I am studying in TARC and it is ok to just take 3 subjects with f.math in it. That means f.math doesn't have to be 4th subject. But In many college/unis, further math must be the 4th subject in a-levels which mean we cant just take like phy, math and f.math in other colleges/uni. Why is it so? Will it affect my entry to top unis like NUS or NTU?

NUS and NTU i can almost certainly say that they only want students taking 4 subjects in A-Level..

heard from a speech by NUS.. but then i think it applies to NTU too since these 2 unis are that competitive..

i check the requirement for engineering in NTU, with just math and phy u can get into engineering courses

of course if u can cope wif hard work y not work hard now and suffer less during uni time?

btw in tarc there's no 3 subjects combination and u can only drop one aft u start class

yes i know, but think of it this way, if you can take maths & physics + just 1 more subject, so can many thousands or even millions of A-level students.
so for this case NUS and NTU will usually prioritize 4 subjects over 3 subjects.. and from my superficial observations tells me that too.. other top unis then i'm not quite sure..

perhaps i didn't answer your whole question la, i suggest you to attend talks by the unis you wanna enter, if available..

I though NUS/NTU only want their'singapore A Level'?

@JohnsonLoi there are several reasons why Further Maths is usually taken as the fourth A Level - we've discussed this countless times:

- any "good" university would require a minimum of 3 full A Levels, while most of the very good ones may require 3 plus an AS/A Level pass or 3.5 subjects. Before pursuing Further Maths, one of the more difficult A Levels, you'll be encouraged to explore other subjects so that they'll be selected as your primary subjects (to increase your chances of admission into university - whether you get into the very best or not is a different matter)

- for several exam boards (e.g. Edexcel) Maths and Further Maths have significant overlap in terms of their modules as well as content, i.e. you could pick Maths modules which can count towards a Further Maths grade, and vice versa. It is for this reason that Further Maths cannot always be standalone, as it is in many ways merely an extension of A Level Maths rather than a subject on its own

- for certain exam boards (e.g. CIE) Further Mathematics is separate from A Level Mathematics but is (quite strangely) only offered at A2 Level. While this means it is a standalone A Level, it's possible that it has connotations of being incomplete (as it is not composed of both AS and A2 like other subjects or other boards' Further Maths). However, the differences in structure of the Further Maths exams between CIE and the other boards is hardly a factor that is ever taken into consideration by any university (much like the differences between exam boards themselves, in particular structure and difficulty)

- for reasons derived from the facts above, some top universities disregard Further Maths as a standalone A Level that counts towards the satisfaction of the minimum number of subjects required (3) for certain courses

- only an extremely small number of courses actually require Further Maths at A Level, e.g. Mathematics at less than a handfull of universities, and permutations of that subject (with Statistics or Finance, for example) at the same schools. You may compare this with a huge number of courses that require Mathematics (most all Mathematics, Statistics, Economics, Econometrics, Actuarial Science, Risk Management, Operational Research, Engineering, Physics, and Computing courses), Physics (many Physics or Engineering courses), Chemistry (many Engineering, Science, Medicine, Dentistry, or Health Science courses), or Biology (many Medicine, Dentistry, Life Science, Health Science, or Science courses).

Actually no harm taking more subjects even if you dont do well, you can just disregard those subject in application I'm sure they won't take it into account..

Actually, that is not always true.

It really depends on where you want to go.

For some countries, their universities will be able to check your results beyond any results slips you submit. In the case of A Levels, most British universities won't ask you for proof as they'll be able to check it themselves.

For applications to British schools at the undergraduate level, you'll be required to submit the results of all your A Level subjects (past and current), as well as notify them of any you'll be sitting for later on. There is no way past this one.

If, after you've already secured an offer, you happen to fail some subjects (or do not as well) but still meet the offer conditions, all's well.

However, your performance before and up to the point of application might very well affect whether you get an offer or not.

