ok, so answer this then.
what strength's does lucas have?

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Added on December 15, 2009, 12:53 pmthis has been happening in every single match so far, not just the arsenal game.

This post has been edited by Everdying: Dec 15 2009, 12:53 PM

at least our malaysia team did a great job.. still patah hati wit liverpool performance..

passing back and sideways. He's not that intimidating than Mascherano either.

It's not luck Lucas able to contain Ronaldo in OT last season.You can say Aurelio was there helping but why the commentators chose to praise him and not Aurelio? He was there, doing his job as a midfielder, but running to the flanks to close down Ronaldo simultaneously.

His strength? I would say it's his work rate.

Known not for his goal scoring record ,he still attracted the interest of big clubs like Inter and other top spanish clubs.Why the likes of Inter want him if he is that bad as our supporters thought he is?

Let's not forget, He begun his career as attacking midfielder, not a defending midfielder.Rafa opted to change him into a defending midfielder,believing that his work rate will somehow benefits the team.The result, however, reflects otherwise.If I'm not mistaken, Rafa only opted to switch him for defensive duty last season, which was a miserable season for Lucas.

His 1st season was good.I still remember a lot of fans were praising him and actually think that he is a good deal Rafa brought in.At the age of 20, he shown the fans he can did well despite his young age.His 1st season in a foreign league and he did well enough to win us a penalty in the derby after coming on for Gerrard.Thus, the supporters expect more from him.

However, the higher expectation of fans came at wrong time.Last season, Rafa,chose to change him into defensive midfielder.A role, Lucas never play at.A new role which requires time for him to be better.He put on miserable performance.Losing possession, tackle like sissy.I was one of those bashing and criticizing him.To add salt to injury, he conceded a late penalty, followed by a sent off in derby.He is now the scape goat.The one to be blamed for everything.

This season, the departure of Alonso, gives him the freedom to roam forward to involve in attacking.He likes to run forward.We have seen a better Lucas than last season and he has then set up a couple of goals and involves in another few that somehow contributed to the goal scored.We have also see him more often in penalty box now.He is better now.

Let's not deny he had been solid this season despite the bad results of the team.People tend to blame the bad results on Lucas but the fact is, it's Rafa's fault and not Lucas'

Like I repeatedly said before, Lucas and Mascherano are the same kind of player.Playing them together means limited creativity.Lucas, still sticking with his defensive role, as ordered by Rafa, offers little in attacking unless Gerrard is reverted back to midfielder in the match on September.

My point is, let's give him a chance to play what he is capable of, not what he is not familiar of.

For now, he might not be a good starting 11 player but he is definitely a good squad player...Who can be sure that he wont be good enuff for XII in future?A certain Darren Fletcher happened to be just squad player last few seasons and now, he seems rather important to a certain team...

did u go cut and paste?
why are they similar? masch is obviously a holding midfield, by that ur implying that lucas is also one which would mean rafa is correct in playing him as a defensive midfielder.
and september?

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Added on December 15, 2009, 2:03 pmbtw, inter wanted him? that must've been before mourinho came in and knocked some sense into the board.
lucas 1st season? he only started 12 games, so what the fans saw were just glimpses...just like this season...all glimpses of brilliance from the team...when consistency is whats needed.
lucas last season? ie. his 2nd season? 13 games started.
i bet if alonso hadnt left, lucas would've thrown in a transfer request by now.

and defensive/attacking is more to that.
if lucas is such a great attacking player, he would contribute more to set pieces, or even bring the ball up from circle to box...like what our backs do.
torres of cos is our great first line of defense.

This post has been edited by Everdying: Dec 15 2009, 02:04 PM

I can't remember which match but it was around Aug/Sept where Gerrard is reverted to CM and Lucas was playing in front of SG8.

Anyway, back to the similar part,I was actually referring them as similar because they

1.play in the same role of midfield.
2.offer little in attacking
3.can't shoot well. Definitely wont be an Essien/Daniele De Rossi
4.Good in closing down others.
5.Good stamina in running whole field for 90minutes?

That sums up what I implied earlier. Similar kind of player although Lucas' tackling is shit and Mascherano's tackling is world class.


Definitely not. To be exact, I would say Lucas is bound to Rafa's order and had his defensive role to play on.Our wingbacks go forward way too much in the sense that Lucas and Mascherano are unable to go forward too frequently , just to cover for them.Insua and Glenny, in particular, need Lucas and Mascherano's help to cover for them which is why Lucas is locked within his role and his role is similar to Masch.To defend, to win ball, to retain possesion and to cover up for Glenny, Insua, Agger, Skrtel when they go forward(set pieces included where Agger and Skrtel went forward) He's locked and it's not like that's what he is best at.

You don't need 2 DM in every match.

This post has been edited by solstice818: Dec 15 2009, 02:30 PM

so based on those 5 points, what then makes lucas an attacking midfielder for liverpool?

what liverpool needs is another player with vision, able to spot the spaces that Torres and co will run into or even pass into.
currently, the only player that can read Torres runs is of cos Gerrard and vice versa...and to a certain extent Aurelio.
if u compare to the teams of old, Rush always had support from the likes of Souness, Molby, Dalglish who were all always looking for spaces to pass into that they know Rush will be there once they release the ball.
so u can see what we're missing, which Lucas obviously cant fill and hopefully Aquilani will.

barking on wrong tree???? .if what you meant is we are not allowed to discuss or debate about Lucas here....i disagree ...everyone has a right to debate any players in the red shirt...as long as we dont insult them...

secondly, there is always both sides of the story when it comes to Lucas and perhaps even Rafa..

