Guys,

Why are you all acting so pleased when you don't have to get a new dish or wiring? You really have lost!

Firstly, indirectly you have actually paid for the new dish but most importantly the new dish and LNB give about a 6db stronger signal that the old dish! I have checked this for myself!

The new dish is an entirely new model, it looks different and performs a whole lot better.

If you have an old dish there will be occasions when you will loose signal due to rain... I had my dish changed so I will continue to watch while you have nothing!!!! Going back to my university maths, 6db extra signal strength is about 170% stronger!

Do not keep your old dish!

Also, the more joins or splits in the wire the worse the signal, if the installer connects to your internal cable you will loose signal strength... that is certain!

If you do not get your dish upgraded and you insist on using your existing cable then never ever complain about rain fade... you could have had it (almost) fixed!

The communal system problem is not just an upgrade of the dish! If it was do you not think Astro would fix it!

To get technical... The Measat 3a satellite transmits its Ku band signal on the high frequency range, Measat 3 (the older satellite which has the SD service) is on the low frequency band!

For your B.yond media box to receive the high frequency range it has to switch the LNB frequency, it does this by sending a 22khz tone to the LNB back along the cable. The LNB can only receive high OR low frequency. This is also the same for switching polarity between Vertical OR Horizontal, to do this the decoder uses a 13v or 18v signal to switch the LNB.

This switching is called DiSEqC 1.0, for full details go to http://www.eutelsat.com/satellites/pdf/Dis...cs/bus_spec.pdf

a DiSEqC 1.0 LNB and decoder has 4 modes these are:-

13v = Vertical and Low Frequency Range
18v = Horizontal and Low Frequency Range
13v + 22khz tone = Vertical and High Frequency Range
18v + 22khz tone = Horizontal and High Frequency Range

The upside of this is that if wired correctly the Astro B.yond media box can receive signals from even more satellites, in the same position, than just Measat 3 or Measat 3a.

If you are on a communal system then you can only receive the low frequency, Measat 3, signal as there is only a single feed from the dish this is permanently set to 13v only, Vertical Low Frequency Range.

For an Astro B.yond Media Box to receive both Measat 3 and Measat 3a it must be free to switch the LNB to any mode it wants, for this it needs its own dedicated feed or at least think it has it's own dedicated feed.

Up until now Astro has always been restricted to the Vertical polarity of Measat 3 because all communal systems and homes with more than one box connected to one dish cannot switch between DiSEqC 1.0 modes.

My brother in Italy had this problem 8 years ago with his satellite service and they had to install a Quattro LNB and multiswitches in his apartment. A Quattro LNB has 4 feeds coming out of it, one permanently set to each DiSEqC 1.0 mode. The Quattro LNB is then connected to a multiswitch using 4 wires, this multiswitch can have up to 16 decoders attached. Each decoder connected to the multiswitch then "thinks" it had its own LNB, free to switch between any mode.

The problem with Quattro LNB's and Multiswitches is that they need 240v electrical power, loose a lot of signal strength and the single wire from the LNB down the building has to be replaced by 4 wires, this makes it a major rewiring and testing job! My brother had 4 weeks of them working in his apartment to rewire it and ended up with a worse signal but more channels!

If you look in the Astro B.yond manual it says that you cannot use splitters to give signals to more than one decoder. If you did, any decoder receiving a HD channel will signal the LNB with 22khz and switch it to the high frequency range (Measat 3a), at that point any decoder receiving SD on the low frequency range (Measat 3) will loose signal totally!

Easy! For Astro to fix the communal system problem they have a lot of rewiring to do in each block and install some complex equipment I only hope they fix the signal strength problem as more channels with less strength is no good here in Malaysia.

Search in google for "LNB Multiswitches" and "quattro LNB".

This LNB DiSEqC mode switching was a global problem for all satellite broadcasters, I just think Astro is the last to fix it!

Please see my previous post on DiSEqC 1.0 switching, ANY IF splitter causes a problem! Its nothing fishy, just the way it works and its the only way to increase satellite capacity beyond Measat 3.

Two totally different satellites. If you look at the Measat website it tells you all about them.

http://www.measat.com/satellite_91e_measat3_ku.html
http://www.measat.com/satellite_91e_measat3a_ku.html

Measat 3 has 24 Ku band transponders but I don't know how many Measat 3a has, Measat 3 transponders all broadcast in the low frequency range and Measat 3a transponders are all in the high frequency range.

Astro has 12 transponders on Measat 3 and only 1 in use on Measat 3a, I assume that they will put the next HD channels they promised on Measat 3a.

For the full listing of Measat 3 see http://satcodx3.tele-satellite.com/0915/eng/. Measat 3a is so new that it is not yet listed.

