A contractor recommended for me to use tampered glass alum windows instead of the std alum windows + grills.

Its way more expensive, but esthetic wise, does looks more like a home rather than a prison.

But I was wonderin, how safe are these windows (in terms of theft-deterrence)?

Need to strike a balance btwn esthetic, $ & security.

This post has been edited by kathlynn: May 24 2010, 01:53 PM

it's not a bad choice... use 8mm + laminating + 4mm + tinted laminate if possible. make sure the frame can tahan the weight. normal alluminium frame wont do. you need high quality frames like for example AUBI system. it works great though and unless they come with a major sledgehammer, it's pretty damn hard to break the window glass like that. suggest to put motion detectors around the house just to be safe though. done it and quite happy. it looks really good.

mind sharing with me ur contact for windows. my contractor suggested using reliance. its bout 7++mm thick. many thanks!

@PJusa,
It's damn hard to break but it's still breakable right?!

@kathlynn,
If U live in an area with high crime rates I suggest just to go with the usual grilles; I personally don't like it but hey it's secure enough to prevent unwanted situations/circumstances.

tinkerbel, true in the sense, but if i use grill, they also can cut it right? sigh, not easy to decide...

Interesting.
what is the price range vs normal grilled window?
Looks like it is better alternative than the ugly grilled window.

@kathlynn,
True but ain't it easier to break than cut through steel?

so true tinkerbel.

@kathlynn,
Plus tampered glass is going to be very costly. Obviously it looks nice but wait till u get the costings U may want to think twice

I live in a gated and guarded area with pretty reasonable security so I'm not too worried about security within my neighbourhood. I do however get worried when driving in and out of the neigbourhood though

Put safety film like those 3M brand will ensure anti-break feature for the glass. Be warned though, those film will fetch around RM1,000++ depending on the size.

@funnyTONE,
Hence might as well go with the common look of grilles, right?!

yes, it is quite expensive, the prelim quote given was extra RM1k for 11 std size windows.

tampered is strong enough to hold it up. jus like tampered windscreen. if break also, it doesnt shatters.

@kathlynn,
Knock it a lil more and it'll break lah. It's just stronger glass. IMHO I think use grilles la.

no such thing as a safe neighbourhood. two hse got broken into in my parents neighbourhood. gated (sorta), and still...

@tinkerbel,
Yes that's right - nothing is absolute!

yeah, i still feel that grills have the safer feel. but my only qualms is that it looks like a jail will take all these into consideration tho

why not try all above suggestion.. grill + laminate + tampered glass.

and for grill, put it outside and windows inside.. so whenever thief tries to cut the grill -> alarm sound -> thief run away -> you only need to replace the grill. If the windows outside and grill inside, for first attempt, thief will break you windows first -> if alarm sounds -> thief run away -> you need to replace you expensive windows.. which is much more expensive to replace compared with grill.

if im havin grills, no point havin expensive tampered glass windows. all bout the $ in this case.

@kathlynn,
There are nicely designed ones; those don't really look too jaily I'm not too used to grilles since I've moved to this new place; no grilles on my windows

why not try the inversible grill?...try to google it...it like a cable wire that can attached to an alarm system.....showroom i think is in subang jaya or puchong...

FYI – Reliancehome quote – RM63psf (incl frame + window + tampered glass)
same thing, with jus norm glass – RM56psf. Isnt much diff right?

Yeah, my house has a nice design pattern so it doesn't that jaily. Just don't get those basic square ones

mind sharing a pic of what you meant? ive seen the horizontal, thin/slim grill, but somehow, still looks jaily to me......

if grill u put outside, they will take down ur grill 1st, sometime easily "unscrew" them if ur contractor did a lousy installation job, once take down ur house is left defend-less, the window can be cut, they won't necessary knock or hack it.

invisible grill doesn't works well with dsl as you can easier cut off the wire.
of course, you don't expect to attach 1 alarm sensor per wire right?

wow... 60 bulks psf? that's very expensive
anyhow, people will still get in even your house with alarm, grill or what so ever gadgets that you may put it
just need to be careful by keeping your valuables away. perhaps a home safe deposit box?

