Note that This thread is not directed to or against any religion and should therefore raise no sensitivity issue. Please post with consideration of others feeling if you know that there are some element in the content of your post might raise an "Issue" . We are no scholars but I believe we are not stupid people either to understand that creating a racial/religious tension is not allowed.


Okay thread starts then.

I would like to know fellow forumers opinion and knowledge in both mentioned group , the atheist and the theist, Being the free thinker and the God's follower.

I myself is a shamanist, in which I do have something to believe, but that something is neither god nor prophet. I believe in the elements of nature and all that is around me has a spirit.

Given if the world now have managed to preserved the existence of the anceint Egyptian belief, the greeks, the nords , or just a philosophical life, which would you prefer to be absorbed in if you are given a choice to choose? And what are your thoughts about these ancient religions ? Note that you can also mention about present day existing religions.

Hope we can have a healthy discussion and I can learn more

i believe there are similar threads to this, check RWI (real world issues). kind of a "war" going on there, lol.

yeah i saw, the religion thread. However I dont plan to take the same path as the TS there though lol. I'd love to see a more philosophical and intellectual style discussion here, thats why i used a more "Philosophical" term, Atheism and Theism lol.

I have no interest as to why people are fighting over religions, well I know the fact that humans been fighting for thousands of years about religion, i dont see that they will stop anytime soon but the word religion also brought many beauty in terms of philosophical and mythological form.

I really hope we can have a good and healthy discussion to share knowledges ^^

so, whats your angle of discussion then?

these discussion usually degenerate to more or less "i'm right, you are wrong" type of argument

if ancient religion were preserved now, i'd go for the sex goddess religion Kali and be a priestess there.

This is not a thread where we compare a religion with another religion, but rather we look at the ancient religion and if we were given a chance to choose, which one will be choose? and why ? and our pov on that religion.

LOL shamanism... can you describe what you believe?

This post has been edited by soul2soul: Sep 8 2010, 09:42 AM

There are many types of shamanist belief in this world, mine in particular is of the Altay Shamanist. Altay relates to a clan of people who resides at the Mountain Altay, who then migrated to other parts of the world due to their nomadic style of living.

We believe that our mother gave birth to us, but it is the nature that made us who we are. Every food we eat, and every water we drink were courtesy of Mother Nature. The elements of nature, wind,water,fire,earth and wood are of course our 5 our main pillar of strength , we believe that everything has a spirit residing in it. Respect the nature and acknowledge its superiority over human and it will guide you along your journey in life, Remember where you come from so that you will always have a home. These are words instilled to us since young.

There are 2 types of energy,

Sain - Positive flow
Uyain - Negative flow

Sain comes usually after a heavy rain, where land will benefit most. After a rain, plants usually grow and soils become more fertile. When life comes to live, it is a good sign of a new good begining and we consider that a hint from Her ( Nature ) that something good will come our way.

Uyain is usually considered as the wrath of mother nature, any nature caused disaster is a sign of of disapproval from Her, that some things cannot be tolerated anymore.

Humans always think that they own everything on this surface of earth and disregard a power more mighty and noble than them which is the power of a creator, the nature itself.We often disrespect anything that comes in our way and take it by force if we want it. We shamanist are not environmentalist, we have been here longer than them and longer than any other religion ever existed. We dont protect nature , we are in no right and position to do so. She is our almighty and we believe that she has the power to defend herself. Instead, we respect her like no one else do.

Nobody can prove the existance of God. As long as you do good in life and not hurt others, nothing wrong by being atheist. Those who believe in God pray everyday, go to place of worship and everythin, but nothing changed for them. Even buddhism is atheism right? Since buddhist is a way of life and not a religion that believe in god

Buddhism in my opinion is a form of atheism , due to the reason that people believe it as an ideology. But slowly it became a religion when people believed in more detail values like Nirvana, and Rebirth. I think buddhism is quite borderline though between a religion and a spiritual belief.

Any buddhist wanna share?

It's a form of atheism if we define Atheism as a belief in a Creator God because buddhists don't believe in that.

