When you use celebrity as an end of the line, then your line will close in real fast, for celebrity works through relationship power, and the level of their fame will be determined by how efficient their network would work.

Try choose both end of the line from some nobody, for example, one that comes from a hermit country with minimal international trade and very limited internet connection such as North Korea, to some nobody from a remote area whereby his country has no historical trade relationship with North Korea. I have no idea but lets say Liberia.

With facebook and internet connection out of the reach, the connection will be seriously hampered.

If it takes 6 degree to connect a nobody to a celebrity, would you say it takes 12 degree to connect a nobody to a nobody?

This post has been edited by Vagrant: May 7 2010, 02:54 PM

Agree.

So lets take this to another level.

From abubin's wiki link:

"A Facebook platform application named “[Six Degrees]”[dead link] was developed by Karl Bunyan, which calculates the degrees of separation between different people.[citation needed] It has over 5.8 million users (as of December 20, 2009), as seen from the group's page. The average separation for all users of the application is 5.73 degrees, whereas the maximum degree of separation is 12."

Facebook serves one of the purpose of social networking in which it connects people. With Facebook/Internet, connections were reduced, for etc, some simply befriend with people that they would otherwise would not have known from the other side of the world. Yet with the help of technology, separation could go up to 12. Even then, less than 5% of the world population have facebook account.

Another problem is that it is best if you could take kids out of the equation, for you would need to consume at least 2 nodes to connect two kids between the end of the world, which means you must establish connection between a North Korean father and a Fijian father within 3 person or less to make your argument of 6 degree separation valid for those two kids.


So for a start, here are the case:

1. A 12 year old kid, home schooled, from North Korea. no access to internet.
2. The father of the 12 year old kid, Lighthouse keeper, hereby called as A
3. The employer of A
4.-------
5. The employer of B
6. The father of the 11 year old kid, sewage cleaner, hereby called as B
7. An 11 year old kid, home schooled, from Liberia, no money for internet.


The connection here, is on the assumption that the connection is best and least through the outside world by going through their father and the employer of their father. Now try connect employer A and employer B, you have to make assumption that all possible of employer A (for lighthouse keeper in north korea and their respective employer) must know employer B ( for all the employer of all sewage cleaner in Liberia)

I choose lighthouse keeper and sewage cleaner as a demonstration of the nature of their work, you could replace it with any work that requires a huge amount of time separated from the society.

This post has been edited by Vagrant: May 7 2010, 05:15 PM

To refresh on the previous scenario:

1. the sons of the lighthouse keeper are usually home schooled due to the nature of their work
2. the sons of the sewage cleaner are usually not able to attend school due to poverty.

Coming back to topic:

North Korea have very limited trade partners, the most notable being China and south korea. Liberia do not have relation with North Korea. No ships sails to and from in between. Liberian GDP is one of the smallest in the whole world, ranking below 180th, worst than North Korea. Most of the marine equipment are owned by foreign companies for point to point trades between the nation, even south korea does not own any.

But then again, instead of lighthouse keeper, it is more relevant to introduce a north korean farmer to be more exact considering the poor status of the nation.

Again, point #3 must know point no#5 without any ships sailing in between (wait, now its a farmer). For two nation without any trade relation, it reduces physical contact to the minimum. In addition, lack of internet connection cuts virtual connection to the minimum.

There is a reason why its been called a hermit nation.

As it would demonstrate here, poverty would create barrier for social connection.

Consider the above scenario again, and try out for several other connection between the poor north korean boy with a Nepalese boy.

---

Added on May 7, 2010, 6:42 pmIt is up to you to generate assumption on this thought experiment.




At the end of the day, you could try put yourself up and create such connection with the north korean boy

Put a thought, who in your friend circle is best to be put at point no#5, and if he is fit to be on that point, did he know any person from north korea or liberia, that could comfortably connects to the 12 year old home-schooled kid at the backyard?






This post has been edited by Vagrant: May 7 2010, 06:44 PM

Not quite, it would then begs the definition of separation. Do you define a connection as any chance meeting in the street without knowing that such person had glanced a split second on you, or if connection between each degree could only be established when one knows the name of the other, whereby in your first post you mentioned friend of a friend chain.