BTW: the other 12 Ku band transponders on Measat 3, all the horizontal ones, are pointed at India. see http://satcodx3.tele-satellite.com/0917/eng/

You are right, one solution would be to put all the HD channels on the same satellite as the SD channels, but that would mean removing 4 SD channels for every 1 HD channel. So with the proposed 15 channels they would have to kill off 60 SD channels!

This is why they had to launch a new satellite!

To "fix" the problem you either need one dish for every decoder or a system made up of multiswitches.

I just did a quick google (just for you!) and came across http://communaltv.sky.com/communalTvOptions.aspx. In the UK they also have this problem and it looks like Sky have set up a separate company to solve the "problem".

I imagine Astro will adopt a similar approach, you need to get your building management to speak to Astro.

A bit more googling also shows the same problem in Australia, Foxtel have published their solution at http://www.citt.com.au/foxtel/info/Documen...Manual_v8.5.pdf and it is also on their blogs http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-repli...cfm/455029.html.

It appears that they call a block / condo a MDU (Multiple Dwelling Unit).

You should ignore the bitrate, this is either a worst case or average. Typically satellite broadcasters use statistical multiplexing to share the total available bitrate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_multiplexing).

This means that a listing of 2Mbits/s could peak at 8Mbits/s and get as low a 2Mbits/s, depending on the action on screen. You often see a deliberate mix of channels on a transponder to share the action, a transponder full of sport would look terrible whilst a mix of sport and documentaries would look better.

MPEG 4 is at least 4 times more better than MPEG 2 so a 1 Mbit/s MPEG 4 is as good as a 4 Mbit/s MPEG 2.

A VCD is on a 1.150 Mbits/s fixed bit rate MPEG 2 whilst a DVD is on a variable bitrate MPEG2 up to 5 Mbits/s. VCD as a result struggle to cope with any action on screen whilst a DVD will only struggle with a sustained action sequence of many minutes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_CD

Yes, Satcodx is a site ran by enthusiasts so it is only as up to date as the team keep it.

Most data is auto scanned by a PC with a satellite card and the data posted online when changes occur. Looking at the data it looks as though the person doing the autoscan is in Indonesia this could indicate two reasons as to why Measat 3a is not listed.

1. The Measat 3a footprint is very closely aligned with Malaysia, they may simply be outside the footprint.
2. The equipment is usually in someones home and the individual scanning Measat 3a could be in a communal feed building. In this case their equipment would never see Measat 3a for the same reasons that Astro B.yond cannot be installed. (See my previous post)

Even with missing data, the site is very useful....

The date of the scan is quite obvious due to presence of BBCE! ;-)

Depending on how and when the autoscan occurs the video bitrate will be different, from memory the SatCoDX site shows the lowest bitrate of the transmission during the autoscan period, hence the bitrates mentioned should be given little regard and will vary month on month.

Yes, but only in the same position (91.5E). Measat "own" that position in space so it is unlikely that anything other than Astro will ever appear there!

All that would happen is that you would loose Astro and get nothing. If your dish moved and by luck happened to be pointed at another satellite then you would need a box from that provider.

I think what Astro are trying to do is fix all the Astro B.yond installations so that in the future they could put more satellites in to space at the same position, giving us more channels from one dish (hopefully HD). Some satellite broadcasters have more than 5 satellites in the same position. Look at SatCoDX for Direct TV (USA) and BSkyB (UK).

The fixing of the communal systems is their only choice if we want more than the current number of channels. :stars:

To scan the channels you do not need to decrypt them and it does not follow that you can view them.

The data you see is transmitted as DVB SI (Digital Video Broadcasting Service Information), this is unencrypted and is used to describe the channels so the decoder can receive them and only then start decryption.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Video_Broadcasting

If you want do this yourself buy a PC Satellite card such as WinTV-DVB-s from Hauppage, see http://www.hauppauge.com/html/dvb_s.htm. You will be able to look at all the SI data you can eat, but able to watch nothing as these PC cards dont have any decryption at all.

My brief answers..

1. So in a centralized building/condo, everything including the cables inside the walls in each home need to be hacked and replaced? No, only the wiring that is shared, the last bit of wire from the central system to your home can remain as it is. Everything that is shared will need to be replaced.

2. When the centralized system has been upgraded, will everyone in the building still with old SD decoder will be forced to subscribe to B.yond and upgrade the decoder? As the building is rewired all existing SD decoders remain the same, they all use Measat 3 and the new upgraded system can see Measat 3 just as before. Astro B.yond media boxes will use the new centralized system to tune to Measat 3a for HD, this is whilst anyone else can remain tuned to SD on Measat 3 without problems. Remember that the Astro B.yond media box can tune to both Measat 3 for SD and Measat 3a for HD and must be able to do this independent of any other decoder, old or new, connected to the centralized system. The rewired centralized system allows each decoder to work independently as if it had its own dish. A centralized system that has not been rewired is permanently tuned to Measat 3 (on the vertical polarity only)

Ah! Unfortunately I don't know channels or anything like that. All I possibly can predict is that they will launch in batches of 5 as this is how many channels fit on one transponder.