Also, your offer depends heavily on the subjects you've taken, so you might get offers tailored to the subjects you have if you're not rejected.

so 'math, phy, chem' or 'math, phy, f.math' is better to enter top uni provideed i got the same result for engineering/IT　course?

Well that's a different question altogether. Getting the same result must be granted, otherwise the discussion is pointless. If you possess Chemistry and you are asked for/need an A, the same would almost definitely apply if you were taking Further Maths instead. It only differs when you have both/more subjects/exams of relevance, or if you only take AS Further Maths/AS Chemistry.

There are a very small number of Engineering courses I have seen for which Further Mathematics is a prerequisite for (perhaps Aeronautical at King's or Imperial). Aside from a couple of courses such as the example mentioned above, virtually no Engineering courses make Further Maths a requirement (up till now). Of course, starting from 2012, many courses will have significantly upgraded requirements in terms of grades and subjects (because enough time has passed for the schools to evaluate the significance of A* grades).

On the other hand, Chemistry is sometimes a requirement for Chemical Engineering, Petroleum/Petrochemical Engineering, and Materials Engineering.

Mathematics is always a requirement at any "decent" school. Physics is recommended for any Engineering course, of course, as not only is it much preferred (over a subject other than any of the 4 in discussion), it is also often a requirement (and certainly is for the better schools).

You need to decide - if you only take 3 subjects - whether anything that would require/use Chemistry is something you would consider. Otherwise, there's no question that Further Maths would be infinitely more relevant.

In the lone case that Further Maths is a requirement, both Maths and Physics are also required - leaving you absolutely no choice if you only choose 3 subjects.

Engineering is far more competitive and demanding in terms of grades for entry as compared to IT. Further Maths would never be required for IT (in contrast, Maths is often a requirement for Computing/Computer Science). However, Chemistry would only be as useful as Biology or Economics for IT. Computing or a more quantitative subject (i.e. Further Maths) would be preferred. If you can meet the standards for an Engineering offer from any of the big schools, IT won't be a problem at all.

I notice you've asked about the Singaporean schools. From what can be seen on the website of NUS, they have said that for Engineering, A Level Physics or Chemistry aren't necessarily needed (together), and that either one, or even Physics at AO Level, will suffice - how much of the actual selection standard is reflected in this, I do not know, but it's possible that the information is rather misleading, given that many comment on how "tough" it is to gain admission into NUS for a competitive, difficult course.

i love further maths!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#1 i cant live without it>@!@#!#buahah hahahahahah...no la i think my fmaths teacher is good...makes me love fmath more...hehehehehehehhehehehe i am soooooo gonna get my A*.....next year exam...spam spam spam!!!

hi, im final year student taking a-level at TARC as well (in middle of A2 during this post )

offtopic:
You can take as many subjects as you want actually. I have a friend who took 7 subjects: Maths, Further Maths, Chemistry, Economic, Physics, Literature, and General Paper (<is this counted?). He is trying to enter Imperial college .

ontopic:
I'm not aware of any uni/college that requires Further Maths in A-levels. Further Maths is one of the harder subjects. It should not be compulsory to take up Further Maths as the 4th subjects. Perhaps you misunderstood and Further Maths is just an option available in all the "subject packages".

Malaysia Nottingham requirements also the same. I'm not sure about other course but for the Mechanical course, its minimum BBC (math and physic is compulsory). no mention of f.math

f.math in not really useful unless you are planning to take up specialised course such as Actuarial

No, General Paper does not count.

In the UK and other countries it's not uncommon to see people take 5 or more subjects (out of Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, and Economics in particular, and sometimes Literature and History). However, they take this in almost 2 years, and it's often the modular kind where you can resit individual, 1/6 part components.

6 subjects is a bit extreme (not necessary, and for a Science degree, Literature and in some cases Economics would just be indulgences). However, if done over ~2 years, that's about 3 per year, not unlike the 3 per year that many of us have gone through - obviously not comparable since 6 exams will be taken at a go for A2/the final stages.