But it's not totally atheistic because buddhists believe in higher beings other than humans in another planes of existence (dimensions).

However, these beings have no bearing on us humans , so they are quite irrelevant in personal pursuit of happiness. So it's quite an atheist religion if you ask me.

Yes thats what i mean!!

As for TS discussion, believing in spirits is part of chinese believe. Not really related to religion or anything. Personally i dont know whether i believe in spirits or not but i do respect them believe. I have never encountered any before but when i go to some places i still feel fear.

Usually we fear what we dont know and dont understand. I think its part of the human mind that injects fear to ourselves

All religion are philosophy since non of them can be proven or disapproved.

Those that did not survive up to date such as Egytian or Greek mythology is due to the reason it won't survive in this modern day scientific world.

Even your shamanism philosophy...looks more like an elegant way of describing something we all know. Rain bring good and natural disaster bring bad. Just package it with different terms. Still, it is good to be able to believe in something like this because it make you appreciate the nature and mother earth. This is also a form of Atheism because you do not believe in god as the creationist.

yeah shamanism can be considered as atheistic as well, usually shamanist have something that they hold more precious than others. In my case, our sacred symbol is our Holy Mountain Altay. Like you said, the reason why the egyptian and greek mythology did not survive till today to be worshiped still is because of the non fitting environment in the modern society. Teachings that emphasizes an individual's superiority tend to vanish quickly when it comes to modern day world.

I think all religions are beautiful in their own way for they all advocated well being and what is good. Unless of course if it is being used for personal gain or to fulfill a selfish need. Waging war on others in the name of God is clearly an act of manipulation of its devotees in order to raise an army of unshaken and loyalty assured soldiers.

I am a big fan of the greek mythology, they have every way possible to make their gods and deitys look beautiful. The story of how Zeus was born and came into power itself is a very mesmerizing and inspiring story.

But the bigger question is, What is religion in everyone's view ? Can one survive without religion ? and what would have become of this world today if there weren't not any religion at all to start with ? Will philosophy instead replace it ?

Religion in everyones view is believe is god. Nobody will die without religion but i think its important as a guide for people to live. Religion teaches moral values and what we should do and should not. Without it, people will act however they like and there will be more chaos. As for me, I grow up in a religion family but after reaching a certain age i dont really believe in it anymore. But then its still important because i still keep the values being thought even though my faith is lacking.

to me religion is like medicine
some people need different medicine
while some dont need it at all

hehehe very interesting replies, short, simple and yet understandable. I hope to see more coming ^^

Some people told me that , Human cannot afford to not believe in something. Or otherwise life would be outcoursed. Believing in god is a form of leaning towards something that can provide hope and guidance, because if one realised that there is no one above us that can help us, then situation may be chaotic. We need something to believe in so that we can enforce ourselves with confidence and hope. How true is that LYN Forumers?

just as i said earlier, some people need it but some people dont

but i would say the majority of the world needs it

Actually why limit to atheism and theism ? there are people in the world that cannot be bothered with either one of this.

Yes thats me. Atheist wont bother about this things.

i like the way you explained shamanism
rain, earth, sunshine and disaster
you put it beautifully
and i think most of us is able understand and able to observe this without much explanation

i think you are still searching your god
as everyone will have to find their own god one way or another
some find it thru a religion, some by being a scientist, some find it thru books
the god i meant is source of everthing, the root

mind to share some more of your shamanism teaching

"I greet upon
Wind as my sister ,
Wood as my brother,
Earth as my father,
Water as my mother and
Fire as my ancestors. "

This is a direct translate from a shamanist opening chant, whenever we perform a ritual. Wind as my sister refers to the gentle and tenderness of those of a sister that touches us during the warm and hot weather, however Wind also consist of Lighting, presence of lighting would signify that the spirit of the wind is not at ease. Wood as my brother, refers to the common surrounding in the jungle when hunters go for hunting surrounded by woods, and wood also provide us with fire, which is another essential of living. Therefore here referring to the care and protection of a brother always looking after you in your journey.

