They signed the approval form before we can start the work. I felt guilty as I know what it like to be next to a major renovation.
It happened to me before...damn angry..always awaken by the drill at 8 a.m.

So I drop in to say hello, check that they are not too angry...listen to any complaints..
They are tolerating it so I am grateful. You reminded me, I should bring some chocolates to their children.

Hi jojozep, how was your negotiation with your contractors? Did you have an itemised bill of quantities (bq) listing all the quantities and the rates or did you just agree on what you wanted your house to be like with just a lump quotation? Any formal contract need to be signed?

I'm new to this. Would appreciate if you can share with me how is the negotiation procedure before reaching an agreement and the contractor starts work. Thank you

It is interesting -what you asked. I noticed that most contractors are very casual,that is they come in with slippers and walk around, pretending to be interested while checking you out. Most of them wear/dress poorly and have disgusting attitudes.Some of them really pisses me off. You begin to wonder how this industry works.

2 things to remember about the approach before we start - first you are the boss, second - you are the boss.
Never let them sense any fear, they are like hyenas, they will take advantage of that fear.

Firstly, capture and communicate the requirements.

ok, most of these guys I talked to, did not have a formal education..most of them learned the trade the street-way. there is almost no technique to gather your requirements. First you will show him the site and go blah-blah-blah..I want this wall knock and extend this wall to there...and he will follow you like a puppy and nod his head.
After 40 minutes, he would have understood 5% of what you said. Tomorrow, he will remember 1% of what you said.

So I think I talked to about 8-10 companies, some cannot tie their own shoe laces, some behave like you are the one begging them,some are only interested in big margin projects. It is OK because the more you talk to them, the more you learn, be a good listener. Write notes if possible..ask questions since they are the experts,be a pig not the tiger.

Ok, before you call them in for an appointment, prepare this things:
1)simple A4 plan- color the extensions red, the new windows,new doors. SCOPE the new extensions in RED so that it is very clear to these contractors, give them a copy of it to take away. If possible, you can draw in the furniture in orange color.

2) Have a high level scope of work - like build new maid room, build new guest room, extend dining room...change all living room floor to tiles. Then ask them to give you a good quote within a few days. Let say 4-5 days..
If they miss this date - you should know his work attitude towards you.

After they have given you a quote, some will give you more details, some will give you less details. You already can see their approach and know the size of their companies. Some will not bother to even submit.

Short list to about 4-5,as you now want to go into the details:
Using the high level scope, break them into details. For example, build a new guest room involves breaking the window and the wall to ceiling height and extend the room to the garden as detailed in the architect plan. Rip the carpet out and prepare the new floor for 2x2 feet tiling. Build the new sliding door frame for a 2 frame aluminum powder coated door leading to the garden. New coat of paint,with primer....etc..
(If you miss anything, be prepared to pay...so this must be stated clearly here,otherwise, don't expect it to be free).

Ok, those you have short-listed, make appointments with them and tell them that they have been shortlisted,go thru these detailed requirements and ask them to confirm that they understood these requirements. If possible, get them to put their initials. Ask them to resubmit their quotations if they have missed anything. Also ask them to submit with as much details as possible, including grade of cement, and as much details as possible. Tell them they will be responsible for what is submitted and can be used legally.

After the second submission of detailed quotations, is the negotiations. You probably will have disqualified further due to the price. During this time, you need to be talking to only about 2-3 contractors as it is about price. The grade, scope, materials should be similiar and they have convinced you that they are capable of delivering the work. Ask to visit their previous work...any references..

Ok, I need to highlight that if you use a contract, there will be clauses that the contractor will not agree, or if he agree, he will charge extra 20% for it. For example, all workers must be insured, he will only pass the cost to you.

Yes, as much detailed quotation as possible. You can also tell from this exercise how well the contractor can work with you. fyi, I ended up
1)not using the contract - as this would have increased the price another 20%
2)went for lump sum by phases - with reference to the detailed scope of work so that contractors is responsible for site and people and security
3)only agreed the wetworks to the contractor, they are required to quote competively for tiling, plaster ceiling,kitchen cabinets in phases...so we know the price is good price...the quality is monitored using progress payment.

In the end, a few things of great importance to a good delivery and a happy relationship.

1)Cash flow...I always pay on time but I will make a site visit to count the materials...and the people onsite..checking on the progress almost everyday.

2)Both owner and contractor must work closely. The owner must make decisions fast after a discussion with contractor.

