Hello folks,

This is my very first post on jobs&careers. Straight to the point, I'm studying in the UK and I'm a penultimate year student, next year will be my placement year (if i'm lucky enough to get a job) else will be proceeded to my final year.
I have so many questions to ask. I hope some of you with related experience can help me out.

I'm thinking which of the professional certificate should i get? ACCA, ACA (ICAEW) or CFA. I wanted to go for ACCA because it is internationally recognized. But after attended some placement fair in Manchester ( I'm studying in manchester) I realised that ACA is preferred by almost all companies in the UK. So I have a 2nd thought since then.
I've talked to my friend regarding this matter and she told me if I were to work in the UK, I need to get ACA, if i'm going to malaysia after graduate then do ACCA because ACCA is very well known in Malaysia. And 1 more thing, after she googled to find out how popular is ICAEW in malaysia, she found out that many people in Malaysia dont even know what ACA is. So I rang my friend who is studying in Rahman university and ask him the same thing. He said " what ICAEW and what ACA is). So what? I'm pretty clear that ACCA would be the one for me.

Few days later, one of my friend came all the way down from Lancaster to Manchester. We met up and talk about ACCA and ICAEW. He told me that he is going to do ACA and I was shocked when I know that his parents from malaysia asked him to do so. His mum is a HR manager and one of her resposibility is to recruit ppl. That means ACA is pretty important for me now.

So what you guys think?

And 1 more thing, I might be going back to malaysia in summer and will be looking for a placement in malaysia if i dont get 1 in the UK. Is there any chance that the company will offer me a full time job after I graduate? And where to apply and which company to apply?

Or it is better for me to finish my final year then go back to find a job in malaysia rather then doing placement first? Work experience before you graduate is really important in the UK. Most company require applicants to have work experience prior graduate.

I hope it's not confusing and I'm sorry for my poor english. Thanks for looking

This post has been edited by Chuanmok: Nov 22 2009, 03:32 AM

If you dont mind the bond (4 years) and pretty sure that you'll be an accountant for some time, ACA (ICAEW) is nevertheless more prestigous. Anyways, ACA is only offered to first/second upper class of graduates, whereas ACCA is open to everyone including SPM leavers.

On the other hand, if you are keen to pursue a banking career, then CFA will be the answer.

You can apply to any Big 4 or banks for internship during your summer break. gLUCK.

ACCA..

Hmmm, tough choice. LOL. Not really.

As far as I am concerned, I would go for ACA.
1. It is more prestigious
2. ICAEW exams are one of the toughest examinations in the world.
3. You were saying that UK companies prefer ACA, while Malaysians prefer ACCA. It says alot about how ACA is in the international world.
4. For me, any Tom d*** and Harry can take ACCA nowadays. I have friends who is a science stream grad, working in science related field, taking ACCA. So yeah, it is not unique anymore, and sooner or later, EVERYONE will have ACCA.

However, ACA is not a programme that you can just sign up for like ACCA. The ACA programme is meant to groom you to be a future CEO, and not CFO (like what other professional qualifications do). It works as a mentorship programme, means you need to get yourself into one of ICAEW's certified tuition organizations (CTO) and apply from within. So yeah, the first step to ACA will be to secure yourself into an organization first. The full list can be obtained from ICAEW Malaysia's website.

*Based on my own opinion and knowledge. I do not represent ICAEW.

Can non-accounting grads take ACA then? Since its CEO grooming. Or only 'Arts stream' ppl can become CEO and 'Science stream' ppl are doomed to work for them all their lives? Cos a lot of intelligent people took 'Science stream' under the impression its more difficult thus rewards more later in life.

I agree with your other points. Not this one though.

The ACA program is widely accepted as the most public accounting / auditing focused of all the professional programs. Finance people in commercial widely regard the ACA as being too narrow to be a benefit in a commercial environment where business acumen and macroeconomic awareness is much more important than memorising accounting standards.

But if you intend to pursue a career in public accounting, nothing beats the ACA.

