Bro, I am like you; I am also just a member of an Association affiliate to the federal Association but I was the Chartered President for my local Association...........I recommended my Association to join the Fed to make it stronger but Like I say, I can only give advice to my local association and whether they follow or not is up to them. As for the case of the Penang's side, I believe the Penang Association and the Fed has taken some form of initiatives on their part to solve the problem as how they do it, I am like you, just blurred. I shouldn't pass any comment or even involve in the discussion for the Fed as I am not in the committees, just the Adviser for my Local Association............The state govt. belong to the Opposition and hope that the opposition share our feelings and proposals on the swiftlets sanctuaries @ Penang........Who in Penang and know the Penang CM may be able to advice the CM on allowing the BH at the area to remain maybe under special conditions and

I would like to help but sometime not knowing all and in details, best leave them to those who know.....otherwise, I would have shot the wrong guys for which I would regret later. Who right or wrong, I like you tidak tahu sedikit langsong.....so, I jangan pandai pandai, nanti kena marah ...jadi bodoh sahaja.

This post has been edited by West Wing: Aug 7 2010, 01:35 PM

I wish to inform that there will be a public forum on Monday, 9.8.10 at 9.00 am in Komplek Penyayang Masyarakat on the new Garis Panduan. There will be a presentation on the 1GP by Jabatan Veterinar and Jabatan Warisan. I have managed to persuade the organisers to allow me to speak on that day in support of our cause.

There is strong opposition from Penang Heritage Trust so ASNI need you to come and support us. If we do not stand up & be counted now, we will lose the battle and it will mean the end of bird houses in Penang.

As a result of the many meetings and negotiations ASNI had with Jabatan Veterinar and Jabatan Warisan Negara over the past year, the 1GP allows existing Bird houses to remain in the heritage zone.

Furthermore, the Association will be consulted and be involved in decisions involving the bird houses in the heritage zone. According to the new 1GP, the Association will have a Representative in the Committee.

ASNI is fighting to maintain this and as anticipated, we are facing strong resistance from Penang Heritage Trust. ASNI will not back off, we will continue our fight but we need your support.

Please spread the word and attend the forum with your friends and fellow birdhouse owners.


Regards
Carole Loh
President
ASNI



DANGER!!!!!!!!

So, you see that the Fed has been doing all they can but the Anti BHs are all deaf and refuse to discuss...........so, it's now up to you all owners and supporters to united and attend the forum by the hundreds if possible, thousands to help to save all the BHs in Penang. Come all and help or else, when domed day comes, you got yourself to be blamed cos you haven't done your best!!!!!

Bring your friends and supporters as well as all kind and animal loving people who care for the swiftlets survivor as the beautiful swiftlets may face a massacre like what happened @ Mukah and in a much larger scale.....thousands maybe millions of babies (swiftlets) will die in one and later many of your friends may lose all their whole life saving just because you didn't care to lend a helping hand. Be there.........to show that you care for the swiftlets and those poor people that offer swiftlets sanctuaries for the free and peace loving swiftlets..........

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Added on August 7, 2010, 9:01 pmTheir minds are totally closed and made up. They will only be satisfied if birdhouses are banned in Penang. Anything less than that is not acceptable to them.....according to Ms. Carole Loh, President ASNI.

So, there are nothing to discuss as those Anti BHs have their ears closed and we need to prepare for battle to ensure the safety of our swiftlets and their offsprings..............Ishaallah, we shall see tomorrow sun.


This post has been edited by West Wing: Aug 7 2010, 09:01 PM

As I did mentioned that the old and the wild can coexist and the BHs may bring in more tourists to the heritage area to see the swiftlets as it's also a part of our history. The swiftlets have been there for hundred year and only recently, the increment of swiftlets have risen to a profitable level; thanks to those enterprising owners of BHs or otherwise, most of the old building may have been torn down and replace with new modern structure.

Only with profit and wealth will the place be prosperous. As a owner of the old heritage building, what do one get in return??? then it shall be at the land owner advantages to have it tear down and transform it into a new hotel or something and then where will any heritage building remain after that? So far so good as to the advantage of the heritage buildings, the swiftlets like old buildings and that's why the heritage buildings remain till today or otherwise, most of the heritage buildings already torn down.