Earth as my father here refers to what that we have now that is on the ground, is provided to us like a father bringing food home. Water as my mother refers to the most powerful force of all nature element, the water. Not even wood can survive without water. Without water, ground will not be appreciated as much as it is now anymore and Wind will not be seen as beautiful as it is today. Water gave wood life, earth its reason to exist and to wind, beauty. Fire in contrast of water, is mentioned as reference to Ancestors. I believe most of you have seen that most shamanist and paganist rituals are done around a fire source or campfire. This is the reason why, because Fire are often used as a medium of communication with the spirits of our ancestors. If you have knowledge in ancient funerals, you would noticed that most shamanist arranged funerals by cremation or putting the body onto a made raft and send it to the sea.

Those who cremated the bodies hope that the spirit will join their ancestors and will continue blessing them.
Those who released the body to the sea hoped that the soul will be received and returned to Mother Nature.

Above are the basic knowledge I am sharing as to what shamanism is. I will also share another unformal ritual that we do practice when we shamanist are at the beach. I would take a handful of sand and rub it around my neck and chest. Those little bit of sand left on my hand will then be scattered back to the beach and I'd head down slowly to the water, lie down and let the wave wash the sand on my body away. This is to cleanse myself ( Like in some houses people would put a doormat at the main door, people are expected to clear of the sands and dust off their feet before entering the house ). By doing that, I have also declared to Her that I know her and I am here with respect and humble before Her great superiority.

I hope you guys enjoyed reading.

Religion does not mean a god is compulsory.
For example, confusios is a religion without god but teaching.

Also, with or without religion it still create war and chaotic as u can see in reality.
Atheists do have ppl that screw up their life while there are also those who dont, same goes to theists.
While atheists and theists have their own war.
So i dont see how chaotic and peace dont come and go between this two.

Beliveing that there is something high above us can make us feel more comfortable as human is usually weak.
To save time, u can just look it the world now, find out how many u meet out there really require a believe from the 'upper head' in order to live through their life peacefully and with much relief.
And i believe what u said is only for most of the believers and some of the non-believers.
Even believing there is no one above us like me and many ppl out thr do, ppl not neccessary will feel helpness and hopeless when live through our day.

U can also think ppl who mostly believe in themself gain confidence and hope all by themself.
For whatever helpness or desperate situation occur, ppl often understand that this is cause by unfortunate and/or own doing,
and it is not neccessary to pray and wish for god's helping hand to deal with those situations.

It is really weird as we can see now, there are many people who depends on religion heavily in order to carry out their personal life well. EG. Going to church, temple, mosque to seek for forgiveness and prayers, Does acknowledging that something somehow do exist in which we cannot see, touch nor feel but yet to admit that He or She is great, really helps ?

If so, Wouldn't believing in god then considered as an act of self hypnotism? Why need a belief that can make us feel good and do what is right when we already know what is right and wrong ?

In most ancient religion, God is a symbol of protection and devotees turn to god to seek and hope for protection. Action and values instead were determined by the government and philosophers. EG. Egyptian has no Religious Values as to how the society should live their lives. Egyptian gods are mainly "Looking after" its subjects and giving protection and strength. Even the greeks, the nords, and many others did not tell its subject how to live their life. Only the religions that comes after that and lasted till today advocated teachings and values. Why is that ?

Like I said, egyptian and greek kind of religion cannot survive in today's world due to it's "primitive" method of teachings. It does not "control" the society like all the top religion we currently have.

By control, I mean...things like telling you not to kill or rape or eat certain things..it is all social control. With such control, they can make sure people devote themselves into believing religion.

These religion went through years and years of refinement. Whether it is for personal gain or not, it has transformed into something that work for today.

It is also the aspect of social control that I cannot stand about religion. They say you cannot do this and that. So people just follow for fear of going to hell and other things they use to make your scared and follow the rules. What I see about doing right or wrong is when you have the choice of doing it or not. You should be aware of doing something being correct or wrong in the sense of society and morality. Why is it wrong and so on. Because by willing yourself to do something right, you are taking charge of your own life. You will become more self aware of right or wrong things in life. Some of those who follow religion DOs and DON'Ts will follow blindly and then when something else that is wrong but not defined in religion, they do it because religion or law did not say no. And they can get away with it. Their reference is only religion or law. Not self motivated right or wrong or morality.

