Referring to comments on Autofoam, for those of you who have not done it, you need to be very clear of what effect Autofoam will have for your ride.

Autofoam on the chassis will no doubt give you the following benefits -
- better NVH on highway speed, wind turbulence noise can be reduced with foam filled chassis vs. hollow chassis.
- slightly better handling.
- increased rigidness of chassis / reduce the chassis flex.

But there is a negative effect on your ride comfort, for a Vios, your creamy smooth ride quality on soft sprung absorber will be affected.

Some people may believe and say that Autofoam gives you continental car feeling like BMW, I would not say its not true,...but its only partially true, let me put it this way -

- over certain road conditions, for example highways,...or freeway type of smoother roads with smoothly tarred connection on different road levels, then yes,...you can feel the firmness of the ride, abit BMW like because your car's feeling over such smooth bumps are more direct and less squat.

- However, if you are to go to some town roads, with alot of small bumps on left, right of the road,...your ride is gonna suffer badly,...it is gonna feel too "busy"...quite alot worse than before foaming.
Or if you go thru lots of ripples on the road,...you will suffer more vibrations,...basically the ride is harsher.Therefore, the notion of autofoam making your car feels continental is only partly true,...there is a negative side to the ride quality as well.

In conclusion, doing autofoam makes you realise that how much your chassis flex before doing foaming. But, a chassis flex is not always a bad thing, depending on how you look at it. If you are sporty driver placing top priority over ride comfort, by all means you can consider autofoam.
For our conventional cars, chassis flexibility is actually an extension of the bump and road uneveness absorption, thus improving ride quality.

1. It had been argued that autofoam or chassis stiffening improves ride quality because a stiff chassis forces the absorber to work harder to absorb the bump. This is true that the absorber probably works harder and absorbs more bump. However, a car with original absorber and chassis flex configuration still rides more comfortable on most road conditions.

Why? You can imagine this -
Scenario 1, original car chassis flex with original absorber = one mattress (or something similar) placed over 4 springs at different end.

Scenario 2, Autofoamed chassis with original absorber = a very stiff plank placed over 4 springs.

Both have plank and mattress have similar weight, when there is energy forced from spring to plank,...it needs to work harder to absorb the impact from below because the plank is stiff. While for the mattress, the spring works less when there is impact from below. But when you sit on the middle of the plank you feel more movements compared to sitting on the mattress.
What does this mean? A flexing mattress will be more comfortable than the stiff plank to sit on even though the spring works harder on the plank.

It is not true flexible chassis causes discomfort to the ride, you are sitting in the middle of the car,...the flex is more on the both ends of the car at front and read wheel,....just like the mattress.


So more or less you guys understand what autofoam does?
I don't have anything against autofoam, I just want you guys to be very clear of the effect because it is not reversible once you do it.
For guys who place very high priority on ride comfort, they regret doing autofoam even though it helps to reduce noise level to a certain extent. You can check out some random displeasures out there in Autoworld forum.

What i am commenting is on normal mainstream cars like Vios, City and so on.

Some could argue that stiffer chassis is definitely better because all the car manufacturers like BMW is increase the stiffness for newer model. But you need to understand that when the engineer of Honda or Toyota perform suspension R&D test on the Vios, it is based on such flexible chassis, so if you stiffen the chassis, it throws out the perfect original comfort setting, the absorber would not work as well for comfort anymore.

BMWs and Merc are different, they are heavy cars,...and they want handling performance as well as comfort,...for these cars, their ideology to achieve this is to stiffen up the chassis,...to optimize for handling and comfort,..and their suspension tuning is based on such chassis stiffness.

This post has been edited by cuckoo bird: Aug 24 2011, 11:28 AM

Hallo brother Ice Cube....

Yeah...I just did foaming and share my thoughts here.
I am more for comfort guy,...so personally I got mixed feelings on the result.
On highway and smoother stretch of road,...I like it,...but on more bumpy road, ride become harsher.

The reason I wrote very lengthy explanations is not against any shops or whatever,...
my main purpose is to share in good description what it is exactly like doing foaming.

Before I did it,...going thru other forums, I found a few things, no offense -

- just like political scene, many people can be very easily influenced by general public opinion. When this happens it clouds their actual judgement, and start believing what everyone says, while on the other hand the actual result is different.

Alot of people are promised continental ride quality after foaming,...and start believing it. Especially after they read stuff like travelling at 160km/h feels like 110km/h before and so on......these are all "over-blown statements"...
If you say the after improvement is 130km/h feels like 110km/h,....maybe thats more like it.


