Whistle blowing is basically an act of alerting the higher ups when an engineer found out that a product/process produced by the company is unsafe. Internal whistle blowing is to report to the boss/higher-up, while external whistle blowing is to inform to mass media and such.

Ok keeping story short, engineers are supposed to have the public's safety and interest as their main concern. If they found out something that could endanger the public, they should take measures to rectify it. Whistle blowing comes as a last resort.

Now, another concern is that in most of the countries, the law does not protect these whistle blowers. Also, while engineer should focus on public safety, they are naturally more concerned about keeping their job.

Thus the problem and focus of this discussion is that, should or should not one whistle blow? Save the people or save my own job?
Is it possible to compel the government to legislate a law to protect whistle blowers?

Discussable? XD

(I guess the correct tag would be Philosophy?)

Discussable? XD


sure discussable.. but is it the right place??? ahaha....

i think malaysians need to be train for emergency.. eg.. when in public, an alarm broke, people would just ignore it until it explodes....

am i right? what would you do if your in midvalley and alarm went off non stop?

I think the proper place should be RWI. But after some time there, I felt the people there aren't exactly, well, discussable if you know what I mean.

Well if there's alarm people would be slightly on the edge. When there are announcement saying there are accidents in the mall, panic would strike.

Do you want to talk about Corporate Governance in regards of whistle blowing policy?

Regards, Joey

yes... announcement would be the keyword instead of ringgg........ wee woo wee woo.....

so it seems like this thread is more on ethical... future of your job which you built for decades or life of people??

Redundancies, ethical questioning, rational thinking...depends on how big the issue in hand is.

Erin Brockovich-Ellis is a very good case to study upon. But we are speaking whistle blowing in Malaysia? I don't think it's totally feasible.

Regards, Joey

Perhaps you can shed some light on it?

Yeap. In fact it's one of my subject for this semester. It got me thinking, engineers have such huge responsibilities, yet we're paid peanut; overwork and underpaid.

How far would you want to take the case? Such incidences can be brought into Court for hearing.

In addition, you can do some reading on Jeffrey Wigand (tobacco case). I've lost the folio which I did back during my Univ time. It's a very good argumentative topic. It is challenging as well because it provokes multiple angles thinking and evaluation from each and every possible outcome.

Regards, Joey

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Nov 11 2009, 11:43 AM

which major? mechanical?? local U??

I must admit that we studied the same but doc and lawyer get better reputations...

I think,it's always ethics first,than my job.

If a structure fails,people get killed or get injured.That would put you in even bigger trouble than losing your job,like you can practise anymore or get jailed.

I havent done ethics yet,though.

Thats true,we have to work like a horse and get paid with some peanuts.

Engineering isnt really a glamorous job,to be honest.Still,it's the cool stuff you do/learn makes it fun.

Erm, I'm just referring to whistle blowing in general. In my texts I've read cases on the Intel Pentium chip flaw, Challenger and a lot of other cases.
Thing is, errors in most casses could have actually been prevented. In the case of Challenger, the obvious choice was to delay/postpone the launch. But the management insisted with the launch just to please Mr Bush.

So I'm wondering, how far could we, in Malaysia, go as to whistle blow? For one, the whistle blower's job would be at stake.

Yeah local U, electrical

Engineering isn't as glamorous. But it does the most for humanity!

That's true. The phrase "I'm able to engineer a thousand years of pain up your butt!" is much cooler than "Objection!" and "Take this twice a day after meal" XD XD

I did read about a few cases on large scale failures,like a huge concrete dam collapse and flooded a few village because someone didnt report on the rock toe failure.

That could prevented by the whistle blowing.

Yeap.Thats what i like about it.

Like what my dean said last time,save the world.



True.It's always cooler than "Objection" since day 1.

Thing is, it does sound very honorable to save the humanity. But then, who's going to save me after I've saved them?

Since you can save people,like preventing bad stuff from happening to them,i think you should be capable enough to save yourself too,right?

If not,consult someone who can save you?

ahahah... you got that right...

what is transformerwithout engineer..
what is Iphone without engineer
what is CAD scanw ithout engineer....

you know, till now I haven seen any drama dedicaated to engineer you know, i`ve seen drama on police, doctor, lawyer, fireman etc etc.. but engineer?

For our local scene, does this ring a bell?

"Whistle blower will surface only at a Royal Commission of Inquiry".

Regards, Joey

It's because engineer's work have nothing interesting to show on TV.It's just spread sheets,software analysis,or some dirty construction.

It's just not interesting to show it on TV.There isnt much tension or excitement in it.

~lynn~,

Your conscience.

What does doing the RIGHT thing has anything to do with HONOR??

You either do the RIGHT thing or you will face the consequences from God or Karma. There is NO ESCAPE. And, you do not have to wait for judgment day either.