This post has been edited by abubin: Sep 9 2010, 11:54 AM

To zozi
i enjoy reading your post.
i think shamanism is based on observation which i think is a good thing

To abubin
i dunno what to say about the religion today,
the more you say you can't do this, the more the people will do it.
just look at the daily news - especially in sexual part.

interesting part about norse religion are their god are predicted to lose the final battle. and most of them will die.

Because even there are fact showing what is right and wrong in this world,
we can still see ppl commit wrongful act and crimes.
Beside, believing in god also believe we will be pay for ur good and bad deed, going to heaven or hell and blabla.
With such idea, it force ppl to do more good deed and avoid any bad deed at all.
While of coz, this is totally for those who truly believe it.

erm might be frank but I,
have quite different kind, or 'deviated' religion,
or should I say, trust my own version of God?

I'm a chinese and a Buddhist.
however I see Buddhism as a philosophy and ways of life, and also rules of nature.
I myself, study science, and trust Science and logic to full extent,
that i distrust any occurrence or teachings in any religion that defies it.

Stephen Hawking had recently claimed that God has no place in the creation of this universe, which many should have already realized.
I understand his claim and of course support him.
to many it seemed frank that as is Hawking is trying to erase the idea of God from everyone, and wanted human to trust just physical laws that governs the universe.

However I still trust in God.
but it has long been a different kind of God.
unlike the one [that human worships, pray for His mercy and blessing, possess divine power, creator of this world and human, represents the highest power in the universe, is somewhat figurative, just like any typical God or goddess such as those in chinese religion, or egyptian God, Shindo God, rain God and etc.] I would not call those believing 'crap' of untrue or of no significance because I understand every human has the right to practice their believing and religion.

the idea of God, or religion, perhaps was developed by human themselves as a way of explaining and interact with the surroundings, or to seek explanation to certain occurrence.
but when science advanced, we see people nowadays are turning into atheist.
perhaps Science is a new kind of religion, the one we believe right now.
mankind had developed the idea of God as something to rely and hope for while facing desperation, or fantasize for some miracle.

i trust different kind of God,
and I'd redefined the phrase 'God'.
to me, It has no figure,
has no human characteristic or mind,
he is, law of Physics that governs our physical world.
the power that somewhat determined and wrote the law of sciences and maths, and logic.
He is the Nature.
and God is just an alternate name for the combination of the ideologies that is so success that entire mankind believes them, that we call science, maths and logic.(and many other things such as human philosophy etc.)
it's my religion.

hope I did not offended anyone, I was just expressing my ideology without the intention to cause any discomfort or offense.
=)

Buddhism is a religion because there are supoernatural elements that require your blind faith.
How would you then called yourself as a buddhist? In buddhism there is the universal law of karma that leads to endless rebirth in different realms of existences. The god you seem to decribe is a pantheist god?

oops my bad then, I shd have said 'I was', cuz these ideas weren't developed in me until recent years

what is a pantheist god by the way?
i don't know much bout these, perhaps i don't know much about buddhism though XD

@Kengz , Meaning of Pantheist


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The two quoted post above reminded me of something that I was thinking about some years ago. In many ancient religions, statues and carving of Gods were available and this gave an image for the people to know and remember how their Gods look like. Often Myths of the gods were shared to boost support and devotion to their gods. Many ancient religions shared the same features in terms of how the Gods were portrayed to the people, and how the Myths influences their daily lives. However, newer religions like Christian, Judaism , and even Islam completely rejected that God has an Image. and rather they provided another source of inspiration for the devotees to keep in their heart. These were nonetheless, Images of Jesus the Messiah, the Holy Bible , the holy book of Torah, the Quran and some others.The word God itself have gone through a new reform when physical statues were replaced with mental faith. Word paganism was created to refer to Ancient religions, and from there onwards we could see how these new religions were fighting among each other in order to subdue one another.