'oth parties are actually finding a solution for such a long time, until the INVISIBLE GRILLE™ been invented (which registered with WorldTrade copyright) to overcome the said issue.

It's a new revolution in windows and balconies guard, it is a simple and affordable way to prevent children and household objects from falling off the balcony or opened windows. This product is highly durable and able to last for at least 20 years and above. The INVISIBLE GRILLE™ with built-in alarm system provides tight security for buildings while providing burglar-proofing effectiveness, without impairing the building’s exterior. The design objectives are thus achieved.

THE INVISIBLE GRILLE
IT SAVE LIVES IN HIGHRISE BUILDING !!
The INVISIBLE GRILLE™ has a high technology and flexible design. Each of the high tension cable withstands a tensile force up to 200 lbs, which means it cannot be cut by a little child but it can be dismantled easily by a fireman or an adult with appropriate cutter in case of fire or emergency and with such a short period taken, many lives could be saved. (We have obtained a consent letter dated 19.6.2006 from the Fire and Rescue Department that they have no objection towards our product).

http://www.invisiblegrille.com/more_information.html

try this...anyway i'm not a sales person for this..but wish if i could afford it..cheers..

Depends on your budget - Grill will seriously affect the design but economically worth

Tempered glass is esthetically nice but is costly and not really securing. (Even 12mm thk tempered glass has the possibility to be broken with multiple knocks)

So, I would recommend you to go for grill if you have tight budget =)

Good Day

Tampered glass is nothing but just some BS by those glass vendor.

Consider this,... Tampered glass has been around for ages....and why now? because the new gen house owner nowaday want "nice" look and not the prison look.....

You have 2 option: Take a risk to have no grill at all or do the conventional grill. If you dont want to prison look, forget wrought iron because it look too beng! and BTW wrought have the highest margin ratio so vendor love to sell wrought iron. secondly many kids and owner cut themselves with wrought iron.

if you go with minimalist design drill ie horizontal with thinner size ie 1cmx3cm instead of just square one like 1.5cmx1.5cm.

those window frame that accomodate 10mm thickness are not cheap.

Just one question for those suggesting the no-grill approach. Do you feel secure at night if you leave the windows open for ventilation?

Having tempered glass + lamination film only helps when the windows are closed. When open, anybody can climb through the window easily.

Unless you say every night sleep with air-con on and windows closed

If I am not wrong, you do not need an alarm sensor per wire. You just need one for a window.

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Added on May 25, 2010, 8:49 pmWhen the tampered glass breaks, it shatters into pieces. The laminated glass do not shatter.



This post has been edited by T816B: May 25 2010, 08:49 PM

ok, so many replies... you can get in touch with those people:

UPWARDS SOLUTION SDN. BHD
18, JALAN PERUSAHAAN 3
OFF JALAN KOLEY, TAMAN JINMA
43300 SERI KEMBANGAN SELANGOR D.E.
Malaysia

Jeffrey Foong
Tel: 0389480469
Fax: 0389414458

you need really good frames and yes, you better get safety glass + security film + another layer of safety glass + laminate film. (this is how bullet proof glass is made... layers of film between the glass). it's really pretty safe - probably as good as a normal grill and you cant just saw. you need a big hammer (like 2kg+) and it will make a huge noise. no chance of a hush hush break and enter. if you combine it with motion sensors before the windows i'd think it's a safer + nicer option.

the people who did mine (not upwards but the installation was done by idiots so i wont recommend them to anyone, upwards was recommended by AUBI in Germany to rectify the issues we had with our system) showed me how tough the glass is. tried it myself.... you really need to make several good and heavy swings. otherwise the best you can do is crack the outer glass. anyway your frame must be able to hold the heavy glass and also it should be multi-point burgler proof frames closing all around. germany windows are fine i guess. ask around. price is high though.