In Malaysia they just want you to do as well as possible at a minimal level to enter good universities (for those who can and want to), hence you're encouraged to take only 3-4 (and classes are only scheduled for that many, since the length of study is barely 1.3+ years, or in some cases, a year).

I disagree, Further Maths is quite useful for a lot of things. For one, it is a requirement for many Mathematics degrees and permutations of these with Statistics, Economics, Finance etc. It is also a new requirement for MORSE/MMORSE (next year on). It is also very useful for admission into and the study of Engineering degrees, and is revelant to admission and the study of Operational Research, Computing or Computer Science/Engineering, Statistics, Computational Finance, Financial Engineering, Quantitative Finance, Economics, Econometrics, Financial Economics, Financial Mathematics, Risk Management etc.

Even students who wouldn't really use it tend to take it - like those planning to do Medicine, Dentistry, Law, Accounting etc.

Is your friend studying at TARC? I thought they only let students choose from a list of subject combinations?

Yes, my friend also studied at TARC. He is my classmate.

The combinations is just a guideline. They gives you the list because they are lacking of lecturers and and unable to teach everyone. Besides, the class time would clashs.

But in reality, you can take as much subjects as you want in the test (as long as the subjects sitting do no clash). Its just that you might not have a class or lecturer to attend to.

For example, my friend took the combination (Maths, Further Maths, Chemistry, and Physics). Chemistry and Economic time clash.

So, my friend studied all by himself (no lecture, no notes), just a single economic textbook and some pass year questions. He received no help at all (so he claim ).

Whats amazing is that while the normal student took AS & A2 separately, he took the entire thing in one sitting. Meaning AS & A2 just after one year of study. And guess what his result is. A*!

Then, determined to get more A (to increase his chances of overseas studies), he took up Literature studies as well. That's 6 subjects in 1 1/2 years!

@ LightningFist
I'm not sure about other courses, but when I ask my Further maths lecturer, she told me I would most likely relearn it if I took up Engineering course in the future.

So, I told myself, if I'm going relearn it, might as well study it in A-level to build up the foundation first:

By the way, TARC A-level is CIE (Cambridge International Examination), not Edexcel (London Examination Board).

Edexcel is module-based. CIE is 2-sitting per year (May/June and Oct/Nov).

This post has been edited by MissIceRina: May 29 2011, 03:27 PM

I know very well how CIE works, thank you.

In your previous post you said Further Maths was "not useful" unless it was for something like Actuarial Science. That directly contradicts what you've just implied.

aaa... seems nice topic.. well, what different between futher maths and maths T? bro ts, u take maths T too?

My son will be doing his A levels in 2012. As he has no interests in pursuing science related degree courses, and he did not do too well for spm (struggle with Bs and Cs), the subjects he will most likely be taking for A levels wld be:

1. Maths
2. Economics
3. English Literature

I read from the LSE website that law A levels is not really an advantage. Still, we are weighing the option betwee phylosophy, law and further maths. His strong A subjects for SPM are maths, add mths, english and eng lit.

Any advice?

A level economics is not a traditional subject in the eyes of LSE. Iif he wants to do a BSc in Economics, he should add FM into the combination above.

Traditional subjects are the sciences, and the various mathematics combination for A-level. Accounting certainly isn't, so is business studies. Eng Lit might not be traditional, he has to check on that.

He may want to take up law....

While I understand that the sciences carry alot of weight, is it still worthwhile if the likelihood of an A may not be that great and a B or C is more likely?

Most unis req 3 A levels. If so, then wld a combination of maths, further maths and econ maths be looked upon favorably by the better unis?

What is the advantage of a 4th subject?