I don't really have any inside information on this, my expertise is more on what happens once the signal has left their broadcast center and on its way to us.

I have done professional installations for nearly 20 years and helped trial many new technologies. I do have some dealings with Astro but not directly.

As a preview of what is to come look around the rest of the world! What was a surprise in their launch line up was Astro Super Sports HD, this must mean they have also installed some HD infrastructure to compile their own channel!

Also, the ESPN HD Asia feed is available nowhere else, are Astro the first to have ESPN HD Asia? I think they might be... note ESPN Asia is totally different to the rest of the world due to rights issues.

I agree, change everything, new decoder, new dish and new wires.. see my previous post... the new dish almost doubles your signal strength (especially as you cannot use splitters).

BTW: did you know that every splitter halves your signal strength, if you have 4 boxes and one dish your signal could be at one quarter the actual strength! which means more rain fade!

Wonder to know if in a single house have 2 decoder, is installer going to install the new disc direct to new HD decoder and leave the old disc to old SD decoder since new disc cannot be shared. Yes, that is exactly what they should do, two boxes and two dishes.

For an older installation of SD only decoders you can use splitters because all the decoders only need to see Measat 3 (on the low frequency range). However, every splitter will reduce the signal by 50%, this is simply laws of physics. In technical terms splitters create a parallel path for the signal, this doubles the capacitance of the cable therefore reducing the signal strength. It is always best to have one decoder to one dish.

The "device" that your installer is trying to sell you is most probably a inline amplifier. These only make the signal stronger they do not clean it up, this means that not only does the signal get stronger but any noise or interference (caused by rain) will also get strengthened. The only time you should need one is if your cable has to run for more than 20m to the decoder.

There is an alternative of using dual, quad or octo LNBs on the dish, these give 2,4 or 8 independent full signal strength outputs from the LNB, that means you can connect up to 8 decoders to one dish each with its own cable run from the dish direct to the decoder. However, I have never seen these in Malaysia and they are very expensive. For now, one dish should be connected to one decoder.

The decoder is fully auto updating, channels can appear (and disappear) without having to put the decoder in standby. One of the features is that the decoder can even take updates as programs overrun, I assume this is for the external hard drive recorder when it (eventually) arrives.

This auto updating feature is fairly common now globally and most broadcasters with a recording decoder use it to ensure you record the whole football match even when it goes to extra time :-D

The existing dish can cope with what you term as "drifting". Drifting makes it sound like it is uncontrolled, which it most certainly is not! Any geostationary orbital position is about a 75x75 mile (the UK defined this) square in which the satellite can locate itself.

Prior to the launch of Measat 3a the older satellite Measat 3 had this whole space to itself and utilized it fully! A single satellite in any orbital position is allowed to freely "drift" in the 75x75 mile square only using its boosters to stay "in the zone". The single satellite drifting saves on booster fuel, which is very limited on any satellite.

Once a second satellite is deployed the 75x75 square tends to be subdivided and a satellite is maintained within these sub divisions. This is normal and what you correctly point out in your observations.

Astra SES (not Astro) in western europe operate up to 7 satellites in the same orbital position, for this they have to tightly control their position but do so with a normal sized dish.

The new dish and LNB, compared to the old one, is about 6db stronger on both satellites, with each satellite being allowed to "drift" in its own zone. The Measat 3 signal has not changed since Measat 3a was launched.

Dish and LNB designs are continually improving, when I started in this industry a 1db noise level was good, now the LNBs have a noise level of 0.1db, a ten fold improvement.

Astros new dish looks better designed for Malaysia being almost round and the improvements are simply better technology. This better technology will certainly give better rain fade resistance.

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Added on December 20, 2009, 10:59 pmAh! I also attempted to explain this in my previous post. http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...post&p=30688362

This post has been edited by AstInst: Dec 20 2009, 10:59 PM

Astro have had uplink site diversity for some years now and they switch uplinking between their Bukit Jalil site and their Cyberjaya site, this would give a 50% reduction in rain fade based on a single site system.

Uplink power control is only used at the uplink when site diversity is not present, basically turn up the power when it rains! Astro do not need this as they have the site diversity.

The new Astro B.yond dish is larger and the LNB is improved, the combination of the two will give about 170% improvement (6db).