I think the original poser was just lamenting on the fact that once we lost Alonso and try to play with Lucas in the first 11, we missed some of the attributes Alonso offered..
but then, by gones are bygones and there is really no point making too much noise of what Alonso used to offer....there is no changing that now....unless Liverpool discover an identical player...which is almost impossible

then...we go back to well discussed and debated question if Lucas is what Liverpool need for now...by trying to complement him with Masch, are we sacrificing a very important element which allow Liverpool to be more dangerous and threatening when they launch an attack...From what i know...every single English First Division/EPL winning team is blessed with midfield players equipped with vision... to launch a devastating move...

This post has been edited by nando: Dec 15 2009, 02:42 PM

no, no, don't get me wrong - it is the constant Lucas bashing that i do not understand. lucas crap, lucas sucks blah blah blah.

yet few blame Rafa for sticking with Lucas. it's rafa's bloody incompetance that we are stil struggling to use a system that was tailor made to Alonso's rather unique abilities.

at times, it almost seems that the midfield has no clue how to get the ball to our forwards. it's pitiful viewing, really.

as for his strengths, i always believe that of all our players, Lucas embodies the pass and move mentality most, short simple passes and quick movement into space, iirc that was what he was about when he first joined us. only the coaching staff will know why he's gone backwards.

I cant deny that Lucas doesn't have the vision to make smart passes and through ball but in recent games, he showed us he can actually came at the right place when he is needed.I remember seeing him at the right place where attacking midfielders like Benny and Kuyt should be.Also, I have seen him running through the flanks, beating defenders, arrived in the penalty box, back passed it to Gerrard who was also in penalty box only for the latter to screw up and missed the chance to score( Forget which match but I remember his running..Superb run).

He has the sense/instinct of an attacking midfielder to come at the right place,involving in attacks, his shots are poor though.

Let's not forget, his tackles are poor.Sissy tackles, girlish header in our penalty box.He is not meant for defensive duty although his work rate and closing down are suggesting otherwise.I would like to see him going forward.Maybe a Lucas- Aquilani combo isn't that bad eh? They can take turn going forward.Most of Aquilani's long shots goals for Roma actually came from the role where he is behind an AM.His role is more like a central midfielder and not an AM.

Btw, speaking of clever passes and vision to spot spaces, We actually had 4 choices for now.

1. Benny
2. Stevie
3. Aurelio
4. Agger

And if you include Aquilani, it would make it 5.

The problem is, Rafa prefer to play Benny on flanks.Aurelio is inconsistent in that role,remember the match he screw up for us when he played as mid this season ?Stevie is more like a striker than anything else. Agger is of course, sticking with his CB position.

This post has been edited by solstice818: Dec 15 2009, 03:02 PM

if you're from the pass and move era of Dalgish management, i remembered in a very old issue of SHOOT magazine how Steve McMahon used to say they spend most of their training under Dalglish playing five a sides....just sharpening their passing and movement

if i read your post correctly, you want Lucas play as AM right? and Gerrard as Midfield.. i have said it before in one liner post (that duke almost angry about one liner.. hehehee) ...what wondering me now, why Rafa like to change players actual role like Kuyt, who was a striker before he came to Liverpool, and play him as a winger ? YES, I agree if Rafa see Kuyt was good at that position, and after he play as winger, he can give some/big impact to the team....

what if not? still play him there? still BELIEVE he can be good like beckham? Punalan? (hehehe)....till what extend? 1 years? 2 years? ...so this is the things that Manager should think...revert back where should he play and find someone that was good in that position.....same story here about Lucas...play him as AM...i believe he was good as an AM...

so, my point here, Rafa like to change his player role, AM to DM, Striker to Winger....anyone can show me who others manager do the same thing like Rafa?

p/s: Babel also...Striker to LM...

Babel used to play LM for Ajax too if I'm not mistaken.

As for Kuyt, I do think that he plays better on right flank instead of in front of goals because he offers more there.His recent form is terrible though and I start to think that age might have catch up on him.

the problem is theres no one suitable on the right cept for kuyt
benny, babel seems to prefer cutting it from left to right for the shot rather than passing from the right.

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Added on December 15, 2009, 3:36 pmbill shankly with emelyn hughes, bob paisley with ray kennedy.
see, now thats an effective one-liner

This post has been edited by Everdying: Dec 15 2009, 03:38 PM

but but but.... johnson gets upfield faster to put in the cross from his defensive position than kuyt from the halfway line

edit: damn, what happened to my grammar!

This post has been edited by madmoz: Dec 15 2009, 06:04 PM

Lucas is our new Igor Biscan isn't he? Both were played out of position and they responded by playing like crap. Both have heart and both were wanted by top European sides. Both get on with their respective jobs with no complains.

arsenal just got lucky that night.. and most of our players just returned from injury (torres,gerrard,benny) , need to recover their form

we could have won like 5-2 hands down .. but glenny's OG was shocking as hell lol

This post has been edited by reiben05: Dec 15 2009, 04:08 PM

If not mistaken, I hadn't seen Babel in Ajax, but some forumers posted he was playing 4-3-3 system which he is on left on the front.

we should drop kuyt, he lack of pace, creativity, dribbling skills and one touch ability. The only run and work like a cow. We able to bring johnson as his position and degen/darby backup him like wad aurelio doing now. Lucas is great for me but inconsistent. if elzhar is fit, bring him and fit into right flank. for me pacheco is great but rafalution will nvr play him for now. Rafa magic is gone. he is no longer last season rafa.

This post has been edited by RyanHo: Dec 15 2009, 04:24 PM

so yea.
Astro CH812.
THU 03:55am (L)Liverpool vs. Wigan