Many people confuse firm ride vs. harsh ride quality.
In general, there are so many different types of road conditions we travel through daily (e.g town road bumpiness,..freeway smoothness and so on).
Autofoam gives you a real continental feeling only on certain road conditions,....whereas in other road conditions,..the ride is harsh. I can gurantee you that BMW, Merc and Audi sedan has firm ride,..but on ripples and small bumps all over,..they are not too firm or harsh, even though they have very stiff chassis.
Probably its because of their car heavy weight,...and a different absorber mechanism/ suspension system.


I agree with you and can imagine that Kenari with chassis foaming would have tremendous improvement in handling. Well, Kenari in its original form with tall body,...definitely have very huge amount of flex...
Glad that you enjoyed it...


Anyway,...the bottomline is that,....I just want to give a detailed, real and unbiased experience to guys who wish to do foaming. Because I do realise that finding good experience is hard on the forum,..alot of it is diluted and influenced views which does not paint the true picture.

Hi Quazacolt, Samwong,....

I am not trying to pour cold water on this autofoam stuff,...as I had mentioned earlier, I just want to give some neutral view and make sure anyone considering it really knows the implication.
As it is not reversible,...you would not want to regret having to bear with your daily transport for many years to come before selling it off.

What I suggest for anyone considering doing it is to do a test on someone's car who did autofoam,...do a real "apple to apple comparison"....

Lets say for you Sam, with your Persona,...find someone with a Persona who had done it....
A car with same wheels and rim configuration,,....with same stock absorber and spring. When you do comparison,...you really need to do a side by side with your own car....
P/S - do make sure that the benchmark car you are looking for is at least 10 days after autofoam,....because initially the harshness is bearable, but as the foam starts hardening, so do the chassis stiffness,...and so do the ride quality become harder....Don't test on a car that is fresh from autofoam oven...i.e,..who just did it same day or only a day after.

Do make sure you test it over several different road conditions,...eg. -
- highway type of road
- town road with small imperfections along the way...
- bumpy roads...
- roads with alot of connection to "bridge" with different levels...

Do it side by side,...then you can really tell whether you like it or you think you cannot bear with the increased overly firmness or harshness.
Don't just test it on only one type of road conditions,...because if you test it on only the super smooth highway road,...you definitely will love the autofoam treatment.
But in real life,....for most people,...they travel thru many different road conditions on a daily basis...

In my personal opinion, most of our mainstream cars like City, Persona,..Vios, ..Altis have more of less same characteristics of flexing chassis,...and the chassis flex actually is part of the bump absorption that improves ride quality. But there is also chances that I may be wrong in the sense that a Vios is badly impacted,...while Persona's ride quality not so much affected.
I had read that Altis who did Autofoam also has same complain of harshness.

So bottomline is that,...if you really still want to consider it,....find someone with exactly the same car to do an exact apple to apple comparison with your car.

Else,...it is a risk for you to take if you can't find a benchmark comparison.

Relying on others' opinion are just too risky without testing by yourself. Just an example,..I do know someone who is a real confident speaker,...who tells me his family's Avanza ride quality is good,...yet complains that the latest Mercedes E-class ride is not comfortable....
I am just giving this example just to warn you about the danger of relying blindly on opinions...

Cheers.

This post has been edited by cuckoo bird: Aug 25 2011, 09:20 PM

No worries Sam Wong.

Just make sure before committing to it you do a real test on the same car.

Another point to add on the apple to apple comparisons,...apart from same car, tire configuration, rim size,..same stock absorber / spring,.....if possible also same tire pressure (I know its very tedious and demanding)....
But you really want an exact same parameters when doing test. Tire pressure also affects ride quality on certain types of road conditions.

And yeah of course...do share your feedback then, for the interest of all, thanks mate.

This post has been edited by cuckoo bird: Aug 26 2011, 09:42 AM

Well, it depends on what car I guess. There are improvements,...noticeable,...but not tremendous improvements.

Over super smoothly tarred surface or new tarred surface, ...original quiet,...with SP and Autofoam,...much more quiet.

Over coarse and rough road surface,....with Autofoam and SP also damn noisy if original is noisy. Autofoam is supposed to kill off those resonance and vibrations,...but in actual fact, the effect quite minimal in this area here.

For me, at the end of the day,...most important lesson is before doing it,....do a comparison test, don't rely on internet opinions.

Forgive my ignorance,...FD2 = the current latest Civic?
So did you do autofoam or not on your latest Civic. If you did, what was the result like?

Just too bad for your friend who drive the Vios as he too did not like it,....its one thing with the money wasted,...but worse is that it cannot be reversed and you will have to bear with it daily till it is time to sell your car...