It all come back to dollars and cents.........even for the so called Ms. Rebecca, an outspoken council member of PHT as she run a Homestay Resthouse in that area, a very personal reason really, don't we all agree.

I, too have a reason like her but mine being that I wish that the swiftlets be saved from destruction which I believe is more logic than her and not so personal.

From my point of view and all those who agree with me is that from the day you elect your office bearers, you have already decided to allow them to act and speak on your behalf. So, what ever action they take, you are also responsible for their action as you elected them and that's democracy; the majorities over the minorities. The elected ones shall be answerable to the BOD and to all members should they preformed not to the expectation of the majorities of members and the only only way is to remove them through an EGM. Like Association, Country are also rule by President and they are elected by the people to represent and act on belhalf of the people and if the people choose wrongly, then they have to suffer and we don't expect the President to seek the view of the people each time they encounter problem, making him a useless and ineffective President as so as all elected office bearers. Likewise, they will be answerable to the members for all action taken ......

BH representatives @ Penang or elsewhere, do your best, I would appeal to you to use your opportunities and your positions to get the most of what be obtain......cos, my future is in your hand.

If the country chooses the Fed Association as our representatives, then it is up to us to ensure that we get the correct representatives in thru voting. Then, you may ask that many of us aren't members and we are not represented and you got yourself to be blamed like you didn't registered as a voter. If wolves (I didn't mean that the present ones are wolves ) been elected as the government, who to be blamed but you for not taking a interest in the country.

Right or wrong, when we trust and leave our future (voting) to them, we already entrusted them that they will do their best and in the interest of us.

As a saying goes," you can never please all the people all the time and you can only please part of the people at one time" If you try to please all the people all the time, you end up pleasing no one. Just do what you think is the best and in the interest for the people at the time, place and at the situation and if you are please with what you have done, then you must be doing the right thing at the time,situation and place".

My own suggestions toward the industry have been forward to my Local Association and it's up to them to forward to the Fed Association and having done that, I will back them up for whatever decision they take as I did vote them in and they may not share all my views but whatever they have taken must be the opinions and interest of the majorities of the members concerned. Hope that they make wise decisions cos my head (BHs) is also with them.........Lastly, I do understand the ASNI as they have to consider opposition public opinions in the matter, too and nor only ours as we, the BH owners and friends are only a minorities in the country and the government need to consider the pros and cons and then how best to compromise and come to an agreement. Give me money and I still I won't want to be in their shoes to negotiate a solution best for all as any solution, it will certainly offended some of our BH owners and those against the industry no matter what the outcome be.

My opinions on the matter... and I believe that I may offended some here with my postings but then, please do forward your comments, too.

This post has been edited by West Wing: Aug 10 2010, 01:19 PM

Farming was used from day one even from Veterinary Department and I objected to the term "Farm, farming and Farmer" as we never did farm swiftlets but allow them to use our buildings as their home and prefer to refer us as Swiftlets sanctuaries provider and harvesting the nests is part of the rewards from providing the swiftlets with a safe birds sanctuary.

The swiftlets fly in and out freely and naturally and farming of swiftlet is still illegal until the government accept the reclassification of our house swiftlets which infact is different from those cave types, many departments and NGO are using it against us. If the swiftlet feel threaten and leave, there is nothing we can do as we neither caged nor feed them....free to come and free to go......

Why we perfected our building to ensure that the birds do feel at home....

I do understand those who want to venture into the trade feel unhappy as the new GP may not allow them to start @ town and I too have all my BHs @ town and now, I have to venture to agriculture land to build my new BH as I know that all the local governments are against the Bhs @ town as they feel that the BHs will create too much problems for them. No matter how much persuasion or undertakings or assurance provided by us cannot change their mindset. Just talk to any YTP and he will tell you that if he has the choice, all BHs must be remove from the town.

So, are we going to tell the government to either allow all, now and in future or to remove all from town???? So, I believe that the best solution is to preserve the present ones and ask to new ones to do it @ agriculture land which I will try but still feel very uncomfortable and uneasy and would still prefer to do it in town if allowed to do so.........In agriculture, I feel so hopeless but I can't be selfish.................saving what we have and advising the newcomers to try it @ agriculture land maybe the only solution available. Remember when cornered to make a decision, it may not be in our favor. Oyes, the idea of allowing present BHs to remain is the that of the government to settle the disagreement between the two parites, I believe from what I heard and believe.