Personally, I believe religion is something that Humanity came out with in order to maintain stability and order in the society. It could have been made out by a group of influential philosopher , think tanker, or even religious persons. Bare in mind that, in the older days, Religion could win an empire a war better than the government. The Romans whom were pagans themselves before, became enthusiast christians and even ransacked Temples of other religions that were considered as Pagans. The reason I am believing in so is because of the much similarity of Islam and Christianity. Islamic scholars claimed that Islam existed long before any other religion did, ever since the noble birth of the first human, Adam and Eve. But, the story of Adam and Eve was already told in the Torah and the Genesis. Could they be talking about 3 different Adams and Eves ? Judging from the birth of Christianity, which geographically at the same place where Judaism was hosted, Could it be that Christian took teachings and values from the earlier teachings of another religion, refine it, and form their own religion ? Could the same thing have happened almost 600 years later when Islam was born ? Does the word religion now still have the same meaning as 3000 years ago than 2000 years ago ?

These 3 religions, Judaism, Christian and Islam have much similarity to each other than differences. There are no other religions that ever existed in the world shared so many common points and also left so many rooms of arguments in terms of their origins. As much as these 3 tried desperately to show that they are different from one another, none of these side could ever provide a good explanation on their origins. The only found solution for them was to eliminate each other so that they can claim the "copyright" of the history for themself.

The effect of these new religions have led to generations in this millennium to create an image of god in their own mind. People now are taught that, "There is only one god, although there are many different religions" , compared to the Ancient times when God can also be God(s). Ancient year china, where taoism plays a crucial part in securing faith into a religion, Deities were also considered as Gods, only as years gone by, God came into existence in the culture and thus Deities are just Deities, they are just like Angel Gabriel in Christian. Many more educated persons in the world who would probably share my opinion have crossed the line and became an Atheist instead. People now labelled people last time as Pagans and that they do not know how to respect God. But Look at humans now, we are manipulating the word God and its teaching to our own benefit more than those people in the ancient years did. Religion is now a huge complex system to bind people together to believe in what we should be believing in this age of time, but the belief could alter as time moves on. Could it be because of this that No static image of God was ever allowed? If so then wouldn't religion be a huge false consciousness of humanity ?

There are however a few religions that are like the Ancient religions. Buddhism for example, Whats the difference between Buddhism and Egyptian Religion ? They both have underworld, they both have values to be pass on to devotees, they both have temples and they both have a certain custom. While we cannot expect every religion to be spreading the same thing, we must accept differences in culture and norms in the religion. In Buddhism, we have statues and paintings of Buddha, the Buddha script, the Buddha teachings, Buddhist monk. Well these are the things that Ancient religions have as well, but the bigger question now is. Why is Buddhism considered as an "Ideology" by many people and not as a Religion ? And if Ancient religions were labelled as Cults and Pagans, then how did Buddhism and Hinduism survived till date ? Could it be because the newer religions like Christian and Islam did not manage to spread through the Eastern Hemisphere and establish itself as a dependent school of thought? Ancient egyptian and greek religions are still labelled as Religions today, where as Buddhism as labelled as an Ideology. So where does this put Taoism and Confucianism ?

Sorry for my long post.

This post has been edited by Zozi: Sep 11 2010, 10:27 AM

zozi always type an essay

omg i need to scroll out for it to fit my screen

PhD school wut

phd school also u can use your genius brain to summarize it so it doesnt become an essay. Its about intelligent discussion not lengthy discussion

Unfortunately I am not that much of a genius, and thats the best I could do to summarize the relation between Philosophy, Ideology and Religion from since before Christianity to modern day lol. paiseh

u can type an excellent essay. I think u r more geniuser than most ppl here include me

haha thank you for the compliment , I think there are many other smart people here and I am here really keen to learn. Learning is my passion, specially history, philosophy, mythology, humanity, politics and warfare. Those are my strong topics, but they are just some basic based knowledge topics though ^^

I think it is really fitting and refreshing to see people mentioning that there are masses who might or might not have a specific religion to adopt a certain belief of a being or force that exist beyond the plane of this world of which they can source their values and principals from. Good stuff.