On the positive side,...my Vios is close to 3 years old now when I decided to do it,...my car is on 6 yrs loan. Its a good thing I did not do it in the first few months with a bloody new car then.... So the period I have to bear with it will be shorter.

I am sure you do not have bad intention in giving your friends suggestions,...well, I could not blame you for being convinced on autofoam solutions, especially through so much good feedback....
In the first place if I am not convinced,...I would not have done it as well...

Congrats on your BMW ride,....I am pretty sure in its original form,...it already has foaming in many areas,...yeah,...don't do it and risk screwing up your good and expensive ride.

---

Added on August 26, 2011, 9:21 pmHi Ice Cube,,...I did comfort package + A, B & C Pillar...

however, its the opposite that happens,...I did A & B first,...no negative effective on ride quality at all.

But when added comfort undercarriage package and B pillar,...the real negative effect happened.


Hi Thundergod,..

Do you mean to say your ride quality do not have negative impact after foaming?



This post has been edited by cuckoo bird: Aug 26 2011, 09:21 PM

Hi Ice,...about 1 month with A & C pillar foaming before doing the comfort package

Desmond,

I don't understand about the excess autofoam seeping into the suspension parts,...care to explain which area of the suspension can an autofoam seep in?

It is less than 2.5 yrs car, with everything stock,... so nothing to do with worn out absorber and so on,...absorber performance does not degrade over night.

This does sound abit worrying that the excess foam seeps into suspension related parts.
I am from far away,.. you let me know where to check, I will get my mechanic to check.


P/S - I don't know if you are saying that I am a duplicate user trying to promote other chassis foaming product by giving negative feedbacks,..then you are totally wrong my friend.
What I am doing is to create awareness of the effect of chassis foaming, regardless of whether it is autofoam or whatever foam anybody else is doing.

OK then,...let me check this out later and I shall share my feedback to all.

Yup, correct thats me.

Anyway, I had not have the time to visit a mechanic yet, probably will do so end of this week.

I reserve my further comments till then,...of course I would be very glad if I can be proven wrong in my understanding of how the mechanism and result works,...

At the end of the day, the most important thing I care about is the situation of my ride and that whether I really enjoy it on a daily basis.

This post has been edited by cuckoo bird: Aug 30 2011, 08:35 PM

Desmond,

I had just done a thorough check on the car underbody at tire shop, though there are some slight access flowing out, it did not seep into any suspension related parts at all.
Suspension arms, front and rear,.. the part the arm connect to the body, the spring, the absorber,… everything that connects the wheel to the body had been thoroughly checked assisted by the tire shop owner, found totally no trace of any foam material seeping into the parts impeding the movements.

Therefore, unfortunately for me, I stand by my same conclusion that, for my car, Autofoam (or whatever chassis foaming) will have a negative result on the ride quality, which makes it harsher over certain roads,… the ride is much more busy over minor road imperfections compared to before foaming. I just feel much more of the road imperfections compared to before.
Even though, I am confident enough of how it felt before and after, I still took the trouble to drive a friend’s same Vios (which have all the same configuration of 15in rims, stocks absorber, spring) to validate, and this test re-confirmed and proved that a standard car without chassis foaming rides better.

A BMW 7 series which you had mentioned has the same areas foamed (undercarriage, A,B,C pillar), but it is a totally different machine compared to mainstream cars like Vios.
Different weight, different suspension layout design, totally different way of how the absorber works.


Or for that matter, the Subaru, Volvo, or Satria and the others,…which are claimed to ride better after chassis foaming, I don't know, but could it be due to the following possible reasons? (in no particular order, or in no particular % that contributes to favourable opinions on Autofoam undercarriage treatment) –

- Different cars with different physics, weight, how the absorber and suspension systems interact with stiffer chassis may impact different car less, or may even improve it.
My assumption is that cars similar to Vios (relatively light weight and with chassis that has a lot of flex), would have negative effect on ride quality. On the other hand, I may be wrong in the way that maybe a City’s ride quality after chassis foaming will not be impacted, or has less negative effect.
As you know, car physics, the damping, suspension design stuff and so on, is some very complicated stuff.

- Some owners who genuinely believed that the new found much stiffer ride is more “continental feeling” and believed that such ride characteristics means better ride quality

- Some owners who genuinely love stiff ride. There are some people who genuinely prefer the ride quality of car with lowered spring with higher stiffness. One man’s taste, could be another man’s poison I guess.

