I've just got myself Europa Universalis III series recently & it struck me that there are tons of other games out there that belonged to the same genre. Being a RTS gamer all this while, I have always been under the impression that this kind of games mainly suits those who prefer to take their own sweet time & keep the stress level to the minimum... until I check out Europa Universalis III.

I guess the main differences of these games compared to RTS are their delicate micro-management where you'll have to take every single small details into account, failing which will turn the tide against you before you can even say TSUNAMI! In the past, I played the Chinese language Romance of 3 Kingdoms game (with language modifications) where you're on a mission to unify the whole China. It was kind of similar but not as hard & complex.

Anyway, since I'm still new in this particular genre, I would like to gather some opinions out there on what are nice & what to avoid. As far as I know, these are the list of games that I can think of now.

- King Arthur - The Role-playing Wargame (new)
- Civilization 5 (series)
- Europa Universalis III (series)
- Total War: Shogun 2 (series)
- Hearts of Iron III (series)
- Victoria II (series)

I'm kind of interested with King Arthur since it's new & not by Paradox Interactive. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing with Paradox Interactive's games but they're kind of monopolizing the genre with 3 out of the 6 games I listed above published by them.

This post has been edited by talexeh: Dec 8 2010, 11:39 PM

These are what people call grand strategy games. Crusader Kings 2 coming 2012. You can check out EU Rome Gold. Despite some people complaining that Paradox releases initially buggy games, they are still the best at these type of games. Sadly... Avoid Making History 2 at all costs.

i waitin long wait shogun total war 2...
fuuuuuuuuuuu

There are some major differences though between some of the games you named, so much it's hard to compare them in my opinion.

Civ, King Arthur and Total War are turn based.

HoI3, EU3 and Victory are not turn based but actually "active pause real time", there is no turn but you can choose the speed the time goes until you can pause it and give all orders you want while paused.

Also I would not really put games like HoI3 and EU3 in the same category as Arthur or Shogun, they simply are too different. In HoI3 you don't see "real battles", you just simply move icons on the map, tune sliders around and take some overall strategic decisions. In Arthur or Shogun you move armies and then play battles in real time.

To be honest I would put Paradox games like HoI3, EU3 (and all their "descendants") in their very own category as I have not found games very similar to them.

Personally I play King Arthur and while it has some very good points I found the game to be badly balanced, archers are using M16 instead of bows as if you stack a few units of them enemies units simply vanish and overall in the campaign I found it is very easy to go off the track the developers wanted you to go and get struck in an un-winnable (or at least madly hard) stage, like if you don't go where the game tell you to and trigger some strong enemies early on etc.

If you want something similar to Arthur I would actually suggest Lionheart King's Crusade which is pretty similar and new.... and produced by Paradox
It has turn-based gameplay pretty much like Arthur but no cities to manage, just the battles with some good decisions in-between them and before them, army management etc.

I played Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI too on PC, bit old now (but it's the last of the series on PC I think), not bad as well and another game line that is pretty much unique in its gameplay, and it's in English.

Honestly it's hard to say what is bad on your list, there are only good games in there, Arthur would be for me the "weakest" if I had to choose but it's my own personal impression. Shogun2 is not out yet and I have been disapointed by Empire Total War so much I skipped Napoleon (the latest of the series so far). But I am still playing Medieval Total War 2 for some of it's mods even today

Edit coz you guys type fast: yes, Paradox games release bugged but they do end up fixing them (even though I still wish Semper Fi was added for free in HoI3...) and they do make awesome game, my very first HoI2 game was an eye opener for me (Or "what the fu** am I supposed to do here?!")

Edit2 coz I didnt understood you wanted suggestions: it would really depends on exactly which type you like, some people like Total War/Arthur type while others prefer Eu3/HoI3 type. It's like people prefering CS or Unreal Tournament, even though both are fps they still play quite differently.

For Total War style I would recommend Lionheart King's Crusade as I said or wait for Shogun2, Civ5 is an amazing game but it's also pretty unique in its genre. HoI3 is a very deep game too, EU3 I have not had the time to really spend on it yet but the bit I read made me feel it was "srs business". Otherwise in other more futuristic games there is AI Wars which is highly recommended by few people on this forum (I love this game and I know frags highly recommend it too) and it keeps getting updated by the creator.

This post has been edited by Gormaz: Dec 8 2010, 11:51 PM

Ahh... thanks to you, I learned something new today. Grand Strategy Wargame, eh? I guess StarCraft 2's inter-galactic pew-pew-pew'ing isn't grand enough.

Joke aside, do you think that the Civilization series doesn't fit into this genre?

I've renamed the thread title as well.

Have you tried any other grand strategy wargames aside from the Total War series?

When you move thousands of ships around in AI War, yes, Starcraft II pew-pew isn't as grand as all.

There are some other REALLY srs bisnes Grand strategy games out there too. It's more towards RISK or board games genre. Mind you, eye candy is almost ziltch but some hardcore gonards swear by it, i mean don't expect CIV5 graphics.