Hydrophobic coating on dishes is only useful in snow, it has zero effect on rain. I did an install in Switzerland some years ago and all the dishes were coated. Here in Malaysia Hydrophobic coating is useless. The coating will repel water, which may mean you have 0.1mm of water on your dish as opposed to 0.2mm, but it is the 1km of falling water between the satellite and the dish that is the problem!

The two biggest factors in rain fade are badly aligned dishes and RF splitters. In Malaysia I have seen dishes that are visibly incorrect, you may still get a signal but even cloud will make it fade! Splitters are the worst thing in the world, I have done many VIP installations and Astro insists on one dish per decoder, no splitters... they do this for a reason, rain fade. When any Astro installer comes to fit a decoder (SD or B.yond) you have the right to as for a one dish one decoder installation!

The third biggest factor on rain fade is joins in the cable, every join causes a loss of signal. I have seem some installers twist connections together. If you have to join two cables then use F type connectors, these are designed to give minimum loss.

This post has been edited by AstInst: Dec 21 2009, 01:15 PM

My analysis of Astros signal (using a PC card) shows their HD is running at 8Mbits/s with another 1Mbits for Audio.

Before anyone starts comparing bitrates, Astros system will be new, their encoders are new and the decoder in your home is new. Over the years I have seen HD run at up to 18Mbits/s but this was on a 1st generation encoder and decoder. Like all technology encoding gets better all the time. There has been a big debate in the UK as the BBC has reduced their bitrate from 18Mbits/s to 8Mbits/s.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/200...d_a_respon.html

The BBC state that there has been no drop in quality and the improvements were due to better encoders.

In the USA they were early to adopt HD, some say too early, as they have had to use MPEG2 in HD which is very bandwidth inefficient. This bandwidth constraint has lead to "HD Lite" being developed, basically its HD, but only just!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Lite

At the moment Astro's HD channels are at a fixed bitrate, this means each channel had a guaranteed bandwidth to maintain quality. The alternative is statistical multiplexing (or variable bitrate) which allows channels to share capacity. Astro would struggle to do this at the moment due to the fact that 2 out of the 5 HD channels are sport, for statistical multiplexing to work the more mixed the channels the better.

Dont look at TM to delivery any bigger bitrate difference to Astro, they are governed by the same constraints. They have two bandwidth restrictions, the backbone of their network and the bitrate in to your home. If TM had 100Mbits in to your home and a HD channel was running at 10Mbits/s then a digital video recorded would eat 20Mbits, if you had two of them then 40Mbits would be gone! Therefore TM will also have a squeeze on their HD bitrates.

Where Digital Satellite operators have a benefit over IPTV operators is that the "backbone" (the satellite feed) comes in to the home, as a quick bit of maths Astro will have about 800Mbits/s of capacity coming in to your home!

In my experience Astros HD channels are among the best in the world in terms of quality, certainly better than the USA. If the stick to the 5 channels per transponder then we will be fine :D

There is no broadcaster in the world broadcasting in 1080p, it uses too much bandwidth and there is no agreed standard. DirectTV in the USA has 1080p but only for downloaded over broadband content not broadcast over satellite.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p - quote from the page:

There has been some research on 1080p, but mostly at a reduced frame rate which kind of makes it pointless. The industry is waiting for better encoders and an agreed standard.

If you wanted Astro to wait for 1080p then HD would have been at least 2 years away and the decoder so expensive they would have to charge you for it and each channel so expensive to broadcast they would be charging 20 bucks per channel! As this price they would "sell" less of them and the lucky few would be paying a fortune! I know which I would choose!

As I said in another post the HD Astro is broadcasting is one of the best in the world that I have seen (and I have seen hundreds!), the USA is the worst as it is MPEG2 HD!

On my Astro B.yond media box at home I have a great HD picture and the SD looks better than before thanks to the aspect ratio handling and that fact that the SD shows the full overscan (giving about 30% more picture).

For best results on your TV turn off all the features, use no picture enhancement, turn down the saturation (my friends LG shipped in "vivid mode" it looked terrible) and switch off any 100hz or 200hz modes. Astro has spent millions of bucks delivering HD and it is the best it can be as they transmit it, there is no clever electronics in your TV that will make it better... will a $10 chip in your TV improve a picture that has been through a multimillion broadcast center ran by experts? I doubt it!

Yes, MPEG 2 with zero compression looks fantastic, but in the USA they have to compress to 2 HD channels per transponder using MPEG 2 on DVB-S, this limits them to about 18Mbits, which does look terrible!

(technically MPEG 2 can be a pure I frame sequence, at which point it is like a stream of full frame jpeg photos, looks amazing but you need 200Mbits/s for that, this is mostly used in HD production and digital cinema)