Having said that, NONE of the accounting qualifications groom you to be a CFO, much much less a CEO. All of them are too accounting standards and protocol heavy. A finance qualification with an emphasis on financial analysis and treasury plus commercial experience working directly with the commercial managers & decision-making (eg. business analyst, credit manager, risk manager, financial analyst, corporate funding and loans) will be the way any early 'grooming' will take place.

ACA is better, like Arse said ACCA is becoming chapalang.

As said fact that ACA is better known is UK is a telling fact in itself.

Won't be long before every employer in town knows this.

Hey Arse,

want to ask you - do you think ACCA is getting easier to pass?

I will say ICAEW for the ultimate choice (they have these statistics in europe that ICAEW holder likelihood to become CEO & CFO is 5 times higher than all the qualifications & degrees combined, not sure how accurate though).

My recommendation is ACCA-ICAEW route.
Reason being is the "exemption" part.
Degree is not really recognised in the eyes of ICAEW compared to degree so you will only have only 3 or 4 papers exemption. ACCA has more than 13 to 14 paper exemption.
Period is roughly the same : 4 years but the latter route you may end up with 2 professional title.
If you only take ICAEW and not pass all then you are stuck with degree & part ICAEW. If follow acca-icaew route then you may have acca if cannot finish aca.

The most important is go ICAEW website now & check their exemption structure.

CFA applies only if you want to stick with banking, if not then its usefulness in commercial sector is quite limited. Commercial companies (or MNC) will require jack of all trades rather than bank which requires speciallist. Thats why acca serves as the most solid platform for you to launch your career. Notice my word, its platform to launch not the ultimate goal. If you can get promoted or recognised very quickly then you don't need any paper to proof your credentials. But banking is the only line that can rob your life but they will seriously rewarding in terms of $$$.

Its only when your talent is not recognised then you will need all sorts of paper to back your claim. Sometimes less is more, just read the Abe Lincoln Gettysberg address speech, short & crispy.

I say this as someone who was exactly in the same shoes as the TS about 2 years ago.

For a UK university accounting graduate, the most natural route is to apply to a Big 4 firm under its Graduate Scheme. By doing so, you would have to do ICAEW's ACA or ICAS's CA (both are equally prestigious qualifications). Typically they wouldn't make you do the ACCA.

It is true that the ACA is engineered in a way to groom public accountants, but if you look at its structure it has a paper which focuses on Business & Finance and another one on Business Strategy; as well as a Case Study paper at the end which is based on a business scenario.

My advice would be to go for a summer internship at the Big 4, do your best and if you get the job, do take it because the amount of focus they put on the training and support for your ACA studies is immense.

Topace111, What do u mean by taking acca-icaew route? Do you mean to first finish ACCA and get some exemptions then continue to do ACA? I'm studying accounting and finance, I dont really know which career suit me best. Sometimes I just think that being an accountant in the future and dealing with numbers and all documents will end up no live. But again... Every job has its pros&cons. I wish someone could give me the insight of each of the career (eg, Accountant, CFA).

Cyclonova, is big4 giving support to its employer to pursue ACA studies? I would say my choice would depends on company if what you say is true. Is there any chance that I will get support from the company after graduation without taking ACCA, ACA or equivalent qualification? MAny people would say "dont pay for the fee yourself, go work in a company and they will send you for training or pay for your tuition fee of professional qualification.

Oh, one important thing. What would be the salary of a fresh graduate like me? Thanks

* Cyclonova, are you saying that you were facing the same problem 2 years ago? Do you mind telling me which qualification did you end up with and which field are you in now?

This post has been edited by Chuanmok: Nov 21 2009, 01:06 AM

Almost everyone in the end will one way or another takes up ICAEW (for those ambitious ones). So its ICAEW will need to draft an exemption system for students to refer to. ACCA will have the highest and easiest no of exemptions since both are quite related. You can go to their website and check (Ie : putting your degree and university's name or professional qualification possessed).

