xx

This post has been edited by ezralimm: Aug 4 2009, 04:52 PM

Awww.. thank you thank you


I am trying to make the thread more politically correct. This time i used as few negatives as possible. I've integrated some suggestions. and I also tried to make it more succinct and to the point. I dont think i can simplify it any further.

Read carefully: Nobody is giving a "theory" for love.

The thread is really about how to approach women.

Love blossoms when it blossoms. This thread is not about that.



I gotta admit, this thread isnt for everyone... But for a majority of people, just looking at candid videos of themselves is uncomfortable. You get to see yourself compared to other people.


Even if you dont know what girls want... you should know what you want.
and I am not just talking about physical characteristics here.
The whole "look at yourself in the mirror" was kinda rhetorical in a way.


Eg:

If the guy staring back at you in the mirror is an effeminate/feminine shy scrawny frail emo b1tch....

If the guy staring back at you in the mirror is an obese, disproportionate, lazy, smelly excuse for a human being...

If the guy you see in candid facebook videos cant even project his voice properly...slouches with no confidence and talks like a loser...




^realizing stuff like the above is the real motivator for change.


Some people really ARE deluded... but most arent. And upon looking at themselves from a third person's view, will recognize their weaknesses.


I am far from perfect. But not too long ago I was very far from perfect ... seriously. The catalyst for change exists in self awareness.

This post has been edited by ezralimm: Jul 25 2009, 10:50 AM

^See red bolded text: That's what I've been saying all along!


So Jamien... Let me ask you... What if a "brave" guy with lots of "guts" were to approach you at a social f unction. But he is 10cm+ shorter than you, and 5kg lighter. His intentions were as pure as anything. He's in his late 20s and has never been in a relationship. He is desperate. He talks well. He has good social skills. He has lots of friends. You find him interesting to talk to. Then, he asks you to dance... will you accept??? Sure, you're flattered...but at the end of the day, you do not consider him a potential partner (i am assuming you are a reasonably attractive woman with options).


Im not telling anyone to be more outgoing or more shy.
You are who you are.
Just like you cant generally change your height/skin color, you cannot change your personality type.

It's not about being outgoing or shy. It is about being the best that you can be. Developing masculine features...both physical and mental. If you are thriving, things will flow naturally for you....regardless if you are outgoing or shy... It simply doesnt matter.

I'd like to think it's all about guts...but in reality it simply isnt. Guys who have guts do so because they are thriving. It shows in their personality. They know that girls want them. Thus they are confident and have "guts".


The socially incompetant loser who doesnt go out much, has few friends, feeds himself crap, and wanks to tentacle porn every night would be nervous around girls...because he KNOWS consciously/subconsciously that girls dont find him attractive. Even if he did have "guts" (as you call it), and were to approach a girl with confidence...he knows that he couldnt maintain a decent conversation.

Hence my emphasis on #2. Physical, mental and emotional wellbeing.

Also, even if you are the bravest guy in the world... it is very difficult to aim out of your league. Sure you can try...but you know it wouldnt work. So yeah, pick your targets wisely... You know what you are game for.

Look, the game of love is cruel... but this is reality as I see it. You cannot change your height... but you can develop your personality and body. Physical, mental and emotional wellbeing will all make you a more attractive person to girls. When you are attractive you will find that more girls will want to talk to you. Or as Jamien herself puts it "If she likes talking to you you'll know."

This post has been edited by ezralimm: Jul 26 2009, 12:34 AM

Oh For Fvck Sake...let's not get caught in semantics here:

USE WHATEVER WORDS YOU WANT IF IT MAKES YOU HAPPY.

I dont know why you people are so sensitive to the word "change".

Anyway:
1) Change yourself.
2) Enhance yourself.
3) Improve yourself.

If you are scrawny, then change/enhance/improve yourself by eating well and exercising.
If you are socially isolated, then change/enhance/improve yourself by going out more and empathizing.
If you cannot seem to hold a conversation, then change/enhance/improve yourself by controlling your bad habits (eg. late night gaming), sleep well and be in a healthy mental state.