Mathematics, Further Mathematics and Economics are axiomatically regarded as "hard" subjects and are favored upon by universities.
However, do check whether do that particular university accepts Further Mathematics along with Mathematics as two separate subjects. If not, you'll be one subject short of the minimum required, rendering your admission chance to total zero.
Therefore, it is advantageous to have a 4th subject as either backup, or to polish your admission resume unofficially. As in unofficially, it is widely known to the UK community that taking above 3 A2 or at most, 3 A2 1 AS, have no effect in admission. Check http://thestudentroom.co.uk, a forum for UK students in which nearly all students are replied that above the required are insane.

However, it is advisable to take 4 subjects as to impress the admission committee, or to open the options to high-tier universities such as the NUS that preferred at least 4 A2. Besides, learn from that Pakistani kid that got 30+ As in his A Levels, getting him into Harvard.

An A is always better than a B or C. I can't say that a B in physics is better than an A in business studies but I can say that an A in physics certainly looks better than an A in media studies or business studies.

Law is also not a traditional subject. So be careful.

When you speak about better universities, I take it that we are talking about UK universities. Some schools do depending on the degree program. As you probably know, LSE specifically prefers applicants with traditional A-level subjects for programs like BSc Economics. They also tell you how they fell about the various combinations for various programs.

Oxford and Cambridge also list the subjects that prefer to see in an application. Outside of the UK, it doesn't matter for the most part.

4th subject means in the event that you are able to score straight A*s, it means that you have the potential to be a very good student academically. If you end up failling or just passing the 4th subject, better just stick with 3 and do well in them. No point taking on 4 unless it's specifically stated, like medicine or some programs in some universities. In which case, you have to score straight 4As anyways.

Great pick of subjects, finally someone who listens

If he is really good at Maths, I would say Further Mathematics (one of the hardest subjects amongst all the Maths/Sciences, but that is relative, as some people do really well in Further but fail Physics).

It's good because there is Econ and Eng Lit in there, so Further won't be "just another Maths subject" for those schools which prefer Further as a fourth.

If Further is too difficult, and he wishes to explore Philosophy, it's fine as long as really good grades are obtained in the first three subjects. But remember that means you do not get the boost of a strong, traditional fourth subject - things are quite competitive nowadays.

Where did you get this? Economics is clearly a traditional subject in the eyes of LSE... at least that is what was published on their website. LSE explicitly acknowledges six specific subjects as being the traditional subjects typical of its students for a number of courses... these are Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Economics, and Further Mathematics. It goes on to state preferred subjects for certain courses can include things like History, Literature, Geography etc. At least do some searching in advance, lest we steer others the wrong way.

Previously, some prerequisites still included Bs, e.g. AAB. That is changing/has changed, and for a relatively good/top university, you'll have a hard time finding anything less than AAA (LSE's entry requirements were actually not that high for some subjects compared to other schools - e.g. before, it had AAB for BSc Accounting and Finance, and only AAA for BSc Actuarial Science - Warwick had A*AAa for MMORSE, and even City had A*AA for BSc Actuarial Science). BSc Economics, BSc Mathematics and Economics, and LLB at LSE were/are each A*AA.

So, while I still believe a B in a strong science is better than an A in Law, you can't afford to get less than an A... although remember that for some of these competitive schools, and even some lesser ones, the Law subject is not so acceptable, even if an A is obtained. Put some effort in and an A is not so difficult... otherwise, pick a subject other than Law.

As I mentioned above, Further Maths should not be a third subject. Unfortunately some A Level boards have overlap between Maths and Further Maths, and certainly they are closely related. For that reason Further Maths needs to be a fourth subject for the "better unis" (which includes LSE), so that there is enough breadth. The lack of Further Maths is not a huge issue but will be a disadvantage for anything remotely quantitative (Economics, Actuarial Science, Statistics) at the better schools, and of course the top unis (like Oxbridge) need it for a Maths degree.