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Added on May 25, 2010, 9:36 pmoh for ventilation you can make only the top say 20 cm openable and the rest fixed. that way you tilt.... only 10cm space -.... cant get in. cant open handle fully either. pretty good

This post has been edited by PJusa: May 25 2010, 09:36 PM

you do mean "tempered glass" right? i would never install "tampered glass" on my house windows.

mind sharing w me the price range so that i can roughly know how much we are talkin about here for the good frame/glass? thanks

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Added on May 26, 2010, 2:06 pmSorry, the quote given for Reliance is for "laminated" glass. tempered glass is my layman term

This post has been edited by kathlynn: May 26 2010, 02:06 PM

kathlynn,

this will depend on your window design and all. ours was custom design with burgler proof window frames + security glass (glass+security film+ burgler proof glas+tinted security film) + aubi handles and closing mechanism but nothing fancy with respect to window openings, used closed bottom and openable top as per our custom design. after very very hard negotiation (we didnt use upwards mind you) it was still almost 80 RM / sqft. it will however totally depend on what you choose. if you use more basic frames and less openable windowparts you can greatly reduce costs alo larger glass areas will cut costs. we got a lot of quotes for various qualities and the range was between 40 RM/sqft (lowest but really not good) and 160 RM / sqft (insane....). the installer we ended choosing was totally incompetent. if you decide to go for one, i can let you know whom to avoid like the plague as mentioned AUBI germany was very sorry about the poor job done and recommended to use upwards to solve our remaining problems. dont want to get to detailed here.

what you should make sure is that you have doubleglazed glass of some sort and get a finishing car-tint (we used raybarrier) that way the window will keep heat + noise out. this system is enough to keep the smaller differences in temperature here out of the house. also make sure the frames have double seal system (one for dust/noise and one for water). locking should be on side opposite the hinges and and the other two remaining sides with multi-point lock-system, pins must be mushroom headed (like the picture). burgler-proof window glass should follow this norm: DIN EN 356, class P 4 A, P3 should also be fine though. if you are really scared get P6 or higher, this means you need 30-70 hits with an axe to get an opening of 40cm size. if you use only one glass of burglar proof glass, place it inside, that way the normal glass breaks first wich can cause cuts more easily.
if you dont use security glass, then use anti-burgler glass. class A2 for normal security and if really scared B1 or B2 - security as for the security glass.

hope this helps.


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tampered glass with no grill...make sure 10mm and above

as far as i know it's all about the security class not mere thickness. if the glass doesnt meet the specs, thickness doesnt help you much.

thanks pjusa, this will be a great guide when i go huntin for windows!

Cutting the grill will make noise and it is not easy. Normally a thief will pry open the gate or cut the lock directly.

sigh. still undecided......

If you're undecided and you can afford it, then go for the nice windows with tempered glass + safety film.

Almost all commercially used glass are tempered. Glass which are not tempered will cut flesh when broken. What you probably want is double layered reinforced panes for added strength & security. Provides good sound insulation too.

This post has been edited by spanker: Jun 1 2010, 11:23 AM

yeah, think i will go for tat for my front windows, but jus keep my back(kitchen) windows grilled.

laminated glass is easy to break with pen knife cutting through the laminate skin. Use sharp object and knock the cutting area.

is it? i didnt knw that... mus ask the salesperson

that is not true, vexus. first off the laminate is inside and in our example between two window panes. this is basically how bullet proff glass is made. glass + laminate + glass + laminate + etc.

if you buy the security class i suggested there will be absolutely no way you can use a pen knife to get inside. the best you would be able to do is cause a small scratch if any to the window. go and try it at a vendor's sample glass. while you're there you can also do the axe-swing test. if you can do it with less than the required smashes for the respective class, its not the class they claim it to be.
what you can do if someone has laminate outside (which would be pretty stupid) is to cut the laminate itself and maybe peel it a bit. but you still wont be able to get into the window.

my brother house got broken into even though its grilled with metal bars. How they do it? they break the walls/bricks at the sides and the whole metal grill just drop....

r u sure the thieves have that much of a time to actually knock down the walls. It will take at least an hour or so to break down brick walls. What more is that the noise that it'll make. Wouldn't the neighbour be suspicious of all this?