Kindly correct me if I am wrong and I hope that I am wrong and if the government allow new BHs @ town, I am going to sell off my agriculture land now and buy more @ town as I have the confidence in town but not @ agriculture land. Also, I feel much safer @ town and also for safer for my birds lest predators, wild and worst two legged ones.

Lucky, the birds provide good returns or otherwise we won't have our PM and his cabinet to back us up even knowing that even birdshit is safe. We, the bystanders sometime don't really understand what really happened behind the curtain and only see the play.........alot happened behind the curtain.

That's why I always emphasis that we should be friendly and respect our neighbors. Our BHs be cleaner and more pleasant than others and that, we should not at least disturb their family at night.....

My suggestions have been.
1. Have open air well type in town.
2. direct your tweeters toward the sky as then only Swiftllets and God will hear your call.
3. Shut off your sound system at night although it's better to have alittle sound for new BH but for the sake of the neighbor, better slower that to force out.
4. Listen to complaints by the neighbors and act or explain to them.

so far, how many of us really do it, I wonder??????

Again, I talk too much but only out of my love for the swiftlets. Thank you all for listening.

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Added on August 11, 2010, 1:15 pmAs far as I know, none of those local swiftelts associations I know suggested to the majlis to only allow existing BHs but after knowing what maybe in the GP, told those new ones to be careful as the new GP may not allow them to do so. Also those building near residence areas are also reminded that they may lose their money if the majlis force them out.

If you have a BH @ town, then you should be a member of that area Association where your interest can be taken care off by the unity of all members there. I am a member for all local associations where my BHs are as I can contact the association for any latest news or development in the industry or the local government. It's like buying insurance or otherwise, you may lose everything without really knowing it. A little thing like when the Majlis is coming for an inspection for the lesen and what's the requirements and documentation; each majlis may have their own format and requirements which is better to know before it's too late.

The above are my sincere understanding and suggestion if you agree.

This post has been edited by West Wing: Aug 11 2010, 02:19 PM

My friend, I never said that Having BHs @ town are illegal and I never did mentioned that we are illegal but infact we were encourage by the government many years ago but I never agree to the title or occupation as swiftlets farmers and farming not a farm as we just provide the swiftlets with a place to stay and we didn't farm the swiftlets nor do we feed them. They are free to come and go. A swiftlets hotel or sanctuary should be a better word to use and we are the provider of safe heaven for the swiftlets and nothing more.... and it's an industry or a trade, you may say........but certainly not farming as provided by me.

If Operating license is required to ensure that we comply with certain requirements and conditions should there be any and these, I believe we as reasonable people and do understand the situation need to compromised....we don't own the world but we do have a share.............and say. One thing that I don't agree is that the license fee is so high and who the authorities take us to be.....illegal immigrants or something else??????

I truly and strongly agreed with you that many problems and complaints are because of those uncooperative BH owners and we all have to bear the beating today.

This post has been edited by West Wing: Aug 12 2010, 04:42 PM

Be Happy and Stay Happy

This post has been edited by West Wing: Aug 15 2010, 05:41 PM

Thanks for the video on Rebacca's place.
It's either that her properties has plenty of insects and possible mosquitoes breeding ground and the swiftlets are having a good time or that's a really good location for a BH?

Rebacca dear, Care to sell?

As for some red nests in BH that I saw, could possible due to the mild steel sheet that some place over their ceiling to prevent theft and due to too high the humidity/ leaking of the roof that the metal become wet and oxidation occured, thus bleaching the nest into red in color. The original red nest found in our BH @ town are not fully red as some part of the nest remain brown or lighter red unlike the uniform red nests found in the market.

That's what I believe and most of those Red EBN we saw in China are mainly manufactured Red Nests specialization of the Indo. You can send your brown nest there and in a week, return as red nest by paying a certain processing fee.

[quote=Cergau,Aug 23 2010, 02:26 PM]Unc WW,
The thrust of my comment was that blood nest do occur naturally.
I wasn't disputing that the uniformly red ones are may be faked by unscrupulous folks.
The original news article imply that there are no natural blood nest and even if you find some they are 'doctored' and bad for health.