3)At anytime, the progress payment must be enough for the contractor and the owner help their cashflow by not delaying unnecessary..or increase their risks of collecting money. The trust both ways is important.

A bill of quatities will be useful. A contract can add costs. End of the day, if you squeeze the contractor too hard, no one wins. 2 things I think is crucial to get it RIGHT.
1) The progress payment milestones - you get this right for yourself and the contractor, it will be win-win.
2) The chemistry and personal styles of the owner and contractor.

Remember, it is a piece of paper..and if it do end up in court, nobody wins. Sometimes, small things crops up and if there is a good relationship, the contractor do not mind doing it free of charge as part of the service factor. Similiarly, I will not hesitate to take the contractor out for a lunch or a cup of coffee during discussion.
But end of the day, remember it is your house and you are the boss of the renovation.

This post has been edited by jojozep: Feb 18 2011, 03:53 AM

good info.

more pics..



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Ok, some pictures of the architect plans - this is submitted and approved. But you can see that the extensions are colored in RED.
I spoke to a few architects before I spoke to him. He suits me as I had no idea what I wanted as a beginner, and I kept changing his drawings. He did not get angry. He had them in A4 first before we finalised and he drew the final one for submission.
Basically, he will try to make sure it is based on input of your design as well. Not all architects can do this...some insist their designs only.




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nice one...u seems to have a lot of knowledge in building construction

really? I just learn from others, the forums..and Internet..
I am a certified project manager in I.T systems implementation.. also a keen DIY person..so I have done some tiling, cementing,wiring,plumbing...as a hobby only.
Maybe time to change my job.

For most major renovations, be it for investment or self-stay, if you modify structural changes, your architect should also submit the 'engineering drawings' together with the new layout plan to the city council.

My engineering drawings cost about rm600 and part of the quotation from my architect. In here, the J12, J14..are the recommended size of the steel bars diameters to be used. This make that it is structurally sound.

There are 2 Engineering documents for mine..
-one called the Engineering Plan, the other is Engineering Drawings..I snap some pics with my phone and posted some parts of it so u will have an idea what you paying for...





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Wow.. RC car porch for RM 12k is consider acceptable price in the market now...
I heard that some will charge up to 20k....

Totally agreed--
ok, I took some pics just now....maybe spoken too early...look unfinished..
let him finish first...maybe RC means really cheap roof? ..then how???





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The upstairs master bedroom extension-

Break a big wall- break the roof structure(slanted) to add a floor slab(RC) for extra 15 feetX10 feet extension.
This extension will include a 5 feet x10 feet balcony overseeing the front garden.

This post has been edited by jojozep: Feb 21 2011, 02:11 AM


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How much the structure work cost? What is the size of your land area?

Nice post...good job~

fooysh, love the tearing down of walls, lol~

Structure work is 95K - structural in my case included hacking all the floors(done), parquet(done), bathroom tile. and make them ready for tiling or laminating. Since they are hacking walls, same workers type just hack the floor and bathroom as well. Contractor shared with me that if the workers are free, he will ask them to hack the tiles since he pay them by the day...and they are sitting there doing nothing.

They really have a field day hacking my place..within 3 days..the place is unrecognisable.. They say it is easier that way.

Land area is 3799, I left 10 feet on the side(for grass) and 5 feet at the back for grass.

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Added on February 22, 2011, 1:13 amI think some people actually enjoy this..demolition. Anyway, once the walls come down, it is so easy to visualise the space you got.

They have a technique...they always start from the bottom of the wall..

This post has been edited by jojozep: Feb 22 2011, 01:13 AM

OK,
Earlier, I posted pictures of the upcoming

1)new RC car porch roof,
2)new 2nd floor extension of the master BR, below will be extended living room.

Now posted below, you can see the columns for the ground floor extensions.
These columns will have be bricked to become walls and windows. You can see the boundary of the new extensions. They are boundaries for new kitchen, new laundry, new maid room all facing back garden and facing the side garden are the extensions for new guest room, new computer room, new dining room. The bricks are not up yet. Contractor says bricking can be done in 2 days and quite fast..

The back garden now also has a 6 feet brick wall - to prevent neighbour kitchens looking into each other, allowing some privacy..





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=) nice

This post has been edited by UNICON: Feb 22 2011, 04:26 AM

+1 for this thread. Love the makeovers.

looking forward for the result.

i tot RC = remote control car porch

lol-ed