This post has been edited by ezralimm: Jul 26 2009, 12:39 AM

RE: Plagiarism
These ideas are my own. I have been blogging about similar themes for some time now.

RE: Meaning of the word "thriving"
I use the word as it is used in the English language. Please refer to any conventional dictionary.

Look, I dont mind whatever ad hominems you throw at me, but that claim (large bolded text^) is not true.

RE: Bolded text above^

I speak as a 23 year old whom, just like everyone else, is trying to make the most out of his life. I have personally experienced a very severe eating disorder (I was 45kg/174cm at one point) and I saw the game of love from an underdog's perspective in my late teens.

As I overcame my eating disorder, and put real emphasis into making myself a better man, by eating well, exercising, sleeping well, and mixing and mingling... I realized how women would interact with me differently.

I share what I know from experience. I speak with conviction that being successful/thriving in life will show not only in your physical body, but also your mind and emotional state as well. It's not about being outgoing or shy. It is about thriving, knowing that your life has purpose and drive. When you walk your own path, women will notice it. It's really hard to explain, but at the end of the day, it is what seems to really work. I dont believe in pickup lines or anything superficial/temporary. I believe in core values that are universally appreciated not just by women, but by people as a whole.

When you embrace the world and all it's realities. No escapism: When you dont hide behind fantasy (games/anime/manga) and become mature of mind. When you dont give yourself soothing lies that deviate you from the truth. When you expunge the childish fears that hold you back. You start to take control of your life...and when you do so, you will find the strength to make real changes in your life. You no longer see the world through rose tinted glasses. Your personality develops/changes/matures/improves (whatever word you want to use).

Women seem to have a sixth sense. They know if you are mature of mind the minute you open your mouth. The way you carry yourself also changes. I cannot explain it...but im sure other men have walked the same path.

Believe it or not, I do write with the intent of helping others. And I believe that self-actualization is the first step in self improvement.

Now look, different people will have different experiences...and im sure my experiences may not apply to you and probably some others. If you have experiences you would like to share... or lessons learnt from experiences... I look forward to hearing them, for diversity of ideas is always good.


RE: Ad hominems / personal attacks / flames
I would appreciate restraint in using personal attacks. I dont want this thread to become a flamewar. Do know that it reflects on the mentality of the person using them.

RE: My personal life
I have never disclosed my personal life on this forum as I post with my real name. Yes, I am really Ezra Limm. I do discuss my personal life online, but on a different forum, and with a pseudonym.

RE: WHy I write
This is a hobby. I write on my free time. I am quite busy in real life and sometimes it's just nice to forget about work and social commitments and give myself time to think and write. Why do people paint? Why do people write songs? Why do people go into photography? Why do writers write? lol... perhaps it's a calling.. but at the end of the day, i just like to write


Dickson Poon:

Yeah, I do hope to get this published one day. THe first version (v1: what girls really want in a man) and the second version (v2: the real game of love), were far far far too crude for publishing. This is my third attempt. I have removed as much of the negatives as posible. I try to avoid making people feel bad....though I think i have reached the limit of what is possible - for the message has to get through in the end. This is the third version of the article... it is no longer a wall of text, and is a lot more positive than v1 and v2.

---

Added on July 26, 2009, 11:59 amThanks for the feedback!


I cant stand david de angelo. He blabbers waaaaaay to much and frankly, he's not a very good public speaker. He's just not very charismatic and doesnt hold people's attention well...and reads off a script most of the time.


I've only watched a few of his videos.


The one below provided the inspiration for this article:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--I4_huH9Rc


This post has been edited by ezralimm: Jul 26 2009, 12:00 PM

Dude. Watch his other videos.. The full ones. Im telling ya. His points could be summarized in like 2mins...for every half hour of blabbering.

I have to add that david deangelo deals with different content from what I am doing.

Go watch his videos. Summarize his points. Im sure they are differernt from mine.

Look, david's videos are more acceptable as he never touches on sensitive issues. What he speaks is true... There are ways and mannerisms that women do find attractive. But I go one level deeper than that. IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, there is only so much that "guts" and "mannerisms" and "posture" could do in increasing your chances with women. At the end of the day it still boils down to the ability to convey an image of success in life. David avoids this as his customers are all paying to see his shows...and he sure as hell doesnt want anyone to feel bad.