One advantage of having grills - the grills are visible and act as a deterrant. If you have tempered glass, the thieves thought there are no grills and will climb into your garden, then realise it's tempered glass, but since he's there anyway, he tries to break through. If got grills, he might have moved onto the next house...

If they can break through walls, why not just saw through the grilles? Both damn noisy anyway.

conclusion is that no matter what type of windows i get - there is still a risk of gettin broken into?

then in that case i shud go for the one that looks nice i.e. tempered/laminated windows without grill

the weakest point of laminated tempered glass is 4 side edge corner. Any hard sharp object hit that area it will break.

once again, please do a readup on how security glass works or better even go and try it. you will see that what you said has no relation to proper security glass vexus.

for me, i would prefer with grill anytime. same reason with Dannyl
and 1 more thing, the thieves do not know the special glass until they try to break it & that is too late
the glass already have some break marks if not broken, u need to replace it & it cost more $$ than normal glass

I have an airwell with openings at the sides for light to come in. I'm considering either fixed glass bricks, or fixed tempered glass as I do not want grills all around the airwell. For ventilation, I intend to have top hung alu windows ( 8 inches in height ) all around.

Now my dilemma is... glass bricks or tempered glass....

you should proceed with tempered glass+laminate without the security grille, it should be alright from my experince..i did the same thing to my house, try Glass Network Malaysia,

Good luck

ok, say we use thick glass for security reason. how about in case of emergency like fire, difficult to break the glass from inside the house or not ?

cause its not easy. you should have exits in front and back that are safe but can be opened easily from inside (i.e. security doors). if you have a good frame it will be almost burglar proof but can be opened easily from inside too. so no need to break the window.

if emergency and there's grill, isnt it worse?

@kathlynn - guess so

they will try to pry it with a clawhammer and tempered or lamintated one side and saw it down, it will just come out in a square shape and goes in.

This is what i saw when my friend laminated + unbreakable car window got saw off like a piece of plastic. I think it work the same since the edges of every glasses is rubber.

if you buy a real security or burglar proof window (and not some crappy aftermarkete lamination product) you will be able to tell the difference. read my earlier post about classifications and the such and check out how those windows *really* work. of course it comes at a price but what doesnt.

for some windows, have to make the grill open-able (not sure if this is the correct word), but of course the trouble would be finding the keys to it when you need it ... at least still able to escape in case emergency.

decided that i would do a simple french window for the front of my hse (without grills) but controlled opening. using tinted glass, but not tampered (as if they break also, they cant climb in)

for the back, i'l b usin norm plain window + grill....

thanks guys for your help & suggestion

asking the same opinion since i cant find the topic discuss

grill or securit film..in addition to house alarm..which is which peeps?

Straight go for laminated glass.....With house alarm maybe??But if install fixed glass instead of window when air cond spoil or no electricity how?

Get very thick Tempered glass > 12mm, and put in 3M security tint. Very strong... and VERY VERY Expensive also

I have a friend put in one pair of this setup think is 1' x 8' and cost him about 8k. All very very thick aluminum material.

if that the case, i advice the user to get a 6mm + 3mm laminated glass... much cheaper than 12mm + 3m security film but still strong enough to withstand few hits from a hammer.
my opinion : grille is not the best looking thing but it gives a "hard to break in" sign for thieves. normally "small thieves" would enter from ur roof instead of windows or door, a motion detector alarm would help. but when u are dealing with those kind of organzation / well planned "big thieves, basically nothing works on them. no matter how expensive ur alarm system ur thumb print lock or wat so ever (only to slow them down), they still manage to park their truck in ur car porch n start loading stuff...

btw, only stupid thieves would break a glass to get into a house...

