Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

Science Climategate, Issues and Consequences

views
     
TSDeniseLau
post Dec 2 2009, 01:18 AM, updated 16y ago

Casual
***
Junior Member
324 posts

Joined: Mar 2008
QUOTE
Quick note before we begin:
There was another thread on this issue previously, it was started by manami but it got shut down by frags because the discussion started going into topics relating to "the new world order" and other topics relating to how "the elite are trying to impose controls on people", where these topics were deemed as conspiracy theories by frags.

I'm not saying that I agree that those topics are conspiracy theories nor am I saying that they aren't conspiracy theories, but for the purposes of this thread let's try to maintain some level-headedness and stay on topic with the issues and consequences surrounding climategate. Also if or when the discussion about Carbon Taxes or Carbon Credits arise, it would again be prudent to discuss any positive or negative issues surrounding them without invoking spin-off discussions such as a global movement by those with power to impose controls over people and industry. Doing so will bring about protracted discussions on the validity of such statements and pose a risk of derailing this topic.

So we begin.


What is Climategate?
Climategate is the latest in the series of global scandals with the suffix -gate. This time, the scandal arose when "hackers" allegedly hacked into the servers of the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia in the United Kingdom.

The hackers downloaded thousands of emails and some documents. (Note: Wikipedia claims that there were 160MB of data downloaded, but from what I know personally, there was only 61.9MB of data... I know because I downloaded it, but I don't know if what I have is complete)

Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climategate

The Documents
You can download a copy of the leaked documents if you wish from here: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=75J4XO4T
I haven't read any of it personally, I have just read snippets of it from news websites.

Why is it a Scandal?
It is apparent from the leaked documents and e-mails that some data were intentionally deleted while some processed data were skewed in favour of the supporters of Anthropogenic Climate Change (climate change due to human activity) thus discrediting other non-Anthropogenic Climate Change.

Why is This Important?
The Climatic Research Unit of the University of East Anglia is one of the high profile institutions at the core of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which itself is an organisation under the United Nations (UN).

From the leaked emails, it is found that some of the correspondents were high profile members within the IPCC and have been in the past, very influential in the final report that the IPCC issues to the UN, governments and other institutions worldwide.

Any act of fraud or doctored data and reports from this small group of highly trusted people will have vast consequences worldwide on global economic policies, national policies and even foreign relations worldwide.




To kick off the discussions, let me quote some text from
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columni...generation.html

*I realised that I've quoted large chunks of the actual article, it's better if you read the original article in its entirety first and then use the quoted sections below as references and talking points.

QUOTE
The reason why even the Guardian's George Monbiot has expressed total shock and dismay at the picture revealed by the documents is that their authors are not just any old bunch of academics. Their importance cannot be overestimated, What we are looking at here is the small group of scientists who have for years been more influential in driving the worldwide alarm over global warming than any others, not least through the role they play at the heart of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).


QUOTE
Professor Philip Jones, the CRU's director, is in charge of the two key sets of data used by the IPCC to draw up its reports. Through its link to the Hadley Centre, part of the UK Met Office, which selects most of the IPCC's key scientific contributors, his global temperature record is the most important of the four sets of temperature data on which the IPCC and governments rely – not least for their predictions that the world will warm to catastrophic levels unless trillions of dollars are spent to avert it.

Dr Jones is also a key part of the closely knit group of American and British scientists responsible for promoting that picture of world temperatures conveyed by Michael Mann's "hockey stick" graph which 10 years ago turned climate history on its head by showing that, after 1,000 years of decline, global temperatures have recently shot up to their highest level in recorded history.


QUOTE
Since 2003, however, when the statistical methods used to create the "hockey stick" were first exposed as fundamentally flawed by an expert Canadian statistician Steve McIntyre , an increasingly heated battle has been raging between Mann's supporters, calling themselves "the Hockey Team", and McIntyre and his own allies, as they have ever more devastatingly called into question the entire statistical basis on which the IPCC and CRU construct their case.


QUOTE
The senders and recipients of the leaked CRU emails constitute a cast list of the IPCC's scientific elite, including not just the "Hockey Team", such as Dr Mann himself, Dr Jones and his CRU colleague Keith Briffa, but Ben Santer, responsible for a highly controversial rewriting of key passages in the IPCC's 1995 report; Kevin Trenberth, who similarly controversially pushed the IPCC into scaremongering over hurricane activity; and Gavin Schmidt, right-hand man to Al Gore's ally Dr James Hansen, whose own GISS record of surface temperature data is second in importance only to that of the CRU itself.