Big 4 will sposor you albeit reluctantly unless you expressed a very clear desire to stay until partner level. Its bcos you will spend roughly 4 months out of 1 year for study (including study leave & exams). So firms will not really enjoy that, but the offer to bond for ICAEW attracts certain graduates at the first place.

To launch you career, starting off in large MNC or Ltd firms will be quite risky being :
1) They will consolidate all their financial & accounting operations under a single entity like (Shell : Shell Shared Services Centre).
2) They will separate their divisions by classifications of a/cs like revenue, cost, interco, GL, treasury,....
3) So if you are selected into revenue, then you will stuck at revenue for the rest of your life (or it may not)
4) If your boss is there for good, then your promotion or increment will be lesser compared to others.

Being working in Big4 but I am not being bonded (I already possessed one) the bonding thing is actually a very subjective issue :
- if you fail in exam, then your promotion will stuck at junior level until you passed those exams.
- if you are extremely unhappy you cannot just simply choose to leave since you need to repay them (normally 4 years)
- they rarely give full bonds, since ICAEW is quite expensive they normally have a ceiling range and you will bond the rest.
- however if you performed well they may scrapped partially of that bond.

Well if you can get a job in UK that is quite good since I known some UK grads colleagues that UK have some domestic bias especially towards asians and they do have their own financial difficulties and unemployment problems. Not to mention the visa application issue....

Salary should be around RM2450 which is standard in MYS for Big4. RM2600 if you are an acca affiliate.

Thank you very much for your precious info. I have a clearer view now =)

Below are the exemptions based on the uni and the course im studying.
I dont know what do they mean because I dont know in which paper (1,2,3) they are in. And also how many units in a paper. Can someone explain them to me? Thanks


Accounting

A pass mark of 50% is required in all of the modules listed below, with at least 40% in all assessed elements

5B1010 Financial Accounting

5B2010 Accounting Theory and Practice

Assurance

A pass mark of 50% is required in all of the modules listed below, with at least 40% in all assessed elements

5B3030 Audit and Assurance

Business and Finance

Upper Second or first degree award or 50% is required in all of the modules listed below, with at least 40% in all assessed elements

5B1010 Financial Accounting

5C1030 Management Accounting 1

5B1020 Economics and Law

5C2020 Corporate Finance

5B2010 Accounting Theory and Practice

5B3020 Advanced Accounting Theory and Practice

Law

A pass mark of 50% is required in all of the modules listed below, with at least 40% in all assessed elements

5B1020 Economics and Law

5B2040 Business and Law

Management Information

A pass mark of 50% is required in all of the modules listed below, with at least 40% in all assessed elements

5C1030 Management Accounting 1

5C2030 Management Accounting 2

5C3040 Management Accounting 3

Principles of Taxation

A pass mark of 50% is required in all of the modules listed below, with at least 40% in all assessed elements

5B3040 Theory and Practice of Taxation

Business Strategy

A pass mark of 50% is required in all of the modules listed below, with at least 40% in all assessed elements

5J3080 Strategic Management

(Credit only available to students graduating in 2009 or earlier)

Financial Management

A pass mark of 50% is required in all of the modules listed below, with at least 40% in all assessed elements

5C2020 Corporate Finance

5C3060 Advanced Corporate Finance

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Added on November 21, 2009, 4:27 amTopace111, do you mind to tell me which of the big 4 are you working for? (Plz PM me if you dont wanna disclose it). And based on your experience which is the best in terms of employer benefits, company policy, pay, workload wise? And which pose is better? Honestly I dont know what I want to be in the future. I only know I can choose to become an auditor and financial advisor(if i were to take CFA)

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Added on November 21, 2009, 7:16 amUnbelievable.. I accidentally click on internship advertising and it links me to PwC. Can anyone tell me which line of service(assurance, tax, advisory, firm services) is the best or benefits me most after i graduate?? My speaking and writing in english is just average so it is better not to get into a line of service which requires good communication and excellent writing skills. Is fluency in english language an essential element in getting a job(internship) in big4 in malaysia?

