The profession itself is fractured with so many accountancy bodies claiming to represent their members. So a little debate in lowyat forum is not going to make matters worse.

Because there's been 8 pages of hearsay and my friend's friend said anecdotes. The external blog is where the proof of the pudding is.

This forum is also about personal experiences isn't it. I don't see what is wrong with posting personal experiences, which you now describe as heresays.

This post has been edited by Starbucki: Oct 8 2010, 12:33 PM

Unless those individuals are legion, I don't see how their personal experiences can extend to making motherhood statements about "all accounting firms", "all CPA holders", "all companies", "everyone", "all Australians" and such, or giving specific %s and ratios about who are in which position etc.

Then you should rise above all these rather than be engaged in the same game.

Which is why I asked only 1 question so far: "Source?"

And I even contributed the personal blog of CPA Australia's outgoing President which accepts readers' comments. If they were sincere about getting to the bottom of this 'issue', then this blog is an unprecedented opportunity to make themselves heard at the highest possible levels and have the results made public to everyone reading this thread.

Going forward, commenting on this person's blog would be good.

However, from what I read in this thread, the bone of contention is that the CPA(Aust) exam is a 'joke' in that it is a four-choice MCQ and open-booked examination. There is no doubt that there are some very smart students who aced in their undergrads before undertaking this exam. There were also sniggers that even some blindfolder kacang putih seller can pass. We cannot change nor deny the fact that this exam is less rigorous than the others.

My point is that the standards of the CPA (Aust) exam is not up to the expectations of many people in this forum. I feel that the critics only want everyone to agree with this point. I doubt they meant to ridicule the holders of CPA(Aust) per se, but rather would accord them more respect if they went on to do their ICAA rather than flaunting their CA(M) and CPA(Aust) statuses.

Let me just say that I personally know many CPA (Aust) members and they are very nice people.

Nor do I. But let's think laterally. It's well accepted that STPM is just about the hardest pre-U program that you can do. But does that alone make it more valuable than A-Levels, Matriculation (local, South Australian), Year 12, SATs, Canadian Pre-U (CPU)?

In fact, everyone accepts that Pre-Us are simply about getting admission into university. And as such, STPM, being the hardest and most time consuming program, is seen as what you would do only if you have no other choice. And some STPM leavers act exactly as the few chaps in this thread. Angry and indignant that they took the hardest path while others took the easy way out.

What is a professional qualification if not a qualification that gets you qualified as a certain professional?

But that's the thing. It is not their expectations that matter. It is the expectations of the national regulatory bodies and other professional accounting outfits that matter. As long as the official/formal recognition of CPA Australia from its peers stands, there is nothing to argue about, imo.

And it's not "many people in this forum". It's the same few guys who post the same thing again and again. A couple of them have their LYN entire post count coming just from this thread.

This post has been edited by seantang: Oct 8 2010, 03:34 PM

STPM lives up to its name as the toughest pre-U programme only if it succeeds in moulding its graduates into successful people. That is what the critics are similarly trying to establish here i.e. how many successful CPA (Aust) grads there are. This example you gave is not divergent from what people are trying to establish about the CPA(Aust) programme in this thread.

With regards to getting qualified as a professional, it does make a difference on the route it takes to get there. Simple example: would you go to a medical doctor who graduated from UM or one from UKM? Would you go to a specialist who only had his exposure locally via a masters programme or one that got it through fellowship of royal college of surgeons? Of course you can say that one can take the easiest way to achieve his ends, but you cannot deny the fact that the public has every right to exercise their discretion in evaluating such matters.


There is nothing to argue if it does not matter to you. As I have illustrated in the STPM and medical doctor example above, you cannot stop people from questioning or exercising their judgement. That's my opinion.

STPM is the toughest program. That's it. It's tough. Success is not predicated on the level of difficulty, nor is difficulty a predictor or requirement for success.

So CPA Aust's objective assessment is easier for those who've lived a life of rote learning and are less adept at answering subjective questions. So?

This is a better argument but what has been established so far about how many successful CPA Aust holders there are (or there aren't, as the case may be) - apart from the rants of a few?

