)

Whereas i was made to understand Benjac (owner of mellomouse blog (=) went up to Penang.. we didn't have the time to go up nor the vehicle to do so..

as such we didnt have a chance to inspect the location and see how was the condition of the pups before it was brought to us..

its hard to find a good breeder anymore

CyaNide27
post Jun 26 2011, 01:43 AM

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you could check out dog shows organised by MKA and look at the many show exhibitors there with their dogs.... most (i cant guarantee all) that bring their dogs to join these championship shows are usually responsible and breed in the purpose of improving the breed quality.... certain shows have more international breeders competing as well.... although you may not be looking for a show quality, the breeders themselves also cant guarantee that 100% of their puppies will become show quality so there is bound to be pet quality ones, but responsible breeders would ofcourse ensure that the sire and dam are healthy and etc....
Reanne
post Jun 26 2011, 01:44 AM

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I'm very sorry for your loss. There are many cases like this happening everywhere for years but not many ppl dare to do anything about it. I give you a very big thumbs up coming forth and posting about your experience.

I hv many friends that ask me about where to get puppies. There are the rare few that will actually listen and get their puppy from good respectable ethical breeders, but the sad truth is that most of them will opt for puppymill/backyard breeders due to their financial constrictions.

For example, a friend of mine called me n asked about getting a toy poodle. Even after explaining extensively about puppymill/backyard breeders, he still wanted to try his luck to find a cheap puppy that may be healthy. He found a breeder/dealer online n proceeded to purchase the puppy for RM600. This cute little puppy however, died in less than a week later of parvo. He n his family were extremely upset but wanted another puppy to replace that hole that opened up. Again, he decided to purchase a cheap mill puppy thru another dealer. He bought another puppy in the end for roughly the same price. I'm not sure how's the puppy doing now but I haven't heard from him since so I presume it's doing fine.

My friend ended up paying a hefty RM1200 + vet bills + grief + a dead puppy. I don't believe attacking/complaining directly to these dealers/breeders is much use cuz they know what they're doing. They know that they are making money from suffering animals n they're not gonna stop.

I think the best way is to educate ppl n raise awareness about the fact that by buying from mills they are contributing to suffering. However, there are shops that pose as if they are so ethical n awesome but get their puppies from the very same mills they preach not to buy from. If ppl learn to think n judge for themselves, I believe it will may possibly destroy the puppymills/backyard breeders.

Kudos to u n the few other ppl that come forward to address this issue. smile.gif


Added on June 26, 2011, 1:49 am
QUOTE(CyaNide27 @ Jun 26 2011, 01:43 AM)
you could check out dog shows organised by MKA and look at the many show exhibitors there with their dogs.... most (i cant guarantee all) that bring their dogs to join these championship shows are usually responsible and breed in the purpose of improving the breed quality.... certain shows have more international breeders competing as well.... although you may not be looking for a show quality, the breeders themselves also cant guarantee that 100% of their puppies will become show quality so there is bound to be pet quality ones, but responsible breeders would ofcourse ensure that the sire and dam are healthy and etc....
*
I agree, there are always bound to be a chance that there will be pet quality puppies/dogs available from breeders. Though I would suggest adopting over buying if possible. tongue.gif

This post has been edited by Reanne: Jun 26 2011, 01:49 AM
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 01:57 AM

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yeah and that is why we bought from irene kang..

and tbh her puppies aren't cheap.. im not gonna divulge how much but they're at premium price range due to their sire/dams being champs

Reanne could you notify the other 2 mods if they could consider sticky-ing this thread?

i've already Pm-ed them..
But i'm made to know that they are rarely around

thanks
Reanne
post Jun 26 2011, 02:01 AM

Elite is only a tag. So don't PM me to delete ur post.
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Gilatikus isn't around much but u can try PMing Nairud. smile.gif
CyaNide27
post Jun 26 2011, 02:09 AM

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QUOTE(KiyoshiJoz @ Jun 26 2011, 01:57 AM)
yeah and that is why we bought from irene kang..

and tbh her puppies aren't cheap.. im not gonna divulge how much but they're at premium price range due to their sire/dams being champs

Reanne could you notify the other 2 mods if they could consider sticky-ing this thread?

i've already Pm-ed them..
But i'm made to know that they are rarely around

thanks
*
According to the website, Irene's yorkshires themselves are not champions, their sire is, thus the pups she sell have champion lineage only.... But it is not the same as champion parents.... She is just exploiting the fact that along the pedigree line there was a champion.... I shall not comment on this matter further though i'm itching to.... wink.gif
ZenoxV23
post Jun 26 2011, 02:10 AM

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errr next time do not pay and get your dog sent to you.. go to a place where u can see and check hands on before you buy the pup...

iam a breeder aswell and i just opened a kennel... i took alot of time to go out and research on the breeds.. also took time to find the good bloodlines... when time is right i will also be organizing seminar and training's for people who planning to get a dog for the 1st time...

and also bro cyanide, correct me if iam wrong, the oversize your meaning is commonly used for rottweilers. the common rottweiler you see is the german rottweiler, and if you think that is how the original rott looks like then your wrong. oversized rott is the most pure gen of rott and also has a different facial structure and at time they come with medium or long coat. originated from yugoslavia... reason how i know it is becoz i have 1 female with me. and also teacup sized dogs, i kinda did some research on it and i didnt get ur part where u say u breed and under nutrient dog with a under nutrient dog and u get small sized puppy... i think u need do some extra research... the teacup sized is a genetic defect that can also be called as dwarf... u mate a dwarf and a dwarf and u get small sized pups....

No hard feelings.... and also sorry for your loss

dimpleeee
post Jun 26 2011, 02:18 AM

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Good one Josh! +1 for mods to pin this up! cry.gif
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 02:20 AM

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yeah no worries zenox.. i know not all breeders are bad.. (=
hopefully i dont offend the good ones

but this is specifically aimed at those who arent ethical..

and its not that we do not want to check the pups... we just couldnt..
and the klang valley as you know it are short of good breeders..
(unless there are good ones im unaware of)

this is because breeders in KL/Klang valley are too business minded etc etc..
(not saying all are.. but most)

@cyanide..
yeah we know she is only of champ lineage (=
she is too young to be a champ anyway (=
but she is our champ wink.gif

and i agree with you.. they do use the champ-lineage to exploit for higher price
CyaNide27
post Jun 26 2011, 02:24 AM

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Teacups were originally weak pups from a litter where irresponsible puppymillers create this attractive name to dupe gullible buyers. Subsequently, these people see a market for it thus they take the smallest (ie weak) dog and b**ch to mate in hopes of producing even smaller puppies...
http://www.barkrescue.net/teacup.htm
P/s: i didnt say breed under nutrient dogs with under nutrient dogs, but there are some money minded people who deliberately starve puppies to keep them in a small size.... Some even teach new owners to count the number of kibbles to feed to keep them small doh.gif
ZenoxV23
post Jun 26 2011, 02:25 AM

