Note that This thread is not directed to or against any religion and should therefore raise no sensitivity issue. Please post with consideration of others feeling if you know that there are some element in the content of your post might raise an "Issue" . We are no scholars but I believe we are not stupid people either to understand that creating a racial/religious tension is not allowed.


Okay thread starts then.

I would like to know fellow forumers opinion and knowledge in both mentioned group , the atheist and the theist, Being the free thinker and the God's follower.

I myself is a shamanist, in which I do have something to believe, but that something is neither god nor prophet. I believe in the elements of nature and all that is around me has a spirit.

Given if the world now have managed to preserved the existence of the anceint Egyptian belief, the greeks, the nords , or just a philosophical life, which would you prefer to be absorbed in if you are given a choice to choose? And what are your thoughts about these ancient religions ? Note that you can also mention about present day existing religions.

Hope we can have a healthy discussion and I can learn more

yeah i saw, the religion thread. However I dont plan to take the same path as the TS there though lol. I'd love to see a more philosophical and intellectual style discussion here, thats why i used a more "Philosophical" term, Atheism and Theism lol.

I have no interest as to why people are fighting over religions, well I know the fact that humans been fighting for thousands of years about religion, i dont see that they will stop anytime soon but the word religion also brought many beauty in terms of philosophical and mythological form.

I really hope we can have a good and healthy discussion to share knowledges ^^

This is not a thread where we compare a religion with another religion, but rather we look at the ancient religion and if we were given a chance to choose, which one will be choose? and why ? and our pov on that religion.

There are many types of shamanist belief in this world, mine in particular is of the Altay Shamanist. Altay relates to a clan of people who resides at the Mountain Altay, who then migrated to other parts of the world due to their nomadic style of living.

We believe that our mother gave birth to us, but it is the nature that made us who we are. Every food we eat, and every water we drink were courtesy of Mother Nature. The elements of nature, wind,water,fire,earth and wood are of course our 5 our main pillar of strength , we believe that everything has a spirit residing in it. Respect the nature and acknowledge its superiority over human and it will guide you along your journey in life, Remember where you come from so that you will always have a home. These are words instilled to us since young.

There are 2 types of energy,

Sain - Positive flow
Uyain - Negative flow

Sain comes usually after a heavy rain, where land will benefit most. After a rain, plants usually grow and soils become more fertile. When life comes to live, it is a good sign of a new good begining and we consider that a hint from Her ( Nature ) that something good will come our way.

Uyain is usually considered as the wrath of mother nature, any nature caused disaster is a sign of of disapproval from Her, that some things cannot be tolerated anymore.

Humans always think that they own everything on this surface of earth and disregard a power more mighty and noble than them which is the power of a creator, the nature itself.We often disrespect anything that comes in our way and take it by force if we want it. We shamanist are not environmentalist, we have been here longer than them and longer than any other religion ever existed. We dont protect nature , we are in no right and position to do so. She is our almighty and we believe that she has the power to defend herself. Instead, we respect her like no one else do.

Buddhism in my opinion is a form of atheism , due to the reason that people believe it as an ideology. But slowly it became a religion when people believed in more detail values like Nirvana, and Rebirth. I think buddhism is quite borderline though between a religion and a spiritual belief.

Any buddhist wanna share?

yeah shamanism can be considered as atheistic as well, usually shamanist have something that they hold more precious than others. In my case, our sacred symbol is our Holy Mountain Altay. Like you said, the reason why the egyptian and greek mythology did not survive till today to be worshiped still is because of the non fitting environment in the modern society. Teachings that emphasizes an individual's superiority tend to vanish quickly when it comes to modern day world.

I think all religions are beautiful in their own way for they all advocated well being and what is good. Unless of course if it is being used for personal gain or to fulfill a selfish need. Waging war on others in the name of God is clearly an act of manipulation of its devotees in order to raise an army of unshaken and loyalty assured soldiers.

I am a big fan of the greek mythology, they have every way possible to make their gods and deitys look beautiful. The story of how Zeus was born and came into power itself is a very mesmerizing and inspiring story.