Which brings me back to my original question to the statistics quoted: "Source?"

Another valid argument but again... where is the evidence that people are shying away from CPA Aust holders?

Source?

There are a few in this thread that have personal anecdotes about how CPA Aust are pariahs. But I have my own anecdote derived from 12 years in a MNC finance dept that is 3,000 strong globally, 3 years in 2 Big4s and before that, 4 years of studying and working in Melbourne... I simply don't see what they see. In fact, if you come to my current employer with more than the usual 3 years experience, CPA Aust is preferred over CA because CA is seen as being too rigid, focused on bean counting and too ingrained by the accounting firm culture to adapt.

So, back to square one... source?

Of course, every individual can choose to believe what they want. Which is why you don't see me responding to those statements that specifically state one's own thinking and preference. I have only responded to those where certain individuals claim to represent the entire countries of Australia & Malaysia or the entire accounting profession, or claim to be acquainted with friends of their friend who apparent represent the countries of Australia & Malaysia or the entire accounting profession.

This post has been edited by seantang: Oct 8 2010, 04:44 PM

seantang,

Despite all that is written, you chose to retreat to your well-worn retort of asking for sources. You still cannot grasp the concept that it is people's opinion that we are talking about. And these are the sources we are talking about. Why don't you quote me your sources on why you find your nasi lemak tasty?

As you do not, with the concepts of credibility and veracity.

If I said find this nasi lemak tasty, I am the source. If I said that all accountants find this nasi lemak tasty... would you not ask me for a source? Or would you regard me as representative of all accountants' opinion?

Exactly my point. I did not claim anything other than giving my opinion and hence have no reason to quote sources. You finally understood. I'm happy for you.

Erm, I think seantang was asking white knight to quote his sources, not u XD

What about ICAA- they are member of GAA *better than CPA rite

Well, in big4, news has been going around that ppl say cpa aust is just like photocopy professional cert. so far none of my friend failed it. i am looking to know someone fail. it seems like no one fail and no standard at all.

FOR those who have never been to aust and did an australian offshore degree, please note that all big4 in aust requires u to do CA instead of CPA. meaning to say, CPA is time to close down even the local big4 urges their employee to take CA.

for those who love their cpa so much, i strongly advise you to have a look at other professional courses. From an academic point of view ICAA is way better than CPA. Besides, it is much more practical because the assessment isn't just based on a freaking final exam.

those who passed CPA and calling himself as an accountant, please hide your qualification if u met a CA (Aust). thx.

stop fighting here. please grow up.

Should anyone even take you seriously?

CPA = car park attendance. too easy.. i oso want to apply. but too late... stick my self to micpa.

It's attendant lah. With English like yours, it's ironic that you should deem anything "too easy". MICPA must be proud to have candidates of your standard.

This post has been edited by seantang: Oct 9 2010, 09:45 AM

Seantang, until now it's either you still don't understand or you refuse to accept the truth. I leave it to you.
You want sources? I have already said you can check thru all the past accountancy journals or bulletins, plenty of them & available at the public libraries. Additionally there're various prof bodies' websites or other accountancy websites, plenty of info for you to analyse.
Btw, as requested by Def, where's the Fortune 50 link? Please don't keep us waiting....

On posting the comments on Richard Petty's blog, let me explain. As the President or past president of any organisation or prof bodies, he or she would never give a bad or 'bitter' opinion concerning their own body eventhough in reality it's really really bad. The president always has the obligation to protect the body no matter how bad the situation is. Do you think the CPA President will reveal the truth in his blog by telling everyone that CPA is inferior, no value or rubbish? I don't think so, no matter how he will always try to say something sweet & nice in the blog for public review despite the fact that it's really really bad. So in conclusion, the President's view is always bias & doesn't tell the real picture.

If you read thru again Def's earlier post, in the CPA's AGM, most members voiced their unhappiness regarding the quality & standard of CPA. As aware, AGM is the most appropriate platform for members to raise their concern but unfortunately all fell into deaf ears.