I focus on the individual. The core person.

David does eventually touch on similar themes as me.... but he sugar coats it in 1hr+ speeches.

Bottom line end of the day: women dont like losers.

The difference between me and david is that I focus on the characteristics of people who are thriving in life. Something that david wouldnt do directly in front of paying customers. He can talk till the cows come home about confidence, being well groomed, well mannered, having a good posture, and conveying self-worth.... It does not change the fact that underlying all those core elements is physical, mental and emotional wellbeing.


What david deangelo talks about is really easy to follow only IF you are already thriving physically, mentally and emotionally. A hapless loser will not be able to follow david's advice even though he feels good listening to it and reading about it.

David Deangelo avoids talking about those core issues to his paying customers as he KNOWS that many people will be hurt. So yeah. If you want to focus on talking about the superficial because it doesnt hurt your sensitive fragile egos, then go watch David Deangelo. like I said, this thread is not for everyone.

This post has been edited by ezralimm: Jul 26 2009, 01:52 PM

I respect your opinion.

Now, I do also appreciate constructive feedback. No ad hominems. If you disagree with any part of the article, do let me know.

---

Added on July 26, 2009, 3:28 pmWoa.What a claim. FFS do you ppl get kicks for putting words in my mouth?

Anyway,I have never claimed to understand women. I still dont. And I probably never will.

That said, I do know what women seem to like in men whom they consider as potential romantic partners.

eg.
1) Men who are secure (emotionally/financially/mentally)
2) Men who know their path/purpose in life.
3) Men who are physically thriving and are reasonably well built (not necessarily muscular, but not frail or too obese)
4) Men who are mentally sound and intellegent - the minute they open their mouth it shows
5) Men who are connected...with friends and support networks. It adds to their personality


...and what women dont like as potential romantic partners:

1) Men who are insecure.
2) Men who are both shorter and lighter than they are.
3) Men who are mentally not thriving... lack of friends.. too much fantasy... lack of social life... it shows when they open their mouths.
4) Men who are not connected...lack of friends and support networks... no personality development.

This post has been edited by ezralimm: Jul 26 2009, 03:34 PM

I agree completely on this one.
Women place less emphasis on physical appearances than men.

They SENSE a man's self-worth. Not just by physical appearances, but by the way the man interacts and projects himself to the world.

The man who is in control of his life and is THRIVING, with lots of friends, a healthy body, a healthy mind and a healthy social life, will USUALLY be attractive to women...

Just like men want to know more about the pretty/hot girls...women want to know more about MEN who are as described above^

The boy who hasnt yet grown up....eats shit, doesnt exercise, reads manga all day, plays games till 4am everyday, and doesnt go out much, and has almost no friends, will be quite unattractive. Not only reflected by his physical appearance... but by his mind, and ability to maintain conversations... the ability to empathize, click and connect will suffer if you dont have enough sleep and social interaction.

Just like nobody seems to want to ask the ugly girls out for a date... women simply dont want to get to know more about BOYS who are as described above^


LOVE IS BLIND. Attractiveness really doesnt matter when it comes to true love.


BUT

Women are very picky with who they fall in love with...just as guys are very picky with who they are willing to ask out on a date.

This post has been edited by ezralimm: Jul 26 2009, 03:46 PM

Okay, we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one


I think that a man's self worth is determined by:

1) Physical well being
2) Mental well being
3) Emotional well being
4) Career and security


They are all subjective things. But ya get the jist of the message.

---

Added on July 26, 2009, 3:57 pmActually, I was not sure if the title "how to approach" a girl is even suitable given the contents of the thread. I was simply oout of ideas on that one. Perhaps you could give some suggestions on what a title should be.

If you notice... it's really about how to get girls to want to approach you

This post has been edited by ezralimm: Jul 26 2009, 04:03 PM

As I said, those features are SUBJECTIVE!!!

Arseholes and jackarses and vagabonds may have other features that compensate for their inadequacies.. NOBODY IS PERFECT.