Treat others like how you like to treated.
The Golden Rule

You build a bridge that last. You hope that people will return the favor so that when you walk under a bridge, it will not collapse on top of you. This is how the world works. If people STOP doing the RIGHT thing, they cannot expect OTHERS to do the same. We have MUTUAL RESPONSIBILITY to each other.

You do not need to believe in any religion to understand this.

Dreamer

---

Added on November 3, 2009, 9:46 amCheesenium,

Obviously, you do not watch

A) Learning channel

B) Discovery channel

C) History Channel

D) Sci-Fi Channel

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Nov 3 2009, 09:46 AM

not those....

DRAMATIC one... like ER, shield for docrot and police...

I did watched a documentary about the Akashi Kaikyo Bridge in Japan last two years if I'm not mistaken.

It was full of tension and everyone is praying for the engineering miracle to happen. Basically it's is man against nature. I can see the tensions in those Japanese engineer's eyes. Everything is calculated to the millimetres of difference between the hinge and the bearings.

The slightest mistake can cause the whole bridge to be scrap. Raging water of the sea, the unforgiving wind blowing, it's all in an engineer work. To be honest, I didn't know engineering is that unforgiving. It's gut wrenching than holding a scalpel in an Operating Room.

Regards, Joey

p.s: Definitely recommend to watch the bridge building documentary. Especially engineers.

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Nov 3 2009, 10:45 AM

Im talking about TV series or dramas,not documentaries.There are heaps of documentaries on engineering.

I enjoy watching documentaries,as they usually show the difficulties that they faced during the design or construction process.

What I meant by saving myself, is that once I whistle blow, my career at the company is almost destroyed. Being thrown out of job is the last thing I'd want. Whistle blowing causes distrust in the company. Being labeled as one, I'd have difficulty to find another job, no?

Sorry, it doesn't ring any bell.

The sad fact is how unkind the world had become these days. A simple example, a stranger walking up to you asking for direction, your first reaction is to think that he's a conman. So materialistic has we became that we'd stay put if the trouble might affect us.

So the engineer have saved the public from a engineering disaster, but will the public essentially thank him? Perhaps, but only temporary.

Before a person blows the whistle he should first be extremely aware of how things work in the circumstances and situation he is in.

Let's have a hypothetical example: where the mass media is controlled by the government, or by people and persons with vested interests, and where the line between politics and business is blurred and the two are in fact connected, where there are no regulatory mechanisms or branches of government separate from one another.

There would simply be no "official", safe, legal way to whistleblow because there is no meaningful protection given.

And if there is no protection given to whistleblowers, that is because people WANT it kept that way. The public, simply have no say, because they have divested their say to people they have "entrusted" to take care of them.

This does not mean that it is not possible to blow the whistle. This only means that blowing the whistle will become more akin to espionage, because in the end that is what it is: the leaking of secrets into the public domain when that is proscribed, and the penalty for sabotage, even if in the best interests, would be very severe.

---

Added on November 3, 2009, 4:50 pm"God" and "Karma" is just a way of saying that there won't be any consequences in this life.

So we have to invent fictional causes and effects and do our best to make people believe such stories in order to influence their behavior.

LMAO!

All of this Jesus talk makes me want to vomit.

The public owes its individuals just as much responsibility and protection that we expect from one.

You cannot ask a person to "sacrifice" and "do the right thing" without giving back anything in return, which is exactly what we often do.

This post has been edited by Dickson Poon: Nov 3 2009, 04:50 PM

Yes! Nicely done, exactly the problem I wanted to address. Therefore in such situations, what can be done?

Nothing if you feel nothing could be done. As simply as that. The decision to make is basically in your hands.

Regards, Joey

But one's guilty conscience would be biting on the inside. I believe that would ultimately lead to depression. Such is 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.


Shouldn't a law be legislated to protect whistle blowers? And if there is, what should be contained in the law?

Should, would, could. All the ifs. Yes, it should exist, but will it? No.

The world is a fickle place, and people just want money money money.

Dreamer , ' Treat others like how you like to treated.'

I always treated others as my best friend and as one of my family member , I'm an ENFJ , so I give a lot to others. But sometimes people just don't appreciate my deeds , Ie. I have bought medicines for a friend few times yet now he is avoiding me like hell. He stop talking with me since I don't know when. And I found no logic reason behind why he is angry me, and I always have this in mind , he got no right to angry me because I sacrifice a lot for him to build this friendship. Yet he don't appreciate...

But as an ENFJ , I always believe that the universe will provide whatever things that the others din't appreciate. The things that you given will be returned , although not by them themselves , but the universe will pay somehow or rather.

But the problem is , shall I continue treat others like how I like to be treated ? I sometimes feel I give too much and take back so little or non appreciation at all! But I still give , thats why the universe has been so kind to me.

Laws of Malaysia (Act 588) Communications and Multimedia Act 1998. I cannot write much here but it helps if you read through it and understand it.

Regards, Joey

Dickson Poon,

Who say that karma and God only affect a person ONLY after they die??

This is WHAT people choose to believe in order to hope that they can escape the PUNISHMENT. But, they have NO ESCAPE.