One good example, look at the current Commonwealth Games (CG) in New Delhi, India. This CG is full of problems: stadium collaspes, outbreak of dengue fever, unfinished construction works, terrorist threat, dirty accomodation villages, stadiums/arenas less than 1/4 full of audiences etc etc. Yet the Chief Organiser says that this CG is the most successful games in history....what a rubbish statement. The whole world knows that this CG is the worst in history, just look at all the unresolved problems.
The same concept will apply if someone asks the CPA President to give a comment in his blog regarding the quality of CPA Program. He will give a rubbish statement.

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Added on October 9, 2010, 7:41 pmMy advise to all fresh aust accounting graduates:-

Before I start, I just need to stress again, I am member of both CPA (Aus) & ICAA.

Choosing between which prof exam to take (CPA Aus or ICAA) is a serious matter. It will decide your career path and how successful & marketability you are. If you decide to choose the easier & MCQ based option (CPA), you're robbing yourself of a successful accountancy career. If you choose the tough & difficult option (ICAA) you're on your way towards a flourish & successful career. Def, Starbucki, Violin & me have made it loud & clear and this is the most we can do to help & explain to you.

Unfortunately, Seantang & his 'allies' are trying to ruin it and I don't understand why they want to mislead all the fresh graduates.

This is your career & the choice is in your hand to decide...choose wisely.


This post has been edited by White Knight: Oct 9 2010, 07:41 PM

You do not have a monopoly on the truth.

I do keep abreast of the profession and I have come across no statistics whatsoever resembling what you have quoted in this thread. And as I said, I've even Googled to see if there are others like you. And there aren't. In short, either you are lying about the stats, or the rest of the world is.

I said that a Fortune 50 MNC pays full ACCA holders without degrees a technician's salary. Unlike the statistical arguments you've put forward (for which I'm demanding the source), this is not a statistic, it's not a pie chart, it's not an analysis. It's a company's compensation policy. Are you waiting for a public link to the company's internal pay policies?

This is a lame excuse. You put your evidence forward. He puts his evidence forward. Other readers of the blog will have their comments. Everyone sees all sides of the story and draws a conclusion for themselves. Is that not what raising awareness is?

You expect us to believe that Def (or is Def also you, White Knight?. Both of you have similarly low post counts comprising entirely of posts in this thread only) had the guts to say something in person at the AGM but not to say the same in a blog? Maybe Def can remind Richard Petty in his blog, of what transpired during the AGM. Richard Petty will be unable to deny that, won't he?

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Added on October 9, 2010, 9:21 pmWhy are you still paying the annual subscription if it's so worthless? Aren't you contradicting yourself?

This is absolutely true.

That's why they should do their own research. At your university's career fair, ask the employers what the difference to them is and how that will make a difference to your career. The important thing is to ask the employers. Ask the hiring managers. Ask the CFOs or finance directors. Ask the recruiters and headhunters. Ask the decision makers.

Go join Linkedin. There are lot of experienced finance professionals there you can connect to. They are usually the real deal, not some nobody LYN forumer with 11 posts.

Go browse efinancialcareers.sg. It's one of the better websites (although a bit heavy on banking) where the jobs are actually fairly senior finance jobs (ie. >US$100,000 per annum). See what the hiring companies ask for. Do a search for "CPA Australia" and see what kind of jobs pop up. Do a search for "ICAA" or "ACCA" and see what kind of jobs pop up. Search for different jobs like CFO, Finance Director, Financial Controller, Business Analyst, SP&BA etc. (for banks, AVP/VP/SVP for Product Control) and see what the requirements are.

Got to Forbes.com and take down the list of Fortune 200 global and Fortune 50 US companies. Go to their websites and 99% of the time, there is a careers section. There will be an email address there. Email them and ask.

Ask the regulatory bodies and professional associations who they recognise. You can go to their websites for this. These are the chaps that allow or disallow you to enter the profession. Nobody's opinion matters more than theirs.

Don't depend people who are solidly for or against something. Listen to people to who ask you to seek the truth, rather than those who insist on forcing their version of the truth on you.

Actually I'm stopping you from misleading them. In fact, I'm not even (mis)leading them to anything apart from sources of information and methods of research.

This post has been edited by seantang: Oct 9 2010, 09:29 PM