This post has been edited by Chuanmok: Nov 21 2009, 07:29 AM

I think CFA is more towards investment banking and corporate finance like M&As. Most of the CFAs work as financial analysts or research analysts or brokers.

I don't think its a P&C thing, I am with EY MYS.
Audit is also not my first choice since I am not really looking forward to the the "job" itself. But its a great stepping stone and a great shortcut to jump to other career. Most of other professions requires the juniors to perform tedious works for their first 2 or 3 years. After joining audit you can join those company without experiencing those few years (but you have to suffer your own audit work as well).

If you are unsure about where to go or what to be then my suggestion is to stick with Big4 first for exposure. You may be exposed to audit work which involves analytical skills which is applicable in a lot of industries. Next you may be also exposed to accounting and many other sides of the company itself depending on your audit scope & engagement (and allocation by seniors or managers).

I am not promoting for Big4 but its quite essential for new grads to get these kind of experience while they are still young. I have received far better offers in terms of prestige and pay but those are only for short term. By the way advisory or consultancy position is not really recommended to join as fresh grads being you won't learn much compared to joining as experienced hires. You need to experience the operations itself before advising people. But if you see your future in it why not apply, interview session is really illuminating for me.

Starting pay : BDO is the highest I think, RM2800 to Rm3000 (but their increment is very little compared to others)
Training : PwC is very famous for their high tech and complete system.
Workload wise : Everywhere is the same.
Culture : EY has been noted to have friendly working environment (but got a few bad eggs as well)

PwC dealing with large conglomerates so you will have chances to audit them (and join them in later years), however being the client is too large : auditor are mostly stick within the same division or part of operations. Hence the general view of its "specialization".

EY is quite contrast with PwC, EY deals with more companies than any other Big4 (have big,medium and small). So as an auditor you may have a lot of different exposure. For small and medium (you may in charge of the whole company or most of it). For large company you will be in charge of one or two subsidiary.

KPMG is like a mixture of both Ey & PWC. Generally they will handle all sorts of clients in their respective depts. Their structure is very much like PwC as well.

Deloitte is rarely discussed so I hardly knew much about them. But they have the best tax dept.

Quite a bit of generalisation there about MNCs.

Service centers are not the only finance structure in MNCs. Like the banks, they are are mostly backroom operations only like AP, AR, invoicing, inventory costing, expense & claims, assets etc. But there are also lots of jobs which are business aligned or biz facing like biz unit finance, biz analysis, profit planning, customer financial services and corporate level finance like funding & cash, risk management, internal audit, investor relations, strategic planning etc. And depending on how the MNC wants to manage their local accounting book (according to local GAAP), some may centralise it to a service center, but most have local controllers organisations in each country as it's simply easier having locals deal with the local requirements & authorities rather than some foreigner in a far off service center somewhere.

I spent 3 years in PW (no C yet at that time) and then the last 10 years in a MNC. I've had multiple functional rotations from biz analysis, mfg & inventory costing, controller, internal audit to biz unit finance now. The scope has grown over time from one country, to ASEAN, to Asia (excluding China), to Asia (including China) + ANZ and later next year, I'll get the Indian subcontinent as well. I've moved from biz aligned (biz analysis) to service center (costing & controller) to corporate (audit) and back to biz aligned (biz unit). And the fact that bigger MNCs have many biz units of different sizes, simply moving from one biz to another can be a promotion or demotion (with no change in function or geography). So no, it's far from being "stuck in revenue" for the rest of my life.

Thinking back, if I had the chance to restart my career all over again, would I have started at PW again? No, I would go straight to a MNC. But it will have to be a big one and a global one to provide the length and breadth. Something Top 100 or maybe Top 200 in the world. Fortune 50 US or Fortune 50 Europe is okay as well. Top 5 in each major global industry is good too (global! ie. something like palm oil will not be a global industry). But you have to be mobile and willing to move wherever the company wants you to go. I reckon that after 13 years working, I would be at least 2 promotions ahead of where I am now if I started Day 1 in this MNC, rather than coming in at Year 4 from PW. I wouldn't need to waste a year or two building my network, my credibility and accumulating support amongst the bosses.