If it is defined by friend to a friend chaining, you need not have so much of a permutations. You can start connecting to the North Korean boy right now through your friends.

To resume, Malaysia does not have diplomatic or trade relation with North Korea. Refugee is out of the question. If you happened to go to South Korea and meet one, you don't know who he was, again, there is no chain being established (unless you define chaining through any chance meeting).

And do understand that for a seclude tribe that have being living in jungle or a remote island for generations would escape from the six degree clause.


Such is the nature of the question, it is a double edged sword, while you could not let go the possibility that you could establish a six degree of separation with any living North Korean, you could not dispute the possibility that one of the mother would die while giving birth in the jungle

For you to hold the clause definitely true, you have to reject permutation of any possibility. If you accept such possibility, your clause is self-contradictory. Then renders it void.

---

Added on May 7, 2010, 10:15 pm

Lets change to a more technical approach.

Since the limit is six degree, consider the largest barrier is between nations without any trade or diplomatic relation.

We begin with North Korea and Malaysia. Since the longest must be within 6 degree, we give 3 degree of connection to each nation. Which means, there must be one person able to reach every North Korean within 3 steps and come to know a Malaysian that could connect to the whole Malaysian within 3 steps. Here internet connection is minimal to insignificant, for the low level of internet penetration in North Korea.

But since this is the longest chain, every North Korean would also be able to reach everyone within 3 steps and ditto for Malaysian.

Now as for TS, what would be your chain, to the most remote Iban or Kadazan folks and their children who never walks out of the village?

Consider the max is 2 chain for you to reach their children, do you know any North Korean? If you do, you could be the head of the chain to North Korea to establish the six degree chain. If you do not, you have to rely on another chain, which makes it a total of 4 chain in Malaysia for a total, and requires the whole nation in North Korea to establish connection within 2 steps. Read, the whole nation to establish all connection to your next chain in 2 steps. This practically renders every North Korean boy to know every North Korean adults.

Now what is your chain?

This post has been edited by Vagrant: May 7 2010, 10:20 PM

Not quite my friend, this is likely the fallacy of the shortest chain. For the clause to be plausible, the longest chain must not be more than 6 degree. that said, you manage to establish it within 4 chain, but not quite for your niece or your nephew, which then adds another chain and makes it five.

Even sad, you managed only to chained up one group, which they talk about of their relatives, and their friends, that's two chain there, less than 100 of North Korean. So you have 1 chain left for everyone in North Korea to chain up to the village kid or the refugee. That's millions of them.

The perception that you manage to chain up one group does not hold true to chain up the whole nation, read on the previous post on the chain again.

I am chained to you, that makes me no.5 also, so my son would be no.6. You just used all six degree on my end! Which means the refugee/defectors must be the last end and no more after the chain!!

Not to forget to chain the tribesman in sarawak and their children, you can't count on me. I don't know them. And yes, you need them in 1 chain.

This post has been edited by Vagrant: May 7 2010, 10:55 PM

Consider this, you have 5 chain to Obama, that makes it six from you to obama's relative, or his daughter.
How about when you have a son, what are your son's chain?
my best chance to connect to obama is through you, as i hardly know anyone else.
The result, my chain to Sasha obama or obama's relative is 7. It does not end here, I haven't consider my relatives yet, some of whom are toddler now.

Coming back to the North Korea case, since you do not know any North Korean, the longest chain in Malaysia is therefore 4, note that this has to be the longest chain, you must not have any chain longer than 4, or any other malaysian which do not have known any north korean should not have longer than 4 in succession.

Which comes to 2 chain left for you to connect any North Korean, thus renders any toddler in North Korean to know all North Korean adults. This is easily disproves, for the limit of time and geographical constraint, all toddler in North Korea are unable to connect and know all adults in North Korea.

Also note that this does not matter if any other Malaysian that have a chain of 2 or less that could comes to connect to any North Korean would save this case, for the longest chain is the weakest chain, in this case, you.

This post has been edited by Vagrant: May 8 2010, 10:01 AM