QUOTE
This in itself has become a major scandal, not least Dr Jones's refusal to release the basic data from which the CRU derives its hugely influential temperature record, which culminated last summer in his startling claim that much of the data from all over the world had simply got "lost". Most incriminating of all are the emails in which scientists are advised to delete large chunks of data, which, when this is done after receipt of a freedom of information request, is a criminal offence.


QUOTE
In each of these countries (Australia and New Zealand) it has been possible for local scientists to compare the official temperature record with the original data on which it was supposedly based. In each case it is clear that the same trick has been played – to turn an essentially flat temperature chart into a graph which shows temperatures steadily rising. And in each case this manipulation was carried out under the influence of the CRU.


QUOTE
The third shocking revelation of these documents is the ruthless way in which these academics have been determined to silence any expert questioning of the findings they have arrived at by such dubious methods – not just by refusing to disclose their basic data but by discrediting and freezing out any scientific journal which dares to publish their critics' work. It seems they are prepared to stop at nothing to stifle scientific debate in this way, not least by ensuring that no dissenting research should find its way into the pages of IPCC reports.


This post has been edited by DeniseLau: Dec 2 2009, 01:26 AM
bgeh
post Dec 2 2009, 02:00 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,814 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Some new developments:

Apparently, 95% of raw data is available

QUOTE
“It is well known within the scientific community and particularly those who are sceptical of climate change that over 95% of the raw station data has been accessible through the Global Historical Climatology Network for several years.  We are quite clearly not hiding information which seems to be the speculation on some blogs and by some media commentators,” commented the University’s Pro-Vice-Chancellor, Research Enterprise and Engagement Professor Trevor Davies.

The University will make all the data accessible as soon as they are released from a range of non-publication agreements.  Publication will be carried out in collaboration with the Met Office Hadley Centre.

The procedure for releasing these data, which are mainly owned by National Meteorological Services (NMSs) around the globe, is by direct contact between the permanent representatives of NMSs (in the UK the Met Office).

“We are grateful for the necessary support of the Met Office in requesting the permissions for releasing the information but understand that responses may take several months and that some countries may refuse permission due to the economic value of the data,” continued Professor Davies.

The remaining data, to be published when permissions are given, generally cover areas of the world where there are fewer data collection stations.

“CRU’s full data will be published in the interests of research transparency when we have the necessary agreements. It is worth reiterating that our conclusions correlate well to those of other scientists based on the separate data sets held by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS),” concluded Professor Davies.

So yes, the data is coming
http://www.uea.ac.uk/mac/comm/media/press/...enews/CRUupdate

Also, as for missing data, see this:

QUOTE
SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years.

The UEA’s Climatic Research Unit (CRU) was forced to reveal the loss following requests for the data under Freedom of Information legislation.


QUOTE
Jones was not in charge of the CRU when the data were thrown away in the 1980s, a time when climate change was seen as a less pressing issue. The lost material was used to build the databases that have been his life’s work, showing how the world has warmed by 0.8C over the past 157 years.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/envi...icle6936328.ece

This however, does not justify what he states in his emails about rather destroying the data than letting it reach the hands of sceptics. But I can see the plausibility of why so, because the data is generally going to be extremely messy, and depending on the weighting given, you could get almost any kind of cooling/warming. The methodology is the most important factor in discriminating what's just a load of crock, vs. what's an acceptable statistical fit, weighting out less reliable data, etc, etc.

Also, for one of your quotes above:

QUOTE
Since 2003, however, when the statistical methods used to create the "hockey stick" were first exposed as fundamentally flawed by an expert Canadian statistician Steve McIntyre , an increasingly heated battle has been raging between Mann's supporters, calling themselves "the Hockey Team", and McIntyre and his own allies, as they have ever more devastatingly called into question the entire statistical basis on which the IPCC and CRU construct their case.


- About that, they actually redid the graph, this time with more datasets instead, available here:
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/36/13252.full.pdf+html

I haven't followed the press on critiques on it though, but it's probably wait and see now. They might have fixed the flaws pointed out by McIntyre in this new paper

You'll notice Jones', CRU's datasets being used, but there are others too, so you can probably safely ignore those tongue.gif

This post has been edited by bgeh: Dec 2 2009, 02:24 AM
icqx
post Dec 8 2009, 06:35 AM

New Member
*
Junior Member
4 posts

Joined: Aug 2008
An article explaining one of the many emails hacked from the CRU (quoted in bold).