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no worries bro... feel free to come for the doggy carnival at setia eco park... u can meet some good breeders there...

actualy malaysia has to come out with a ruling like some European countries. to buy a dog, the future owner needs to go for classes and then sit for an exam... with the right documentation you choose the pup... and also all breeders and kennels would be tied under an organization where all their breeding would be monitored. in this way home breeders could be stopped and buyers could get their pups from a trust worthy breeder...
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 02:33 AM

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QUOTE(CyaNide27 @ Jun 26 2011, 02:24 AM)
Teacups were originally weak pups from a litter where irresponsible puppymillers create this attractive name to dupe gullible buyers. Subsequently, these people see a market for it thus they take the smallest (ie weak) dog and b**ch to mate in hopes of producing even smaller puppies...
http://www.barkrescue.net/teacup.htm
P/s: i didnt say breed under nutrient dogs with under nutrient dogs, but there are some money minded people who deliberately starve puppies to keep them in a small size.... Some even teach new owners to count the number of kibbles to feed to keep them small doh.gif
*
i have heard of news where kittens were pressed into jars.. called bonsai kittens

Bonsai Kittens

despicable )=

zenox.. where is your breed area? for future ref when my gf and I finally find enough place in our hearts for another little one
and what breeds do you breed?

CyaNide27
post Jun 26 2011, 02:33 AM

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QUOTE(ZenoxV23 @ Jun 26 2011, 02:25 AM)
actualy malaysia has to come out with a ruling like some European countries. to buy a dog, the future owner needs to go for classes and then sit for an exam... with the right documentation you choose the pup... and also all breeders and kennels would be tied under an organization where all their breeding would be monitored. in this way home breeders could be stopped and buyers could get their pups from a trust worthy breeder...
*
Agreed. I once mention in another forum that MKA should be given power to retract certs and breeding licence if found that breeder is irresponsible, and also to perform unannounced spot checks to make sure they are truly ethical.... That way, people can be assured that a dog with mka cert is from responsible breeder whereas now mka means nothing more that a birthcert to prove the dog is pure breed and for competition purpose.... But it seems that it is impossible for MKA to do that.... sad.gif and in western countries, breeders can opt for restricted ownership for pet quality puppy where the puppy buyer is not allowed to breed the dog....
ZenoxV23
post Jun 26 2011, 02:35 AM

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QUOTE(CyaNide27 @ Jun 26 2011, 02:24 AM)
Teacups were originally weak pups from a litter where irresponsible puppymillers create this attractive name to dupe gullible buyers. Subsequently, these people see a market for it thus they take the smallest (ie weak) dog and b**ch to mate in hopes of producing even smaller puppies...
http://www.barkrescue.net/teacup.htm
P/s: i didnt say breed under nutrient dogs with under nutrient dogs, but there are some money minded people who deliberately starve puppies to keep them in a small size.... Some even teach new owners to count the number of kibbles to feed to keep them small doh.gif
*
its actually easier to say pre mature puppy... when a dog delivers, the 1st puppy is always the biggest and the last is always the smallest... and on common cases when the pup grows up they would be smaller sized aswell... but if u say count kibbles and all sounds more like they do not feed the dog enuff... if you do not feed the dog enuff the dog might only just be thin but not small...

and to other people who are planning to buy teacup pups, ur just wasting your money coz, your dog will die ealier then and average sized dog, and would have health complications.
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 02:38 AM

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they should also regulate show dogs..

dogs with illnesses should not win..
they should be cared for and loved.. but definitely not set an example where a dog can only win if it conforms to the traits stated on a white piece of paper..

just watch that BBC documentary and you will understand..
the Ridgeback was a deformity in Ridgeback dogs..

but show breeders and organisers state that if there is no ridge... it is not a ridgeback..

they even state to "CULL" ridgeback puppies w.o ridges..

thats killing healthy puppies and preserving the sick...
** that statement has since been retracted though...

we really are breeding our pedigree dogs to extinction
ZenoxV23
post Jun 26 2011, 02:38 AM

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QUOTE(KiyoshiJoz @ Jun 26 2011, 02:33 AM)
i have heard of news where kittens were pressed into jars.. called bonsai kittens

Bonsai Kittens

despicable )=

zenox.. where is your breed area? for future ref when my gf and I finally find enough place in our hearts for another little one
and what breeds do you breed?
*
i am more of a large sized dogs breeder... i focus on GSD, rott and dobe... but my place is not really a kennel la, i call it maple ranch... i give home to dogs who people do not care for anymore, people who gives their dog away coz moving into condo's, i have fish, ducks, chickens, goats, lizards, tarantulas.. soon to come horse and cows... finding for piglets but cant seem to find... ahahaha
CyaNide27
post Jun 26 2011, 02:40 AM

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QUOTE(ZenoxV23 @ Jun 26 2011, 02:35 AM)
its actually easier to say pre mature puppy... when a dog delivers, the 1st puppy is always the biggest and the last is always the smallest... and on common cases when the pup grows up they would be smaller sized aswell... but if u say count kibbles and all sounds more like they do not feed the dog enuff... if you do not feed the dog enuff the dog might only just be thin but not small...

and to other people who are planning to buy teacup pups, ur just wasting your money coz, your dog will die ealier then and average sized dog, and would have health complications.
*
Coz puppies need proper nutrients to grow during puppy stage, so these irresponsible breeders think they can cheat genetics (and the dog owner) by not providing enough nutrients to stunt the puppy's growth thus they "appear" to be small size.... There actually are people who believe and subscribe to this method just to keep their dog small sized.... doh.gif


QUOTE(ZenoxV23 @ Jun 26 2011, 02:38 AM)
i am more of a large sized dogs breeder... i focus on GSD, rott and dobe... but my place is not really a kennel la, i call it maple ranch... i give home to dogs who people do not care for anymore, people who gives their dog away coz moving into condo's, i have fish, ducks, chickens, goats, lizards, tarantulas.. soon to come horse and cows... finding for piglets but cant seem to find... ahahaha
*
I would love to visit your ranch.... Especially to see your dogs and horses.... Ok, back to topic before it drag further....

This post has been edited by CyaNide27: Jun 26 2011, 02:42 AM
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 02:43 AM

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QUOTE(ZenoxV23 @ Jun 26 2011, 02:38 AM)
i am more of a large sized dogs breeder... i focus on GSD, rott and dobe... but my place is not really a kennel la, i call it maple ranch... i give home to dogs who people do not care for anymore, people who gives their dog away coz moving into condo's, i have fish, ducks, chickens, goats, lizards, tarantulas.. soon to come horse and cows... finding for piglets but cant seem to find... ahahaha
*
sounds like a farm wink.gif


Ah cyanide... when i see the posts/threads in the Pet Selling are of LYN..
i wanna go in and comment.. sigh but ppl will scold if disrupting their business =s

LYN mods should go around looking for some guide on buying dogs.. what people need to know etc...

there are plenty of them in overseas forum..

it will also help ppl note that getting a pet no matter how big/small/ or a reptile..
they need to have responsibility..

they cant just get bored of it and throw them to the side as if they are toys sad.gif
Reanne
post Jun 26 2011, 02:46 AM

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Horses?? Did I hear horses??? I'm so going! But when I come back from Japan T.T

But don't forget that just cuz they're champline doesn't mean they will definitely have no problems. My corgi was from a supposedly very good champline but she's got some patella problems.