Now those, i call them spreadsheet gamers. . Minute details galore. I couldn't be bothered about the title.. but if you search around wargames boards. you'll see.

These are some screenies




Here if you are interested, it could also be categorised as war sim i guess. i'm by no means anywhere near capable of "playing" these. But i really like the AARs some of them came out with. It like a story heh.

THIS is for Gormaz. New one from matrix



This post has been edited by ashx: Dec 9 2010, 01:09 AM

Paradox games = serious business

very complex....

May i suggest Galactic Civilizations 2 and Sword of the Stars (both are turned-based)?
I bought the former during a sale but couldnt really get into it.

SotS on the other hand is a lot of fun. They streamlined the economy so all you needed was to focus on research and expansion. The battles are real time and how you maneuvered your ships in battle really matter. Some ships have more forward firing weapons, whereas some have more side weapons making strafing maneuvers really effective. It's sort of like Total War in space, thought that's an oversimplification.

This post has been edited by chiakm: Dec 9 2010, 01:26 AM

dont forget about Sins of Solar Empire and Galactic Civilization series.

Okay let me explain this term grand strategy properly. It's not a genre like you guys know. It's just a category for strategy games. It doesn't mater if it's turn based, real time or a 4X game. It's also not something exclusive to video games and can apply to board games(most of this are oft used wargame terms).

Strategy game primer...

There are three levels of strategy games

1)Tactical level games/wargames


The classic wargame is Advanced Squad Leader(which is really a system). These games are about specific scenarios. Much smaller maps. All about tactics and movement. In PC Games you have the Panzer general games or heck even Men of War(RTS). Half of X-COM is this.

2) Operational level games/wargames


Obviously much bigger maps. Here you are commanding armies on a much larger geography. Things like supply lines become a lot more important than tactical level games. A lot of wargames are operational level games where you play the general. I would say there is hardly any pc game based on operational level unless you look at stuff like Rise of Nations or something that has elements of grand strategy in them(a lot of PC games are hybrids and it's hard to find a pure operational level game). A lot of wargame conversions though. Perhaps the latest ubisoft RTS RUSE falls into this category. Also I would put the ancient pc strategy game, hegemony: Philip of Macedon into this category as well. The other half of X-COM is an operational level game.

3) Grand strategy


Grand strategy is when you control a government. You are not just dealing your troops or a military campaign but also things like government policy. You are governing a nation/faction. A lot of PC strategy games(like the ones you have pointed out) fall into this category with some weird hybrids. Civilisation games also fall into this category.

Of course Total War you have the grand strategy and tactical level. And Hearts of Iron is a weird series. It's very operational level yet has a lot of grand strategy aspects to it, which still makes it, in my book, a grand strategy game.

---

Added on December 9, 2010, 3:22 amPS : It also doesn't always have to be a wargame. Heck I suppose Simcity and city building games are operational level strategy games. You can test this out. All strategy games will fit into these 3 categories or have a mix of them.

This post has been edited by frags: Dec 9 2010, 03:23 AM

I am just starting on Sword of the Stars too, it sounds pretty interesting as well in the genre yar, got it on sales recently on Impulse when it was very cheap.
I also got Galactic Civ2 from Impulse a while back (actually on Impulse I have Sins too, somehow most of my 4X games are from there...) but never managed to get into it somehow

@ashx: yar, I follow a bit this kind of game too through some specialists websites, it's a niche type inside the what I call "complex strategic games" type which is already a small niche inside the strategic game.
I played a few of them but honestly they require a bit too much investment to really get into each systems so the last time I really played this kind was during uni and it was Steel Panthers and "Bataille des Ardennes"

@frags: true that's the meaning of the GSG term but (as you said) many games mix things from multiple levels (Total War are good example) so it's not really cut and dry anymore
There are operational level PC games in pure wargames style that recreates only one battle or successions of battles in a said zone. They do sometimes add a thin layer of strategic decisions but it's usually very limited since the time span in this kind of games is few days, weeks or months at most

http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-SOTSCC/sword-...lete-collection

is sword of the stars worth to buy? i hear it is same like Homeworld (my fav game), so it must be good,right?

Interface quite hard to get used to.

Steep learning curve.

Sequel coming soon.

Quite worth your money at USD6.99 because the game comes with two expansions.

Paradox Interactive announces King Arthur: Fallen Champion


Source: Strategy Informer

Paradox update their schedule, Hearts of Iron III add-on next up





Source: Strategy Informer

Hearts of Iron III: For the Motherland 3.03 patch




Source: Strategy Informer

Awesome. This is what I needed/ Experienced some crashes which...yes happened from the new theatre window.

King aurthur is like total war with super power u know, the adventure part is text based (quite boring i must say).

1-day big sale on King Arthur series in Steam:

King Arthur Collection | -85% | $4.50
King Arthur: The Role-playing Wargame | -85% | $3.00
King Arthur: Knights and Vassals | -85% | $0.30
King Arthur: Legendary Artifacts | -85% | $0.30
King Arthur: The Druids | -85% | $1.50
King Arthur: The Saxons | -85% | $1.50