- There may be some owners who may have been “pre-conditioned” by the very generally favourable opinions of Autofoam’s effects, which could influence their own opinions.
You know, the type of thing whereby 99 people say it is white (in which the 99 people also includes people from as far as Singapore), or even cars like BMW does have undercarriage chassis foaming,..
how can I be the only odd person who saw it as black, it must be white as well.
No offense and sorry for being harsh, but unfortunately for me (in a Vios), I fail to see the emperor’s new clothing (or rather, the positive effect on overall ride quality). As explained earlier, BMWs and mainstream Japanese cars are totally different machine

Autofoam is good in improving road noise, especially at highway speeds,...no doubt about that at all,...but the same can't be said for the ride quality effect.

This post has been edited by cuckoo bird: Sep 4 2011, 09:36 AM

Just to add my comments on the youtube video subject of original vs. fake / imitation. It is a misleading title.Just my 2 cents and opinions.

Autofoam is sort of something like a re-branded product by KL Auto, there is no manufacturer called "Autofoam".. Thats what I think from searching from internet.
Autofoam is using the Wurth foam product.

Why I am saying that original vs fake is misleading?
There are not just Wurth company in the whole wide world producing foam product, there are other companies as well.
Previously when I did internet search, there are also Henkel's Terocore product and Subrosa with websites saying that they also do have such foam for automotive chassis foaming.
And I think Henkel did put in the website that it is used by some car manufacturers,...I may be wrong, but if I can recall correctly, I had read in some European VW forum that Henkel foam is used for VW cars chassis foaming by the car manufacturer.
It is possible that other than Wurth, Henkel and Subrosa, there are also others which do not publish on the internet.

So if other people claims they also have Autofoam,...then yes,...you can call it "fake" or "imitation",...because this is an own created brand name used by KL Auto.
But if other people use something like Henkel or Subrosa,...or any other brands which really produce specific product for automotive chassis foaming, then it is not correct to say their product is fake.
For example, ....a new invention called Soft 99 car polish,...you can be misleading to claim that all other car polish product are fakes....because there are also other car polish brands...get what I mean?
As I know, there is another shop in KL also claims to use Wurth product.

Rather than saying fake,...it would make better sense if one argues with very convincing facts that Wurth chassis foaming product is better than Henkel's, or Henkel is better than Wurth's chassis foaming product. (eg. with reliable and tested result,...or professional feedback's on the ingredients,..e.tc etc...)
But to call one or the other fake,...is totally wrong and misleading. Its abit like Michelin tire dealer calling Goodyear tires fake / imitation product.
This is a marketing ploy to scare people off from considering to do chassis foaming in non-KL Auto shop / other shops. This tactic could actually work because most of us are very naive and not knowledgeable when it comes to our understanding of chassis foaming product,....of course no Michelin tire dealer dares to call other tires fake / imitation because our knowledge in this area is matured and good enough to know such claims is nonsense.

Subrosa has an agent in Malaysia,...I had contacted them before for price inquiry,..the sales man did give two types of foams,...one is fire retardant,...the other one not recommended is not fire retardant and cheaper,...he did say that some people also use non fire retardant for chassis foaming.
Henkel also has an office in Malaysia, but unfortunately they do not sell chassis foaming here,...despite published in their website as one of their products,...the sales person has got no idea of that product name Terrocore..

The most important thing is, if you are going to let someone use a chassis foaming product, please be very sure that you are using the correct product, and correct method is applied. You don't want gaps in your chassis not properly foamed trapping moisture.
There are many types of foam,...some are for building constructions and so on but totally not suitable foam for chassis use. Again,...even if anyone is using wrong foam not meant for automotive chassis, I would rather call it using wrong / unsuitable product rather than fake or imitation...

You may wonder why I still went to KL Auto for foaming despite all these things that I know of,....well I am from Penang,...I don't have time to understand and visit every shops in KL,..see how the method they use for chassis foaming,..or visit them to look at their product name and specifications for further fact finding and so on....
So therefore, I decided to go for the most reputable one and most popular one,...even if price may be higher.

On whether any other shops all use wrong foaming products for car chassis foaming,...or correct products but different brands....I have no comments... Because I don't have a relevant experience and knowledge to backup.

This post has been edited by cuckoo bird: Sep 16 2011, 09:03 PM

Desmond,

What else can be done to cure my stiff and harsh ride now after the foaming? I need to know what will be done before really deciding if I want to spend an effort to drop by.

I can imagine it would be related to suspension tuning stuff only, change of different absorbers? And that comes with cost?
Or are you talking about removing some of the foams?

This post has been edited by cuckoo bird: Oct 1 2011, 08:55 AM

For some of you who had read my comments a few pages back,..I am for one who is obviously disappointed with doing the chassis foaming due to the much harsher ride quality of my vios.