This post has been edited by Reanne: Jun 26 2011, 02:48 AM
CyaNide27
post Jun 26 2011, 02:48 AM

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Yes, some even curse or scold you for disrupting their sales coz that is the only thing they concern about.... Many people in the forum are not really observant on forum rules or pinned threads imo.... Take an example adoption thread is pinned there but people still open new threads on adoption.... Rule says no stud service topics but people still seek/advertise for stud service....


Added on June 26, 2011, 2:51 amOne forumer Divas once highlighted about the rampant amount of puppymill sellers and backyard breeders in pet store section but the thread has now gone many pages away....

This post has been edited by CyaNide27: Jun 26 2011, 02:51 AM
ZenoxV23
post Jun 26 2011, 02:56 AM

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QUOTE(Reanne @ Jun 26 2011, 02:46 AM)
Horses?? Did I hear horses??? I'm so going! But when I come back from Japan T.T

But don't forget that just cuz they're champline doesn't mean they will definitely have no problems. My corgi was from a supposedly very good champline but she's got some patella problems.
*
soon to come lo.... no horses yet... for me malaysian champ does not mean anything... my GSD comes from champ line from sieger show in germany... hehehe his 4th generation fathers side is currently ranked number 2/3 world wide if not mistaken... the mother side has 2 famous bloodline which ranked number 4 and 7 worldwide.... sad part was he was not able to join the show in malaysia coz his tail broken becoz his mother stepped it vmad.gif mad.gif
Reanne
post Jun 26 2011, 03:00 AM

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Sad to hear that, I love GSDs but will probably get from working line rather than show.
ZenoxV23
post Jun 26 2011, 03:04 AM

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QUOTE(Reanne @ Jun 26 2011, 03:00 AM)
Sad to hear that, I love GSDs but will probably get from working line rather than show.
*
i just got myself a sable workline GSD... 2 months old... the earlier batch was trained and sent to najib s house as his guard dogs... so waiting this pup to be my guard ahaha... and as iam typing she is sleeping on my lap...
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 03:07 AM

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workingline GSD is definitely better..

the show ones if you notice.. the hind legs are wayyy shorter..
it is a defect.. this was covered by the BBC documentary too (=

they show old drawings of the dogs.. compared to today's showdogs..
such huge differences =s


Cyanide is right =s more and more of this back yard breeders..

personally if there was nothing wrong with my Tiffie.. I'd have gotten her to mate once only and sell the pups off...

but just once... not more... I can't bear to see my dogter <strike>being raped</strike> having too many bf =_=

This post has been edited by KiyoshiJoz: Jun 26 2011, 03:08 AM
Reanne
post Jun 26 2011, 03:11 AM

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The GSDs in the documentary stand pretty, but walk like frogs. Working line is the way to go. If want a dog that looks pretty but with bad health or genetic defects, better go buy a pretty stuffed dog. Cheaper also.
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 08:25 AM

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Hence thats why Champions/champ lineage =/= good health

i think the champ of the prestigious Crufts Dog Show had a genetic disease too..

and the King Charles Cavalier breed is not healthy at all.. it is a guarantee that one or 2 of the disease specific to the KCC will show up in the poor breed's lifetime

its gotten to the point where people buy dogs and puppies with the realisation that in a few years time they will have to go through the sadness of loosing it...
only a handful gets to very old age..
and dogs were meant to live to 12-13 years no matter how small the size back then...

This post has been edited by KiyoshiJoz: Jun 26 2011, 08:26 AM
verulin
post Jun 26 2011, 06:02 PM

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QUOTE(KiyoshiJoz @ Jun 26 2011, 02:33 AM)
i have heard of news where kittens were pressed into jars.. called bonsai kittens

Bonsai Kittens

despicable )=

zenox.. where is your breed area? for future ref when my gf and I finally find enough place in our hearts for another little one
and what breeds do you breed?
*
actually the bonsai kitten was a joke. It's not real (thank god!)
http://tafkac.org/ulz/bonsai.html

This post has been edited by verulin: Jun 26 2011, 06:03 PM
muchan86
post Jun 26 2011, 06:13 PM

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QUOTE(KiyoshiJoz @ Jun 26 2011, 08:25 AM)
Hence thats why Champions/champ lineage =/= good health

i think the champ of the prestigious Crufts Dog Show had a genetic disease too..

and the King Charles Cavalier breed is not healthy at all.. it is a guarantee that one or 2 of the disease specific to the KCC will show up in the poor breed's lifetime

its gotten to the point where people buy dogs and puppies with the realisation that in a few years time they will have to go through the sadness of loosing it...
only a handful gets to very old age..
and dogs were meant to live to 12-13 years no matter how small the size back then...
*
There's one thing I dont understand... people seems to be misunderstood bout champion lineage and they tend to go for that 'line' instead of pet quality. I mean if I were a show handler of course I would go for the so-called champion lineage but will get my puppy from the reputable show breeder because I know I will get the puppy I want since they're showing their dogs. But nowadays many 'breeder' are now use the 'champion lineage' as the traits to sell their puppies i.e. grandfather imported from German, taiwan, etc or grandfather is the malaysian champion etc etc.

I realize some people feels like getting those champion lineage puppies will somehow make them so proud with the fact 'champion lineage' but for me, I feels there's nothing different from these 2 pups except 1 from show quality and 1 for pet quality.


TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 09:02 PM

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I rather take Pet Quality anytime )=
CyaNide27
post Jun 26 2011, 09:11 PM

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champion lineage also dont neccesarily mean the pups turn out to be of show quality coz there is no guaranty on that, it depends on which gene they got and also the development during puppy stage....
however, the term champion lineage sounds so appealing to gullible people that these unethical business people cash in on their ignorance....
hence i mentioned that champion lineage is not the same as having champion parents, NEITHER is it same as show quality which would cost in the range above 5 digits....
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 09:17 PM

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just notice the thread is pinned.. thanks to the mods (=
I appreciate it a lot...
hopefully this will help educate people

We should have a system where there is a tag for good sellers and breeders...

if they are good.. propagate them here...
if not.. put them in the hall of shame...

some do not come out to LYN so everything really is based on rumours..
but Irene Kang is 1 bad rotten apple already from many people's experience
muchan86
post Jun 26 2011, 09:25 PM

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QUOTE(CyaNide27 @ Jun 26 2011, 09:11 PM)
champion lineage also dont neccesarily mean the pups turn out to be of show quality coz there is no guaranty on that, it depends on which gene they got and also the development during puppy stage....
however, the term champion lineage sounds so appealing to gullible people that these unethical business people cash in on their ignorance....
hence i mentioned that champion lineage is not the same as having champion parents, NEITHER is it same as show quality which would cost in the range above 5 digits....
*
Ya, even when both parents are champion, there's no guarantee that all puppies is show quality. From 1 litter it could be at least 1 or 2 that could be categorized as pet and show quality. It would be good if seller put their puppies as show quality or pet quality for sale provided their reputable and also show breeder. Somehow I prefer show breeder than some reputable breeder cause we cant be sure that 'some' reputable breeder is really what we thought of wink.gif



QUOTE(KiyoshiJoz @ Jun 26 2011, 09:17 PM)
just notice the thread is pinned.. thanks to the mods (=
I appreciate it a lot...
hopefully this will help educate people

We should have a system where there  is a tag for good sellers and breeders...

if they are good.. propagate them here...
if not.. put them in the hall of shame...

some do not come out to LYN so everything really is based on rumours..
but Irene Kang is 1 bad rotten apple already from many people's experience
*
I've actually know bout Irene Kang from Benjac that refers to Scubby but I never thought that she really have so many puppies that carries many illness. This is why I said some reputable breeder doesn't mean their puppy is perfect. If I were to have more money I will go for show breeder instead and get their pet quality if not going for show cause their pet quality might be more costly but at least I'm sure that the puppy wont really have much problem rather than buying cheap puppy but need to bare the medical cost.


TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 09:30 PM

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We only found out about benjac after a thorough search )=

I think Tiffie's batch wasn't far off from Scubby's although its a different breed..

I remember Tiffie having some "puppy rashes" which scubby also has..
(turned out was a skin problem)

I've updated the main information on Tea-cup size/big bone/champion lineage info by cyanide...

Also updated breeders with bad reputation..
if you guys come across anyone and have proof please post here..
i'll keep this thread active and updated as much as possible
CyaNide27
post Jun 26 2011, 10:05 PM

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regarding to petshop puppies.... yes they look cute, they look active, they look as good as those that come from reputable breeders.... BUT those are just physical outlooks....
just think logically.... if a responsible (NOT NECESSARILY reputable) show breeder owns 2 great specimens of the particular breed to mate, there are higher chances of getting good quality litters, if not within the bare minimum of their breed standards.... these people would rather conduct the sale of their puppies on their own because reputable breeders WANT to know WHO is gonna own their puppies and be kept updated....
even if the petshop says that a particular puppy has champion lineage (not even champion parents), SO WHAT? highly that this puppy was the last of its batch where the not-responsible breeder couldnt sell it probably due to defects or hidden illnesses thus sell at lower price to petshops. Would you want to get a potentially sick puppy at a marked up price by these petshops?
but most of them time, petshops usually get their supply from puppy mills. why?
1. cheap
2. easily and readily available

to be honest, my first dog was from the petshop as i was once a ignorant primary school kid who wanted a puppy for a pet.... turns out, she incured so much of vet bills due to health conditions, nevertheless our family still loves her, but the expenses is very taxing on the family which all these were unneccesary and could have been avoided if we had gotten from a responsible breeder....
so think quadruple times before you land yourself into an impulse purchase at the petshop.

btw, reputable does not equals responsible.
verulin
post Jun 26 2011, 10:08 PM

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QUOTE(verulin @ Jun 26 2011, 12:08 AM)
for those in Ipoh, avoid the breeder from All About Pets
http://my.wowcity.com/ipoh/locbus2/1781249...-about-pets.htm

so sorry to hear of your loss sad.gif
*
I should elaborate on why I said this.

I used to volunteer at a vet clinic in Ipoh. The breeder from that shop breeds mainly poodles. Many times, we received terribly ill puppies that we just couldnt' seem to cure. They had diarrhea, vomiting, fever and wouldn't eat. As they were so small, it was very difficult to treat them.
Even other vets couldn't do much.
She once brought in a puppy that was boarded at her clinic that also got the sickness.
We offered to contact someone to help her have her water checked for bacterial contamination, but she refused.
and don't get me started on her attitude...she was such a b***.
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 26 2011, 10:38 PM

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This kinda breeder has a know-it-all attitude... not fit t be 1 )=<

best breeders are those who just happens to own purebreeds.. who decide to breed it once and then let it go to someone else for a fee...

most of the time breeders will be breeding for profit as what cyanide says )=


keep more of this expose coming people..
if you happen to be a victim of such breeders please share the info so we can help others
greenleafyveggie
post Jun 27 2011, 01:50 PM

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Hi, I am interested to get a pup from Junnie, does anyone have any feedback for her puppies? So far i have not come across any bad reputation of hers from searching on google..
After researching about unethical breeders and also my friend had a bad experience with buying a pup from a very popular petshop which died from parvo 1 week later, I really want to ensure I don't buy a sick puppy.
CyaNide27
post Jun 27 2011, 01:56 PM

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QUOTE(greenleafyveggie @ Jun 27 2011, 01:50 PM)
Hi, I am interested to get a pup from Junnie, does anyone have any feedback for her puppies? So far i have not come across any bad reputation of hers from searching on google..
After researching about unethical breeders and also my friend had a bad experience with buying a pup from a very popular petshop which died from parvo 1 week later, I really want to ensure I don't buy a sick puppy.
*
google up for the criteria/description of a responsible and ethical breeder.... does this person you want to purchase a pup from fits the description? if they dont fit, then you should think twice....
verulin
post Jun 27 2011, 05:04 PM

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QUOTE(greenleafyveggie @ Jun 27 2011, 01:50 PM)
Hi, I am interested to get a pup from Junnie, does anyone have any feedback for her puppies? So far i have not come across any bad reputation of hers from searching on google..
After researching about unethical breeders and also my friend had a bad experience with buying a pup from a very popular petshop which died from parvo 1 week later, I really want to ensure I don't buy a sick puppy.
*
try asking for the numbers of her previous clients so you can ask them for feedback. If she seems reluctant to give them, then you should start to suspect something...
aiyoyoann
post Jun 27 2011, 05:40 PM

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MUST NOT BUY FROM IRENE KANG.

She is a very unethical breeder from Penang.
Most of her dogs are sick .
You don't have to even think twice to or not to buy from her.
You will REGRET not because the money you could've spent
buying dog from her BUT because you will have to see your
lovely pet suffers from ton of diseases.

This is a Very Serious Matter.
Take this or you'll regret for sure...!
I am talking from experience & I don't want other pets/pet owners
to suffer what my baby tiffie had been through
and also what I am suffering now.