Instead of educating the public to differentiate the two, it implicitly tell the public to stay away from blood nest.

As to your possible explanation...how to you explain the brownish nest in a brick building as in the pics I posted?
Maximus? unlikely, I recall Maximus builds white nests with lots of feathers rendering the whole nest black..but you can see the white in between the feathers.
I am not relying on any documents or secondary source of info...these shots were received 1st hand and the sender fren didnt even notice the non white nests until I pointed it out.
I am convinced, blood nest do occur naturally. If recollection serves me well, there was a write up (dun recall where now) that speculated it's the difference in the food source or the water in their feeding ground.
The colour comes from naturally occurring minerals/polymers in their habitat that ended up in the swiftlet food chain.

I think arowana (maybe some others too) enthusiast feed their fish with prawns to bring out the colour...maybe I am wrong on this...and recollection is failing me. High levels of chitin?
Chitin is present in hard shelled (exoskeleton) insects like grasshoppers and others???

[/quote]


Bro, no dispute at all as we all know that in nature , there are Red Birdnests but there is none as beautiful and uniform as the nests we saw @ market. Redness could also due to impurities and additives like metal oxidation, or indium that the birds got from eating river insects, maybe. Just afew days ago, one of my friends show me pics. of alot red birdnest saliva base on the wooden plank in his BH. My first assumption is that his BH must be wet recently and that his ceiling must have metal sheets and these have been concurred as his timer has broken down and mist all filled up the BH the last week but he keep insisting that swiftlets that build red nest has migrated to his BH and only time will tell. And I hope that he is right and wish him well.


Oh, I forgot to add that he did told me that recently, the shits are also  red  at the location...........just maybe, from the food that they have taken....my guess only.

[/quote]

This post has been edited by West Wing: Aug 23 2010, 03:26 PM

More research should be done on the EBN color and my guess is that the color must be from what they eat and the location conditions. All factors will contribute to the color of the nests. Like if you clean you BH well, you will find that your nest is whiter then before due to lesser ammonia and dust pollution. Low mist is good but too wet if reaches the birds' flight will also cause brownish nest. Dry and clean BH will produce white but crispy thin nests. All conditions and factors play important part in the size and color of the nest. But I haven't seen red shit which my friend told me the other day and wish if someone here can confirmed seeing such red shit.

Sometime, I think that I m getting too busybody but then I care too much for the industry to keep my big mouth shut. Just that for those not a member for any association, best check it out with the V department on whether if it's a requirement or not that one has to register with the Association to get lesen for the BH or otherwise, you may missed the ship and regret later.

Please don't get me wrong cos presently, I am not in the Active Committee for any Association for that matter but just your concerned friend. No point arguing who right or wrong when your rice bowl is concerned..........as you may be the only loser. Man with principle all die long ago just like me..........losing so much for Principle and all are laughing even the lawyers if you get what I mean.... or unless you can afford to lose your town's BH for that matter.

Those who haven't register with any Association, best check it out with the V Dept/ local council on the matter and best a written reply from them in case you face difficulties in getting what you want. Like I said, the local authorities can also decide the requirements and maybe that one of the requirements by them when you apply for the lessen like in the case of a local Pejabat where the Pejabat asked for a confirmation letter from the local Association that you are a member of the Association before they process your application. Remember that Local Authorities need not synchronize with other on time and date on application or even all requirements.

As for me, I want to be fully prepared in case of any future difficulties and even set up a company in case if required. Furthermore, I see no wrong if all unite under one Association ( may it a local or Fed) to face th.e storm but that all above are only my personal opinion and spoken in good faith

As far as I know, you don't need to go thru custom so you need not pay for anything that you bought back from any state in Malaysia.


" Ask not what the country can do for you, ask what you can do for the country"

If you read the remarks from HK on the above matter, you will think that this guy is either sick or that he must be fasting too long and it get into his head to ever think of such an idea and then advice BH owners to do it.......filling pesticide into our lungs and killing us and the swiftlets, too along with all all the insects and bugs.

