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Science Alternative Energy 1.0, Power Overwhelming!

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tgrrr
post Aug 14 2009, 12:55 PM

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QUOTE(bgeh @ Aug 13 2009, 07:55 PM)
Let's put things in perspective here:

Why are we seeking alternative energy sources? It depends on the context we're talking about. I'm going to presume that we're speaking of the global context of greenhouse gas emissions, to reduce global warming. Now I'm supposing the pollutants are simply non-greenhouse gases, or of much less strength than CO2 or methane.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/200...s-msm102308.php

My suggestion for what would work? The cheapest alternative energy is unused energy. I reckon that the best method is to cut down on trips, holidays, save power whenever possible. It's not only the money factor that counts in research, it's also the time factor, and it's that time factor that counts right now. Otherwise, use non-polluting energy sources such as nuclear to bridge over till fusion and solar arrives as a cheap source of energy, because right now they simply aren't (fusion almost by definition, solar, well, the variability problem etc, etc)
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I'm more concerned should we ran out of fossil fuel before having an alternative solution ready.
Should we be unable to find an alternative energy source that's as abundant to sustain our growth, there will come a time when human population control and energy budgeting is required.

The distribution of the new alternative energy is also important since a large percentage of current fossil fuel is consumed by transportation.


Added on August 14, 2009, 1:02 pm
QUOTE(rexis @ Aug 14 2009, 08:09 AM)
Be it solar or biomass, there is just too little application locally. Much of the biomass energy in padi field wasted by contributing to haze, meanwhile the palm oil refinery do generate surplus of energy by burning EFB, but AFAIK none of them feeding it back to the grid.

I just don't see our gov has any foreseeable plan to cut our dependency on fossil fuel.
Solar is just part of the puzzle to renewable energies needs.

Physical efficiency has nothing to do with popular use, financial efficiency, yes.

Take a simple example, diesel engines have much higher efficiency then petrol engine, why Malaysian mostly drive petrol cars? It is because our law make it much more expensive to drive diesel car. Not to say that Gov has taxed any solar panel, but solar panel is very expensive by nature, and our electricity is relatively cheap and make it financially impractical to install solar panels.

Governmental encouragement(not only by words) and dedication plays a vital role in widespread use of renewable energies. Take Spain for example, they have extensive renewable energies use in Solar, Wind, and the only Wave farm in the world. In order to reach the target of cutting 20% emission by 2020, their government has taken the initiative and made policies that encourage renewable energies.

We have our own solar maker here, do we make use of the solar panels they made?
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Well all I can say is the government seems to be always lacking in foresight.
I remember hearing about hydropower and it's potential in Malaysia since secondary school. Ask any student about electricity generation in Malaysia and they think of hydropower. But after 2 decades why our utilization of hydropower is dismally low?

This post has been edited by tgrrr: Aug 14 2009, 01:02 PM
TSrexis
post Aug 14 2009, 10:40 PM

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QUOTE(tgrrr @ Aug 14 2009, 12:55 PM)
The distribution of the new alternative energy is also important since a large percentage of current fossil fuel is consumed by transportation.


Added on August 14, 2009, 1:02 pm
Well all I can say is the government seems to be always lacking in foresight.
I remember hearing about hydropower and it's potential in Malaysia since secondary school. Ask any student about electricity generation in Malaysia and they think of hydropower. But after 2 decades why our utilization of hydropower is dismally low?
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Exactly.

I can argue with bgeh here until page 100 about solar, but the main problem here is that our gov is short sighted, thirst for short term gain, and prioritise profit. Being a developing country, we can ignore Kyoto Protocol and do not think about cutting emission just yet.

Even our energy security is at stake. We can be easily affected by sky rocketing petroleum price, and even if petroleum price came down, TNB say they are burning imported coal. And the latest I read about we need to import natural gas to meet our own demand because all our gas exported under the pricing some decades ago.

In short, its a big mess. And in long, what can we do to get our foot out of this mess.

And I do not think that NUKE is the solution.
bgeh
post Aug 15 2009, 01:27 AM

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QUOTE(rexis @ Aug 14 2009, 10:40 PM)
Exactly.

I can argue with bgeh here until page 100 about solar, but the main problem here is that our gov is short sighted, thirst for short term gain, and prioritise profit. Being a developing country, we can ignore Kyoto Protocol and do not think about cutting emission just yet.

Even our energy security is at stake. We can be easily affected by sky rocketing petroleum price, and even if petroleum price came down, TNB say they are burning imported coal. And the latest I read about we need to import natural gas to meet our own demand because all our gas exported under the pricing some decades ago.

In short, its a big mess. And in long, what can we do to get our foot out of this mess.

And I do not think that NUKE is the solution.
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But you wanted a more technical discussion, and you're veering into the politics of the thing, every time another technical problem with solar is brought up, which is probably RWI, no?

This post has been edited by bgeh: Aug 15 2009, 01:28 AM
empire23
post Aug 15 2009, 02:14 AM

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QUOTE(rexis @ Aug 13 2009, 01:10 PM)
Of course there is never enough. Certain that solar power still have unimaginable potential yet to be unlocked, and this can only achieve via dedicated research and practical application. We have the technology, and we need to dedicate more energy into refining the technology. And improvement like that can never stop. When "enough" here it would mean sufficient effort applied and it is practical enough to become one of the major alternative energy, or even replacing our primary energy source.