You can PM me directly If you need any further info/proof.
I have receipt from buying tiffie, her birthcert, death cert & report.

This post has been edited by aiyoyoann: Jun 27 2011, 05:43 PM
CyaNide27
post Jun 27 2011, 07:31 PM

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QUOTE(verulin @ Jun 27 2011, 05:04 PM)
try asking for the numbers of her previous clients so you can ask them for feedback. If she seems reluctant to give them, then you should start to suspect something...
*
this method not really secure also.... she might give those that have no problems but dont disclose those that have complains....
muchan86
post Jun 27 2011, 08:31 PM

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QUOTE(CyaNide27 @ Jun 27 2011, 07:31 PM)
this method not really secure also.... she might give those that have no problems but dont disclose those that have complains....
*
I think she refer to asking her previous client? I mean personally ask those who bought from her before rather than going through her to reach her client?
verulin
post Jun 27 2011, 10:19 PM

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QUOTE(CyaNide27 @ Jun 27 2011, 07:31 PM)
this method not really secure also.... she might give those that have no problems but dont disclose those that have complains....
*
QUOTE(muchan86 @ Jun 27 2011, 08:31 PM)
I think she refer to asking her previous client? I mean personally ask those who bought from her before rather than going through her to reach her client?
*
then maybe can ask some vets? they might know a thing or two. but it wouldn't hurt to just try and contact her previous clients.
CyaNide27
post Jun 27 2011, 10:38 PM

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QUOTE(muchan86 @ Jun 27 2011, 08:31 PM)
I think she refer to asking her previous client? I mean personally ask those who bought from her before rather than going through her to reach her client?
*
Coz got mention that if the seller refuse then should suspect, so i'm assuming that is ask for contacts from the seller themselves....
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 27 2011, 10:43 PM

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QUOTE(greenleafyveggie @ Jun 27 2011, 01:50 PM)
Hi, I am interested to get a pup from Junnie, does anyone have any feedback for her puppies? So far i have not come across any bad reputation of hers from searching on google..
After researching about unethical breeders and also my friend had a bad experience with buying a pup from a very popular petshop which died from parvo 1 week later, I really want to ensure I don't buy a sick puppy.
*
As other forumers suggested.. go visit her shop first and foremost
(I heard her shop is located somewhere in PJ/Subang area)
Check to see if the dogs there are well treated..
Ask around the forums for people who might have bought from her
(do this by replying on the pet clubs below which refers to the particular breed you are interested in)


Ask for a few things
MKA cert-> check for inbreeding
If there are inbreeding-> check whether or not the pup's dam and sire has any genetic illness etc.
(Unlike U.S.A, Malaysia cannot check for history of illnesses in a dam and a sire so you gotta dig it out from her)
Not all inbreded pups are bad... but its not encouraged... and preferably better not..
but nowadays its hard to find those kinda puppies who are not resulted from inbreeding before..

use your judgement and common sense as well as if you feel something is wrong.. or do not feel quite right
go back and do a little more research..

remember to ask questions about the pup from her...
(usually a responsible breeder will not hide anything from you)
Ask about the temperament of the dam and sire etc etc...

Good luck in getting your pup (=


muchan86
post Jun 27 2011, 10:59 PM

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QUOTE(KiyoshiJoz @ Jun 27 2011, 10:43 PM)
As other forumers suggested.. go visit her shop first and foremost
(I heard her shop is located somewhere in PJ/Subang area)
Check to see if the dogs there are well treated..
Ask around the forums for people who might have bought from her
(do this by replying on the pet clubs below which refers to the particular breed you are interested in)
Ask for a few things
MKA cert-> check for inbreeding
If there are inbreeding-> check whether or not the pup's dam and sire has any genetic illness etc.
(Unlike U.S.A, Malaysia cannot check for history of illnesses in a dam and a sire so you gotta dig it out from her)
Not all inbreded pups are bad... but its not encouraged... and preferably better not..
but nowadays its hard to find those kinda puppies who are not resulted from inbreeding before..

use your judgement and common sense as well as if you feel something is wrong.. or do not feel quite right
go back and do a little more research..

remember to ask questions about the pup from her...
(usually a responsible breeder will not hide anything from you)
Ask about the temperament of the dam and sire etc etc...

Good luck in getting your pup (=
*
She doesn't have shop. Basically she have those puppies at her house and some of them are with MKA cert but she did have puppies that no cert as well.

@nicole : I went to her place twice I think and if not mistaken she told me the parents of the puppies are not with her but if I really keen to see the parents she will try to get their picture for me to see smile.gif
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 27 2011, 11:08 PM

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eh i thought her bf and her opened up a sort of "shop"?
what i heard is.. it isn't really a shop.. more like a kennel...
CyaNide27
post Jun 27 2011, 11:46 PM

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QUOTE(muchan86 @ Jun 27 2011, 10:59 PM)
She doesn't have shop. Basically she have those puppies at her house and some of them are with MKA cert but she did have puppies that no cert as well.

@nicole : I went to her place twice I think and if not mistaken she told me the parents of the puppies are not with her but if I really keen to see the parents she will try to get their picture for me to see smile.gif
*
i personally prefer to see the parents physically.... whistling.gif
benjac
post Jun 28 2011, 12:11 AM

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QUOTE(KiyoshiJoz @ Jun 26 2011, 01:32 AM)
)= yeah the truth is.. we bought from irene thinking its better to buy from her, a home breeder...
instead of going to shops (which has a higher chance of their puppies coming from puppy mills)

Whereas i was made to understand Benjac (owner of mellomouse blog (=) went up to Penang.. we didn't have the time to go up nor the vehicle to do so..

as such we didnt have a chance to inspect the location and see how was the condition of the pups before it was brought to us..

its hard to find a good breeder anymore
*
If anyone does get a chance to meet Irene Kang personally without knowing her bad reputation, you will surely fall for her promises. She talks non stop and you won't have a chance to ask her anything. I had a list of questions ready and yet she bulldozed me over when I tried to ask. My husband was shooting the dogs and in the background you can hear her talk talk talk talk. Anyway I was so in love with her Westies (Ozzy and Christy) that I didn't suspect a word she said. I wasn't even really looking at the puppies laugh.gif

Irene lives in a semi-d. Obviously a well-to-do family and it looks like a happy family home with her kids grown up. I didn't get to see where she keeps all her dogs. Everytime I ask to see another breed, she will carry them in and bring out another. Always 2-3 dogs of the same breed. At that time, it never crossed my mind just how many dogs she has inside her house. Easily a dozen and more.