Dreamer



This post has been edited by dreamer101: Nov 5 2009, 10:33 AM

A law alone isn't enough... in a hypothetical country where its richest and most powerful have their fingers in all branches of government including the security apparatus, the problem is that these people collude with one another to circumvent laws and public interest.

I don't see Dubya and Blair getting punished so far. These two men have done far worse than you or I ever could.

Keep on believing that fantasy if it helps you sleep better.

Sorry for the late reply guys, just finished my final examinations
And here we go

Indeed. Materialistic? For me, I view the problem roots from capitalism. While it is good for the economy to a certain extend, it does tend to disregard important social issues and morality/ethics.

I see. I'll do a quick search on that. Thanks.

I'd hope this discussion wouldn't steer too much into the direction of religious teachings.

And thus we will all be doomed to live in a world of self-preservation rather than sustainable development of the society?
Idea is, if a law exists, there can at least be a legal platform to whistle blow, and hence providing a more substantial case in the court. Previous court cases involving whistle blowing, such as the 3 engineers from BART, eventually lost the case even though their act saved lives.
Sure they've done remarkably for the society. But at the end of the day, they've lost their jobs. A case of 'Buat baik dipanah kilat.'

Well, in all cases society is perverted and skewered in such a way that, even had I done much good for the benefit of everyone, the most I'd get is a "I couldn't care less what YOU did". Being of good moral fibre exists in such a minority sometimes, and everyone else (even those who are "morally good") are just out to save their own skins. Admit it, we're all selfish to that extent. Mother Teresa's don't exist nowadays..

One question:
Under Human Resource Management spectrum, is there a whistle-blowing policy and procedure document to be signed? Something related to provisional step by step instruction on how to proceed in the event that an employee wishes to make a whistle-blowing complaint. Your company have that sort of thing?

Regards, Joey

p.s: It will provide legislative and organisational assurances of support if you happened to whistle blow.

Have you watched Prison Break? Micheal Scofield is an engineer with brains

whistle blowing is an act by an employee to inform higher management or the public about unethical or illegal behavior of an employer or supervisor (which also included product which is unsafe like what you want us to discuss). It divide into 3 which are internal, external and also anonymous/acknowledge.

How do you know when you should do whistle blowing?
- when you should (morally permissible) when
need: a clear important harm can be avoided
proximity: in a clear position to report the problem
probability: higher chance of success
last resort: no one can do it other than you

- when you must (morally obligatory)
four point in morally permissible are met
and the problem give imminent danger to a person if it continue

in corporate point of view, whistle blowing is undesirable because it can create distrust, disharmony, lead to inability to work in team and also threat of violence

Remind me of Ethics and Governance syllabus. Whistle blowing is right or not is based on various factors. 1 very significant is whether the whistleblower has proof or not.

I've learnt the concept of "whistle blowing" in International Business, Code of Ethics and Conducts, Business Management, attending Corporate Governance symposium, HRM policy and procedure practices....it's more than enough to know the inside out of whistle blowing.

However, the ultimatum belongs to us and at the end of the day, you'll just have to make a decision and act upon it or simply ignoring the whole ordeal.

Regards, Joey

p.s: The cookies are there. It's literally up to you to take one and grab a bite on it.

As an engineer, you have professional code of conducts and if you know something is obviously wrong but decided to keep quiet, you are equally guilty of the mistake. Also, most whistle blowing act should stop internally because it is in the interest of the company to rectify the problem else they'll get themselves sued into oblivion.

I can't recall which program this was on, but there was once a plane crash due to an inherently unsafe component/maintenance procedure. The engineer responsible flagged the issue up but it was ignored by the company due to additional cost.

In the UK, there are laws, such as this http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2007/ukpga_20070019_en_1 which would require companies to be responsible.

This post has been edited by Geminist: Nov 11 2009, 03:42 PM

Your statement sounds cruel but sadly that is how the world/society is.

Sorry I find your posts quite hard to understand.
Are you meant to say that if I signed up to work in a certain company, are there any black and white about whistle blowing?
Pardon me I'm still an undergraduate, haven't step into the realms of working life yet.

Ah.... I suspect we've read the same textbook XD XD
It's exactly the same, conditions to whistle blow. Haha.

1. Aha, that's a new way of putting it.

2. I remembered reading on that case too. In most of the cases, it seems that the engineering department are always in the lower position, i.e. they have to do this and that, but ultimately the decisions lies in the hands of the management department.

It doesn't take a University graduate to know such statement. Nonetheless, you are correct with your assumption. There's a separate document that you need to signed, besides your acknowledgment of Appointment Letter or any relevant documents.

Regards, Joey

p.s: Only a selected few companies in Malaysia that have this "whistle blowing" policy and procedure documents.

This post has been edited by Joey Christensen: Nov 18 2009, 09:54 AM

I see. No I wasn't aware of the existence of such policies. Perhaps it is a good thing.