Do you mean saving resources from fusion to put into solar research? No doubt fusion required considerable research before it is feasible, but that is something that is not yet a reality. Perhaps it will benefit us with unlimited energy after some 100+ years. It won't help us immediately, but the synergy is there. Things has to be carried out simultaneously.

Meanwhile, what do you think will actually work for real life then? Apart from building more and bigger coal fired power station.

(When talk about coal fired power station, there are still amber room for improvement, like clean coal fired station which capture all the CO2 emission and produce no smoke at all, etc.)
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Dedicated research is easily talked about, hard to do, trust me on that one. There are limits to how far you can push a particular technology.

Most people believe that alternative energy is in finding new source. Didja know that most diesel plants are only 18 percent efficient?

It's not as exciting as fusion or GaAs solar panels, but i believe that transmission line matching, superconductors, proper application of insulation, proper spacing and use of dielectric, the minimization of corona effect, proper grid routing, efficient start-stop cycles, power factor corrected houses and so on have a lot more potential than most of these ideas.
locke
post Aug 15 2009, 12:28 PM

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The problem is not about the alternative solar energy, fusion energy, hydro energy, geo energy, wind energy, nuclear energy or biomass energy.

The problem is about how to get your so call energy inside the car with the condition that the car performance and cost must be at least the same as petrol car.

So what if u have all the alternative energy in the world. As long as you cannot get those energy inside your car u cannot use it as an alternative to fossil fuel.

You know what, Malaysia already got a surplus of energy.

This post has been edited by locke: Aug 15 2009, 12:37 PM
TSrexis
post Aug 15 2009, 10:59 PM

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QUOTE(bgeh @ Aug 15 2009, 01:27 AM)
But you wanted a more technical discussion, and you're veering into the politics of the thing, every time another technical problem with solar is brought up, which is probably RWI, no?
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And another point made here too.

The challenge here is to develop alternative energy to be practical enough that even without government intervention, people will still use it.

Just like what above mentioned, how to get those energy into the car without giving up any performance and comfort. We already have the technology to make a car run without fossil fuel and with even higher performance, but we just can't make it cheap enough.
Cheesenium
post Aug 15 2009, 11:44 PM

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QUOTE(tgrrr @ Aug 14 2009, 12:55 PM)
I remember hearing about hydropower and it's potential in Malaysia since secondary school. Ask any student about electricity generation in Malaysia and they think of hydropower. But after 2 decades why our utilization of hydropower is dismally low?
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If im not wrong,hydroelectric is expensive and takes a long time to build as it needs time for the soil to set properly or the concrete to harden to the level they want.
TSrexis
post Aug 16 2009, 08:58 AM

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QUOTE(locke @ Aug 15 2009, 12:28 PM)
You know what, Malaysia already got a surplus of energy.
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Please note that it is only Peninsular Malaysia that has surplus, while Sabah and Sarawak towns are having daily blackout. Constructing an underwater cable could at least help utilizing those extra power.

It is true that no point to develop expensive alternative energy just to waste it. It should go two way, efficient use of energy must receive attention as well.

This post has been edited by rexis: Aug 16 2009, 09:00 AM
locke
post Aug 16 2009, 12:32 PM

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QUOTE(rexis @ Aug 16 2009, 08:58 AM)
Please note that it is only Peninsular Malaysia that has surplus, while Sabah and Sarawak towns are having daily blackout. Constructing an underwater cable could at least help utilizing those extra power.

It is true that no point to develop expensive alternative energy just to waste it. It should go two way, efficient use of energy must receive attention as well.
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Peninsular has surplus. East Malaysia has even more surplus compare to peninsular Malaysia. Please read link below, the underwater cable is to supply from East Malaysia to peninsular Malaysia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakun_Hydroelectric_Project

The blackouts are probably caused by the poor grid maintainence since East Malaysia has huge land with hard to access terrain and low population density. Who knows one of the electric pole is knock down by an elephant in the middle of the jungle or something.



profdrahhen
post Aug 16 2009, 01:17 PM

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Nuclear power.. ^^

Click here for more Nuclear Power?

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TSrexis
post Aug 16 2009, 10:15 PM

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QUOTE(locke @ Aug 16 2009, 12:32 PM)
Peninsular has surplus. East Malaysia has even more surplus compare to peninsular Malaysia. Please read link below, the underwater cable is to supply from East Malaysia to peninsular Malaysia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakun_Hydroelectric_Project

The blackouts are probably caused by the poor grid maintainence since East Malaysia has huge land with hard to access terrain and low population density. Who knows one of the electric pole is knock down by an elephant in the middle of the jungle or something.
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The project is expected to be completed by 2010.

Before any hydro-electric dam is functional, we are running diesel power plants here.

You are prolly right about the power grid thou, but we have poor grid in peninsular, and even worst grid in the East Malaysia.

And about the underwater power transmission cable, there maybe isn't any urgency to complete it, because peninsular already have surplus, TNB already signed contract with IPP to buy all their powers for so and so years, they can't get rid of them just like that due to legal issues. But for Bakun Dam, it is vital for powering up East Malaysia properly, people are living in the dark here.

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Added on August 26, 2009, 5:37 pm
QUOTE(profdrahhen @ Aug 16 2009, 01:17 PM)
Nuclear power.. ^^
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Nuclear power is generally not classified as alternative energy.

BTW, first post updated for more relevant content.

This post has been edited by rexis: Aug 26 2009, 05:37 PM

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