Honestly, we totally fell for her "home bred with love" and "dogs are part of the family" selling point. I guess by seeing her and her dogs with our own eyes made it worst. Everything was so perfect that we paid deposit on the spot even though our intention was to just see. So for all the people who bought from her, I bet we all became "victim" the same way shocking.gif

Another point to add: Irene always assured us that she waits with the puppies outside of the vet for their vaccines. She will wait until is her turn only enters and leaves immediately to assure the puppies don't get sick from other sick dogs inside the vet. The irony from this is, her own home is filled with dogs that are sick surrounds all her newborn puppies doh.gif

This post has been edited by benjac: Jun 28 2011, 01:11 AM
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jun 28 2011, 04:13 AM

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QUOTE(benjac @ Jun 28 2011, 12:11 AM)
If anyone does get a chance to meet Irene Kang personally without knowing her bad reputation, you will surely fall for her promises. She talks non stop and you won't have a chance to ask her anything. I had a list of questions ready and yet she bulldozed me over when I tried to ask. My husband was shooting the dogs and in the background you can hear her talk talk talk talk. Anyway I was so in love with her Westies (Ozzy and Christy) that I didn't suspect a word she said. I wasn't even really looking at the puppies  laugh.gif

Irene lives in a semi-d. Obviously a well-to-do family and it looks like a happy family home with her kids grown up. I didn't get to see where she keeps all her dogs. Everytime I ask to see another breed, she will carry them in and bring out another. Always 2-3 dogs of the same breed. At that time, it never crossed my mind just how many dogs she has inside her house. Easily a dozen and more.

Honestly, we totally fell for her "home bred with love" and "dogs are part of the family" selling point. I guess by seeing her and her dogs with our own eyes made it worst. Everything was so perfect that we paid deposit on the spot even though our intention was to just see. So for all the people who bought from her, I bet we all became "victim" the same way  shocking.gif

Another point to add: Irene always assured us that she waits with the puppies outside of the vet for their vaccines. She will wait until is her turn only enters and leaves immediately to assure the puppies don't get sick from other sick dogs inside the vet. The irony from this is, her own home is filled with dogs that are sick surrounds all her newborn puppies  doh.gif
*
sigh as what other forumers say...
if she wants to put up a front as a responsible breeder its easy... and thats why so many ppl fall into this trap...

i just need more proof about her yorkies..
we don't know who else bought her other yorkie pups...

and as i know.. its been a long time since she has a litter from her yorkies...
she is mainly selling westies and silkies...

even if she could at least answer our query properly instead of washing her hands off the whole matter will be sufficient..
we are not even seeking for compensation..
we're just seeking for an answer and to prevent future pups with similar condition from being born )=
less 1 future sick puppy and heart sick owner in this world then sad.gif


Added on June 30, 2011, 11:29 pm
QUOTE
Hi Josh,

Sorry for the late reply. I just got back from overseas and was told by a friend from the forum about your postings on LYN Forum.

I am very sorry for the loss of Tiffie and would like to express my deepest condolences to you and girlfriend. I know how painful it is for you and Joanne to lose such a beautiful dog.

The sire and dam of your dog have had 3 litters, totaling 10 puppies. This is the first time that a puppy from this pair of parents has died of congenital heart failure. All other puppies sold, including 1 female pup that I kept for myself are all healthy and doing fine. Both the dam and sire are also strong & healthy.

I have consulted my vet and he thinks that it is a 1 off thing since all the other puppies are healthy. He also says that congenital may not necessarily be genetic. Ask some breeders and they should be able to tell you that occasionally, there may be 1 or 2 cases of congenital abnormalities like cleft palate, heart defects, etc. out o f the many litters delivered. This may not be due to a genetic factor but environmental causes in the womb before birth like exposure to chemicals, drugs, etc.

As a responsible breeder, I will definitely not breed the pair if it is found to be a genetic issue.

You mentioned that your puppy's fur was messy & smelly at time of delivery. I am quite shocked to hear that. All my puppies are very well taken care of, kept in very clean environment and are given a bath & thorough groom before delivery (I make this a point with all my puppies sold). She was in tiptop condition. There was not even a blemish on her skin. All our puppies are even trained to eat kibbles direct from the pack and trained to be independent so that they will adjust easily and not cry in the new owner's home due to separation anxiety.

As for Taco, the owner has taken the westie puppy away for 2 weeks before it died. Anything could have happened in the 2 weeks. The puppy could have contracted the virus while under her care. She was given a week's health guarantee. She was shouting on the phone asking for full refund, refusing to hear me out and I had to put the phone down. I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but she did eventually buy a second westie puppy from me with a discount of RM500.

The other thing is about Benjac. She was not grateful to me for selling her a beautiful westie called Scubby, and she appears be very unreasonable to me. She is still harping away about me. She claimed that her dog has hip dysplasia. You may read further from this link: http://homeapet.com/english/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4549 to know the truth.

Sorry Josh, to bore you with this and you may see this as me giving "excuses" but I need to let you know the other side of the story and it is very frustrating to hear and read about all these inflammatory remarks about my puppies and my breedings. I am truly disheartened that I've been labeled "unethical" and "irresponsible" breeder when I truly put alot of effort and love into taking care and breeding my dogs.
One more thing, could you pls ask Benjac to remove my address in this link: http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1932845, failing which I will have to lodge a police report for privacy and safety of myself and my family. It is unlawful for her to be disclosing details (my address etc.) to the public.

Once again, I am truly so sorry for your loss of Tiffie. I hope this clarifies the comments about me. I hope you will fair to me.

Best Regards,
Irene
This is what Irene sent to me..
you guys be the judge...

And I'm sorry I won't reply via pm as I want this out in the public
As for the dirty fur at time of delivery

I bear testament to it..
I personally do not like lying and therefore will not lie..

When I took Tiffie.. we were surprised how coarse her fur was and tangled..
At first we thought nothing of it thinking maybe that is how puppy fur is like..
And we didn't dare to use the un-tangler comb (the comb with steel edge) for fear of hurting her

Then 1 night I just couldn't it and I started combing Tiffie..
It was heck painful for her.. and every comb I make my heart pains
But I manage to untangle her fur and gave her a nice bath after which she began to smell really nice...

I'm sorry Irene Kang but dogs just don't lie and they certainly cant tangle 90% of their fur themselves..


As for the other allegations.. it is not for me to prove.. I will let them tell their story...(taco and scubby)
As for the address part... I don't think its wrong to put it out.. unless there has been a death threat or a threat to cause menace at your place..
But I will tell benjac to do it for the sake of civility...

we don't seek to find war with any parties..
we just tell it as it is...
this thread seeks to cause awareness amongst public..


I fully realise that there is a degree of uncertainty that VSD may not be genetic..
If it can be proven I will apologise and i will take back my words..
However I will not take this thread down as this serves as a good reminder for others who are planning to get a companion
I will however take away details of how Tiffie died...

Only if it can be proven..
if possible could you please forward me medical reports for Sire/Dam of Tiffie namely -> Huahua Star and Max...
Also the grand sire and grand dam... -> genetic defects may skip a whole generation

And it cannot be denied that either you or where you get the dogs from are products of inbreeding..(We have Tiffie's cert)
There is a high chance of genetic diseases being passed down

no doubt it is hard to find a dog which is not a product of inbreeding anymore.. but I do know of breeders (albeit outstation ones) who do not condone nor practices inbreeding... and I wish for you to stop inbreeding as a start...