When being exposed, He even has the nerve to say that readers with common sense should know that the pesticide cannot be used with the humidifier; he should at the very least apologies that he make a mistake. Pity those who treat him as a teacher or grand master in the art of BHs........now, you know that you shouldn't follow him blindly ( he told you himself in his blog) and most of the time, he used you all as Guinea Pig to test his theories or ideas and then with your feedback on the subjects, he excel and improve in his abilities and knowledge in giving guidance and lecture in the art of BH.

Thanks, coolandy or otherwise, many may suffer and even die from it. Fendona is so poisonous that you even need to use glove/ mask when using it and spray low and ensure that the chemical does not come into contact with the skin.

HK, pls. do the right thing esp. during the fasting month.......apologies to your readers.

Interesting! Are we using the right tweeters or even sound for that matter?

Or do we really need any sound or tweeters to ensure that the birds build nests which is what we are looking forward to?

Let me give you a case history....which of course is mine. This BH of mine is flooded due to an over flooding of the blocked water chute and cause the rain water to flowed in the ceiling of my BH causing alot of damages; maggi type of nests and a wet electrical board which caused the main fuse to blowed.

So, the Bh was without any electricity and since I never like to allow people into my BH for security reason, therefore, I rather wait for the electricity board to dry out by itself and that take approximate 6 months and since then, this BH of mine is without any sound or humidifier working and walau, this six months has seem the most increment of nests in the history of this BH. Since then, even the electricity is back to normal, I still do not use any sound for that BH and only use humidifiers. The serious problem with the BH is that most of the nests in the BH now become alittle brownish due to contamination from the rain water.

This tell me that sound or mist may not increase your nests but just that it attract birds to visit your BH and play but to stay and make nest, it is another matter and I don't think it concern with the sound or mist but the quality of the nests surely depend on the conditions of the BH.

My little experience to share with friends.

You are right...the sound make the swiflets feel at home and once they feel safe, they will start their family by building a nest........by looking at the shit below will tell you if the bird is still scare or not.

BH with alot of birds meaning nests need no sound exp at night cos the original sound produce by the birds is better than the artificial sound you play and at time, we may even scare the birds off with the sudden on or off sound from our amp.
Try entering the BH in the middle of the night and you will hear their original bird call.

Just say thru my experience from day one
1. Town BHs shouldn't use night sound at all as the sound will disturb your kind neighbours. Be considerate and understanding to the needs of our neighbors inless your BH is free from people staying there.
Technically, it is good to have low internal sound during the night as it will make the bird feel safe and confidence to make nests. secondary, if there is no sound during the night and suddenl;y, in the morning, your tweeters start to blast and all the birds will panic and rush out of the BH but try sleeping next to a BH during the night and you will understand why so many complaints about the BH's disturbances esp.during the night.
I never use night sound for my BH @ town cause I care and do appreciate their understanding and support for the BHs. At least, I don't want them to be anti BH; if not pro BH but at least be neutral about us then our battle is half won. To give you confidence, my BHs are successful without the night sound. "I preach what I do" unlike my consultants or so all friends giving solution that they don't even know why or didn't done it or tried out or just heard so.

At agriculture land, use internal sound all the time but never too many tweeters as I have seem hundreds of tweeters in some BH ( my personal view) as this will not be helpful and good for the development of your BH but on the contrary. At agriculture land, there are alot of unwelcoming sound outside and so, good internal sound is definitely a good way to give sense of confidence and safety.....a feeling that they are in a huge family of birds.

Swiftlets get excited when hearing your bird call and investigate and that's good and so, as I always tell my friends, never change the sound when the good is stull going and only do change when we find the birds is no longer interested in our music and require a new sound to ensure their returning to our BH. To stay or not is still another matter entirely.

My opinions and views to share with friends here. Your view on the above subject will be appreciated.

This post has been edited by West Wing: Sep 4 2010, 10:42 AM

Dear friend,

I think that I need to answer your questions one at a time and point by point lah

If you are getting what you are getting now, so what more do you need as you are already very good by the present standard, 80 nests in 15 months and still growing so why ask how and why? Continue what you are doing and only do the needful when needed.

2. actually how many tweeters should i put into my BH per floor???? size 20FX80F BH ,3 storey.