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/11/22/806704/-Trickn

QUOTE
'A common exercise in any intro statistic class is to split the students into two groups, one group flips a coin 100 times and records the results, another just makes 100 entries up off the top of their heads. The teacher then comes back, looks at the two lists, and usually identifies which is which with hardly a glance. How? The trick is the teacher knows that on the real list, there will be several sequences of four or five in a row of all heads or all tails, whereas on the other list students will tend to stick with a more heads-tails-heads-tails alternating approach.

Now, everyone knew what I meant just now when I wrote trick, right? Nothing deceitful, simply the method used to get an answer to a math problem. With that in mind, let's look at this 1999 email purporting to be evidence of fraud among some climate scientists:

"I've just completed Mike's Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (i.e., from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline."

The email is one of thousands sent over a period of ten years by climate researchers and other scientists, journalists, lobbyists, and the occasional flake, stolen from a university network a few days ago. DeSmogBlog has more on the theft. Obviously, emails don't change the observed reality of human assisted climate change in the cryosphere and elsewhere. Nevertheless, climate change denialists have combed through them looking for anything they can pull out of context and pass off as evidence of a global conspiracy. They're getting some media mileage out of it. Even though, so far, the best they've been able to come up with is examples like the above.

The "Mike" is Michael Mann, "hide" means to account for (See also this comment), and the trick referred to is how to resolve a question involving two sets of data. One set is the "real" actual temperature readings, the other is by proxy, tree-rings, corals, ice cores and the like. When reconstructing the temperature record going back a thousand years or more, proxies are all you get -- there were no super accurate thermometers handily placed around the globe during medieval times! But proxies only give an approximation, hence the large variance in the now familiar reconstruction graph affectionately known as the Hockey Stick represented below as shading around the blue and red lines.'

thesupertramp
post Dec 12 2009, 01:40 AM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
125 posts

Joined: Dec 2009


What do you people think about its implications?

From what I can see, this scandal has been very influential, converting many to "climate change skeptics/deniers". Personally, I don't see how this affects the underlying science of climate change. Yes, it invalidates many of U of East Anglia's research on the topic (if proven to be true), but there are still plenty of other research into this phenomena. To use an analogy of someone else, if a fossil is found to be fabricated, it does not invalidate evolutionary theory, it simply means that particular fossil cannot be used anymore.

What do you think?
jswong
post Dec 22 2009, 02:49 PM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
200 posts

Joined: Jun 2007
Climategate and the recent IPCC conference in Denmark highlighted some major points - that there isn't a uniform consensus on AGW, and that the developed nations are using this as an excuse to strangle the developing nations by using fear-mongering to subdue less-developed nations.

Carbon-capping will prevent the industrialization of the less-developed nations. Carbon taxes, carbon trading etc. will some day be just like energy futures and become something that's market-driven rather than being based on real science.

Somehow, there are humans who are so stupid as to think that puny humans can change the world's climate with our doing, when a majority of the planet's surface in terms of volume and area are the oceans (which has hardly any human presence). A single volcano eruption is more powerful than a 1000 hiroshima nukes. A single underwater earthquake is more energetic than a few hundred thousand of the world's most powerful nuclear warheads.

And we think our industrialization will bring about the end of the world?

Our industrialization did bring about changes to the environment but when the Earth's climate changes naturally, it'll be much more than what humans are capable of. Look at the 70s, when there was a global cooling and everyone's afraid of a new "Little Ice Age". From WW2 until the 70s, for more than 3 decades, we were on a crazy industrialization drive.

Pollution was copious, there's no carbon-capping.. manufacturing processes were still being improved and no doubt, plenty of CO2 has been emitted. And yet, the Earth cooled! For 3 decades!!

How do we also explain the fact that the atmospheres of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn recorded an average increase of 0.5 degrees in the past 20 years or so? Human colonies spewing CO2 and greenhouse gases into their atmospheres?