If you could do that, I will be willing to take down your name from the list
(again.. we do not have anything against breeders nor are we looking for a war.. we are educating people.. and if we know the breeder is willing to change his/her practice to conform to ethical styled breeding.. we are more than happy to let it go.. and in fact I will personally recommend you on to others)

Have a good day


This post has been edited by KiyoshiJoz: Jun 30 2011, 11:29 PM
aiyoyoann
post Jul 1 2011, 12:23 AM

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QUOTE
Hi Josh,

Sorry for the late reply. I just got back from overseas and was told by a friend from the forum about your postings on LYN Forum.

I am very sorry for the loss of Tiffie and would like to express my deepest condolences to you and girlfriend. I know how painful it is for you and Joanne to lose such a beautiful dog.

The sire and dam of your dog have had 3 litters, totaling 10 puppies. This is the first time that a puppy from this pair of parents has died of congenital heart failure. All other puppies sold, including 1 female pup that I kept for myself are all healthy and doing fine. Both the dam and sire are also strong & healthy.

I have consulted my vet and he thinks that it is a 1 off thing since all the other puppies are healthy. He also says that congenital may not necessarily be genetic. Ask some breeders and they should be able to tell you that occasionally, there may be 1 or 2 cases of congenital abnormalities like cleft palate, heart defects, etc. out o f the many litters delivered. This may not be due to a genetic factor but environmental causes in the womb before birth like exposure to chemicals, drugs, etc.

As a responsible breeder, I will definitely not breed the pair if it is found to be a genetic issue.

You mentioned that your puppy's fur was messy & smelly at time of delivery. I am quite shocked to hear that. All my puppies are very well taken care of, kept in very clean environment and are given a bath & thorough groom before delivery (I make this a point with all my puppies sold). She was in tiptop condition. There was not even a blemish on her skin. All our puppies are even trained to eat kibbles direct from the pack and trained to be independent so that they will adjust easily and not cry in the new owner's home due to separation anxiety.

As for Taco, the owner has taken the westie puppy away for 2 weeks before it died. Anything could have happened in the 2 weeks. The puppy could have contracted the virus while under her care. She was given a week's health guarantee. She was shouting on the phone asking for full refund, refusing to hear me out and I had to put the phone down. I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but she did eventually buy a second westie puppy from me with a discount of RM500.

The other thing is about Benjac. She was not grateful to me for selling her a beautiful westie called Scubby, and she appears be very unreasonable to me. She is still harping away about me. She claimed that her dog has hip dysplasia. You may read further from this link: http://homeapet.com/english/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4549 to know the truth.

Sorry Josh, to bore you with this and you may see this as me giving "excuses" but I need to let you know the other side of the story and it is very frustrating to hear and read about all these inflammatory remarks about my puppies and my breedings. I am truly disheartened that I've been labeled "unethical" and "irresponsible" breeder when I truly put alot of effort and love into taking care and breeding my dogs.
One more thing, could you pls ask Benjac to remove my address in this link: http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1932845, failing which I will have to lodge a police report for privacy and safety of myself and my family. It is unlawful for her to be disclosing details (my address etc.) to the public.

Once again, I am truly so sorry for your loss of Tiffie. I hope this clarifies the comments about me. I hope you will fair to me.

Best Regards,
Irene



Hello Irene,


Firstly, when we took Tiffie home, we were all fine with her tangled-fur & her smell
I can be honest to you that it took us almost three weeks to bathe her out of the smell.
About the tangle part I left it for my boyfriend to do because it hurts my eyes to see her in pain
when we comb her. We thought FINE,maybe its because she's still puppy so we can bear with it.

Then we found rashes on her bottom part which at first we thought it was puppy rashes
but it got worse months later,so we took her to the vet and confirmed she was already infected
with fungal after he did some test on her .
I can assure that it is IMPOSSIBLE that Tiffie will be infected with the fungal in my place
as she sleeps with me on my bed & furthermore, there is no such rashes on my other puppy.

As of well trained,yes she was really a very good baby and independent too
I won't deny that as because of her behavior,I really love her.

QUOTE
This may not be due to a genetic factor but environmental causes in the womb before birth like exposure to chemicals, drugs, etc.

Are you telling me that she might be already infected in the womb of her dam?and it was also caused by the environment in your place?

Look, I have already lost Tiffie and NO other puppy can ever replace her .
I am not asking for refund nor do i want to give you a bad reputation .
There is no use for me to do so!It doesn't give me any Good!
I just want you to really give a good environment for your puppies
and bring your dogs for medical check up regularly as Tiffie isn't the only puppy
that was infected with diseases (Taco & Scubby for eg)
There may be more puppies had already infected but the owners do not want to seek problems
or they might not even know the cause of the illness.
I do not want other owners to experience what I'd been through and also
I do not like to see other dogs to go through that kind of pain that Tiffie had went through.
It really does give a big impact in my life & haunt me every time when I think of her.

I am sorry if I did really offended you but as a buyer/owner
I do have the responsibility to tell others what my boyfriend ,me & Tiffiie
had been through .It was told by the vet that the hole had already been
in her heart ever since the day she was born.



verulin
post Jul 1 2011, 09:34 PM

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seriously? there is already so much evidence against Irene Kang, and yet she keeps trying to come up with excuses. doh.gif
(^(@)^)
post Jul 2 2011, 03:31 AM

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Breed because of money some more breed a sick puppy!

What kinda human are you Mrs Irene Kang? Wont you feel shameful? You are cold blood animal!

Even you have made a police report for yourself or your family got any usage?

Tiffie , scubby and tako owner have you all tried to report to SPCA? They will investigate da issue if 3 of da puppy owner go report on the same time.

akmal81
post Jul 2 2011, 03:39 AM

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her house not for animals to live one ... and human too
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jul 2 2011, 10:43 AM

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QUOTE((^(@)^) @ Jul 2 2011, 03:31 AM)
Breed because of money some more breed a sick puppy!

What kinda human are you Mrs Irene Kang? Wont you feel shameful? You are cold blood animal!

Even you have made a police report for yourself or your family got any usage?

Tiffie , scubby and tako owner have you all tried to report to SPCA? They will investigate da issue if 3 of da puppy owner go report on the same time.
*
its not really a case of animal abuse
doubt spca has any jurisdiction in this and hence why benjac reported it to Penang's MPPP (local council)
under the guise of having too many puppies in the house..
(See thread 1)

there is no rule/law barring them from breeding from doing inbreeding nor passing of genetic disease
(and as I say, if she can successfully prove that in the line of Tiffie's lineage including grand dam/sire, I will apologise)
However, until and unless she stops inbreeding and or clear up the doubts of some of the issues relating to her.. her name will stay on that list..
Sorry mrs. Irene Kang..