For me, my car went from being (in my opinion), one of the best ride comfort quality in its class, to the worst ride quality after the chassis foaming.

I am so devastated by the effect that, immediately about two weeks after foaming, I thought of changing car, as it seems that foaming is irreversible. Surveyed around a couple of new cars,....did my homework calculations,....sigh,....I have to suffer with my car for 3 more years until loan is finished...
I don't have enough money to change car now,....I have to live with my mistake.
The main reason I bought this Vios is for the ride comfort (and resale value),...now I had destroyed the only good thing I used to love about my car.

My main target now is to see how to remove the foam,..or at least bring the car back to its original ride quality,...
I don't care at all about the benefits of the chassis foaming anymore,...the noise reduction is quite minimal,....certainly not enough to compensate for the harsh ride quality.
Is there any way to remove the foam without leaving some gaps and holes that can trap water causing rust?

Seriously,...every road expansion joint is felt like I over-inflated my tire pressure.
Every road imperfections is felt much more than before..
And for those who is familiar with driving on the Penang Bridge,...just to let you know, even when driving on Penang Bridge at normal speed,...it feels harsh,...the ride feels too busy and harsh.
And during traffic jam at Penang Bridge,... when you crawl slowly,...you feel every road imperfections there.....the absorber is not able to supress any uneven road surface. Without foaming, you don't feel this road unevenness due to chassis flex.

Can you imagine how it feels when you drive over poor road conditions and seeing your pregnant wife holding her stomach?


This post has been edited by cuckoo bird: Oct 8 2011, 11:16 PM

Thundergod & Quazacolt,...

Yes,...I do agree with you all that it will be good to bring it back to KL Auto to rectify the problem,...give it a one last go to resolve the problem that I am facing.

I know and sort of agree, it is not really right or fair for me to post my last final straw opinions here without really bringing it over there for last fixing of the problem.

Problem is I am very busy now and I am in Penang, and would not be able to go to KL within these few months,...and sheer frustrations get the better of me in controlling my emotions here.

lunchtime,

I haven't paid Desmond a visit yet, if I have the opportunity, I will. I really want to fix the problem I am facing, its annoying as hell.

In my opinion, the bushes, absorbers & springs are not the cause of the harsh ride.
I am saying this because immediately after the foaming, the ride feels significantly harsher.
Absorbers and bushes are parts that degrade gradually over a long period of time. It does not go from good to bad overnight, or in a week's time. No, it does not.

Even if replaced with new bush or absorber, there are chances that the ride could be slightly improved, but I believe that it will still be worse than before foaming.

I am really hoping that something can be done to fix this harsh ride, or at least reduce it at a noticeable amount, without having to cost more money.
Unfortunately, I do not have time to go to KL in these few months.
I know its not anyone's fault that I don't have time to go there,...but just feel the need to let it out and grumble..

Hallo All,

Just to give some update, Desmond from KL Auto did PM me a couple of weeks ago inviting to pay him a visit to see how my problem can be resolved.

But these recent months are sh*t busy months for me, and I will not be able to go to KL anytime soon in the near future.

I shall update to all if I really do go to KL Auto to correct the harshness.

---

Added on October 27, 2011, 5:35 pmQuote from Low Yat 82 -

"for some people tighter means more harsher.. lol... "


Well, it is true that different people have different set of preference in terms of the ride quality,...firmness,...suppleness,...spongy or mushy softness,...and so on...
Americans traditionally prefers spongy or mushy type of soft ride...
Europeans prefer firm ride quality,...that is how chassis foaming effect is so popularly been associated with Continental feel here..
European cars normally have firmer rides.

Having said all of the above,....I am very sure that if you give my car or any other car that suffered from harshness due to chassis foaming to a typical European driver,...or just give it to a road tester (say from Autocar or whatever),...they will call the ride quality harsh on most road surface,....despite the fact that these people love firm Continental ride quality.






This post has been edited by cuckoo bird: Oct 27 2011, 05:35 PM

-

Do you even read in details about my post? Or maybe you have read but you lack ability to judge troll from genuine complains?
Do I look like a troll to you? You have narrow mind.


Conclusion
- I am from Penang, and just had a new baby and didn't go back to KL Auto to let him fix the thing.
Thats why, I stop posting, because if I keep on complaining, then its not fair to Desmond because I did not give him a chance to rectify the problem.

- Its just unfortunate I am in a circumstance where I don't have time to go back there....

- until today, no difference, ride is still too stiff for my liking.


So what else do you want to see me posting?
For Christ's sake, I don't have any other thing to add, why should I keep on posting my disatisfaction.