The accounting firms are different how?

How about others?
Sorry the line of service including Assurance, tax(not audit, my mistake), advisory and firm services. I have to choose from one of them.

Seantang, we have the same name just that you have an extra "g" lol.
Btw.. I do really appreciate your advice too..
Is MNC = multinational corporate?
I'm even indecisive now. Good to know that you have both experience in Big4 and MNC. Are you working in a MNC as an accountant when you first join them? It's more than ten years ago when you join PW©, would you think that it might be different today? Or you still think that starting off in MNC is far better than in big4?
Could you tell me your preference MNC and do they offer placement or internship? Thanks

Thats a really good insight and I really appreciate that. Really large MNC's are hard to come by not to mention very few openings. And jumping straight to those companies without any idea or exposure can be quite daunting.

In accounting firms, promotion is automatic every year until managerial level which is slower but promotion is still there until partner level. I am not too sure about how the system goes in the past but generally it is right now.
There will be a point in 3 to 4 years time that the staff will leave, so the dilemma is why they should stay at the firm.
I heard pay increment in Big4 for am or mgr is quite high (if reach that stage quite early). I think earning around RM6 to 7k p.m around age 25 or 26 will be very attractive for some. Since its always understaffed at Big4 I think its safe to say those that leave is more than those who stayed to be promoted.

For MNC, I think job hopping will be less compared to others. So its quite unfeasible to have so many managers or directors just bcos they are due for it. In accounting firms, they have no restriction on numbers of managers or partners (depending on number of clients). If they fufilled the minimum standards for KPI then they will get promotion or they stuck on their professional papers.

Do you join the MNC that is being audited by your firm ?

Let me put it this way. If you can make it in the top 4 accounting firms in the world, you can probably make it in a top 100 MNC.

I can safely tell you that salaries in top MNCs are better than accounting firms. Most of our executives get around 6-12K and these salaries are not as uncommon as you would think. Half the 50 staff in our accounting service center are in that range. New managers start at around 14K. That's more than what senior managers get at Big 4 firms.

As for the speed of promotions, MNCs can be quite fast if you do well. Up until a few years ago, we even had automatic promotions for the first 5 levels (as long as you are rated average and above). Other than that, there's all sorts of fast track programs like future leader, high potential, subject matter expert etc.

Besides salary. there's also the quality of life and working environment. I used to hate the compulsory car/taxi pooling, sharing cheap hotel rooms, low claims, buying your own stationery etc to save cost in PW. In MNCs, you can fly business class (for flights > 3hrs), corporate hotels are 5 star (safety thing), company credit card, 100% claims when you travel etc. You just feel so much less exploited.

Some of the partners and managers were rubbish as well. Throwing files, mouthing off, being arseholes. In MNCs, there are 1800-ETHICSLINEs you can call to report any abuse or discrimination. So, everyone's generally respectful and courteous. Environment's better.

Nope. I just answered a job ad in the newspaper.

But you know, would you be where you are if you did not have that 3 year accounting qualification from your experience with PW i.e did it help you with your post-PW career? Your comment about how you would go straight off to MNCs after grad really intrigued me - adding fuel to the recent most-probably-confirmed rumour in PwC regarding promotions but to put it bluntly, there's no room for me to distinguish myself anymore.

Seantang, do you mind to tell us which MNC do you work for? And what sort of qualification do I need to help me to join in a MNC? I just need a placement/internship not a graduate job for now.

P.S: I've talked about placement/internship so many times, and now I wonder if it's an important element(in Malaysia or in a MNC) for a student before graduation? Or it is better to finish my degree and get a real job rather than wasting a year in placement?

This post has been edited by Chuanmok: Nov 22 2009, 04:24 AM