Think of it as a way for you to regain your reputation and come back stronger...
This is actually a chance for you to prove that you are an ethical breeder as you claimed...
If you are willing to change.. and change can be seen.. I will gladly take your name off
Not only that.. I will personally RECOMMEND you...

This is your chance to make a stand as an ethical breeder.. I hope you will do the right thing..
Start by stopping inbreeding.. then provide a good explanation to some of the issues highlighted by the pet owners whom you have sold pups to..
your pups do not have to be of champion lineage in order to be healthy..
Right now if I could turn back time.. I'd hope that Tiffie wasn't born of any lineage which has hereditary disease/illnesses

The ball is in your court Mrs. Irene...
You want me to be fair to you.. I am being fair to you..

I'm giving you a platform to clear yourself and also a chance to be a better breeder..
You have a chance of reversing something bad and setting a good example!

I hope you will make this opportunity count..
If there is a real improvement from you..
I will be the first to get another pup from you..

This post has been edited by KiyoshiJoz: Jul 2 2011, 11:08 AM
(^(@)^)
post Jul 2 2011, 01:09 PM

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Totally agree that name or website shouldn't remove till she clear the doubts.

Maybe she don understand that this thread is create for what propose. Not that buyer need to pre caution on her only but also other irresponsible seller.

Just curious that why she don come here defence herself if she's a good breeder?


hebihime
post Jul 4 2011, 10:39 AM

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aiya..i really hate those illegal breeder.luckily i bought mine from a responsible home breeder.
sorry to hear about ur puppy.it was so sad.

another illegal and irresponsible breeder that i know is aryan petshop in klang.dun buy any furkids from him.all the puppy are infected.he will sell very cheap.if u do some research,there are so many complains about him
Jaroque
post Jul 4 2011, 10:55 AM

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sorry for the loses =(

This post has been edited by Jaroque: Jul 4 2011, 11:00 AM
ix3Rukia
post Jul 4 2011, 01:43 PM

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QUOTE(KiyoshiJoz @ Jun 28 2011, 04:13 AM)
As for the address part... I don't think its wrong to put it out.. unless there has been a death threat or a threat to cause menace at your place..
But I will tell benjac to do it for the sake of civility...
*
I dont want to side her , but she's right. you cant post people's address in public unless they say u could. Failing to do so would result of having u getting sued. Its under that stupid lawbook.

Once again i say , i'm truly sorry for your loss. Whatever that happens , god knows. In the future , karma will happen.

This post has been edited by ix3Rukia: Jul 4 2011, 01:44 PM
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jul 5 2011, 12:18 AM

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mm I wonder if benjac removed her address...
too bad she didnt post her address on her website...
benjac
post Jul 7 2011, 09:59 PM

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Ok I've removed the entire post. It's such a useless debate with that woman. What comes around, goes around.

Irene, if you are really reading this: Grow up and take responsibility.
blastberry
post Jul 8 2011, 06:43 PM

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hmm... sry for ur lost. i m a breeder too but i m not a dog breeder.. in fact i m a rodent one. wat she is doing is totally not acceptable. as a breeder i m very particular on my rodents that i make sure they r 100% healthy at all times. business of course make money but be responsible even tho have to sacrifice. Animals r just like us. They eat/zzzz/urine/poop... so be responsible. Bad Image she have.
TSKiyoshiJoz
post Jul 9 2011, 01:48 AM

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QUOTE(benjac @ Jul 7 2011, 09:59 PM)
Ok I've removed the entire post. It's such a useless debate with that woman. What comes around, goes around.

Irene, if you are really reading this: Grow up and take responsibility.
*
I've heard more stories about her....
hopefully the owners of those puppies will come out and make a stand...


Also reminder.. if you guys have anymore experiences with bad breeders (i.e the way they treat their pups/ the way they breed them/ dishonest breeders) please post here with evidence...

lets keep this alive..

kuluuluk
post Feb 18 2014, 06:11 PM

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So does anyone know where got get pets from reputable breeder? I'm looking for MS
dtags
post Feb 26 2014, 11:14 AM

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QUOTE(KiyoshiJoz @ Jul 9 2011, 01:48 AM)
I've heard more stories about her....
hopefully the owners of those puppies will come out and make a stand...
Also reminder.. if you guys have anymore experiences with bad breeders (i.e the way they treat their pups/ the way they breed them/ dishonest breeders) please post here with evidence...

lets keep this alive..
*
We have the same bad experience from Irene Kang. Hate her. Hv spent RM4000.00 at Medivet for my white schanauzer.
We bought it at RM1400.00 2 years ago. Luckily, he is doing well now.

Please keep this alive. Don't shut this line.

chauryih
post Oct 18 2015, 11:45 PM

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i am looking for puppy recently and come across to engage Irene recently. Then i found this post. So is anyone from Penang that can recommend me a good breeder to look for?
1234kingbling
post Oct 19 2015, 12:26 PM

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Hello there, I came across this thread and was shocked by the condition of the breeders.

Anyway, I have a Belgian shepherd and I got it from a breeder in Rawang. Rikono Kennel.

He is a good breeder. Takes the time and effort to explain and guide you. He has many breeds of dogs. Does K9 training. Food refusal. Protection training.

I would personally recommend it as my puppy was healthy and vaccinated. He also has a good amount of staff.

Thank you.

P.s : Not affiliated with the breeder. Just sharing my 2 cents as every owner deserves a good companion from decent breeder.

Cheers.

This post has been edited by 1234kingbling: Oct 19 2015, 12:26 PM
bobsj
post Jul 18 2017, 09:12 AM

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QUOTE(1234kingbling @ Oct 19 2015, 12:26 PM)
Hello there, I came across this thread and was shocked by the condition of the breeders.

Anyway, I have a Belgian shepherd and I got it from a breeder in Rawang. Rikono Kennel.

He is a good breeder. Takes the time and effort to explain and guide you. He has many breeds of dogs. Does K9 training. Food refusal. Protection training.

I would personally recommend it as my puppy was healthy and vaccinated. He also has a good amount of staff.

Thank you.

P.s : Not affiliated with the breeder. Just sharing my 2 cents as every owner deserves a good companion from decent breeder.

Cheers.
*


Thanks for the tip. Actually we've talked a lot about the bad breeders. But who or where can I find reputable breeders? I'm struggling to find.
GodsLove
post May 16 2019, 09:33 PM

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Just stumbled on this thread after my 5 months old Corgi passed away 3 days.

He had Meningitis, Patella Luxation and Hips Dysplasia.

My wife and I are just broken inside and felt its our responsibility to educate and reduce as many unethical breeders as much as we can.

If only Parents who went through this could gather and push the government on proper guidelines and punishment on such irresponsible act.

 

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