This post has been edited by jswong: Dec 22 2009, 02:50 PM
IcyDarling
post Dec 22 2009, 06:11 PM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,372 posts

Joined: Sep 2008


my conspiracy theory, all of this global warming scandals are steps used by government to promote their "anti-global-warming products"


bgeh
post Dec 24 2009, 12:03 AM

Regular
******
Senior Member
1,814 posts

Joined: Jan 2003
QUOTE
Climategate and the recent IPCC conference in Denmark highlighted some major points - that there isn't a uniform consensus on AGW, and that the developed nations are using this as an excuse to strangle the developing nations by using fear-mongering to subdue less-developed nations.

Yup, if you define consensus in terms of 100% agreement. But a significant majority of scientists, 80% or more, do agree that AGW is occurring. As to using it as an excuse, I disagree - developed countries do recognise that they hold a greater share of the burden, having been the biggest emitters of the current CO2 in our atmosphere.

QUOTE
Carbon-capping will prevent the industrialization of the less-developed nations. Carbon taxes, carbon trading etc. will some day be just like energy futures and become something that's market-driven rather than being based on real science.
The idea of carbon trading was to provide a flexibility that carbon taxes do not allow - carbon taxes are also not a market based mechanism btw, and it is envisioned that these carbon taxes will have a higher cost in developed countries than developing ones. And there's real science behind these carbon markets - there is an explicit limit for carbon emissions for the whole market.

QUOTE
Somehow, there are humans who are so stupid as to think that puny humans can change the world's climate with our doing, when a majority of the planet's surface in terms of volume and area are the oceans (which has hardly any human presence). A single volcano eruption is more powerful than a 1000 hiroshima nukes. A single underwater earthquake is more energetic than a few hundred thousand of the world's most powerful nuclear warheads.
False, take a look at CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere for the past 500 thousand years or so, and try to link the increase in these concentrations to natural events, and especially, try to explain the rise since the 1800s in CO2 concentrations using only natural events. That 1 human, or a thousand cannot change the Earth in a large scale way, I may agree, that 6 billion humans cannot change the Earth in a large scale way, that I disagree.

QUOTE
And we think our industrialization will bring about the end of the world?
No one who is quite reasonable is saying the world will end. It will just change, quite a lot, in a very short timeframe, and this will have significant effects (e.g. a local climate change might cause droughts in previously fertile agricultural land, etc. etc.)

QUOTE
Our industrialization did bring about changes to the environment but when the Earth's climate changes naturally, it'll be much more than what humans are capable of. Look at the 70s, when there was a global cooling and everyone's afraid of a new "Little Ice Age". From WW2 until the 70s, for more than 3 decades, we were on a crazy industrialization drive.
Yup, there are plenty of natural events that can outweigh all the effects of CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere. The thing is, they're exceedingly rare - e.g. massive volcano erupting, cooling the atmosphere overall, solar flux changes at a rate large enough to significantly change the atmospheric temperature, etc. etc. Thing is, this crazy industrialisation drive has only increased further in the past 30 years.

QUOTE
How do we also explain the fact that the atmospheres of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn recorded an average increase of 0.5 degrees in the past 20 years or so? Human colonies spewing CO2 and greenhouse gases into their atmospheres?
Evidence please? Also, please show that this is a global thing, not a local change.

This post has been edited by bgeh: Dec 24 2009, 12:08 AM
Sellery
post Dec 29 2009, 11:10 AM

Getting Started
**
Junior Member
84 posts

Joined: Nov 2009
so what is the real motive behind the scandal?
Polaris
post Jan 2 2010, 03:33 AM

Trust Fund Baby
*******
Senior Member
2,850 posts

Joined: Aug 2006
From: Stellar Nursery
QUOTE(Sellery @ Dec 29 2009, 11:10 AM)
so what is the real motive behind the scandal?
*
To sum it up the scientists in the "scandal" were in the process of research and throwing theories at each other or simply talking shop and even if they were to fabricate stuff, their publications are subject to peer review and right now I don't see thousands of scientists all over the world suddenly reversing their stand based on this ClimateGate.

This is a sham scandal funded by those with vested interests in making sure the status quo is unchanged and oil companies remain an energy monopoly.

Unless these Climategate tards can come up with a full blown critique of ALL the available DATA and get the support of at least 50% of all the top climate scientists, then what they are doing is simply blowing hot air and feeding red meat to the uneducated, the gullible and the ignorant conspiracy theorists who probably flunked high school science and are now working in some low end job with zero prospects.

 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0208sec    0.16    5 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 26th November 2025 - 05:42 AM