However, in my opinion, some of these people have also at the same time blurred the lines between aethism and theism at certain times because the mainstream religion these days have been preaching theism supported through a particular form of diety and people might have forgotten that dieties could and can always not exist in ones belief in that sense.

In simply sense, I think there are Aethist out there who actually based their value and principals on a certain school of believes that either they choose not to admit or is actually not aware of the alignment of their aethism values to the values preached that could be taught by a certain school of theism out there

Couldn't have said it better myself specially your last paragraph.

I agree that due to the current complex religion system in where thoughts are being taught differently to suit the line of time we are living in now , can create confusion among the younger devotees. The cause of this, of which I think could be because :

- Availability of Historical information on the internet , books and media (History Channel). These could provide different versions of Myths and stories that youngster have heard from their parents, churches, mosque, priest or ulamas since young.
- Public debates one one's religion's authenticity , this will undoubtedly unfold many dark side stories that religions involved would be trying hard to hide previously.
- Advancement of Science, this have provided an alternative escape route to youngsters now, that it is okay to abandon the thought about religion, because science is the leading "New Religion" now and most of what science said, are already proven.

When you mix these 3 together, you will get a mentally unstable youth and he or she will be experiencing what Daccorn said in the 3rd paragraph in the quoted text.

I feel I should post here since I've spent over half an hour reading and digesting this thread.

This thread has seriously altered some of my perception towards ancient religions. Perhaps I need to do some soul searching of my own to form a new point of view towards religions

Btw, I'm a Buddhist that is more towards regarding Buddhism as a philosophy rather than a religion.

Buddhism is a religion with philosophical theory as its foundation, it is different compared with Abrahamaic religions with faith to single god as its foundation, this is caused by different philosophical perspective, or I should say the way to explain agnostic power that controls the world.

There are an agnostic power controls the world, human are curious about it, and yet fear about it, knowing an agnostic power existence cause human to name it. The personification of agnostic power become God, the most famous is YHWH created by Hebrews. The materialization of agnostic power become Heaven (in Chinese philosophy perspective), which occurs in China. The philosophy theorization of agnostic power become Karma, it occurs in Karmic religions such as Jainism, Hinduism, and Buddhism.

Then the personification of the power makes human fear about it, and thinks they will never achieve that, and subordinate to them. That causes the agnostic power have absolute authority over human, where human cannot win over. That means, no matter how powerful you are, you can't win God. Christians and Muslims goes to heaven to praise the god with psaltery, but they won't be the same with the god.

The materialization of the agnostic power makes human fear about it, and makes human try to harmonize with it and use it well. That causes human will try their best to harmonize with agnostic power. This exists in Taoism from China.

The philosophy theorization of agnostic power makes human going to research it, and try to break through it. So, Buddhism nirvana is to know the force of Karma that bounded on themselves, and control the Karma by knowing the law of Karma. While the highest attainment of Buddhism is the Buddha, and everyone can become Buddha if they follows the correct path of Buddhism. That means, Buddhists fears Karma and learn Karmic law, and trying to break through the karmic law.

Just my point of view, no philosophical training on me, yet. *>.<* And, I'm atheist.

This post has been edited by alizcielblutmond: Sep 11 2010, 10:35 PM

I myself love the beauty of greek mythology and i do think everything will only exist in the world if one believes there is!

One may survive without religion if he/she can believe on themselves and can differentiate the right and the wrong. However, in real life I do see many people will only seeks their gods when they are lost or cannot determine their direction in solving problems in life. Sometime human just want to find something to rely on or to depend on when they have no other options. Say I do not believes in any god but since I was taught from small to pray to my god and will practice that whenever i went to the temple but not on a must to do it. Hence, believing and trusting in god will somehow gives me a protection or assurance that at least there is hope my problem will be solved or my wish will comes true.

similar to avatarism