Grill or no grill?

I think still need grill la coz you cant be closing your glass door 24hours. I opened my glass door most of the time to have air circulation.

you can opt for windows with a double window layout: i.e. openable at the buttom that you keep closed and tilt top part (say 1 foot 1 1/2) which you can open while noone can squeeze through the opening. so you wont need a grill if you air the place.

IMHO, for security, there are several things to consider.

Windows is one entry point, doors the other, some burglars come in through the roof and ceiling. Grill under the roof? I know that some people do that as well.

You need to secure all the points of possible entry.

Grills can be kicked in, happened to my parent's home. Unless you anchor it deep or weld it into steel bars embedded into the walls. Most people won't/don't do this. Its a house not a jail.

Another time, burglars came to my parents in broad daylight with a large lock cutter. Came in the front door.

Having a grill is a deterrent. Door grill can be sawed or pried open, happen to neighbor's place. I've seen a demo of a small saw sold in Mid Valley that the sales guy saw through several nails sideways like a hot knife through butter. Diamond blade or something.

Keep less valuables in the house, don't have a too fancy car, lesser target but also no guarantee.

Basically making it harder for them that's all. And buy some content insurance

i have 12mm tempered glass skylight for my kitchen...18' wide x 8' depth... FYI, my house isn't located in a guarded neighbourhood. normally they would enter from ur roof, just make u have at least 2 motion detectors (depends on how big is ur roof) inside ur roof.

anyhow, i would still go for grill even guarded area.

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Added on April 30, 2012, 1:28 amyou have the point, thumbs up for u.

This post has been edited by melvyn: Apr 30 2012, 01:28 AM

i actually intend to do this instead of a window, alternate solution to ugly grills,
planned to seal off the balcony and cover it up with glass.

will try to get some photos this week

Grills are the weakest form of security and gives you nothing but a false sense of security. Laminated glass is way way more resistance to force entry

here you go guys..
any idea how much this size of glass going to cost me?

This post has been edited by nitromx: May 1 2012, 09:33 PM


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I am using 12mm laminate glass with a rough dimension of 8' x 7' which is around RM3500 including installation. From GlassNetwork

For real strength with same thickness tempered glass is still better.

True that tempered glass has more strength than laminated but for home security purposes, I think you want laminated glass

this article i found explains it better than me -

Tempered glass is not designed to resist breaking. Instead, it is intended to prevent or minimize injury upon breaking by shattering into thousands of small, blunt pieces instead of razor-sharp shards. In terms of residential security, tempered glass is not ideal because it will break easily and with little noise. Laminated glass is harder to break than tempered because when impacted, the PVB layer remains inside the frame and the glass fragments stay adhered to this layer. This makes it difficult to break without a lot of noise and glass cutters will also not be able to cut it from the outside.

Read more: Tempered Glass vs. Laminated Glass for Residential Use | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/info_12150924_tempered...l#ixzz1tfZUjff8

3.5K
care to share some photos?

Here you go. Picture with existing encasement window. After removal of encasement window. And during install.

This post has been edited by dchk: May 2 2012, 10:59 AM


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Truth ...5MM+5MM normal laminated glass is strong enough to withstand hits from a hammer. it will break, but it won shatter and still in 1 piece. trust me, 5mm + 5mm laminated glass is strong enough!! if u wanted more, just get a 5mm normal glass + 5mm tempered glass laminated OR 5mm tempered + 5mm tempered laminated if budget allow.

If not mistaken, I got tempered laminate 12mm. So best of both word. If only I had funds to have an extra lamination tint like what they do for cars which not only has impact resistant but also UV and TSER protection.