Answer: same answer, let it be as you are doing well as no one can really and sincerely tell the correct answer as there is none. Only can say is too many tweeters can do no good and too few has no effect .......be contented with what you have.

3. how can i distinguish that i should change my internal and external sound??? i use them 1 year already, should i change new sound???
Answer: Why change if the good is still running. Even if you have a good run for 5 years, why change as 5 years of good run will get you like a few thousand nests???????

4.if i change the external sound ,how i distinguish my swiftlet my bird still will come back to my bh sleep??

Answer: Normally, What yours is yours ( only during desperate situation will the old ones change home like we human) and only the new ones are the problem as they may just dislike your BH and go to another BH in the vicinity.

5. b4 i change the sound got 80bird, after change sound,also same with 80bird.
but sometimes i found that the bird decrease 2-5days,after that increase again ,like up and down the number of bird come back my BH....why????what the reason??sometimes found that 1hundred above come back for few days only..is it ok??or got problem????? notworthy.gif thanks

Ans: What you see coming in also include birds visiting your BH so they are not all yours. Also, what the most importance of all is the amount of nests. Even for your birds, not all will return everyday.........so, your counting of daily numbers cannot decide on your BH success. When you change the external sound, your aim it to get more birds visiting your BH and if there is no improvement or increment of bird entering your BH, then your changing of sound isn't successful as old birds will return even you play MJ songs over your tweeters. Watch out only the new fledged birds which is important to you and not the old ones which will remain faithful to your BH, their home and not you.

6. and one problem is the marking nest still is marking nest...they dun continue make nest after 1month already,is it got problem???that mean they dun come back make the nest again??what should i do???thanks

Ans: If you haven't make any serious repair or modification like sound changes in the nesting room over your BH, they will start very soon. One advice to you is why change internal sound if your old one has been successful as you need not change internal good sound as they are to make the birds feel at home which you have successful did at the first try. Only the external sound need to change when the good time start to go bad ie when the increment is not as expected.

Hope that the forum agree with what I said and I wish to hear any disagreement so that we all learn esp me.

SELAMAT BERPUASA and SELAMAT HARI RAYA to our all our muslin friends.

Oh Bro, you really surprised me if you can tell that you have 80 birds today and now you have short of afew birds. I only can tell by the number of nests and shits patches on the floor. I can only see if many birds are returning to my Bh or not but can't tell if I am afew short or more.

Sorry if what you are saying is birds and not nests cos if only birds and not nests then you have serious problems internally and need to observe very carefully to where your mistakes are if any......

Rules Of Having successful BH

If you can attract birds to enter your BH and if they don't stay, you got problems with your internal settings and need to check it out. Those birds coming to check out your BH and refuse to stay, meaning that you got a good external sound but fail badly to secure their confidence to build their home there. Check out the internal sound, temperature, humidity, all disturbances including that of light and wind....all including your source of planks and even prefume if your are using it.............remember everything.

Caution!! you must solve your internal problem before your external sound becoming bored to the birds or else you will soon find that the birds ignore your BH...then it's susah time for you.

Like having excellent advertisement for your hotel and when your guests arrive but what they see, they don't like it so you should know what I meant and what needed to do. Best of luck to you and hope to hear good news from you in afew months time.........maybe tek Tarik and roti chanai celebration............to celebrate your becoming the father to many baby chicks.

The GP is already out and tomorrow, there will be a meeting to discuss the GP @ KL. Ask you local Association about the coming meeting and maybe, they will keep you informed once they return from the meeting.

Why held at this time when the traffic is at the worst and I hardly can move around the town not to mention going to KL to the meeting but I wasn't invited anyway.... anyone here attending the meeting may give some insight on the matter after the meeting.

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Added on September 6, 2010, 12:31 pmYou said that they don't make nests and yet you told us that some partially nests and some marking on the planks and what are these ...there are signs of birds preparing for nest building and unless there are disturbances, you will have nests in the marked area.

First time is the crucial time in the bird's life and it's either they do it or not. After their first batch of fledged chicks, you will be ensured of the family returning for the rest of their life, unless you make it so impossible for them to be there......like having some perfume that make the birds want to faint or die.

This post has been edited by West Wing: Sep 6 2010, 01:30 PM