The advantage of a fourth is that you meet the "3.5 A Levels" requirement, and you also have more than three - you sort of stand out. It is not quite clear how far this advantage goes... if your subjects are perfectly/extremely relevant, then three may be sufficient (sometimes this includes Further, which is always taken with/after Maths, and yes this contradicts the above but it is how it works), with no additional benefit from a fourth. Cambridge may make you an offer if you have three, but if you had four, you may receive a "harder" offer since the offer might include the fourth.

don't even thing about NTU or NUS unless you have outstanding extra co-curricular performance. Academic performance ain't enough. Imagine, a couple of my friends with 2A* 2As failed to secure a place.

2A* 2As is nothing compared to the hordes of 4A*, as well as local candidates of Singapore-Cambridge A-Level, 4flat STPM applicants and so. Not to mention that the NUS receive outstanding applicants worldwide, one of that I notice is India.

Yah. Economics, history and eng lit are traditional subjects. My recollection of this memory is 6-7 years ago. So yah, literature, math and economics are acceptable.

I think that FM has to be a fourth subject if the degree program is not related to the natural sciences. The issue of breath would only crop up if one wants to do a degree in the social sciences, the arts or management. FM was my 3rd subject and I got an offer to do physics at Imperial. I am guessing that if my choice was civil or mechanical engineering, I could have secured an offer with that combination too.

That's very discouraging... in fact, while there is a significant emphasis on extra-curriculars, they are not that important, you can still get into NUS without brilliant extra-curriculars (I don't know about NTU)... it's all about relevance and the application itself... sometimes A*A*A*A* with some wrong subjects may not be ideal, while A*AAA in the right ones just might cut it... I believe your friends did not write a very good application. I have heard of instances where three A Levels were insufficient though.

Yes, that is somewhat accurate... a three subject combination with Further would be considered quite acceptable by Imperial for Engineering, whereas the same might be deemed insufficient by Cambridge or LSE for undergrad Economics...

Er if you guys don't mind, I would like to 'tumpang' this thread to ask something:

I'm planning to take up Singapore Digipen's BSGD program (Bachelor of Science in Game Design) directly after A Levels (Sept. Intake for this course) and I'll be going for Disted College Penang's A Levels.

I'm having a bit of trouble regarding the 3 subject combination (this excludes the General Paper).
My first 2 picks would be Physics, Mathematics and either Further Mathematics or Economics. I am unsure of which one to go for (If I go for Econs there's a possibility of the timetable crashing) because I've heard that Further Mathematics is a pretty hard subject.

The question I would like to ask would be is Further Mathematics 'hard' in the sense that it is hard to understand or would it be that you just need more time to understand how the concepts work (along with a ton of practices to do)?

I like Mathematics pretty much and I've been through the Further Mathematics textbook which the lecturer at Disted will be using next year (it looks like an advanced version of Add. Maths to me). I used to be quite bad at Add. Maths during my Form 4 years but I've improved quite a bit ever since getting into Form 5. My weaker parts would be in logarithm and calculus (though I'm positive that if I do more practices I would get the hang of it) so uh, yeah.

My friend did A level a couple years ago, add maths always scored 99.............He gave a try on FM but eventually he gave up, reasons I am not sure........but maybe too difficult?

Ooooh O_o that hard ah...
Think I arrange for an appointment with the Fmaths lecturer first D:

As long as you don't think you're too smart for homework and practices, then Further Maths shouldn't be a problem. To score 90~100 for Add Maths, you don't really need to do that much exercises as compared to Further Maths. Currently doing Edexcel A-levels, covered a few chapters in the Further Maths modules and I find it okay.

They're like an advanced version of add. maths (f4 & f5) right o_O? Idk lol i was flipping through the fmaths textbook then I noticed that it was more or less like that. Will your lecturer give you a lot of practices to do? o_o

Maths itself is like an advanced version of add maths, especially the A2 parts. My lecturer basically told us to do most of the exercises in the textbook, then after finishing the syllabus we would do other papers like past year papers. It depends though, my lecturer was awesome ... not sure whether would I understand without his guidance.

Ooooh I see thanks ! Will consider taking up fmaths cause I have no interest in chem lol <.<

I have no interests in sciences >_> maybe it's just because I'm lazy