Remember, more glass means more heat into the house.



This post has been edited by dchk: May 2 2012, 02:07 PM

I think that is called strengthened laminated glass, is much better than laminated, but not as strong as tempered. Not many people supply here. Can try ajiya our some famous manufacture.

nice bro! kaya la you

if u guys really wants maximum strength, just go for the hardened tempered glass laminated with 12mil (0.3mm) film (1mil = 0.0254mm)...not sure whether malaysia is producing 12mil above safety film.

but i think 12mil safety film is too much as when 12mil of safety film were applied on a 3mm glass, its tensile strength is 17kg/cm....imagine u applied it on 2 layers of 5mm tempered glass, how strong it can be?

a normal 12mm tempered glass can withstand a 300kg weight (i think more than tat)...u do the math....

Can the wall take the load or not?

300kg is the tensile strength of the glass....not its weight.. 1 piece of 12mm 4' x 8' glass weights about 80-90kg only.

how much the price for installation? they help to remove the existing window casement as well?

As mention earlier RM3500.

how do u design your front door grill then, without making it look like a jail type design? i also intend to open the glass door most of the time for my new house.

yeap, agree with you. grille can only slow down the process a little bit only, and they can still enter your house (assuming you are not in the house). but if you are inside the house, at least it gives you some sense of security to open your glass door or something and those burglars cant just charge inside without breaking the grille first.

so is it overall, using grill proven to be the best?

meaning if i want glass with limited budget, i'll go for:
normal 5mm glass with 5mm laminated?
or direct buy 5mm laminated?
How much would 5mm laminated cost?
I don't want grilles

5mm, laminated is very weak. Is still better get tempered with minimal 8mm, or 10mm laminated. Laminated is very easy to be break especially if is flat without curve like car windscreen. Use tempered + add on tint is much better.

Is your house landed?

You need to think of other area too when your house without grills, you going to open the wooden door and windows open without grills or gate when you at home? Our watching TV time? Not worry suddenly people jump in without you notice?

My neighbor don't windows grills and small gate after the wooded door, she don't open up the windows and wooden door even at home, is ok she always switch on AC, so no big deal for her.

I was advised to use combination of laminted glass on fixed panel and secure screen for movable panel. What do you all think...

i was advised by my friend to use safety and security film. the product call ArmorShield. This is an alternative for iron grill bar and somemore can reject solar heat. The cost for it is around RM16 to 18psf

What bout normal glass with security film?
Makes any difference with tempered laminated?
Maybe will do such pane if it's mean for brightness purposes in laundry areas, stairs.

Sorry for resurrectng this thread but considering the recent influx of crime in the news, I'm more concerned about security more than ever.

To those who have installed their respective glass or grilles when this thread was still active, any news you can share on performance? Insulation, noise, maintenance, security, etc?

This post has been edited by OneMoreDay: Aug 18 2013, 01:30 AM

Anyone?

Both tempered and laminated glasses are considered toughened glasses. The key difference to consider is the failure mode: when tempered glass shatters, it breaks into many tiny pieces so that there are no dangerous shards. Whereas for laminated glass, the shattered pieces would stick to the laminate and not fall. Laminated glass would be preferable if there is a potential of falling glass in the event of a shatter, e.g. a glass roof or skylight. Other than that, I think both offer similar break-in protection.

In my home, all the windows and skylights use laminated glass. It's quite tough. (A full grown man can easily stand on it without breaking). I distrust grills because they are ugly, give a false sense of security and represent a fire escape hazard: it's actually very easy to defeat a grill if you know the weak spots (hinges/joints).

One other thing I noticed about laminated glasses: they attenuate cellphone signals significantly. So if I close all the windows, I can't make a call on my cell phone ^^'. Not sure about tempered glasses though..

Thanks for the info. I'm planning skylights as well so this was mighty useful.