But the bigger question is, What is religion in everyone's view ? Can one survive without religion ? and what would have become of this world today if there weren't not any religion at all to start with ? Will philosophy instead replace it ?

hehehe very interesting replies, short, simple and yet understandable. I hope to see more coming ^^

Some people told me that , Human cannot afford to not believe in something. Or otherwise life would be outcoursed. Believing in god is a form of leaning towards something that can provide hope and guidance, because if one realised that there is no one above us that can help us, then situation may be chaotic. We need something to believe in so that we can enforce ourselves with confidence and hope. How true is that LYN Forumers?

"I greet upon
Wind as my sister ,
Wood as my brother,
Earth as my father,
Water as my mother and
Fire as my ancestors. "

This is a direct translate from a shamanist opening chant, whenever we perform a ritual. Wind as my sister refers to the gentle and tenderness of those of a sister that touches us during the warm and hot weather, however Wind also consist of Lighting, presence of lighting would signify that the spirit of the wind is not at ease. Wood as my brother, refers to the common surrounding in the jungle when hunters go for hunting surrounded by woods, and wood also provide us with fire, which is another essential of living. Therefore here referring to the care and protection of a brother always looking after you in your journey.

Earth as my father here refers to what that we have now that is on the ground, is provided to us like a father bringing food home. Water as my mother refers to the most powerful force of all nature element, the water. Not even wood can survive without water. Without water, ground will not be appreciated as much as it is now anymore and Wind will not be seen as beautiful as it is today. Water gave wood life, earth its reason to exist and to wind, beauty. Fire in contrast of water, is mentioned as reference to Ancestors. I believe most of you have seen that most shamanist and paganist rituals are done around a fire source or campfire. This is the reason why, because Fire are often used as a medium of communication with the spirits of our ancestors. If you have knowledge in ancient funerals, you would noticed that most shamanist arranged funerals by cremation or putting the body onto a made raft and send it to the sea.

Those who cremated the bodies hope that the spirit will join their ancestors and will continue blessing them.
Those who released the body to the sea hoped that the soul will be received and returned to Mother Nature.

Above are the basic knowledge I am sharing as to what shamanism is. I will also share another unformal ritual that we do practice when we shamanist are at the beach. I would take a handful of sand and rub it around my neck and chest. Those little bit of sand left on my hand will then be scattered back to the beach and I'd head down slowly to the water, lie down and let the wave wash the sand on my body away. This is to cleanse myself ( Like in some houses people would put a doormat at the main door, people are expected to clear of the sands and dust off their feet before entering the house ). By doing that, I have also declared to Her that I know her and I am here with respect and humble before Her great superiority.

I hope you guys enjoyed reading.

It is really weird as we can see now, there are many people who depends on religion heavily in order to carry out their personal life well. EG. Going to church, temple, mosque to seek for forgiveness and prayers, Does acknowledging that something somehow do exist in which we cannot see, touch nor feel but yet to admit that He or She is great, really helps ?

If so, Wouldn't believing in god then considered as an act of self hypnotism? Why need a belief that can make us feel good and do what is right when we already know what is right and wrong ?

In most ancient religion, God is a symbol of protection and devotees turn to god to seek and hope for protection. Action and values instead were determined by the government and philosophers. EG. Egyptian has no Religious Values as to how the society should live their lives. Egyptian gods are mainly "Looking after" its subjects and giving protection and strength. Even the greeks, the nords, and many others did not tell its subject how to live their life. Only the religions that comes after that and lasted till today advocated teachings and values. Why is that ?

@Kengz , Meaning of Pantheist


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The two quoted post above reminded me of something that I was thinking about some years ago. In many ancient religions, statues and carving of Gods were available and this gave an image for the people to know and remember how their Gods look like. Often Myths of the gods were shared to boost support and devotion to their gods. Many ancient religions shared the same features in terms of how the Gods were portrayed to the people, and how the Myths influences their daily lives. However, newer religions like Christian, Judaism , and even Islam completely rejected that God has an Image. and rather they provided another source of inspiration for the devotees to keep in their heart. These were nonetheless, Images of Jesus the Messiah, the Holy Bible , the holy book of Torah, the Quran and some others.The word God itself have gone through a new reform when physical statues were replaced with mental faith. Word paganism was created to refer to Ancient religions, and from there onwards we could see how these new religions were fighting among each other in order to subdue one another.


Personally, I believe religion is something that Humanity came out with in order to maintain stability and order in the society. It could have been made out by a group of influential philosopher , think tanker, or even religious persons. Bare in mind that, in the older days, Religion could win an empire a war better than the government. The Romans whom were pagans themselves before, became enthusiast christians and even ransacked Temples of other religions that were considered as Pagans. The reason I am believing in so is because of the much similarity of Islam and Christianity. Islamic scholars claimed that Islam existed long before any other religion did, ever since the noble birth of the first human, Adam and Eve. But, the story of Adam and Eve was already told in the Torah and the Genesis. Could they be talking about 3 different Adams and Eves ? Judging from the birth of Christianity, which geographically at the same place where Judaism was hosted, Could it be that Christian took teachings and values from the earlier teachings of another religion, refine it, and form their own religion ? Could the same thing have happened almost 600 years later when Islam was born ? Does the word religion now still have the same meaning as 3000 years ago than 2000 years ago ?

These 3 religions, Judaism, Christian and Islam have much similarity to each other than differences. There are no other religions that ever existed in the world shared so many common points and also left so many rooms of arguments in terms of their origins. As much as these 3 tried desperately to show that they are different from one another, none of these side could ever provide a good explanation on their origins. The only found solution for them was to eliminate each other so that they can claim the "copyright" of the history for themself.

The effect of these new religions have led to generations in this millennium to create an image of god in their own mind. People now are taught that, "There is only one god, although there are many different religions" , compared to the Ancient times when God can also be God(s). Ancient year china, where taoism plays a crucial part in securing faith into a religion, Deities were also considered as Gods, only as years gone by, God came into existence in the culture and thus Deities are just Deities, they are just like Angel Gabriel in Christian. Many more educated persons in the world who would probably share my opinion have crossed the line and became an Atheist instead. People now labelled people last time as Pagans and that they do not know how to respect God. But Look at humans now, we are manipulating the word God and its teaching to our own benefit more than those people in the ancient years did. Religion is now a huge complex system to bind people together to believe in what we should be believing in this age of time, but the belief could alter as time moves on. Could it be because of this that No static image of God was ever allowed? If so then wouldn't religion be a huge false consciousness of humanity ?

There are however a few religions that are like the Ancient religions. Buddhism for example, Whats the difference between Buddhism and Egyptian Religion ? They both have underworld, they both have values to be pass on to devotees, they both have temples and they both have a certain custom. While we cannot expect every religion to be spreading the same thing, we must accept differences in culture and norms in the religion. In Buddhism, we have statues and paintings of Buddha, the Buddha script, the Buddha teachings, Buddhist monk. Well these are the things that Ancient religions have as well, but the bigger question now is. Why is Buddhism considered as an "Ideology" by many people and not as a Religion ? And if Ancient religions were labelled as Cults and Pagans, then how did Buddhism and Hinduism survived till date ? Could it be because the newer religions like Christian and Islam did not manage to spread through the Eastern Hemisphere and establish itself as a dependent school of thought? Ancient egyptian and greek religions are still labelled as Religions today, where as Buddhism as labelled as an Ideology. So where does this put Taoism and Confucianism ?

Sorry for my long post.

This post has been edited by Zozi: Sep 11 2010, 10:27 AM

PhD school wut

Unfortunately I am not that much of a genius, and thats the best I could do to summarize the relation between Philosophy, Ideology and Religion from since before Christianity to modern day lol. paiseh

haha thank you for the compliment , I think there are many other smart people here and I am here really keen to learn. Learning is my passion, specially history, philosophy, mythology, humanity, politics and warfare. Those are my strong topics, but they are just some basic based knowledge topics though ^^

Couldn't have said it better myself specially your last paragraph.

I agree that due to the current complex religion system in where thoughts are being taught differently to suit the line of time we are living in now , can create confusion among the younger devotees. The cause of this, of which I think could be because :

- Availability of Historical information on the internet , books and media (History Channel). These could provide different versions of Myths and stories that youngster have heard from their parents, churches, mosque, priest or ulamas since young.
- Public debates one one's religion's authenticity , this will undoubtedly unfold many dark side stories that religions involved would be trying hard to hide previously.
- Advancement of Science, this have provided an alternative escape route to youngsters now, that it is okay to abandon the thought about religion, because science is the leading "New Religion" now and most of what science said, are already proven.

When you mix these 3 together, you will get a mentally unstable youth and he or she will be experiencing what Daccorn said in the 3rd paragraph in the quoted text.