The arsehole may have a body to die for...and the aura of confidence and masculinity that make girls sweat.

oh ffs stop nitpicking.

that was just an example.


The core reasoning that a man's self worth is determined by those four SUBJECTIVE characteristics still stands.

whateverla.

Alright. Enough. Im not going to reply to this anymore.

Post some constructive feedback about the main article and I will reply. Do quote what you have a problem with.

WHERE THE HELL IN THE MAIN ARTICLE AM I CONTRADICTING MYSELF?

Why do you keep trying to discredit me?

Did i hit a nerve?

Dude, im not trying to insult anyone. Just posting what I see as truth.


From now on I will not argue on semantics. You can make all the claims you want. I dont give a shit anymore. It's pointless arguing over semantics.

The words mean what they mean in the english language. Check a dictionary if you dont understand.

---

Added on July 26, 2009, 4:53 pmBelieve whatever you want if discrediting me makes you feel better about yourself.
It does not change the validity of anything I have said in the main article.

I cannot discuss any personal experiences here with my real name.

If you really really want to know, add me on facebook or something and I wouldnt mind having a chat sometime. My name is Ezra Limm on facebook.

This post has been edited by ezralimm: Jul 26 2009, 04:53 PM

Nope. Please quote the constructive feedback you claim exists.

There isnt any. What appears to be constructive feedback, when you examine it, is just a plain simple personal attack / ad hominem / flame.

Claiming that something is wrong/illogical is fine. But then back it up. DOnt just say that my whole case is wrong (ie. "The article is flawed". "Your point of view is deluded".). Those arent constructive feedback. Quote me. Respond to each point that I raise. Give your reasonings as to why the point is wrong.

Claims that my thread are "belittling" or "hurtful" are valid claims. I do not deny that they may offend some people...but such claims do not affect the validity of my statements.


I am not going to answer your question. If you think it can be judged by others, then it can. If you think it cannot, then it cannot.

I mean exactly what I said.

Self-worth is synonymous with self esteem. It is immeasurable and subjective. You know how much self esteem you have. And when you have self esteem, others will notice it in your behaviour and personality..... So it's not like girls are going to say "oh his self worth is 10/10". No, it doesnt work that way. It is subjective... and having self worth affects your behaviour in ways that are positive.





The message is consistent.

IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, self worth / self esteem naturally builds up in people who are thriving - being physically, mentally and emotionally healthy.


In other words, self-worth/self-esteem is a natural consequence of having lots of friends, being reasonably fit, and being mentally well.

---

Added on July 26, 2009, 7:27 pmJust so it's clear. I am not a PUA. I dont want to be a PUA. And I am morally opposed to the idea of being a PUA.
Women are human beings and do have feelings.

I dont believe in "closing" (in PUA terminology) with women. There is nothing to close. WHen a relationship starts, it starts. Sex is part and parcel of a normal loving relationship. It's not just about getting action from women.



This post has been edited by ezralimm: Jul 26 2009, 07:27 PM

i give up, it's pointless trying to argue with you. I just presented my points as I saw reality to be...

You can accuse me of being objective or whatever. It doesnt matter. The core reasoning in the main article stands. Nobody has challenged them yet despite many personal attacks and declarations of logical fallacies.


SO what if it is objective/subjective/ambiguous. It doesnt fvcking matter.



I stand by what I say:

Generally:

1) Being a freaking loner with no friends and not going out is bad for mental health and your social life.
2) Eating sh1t, not exercising and playing video games to the wee hours of the morning will make your physical self more unattractive to the opposite sex.
3) Women do not want sociopath nutcases who cant hold a decent conversation with another human being.


In control of one's life + Healthy body + Healthy mind + Healthy emotional state = THRIVING



If you think that to thrive in life does not include having a healthy body... SO BE IT. im not forcing you to change your views.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with making generalizations if they are true. Do note that generalizations, by definition, will have exceptions (which is why they are not called "absolute truths" but rather "generalizations" in the first place.)

For example: I could say that men generally prefer women with hourglass figures. It does not mean that ALL men prefer women with hourglass figures. Some guys like their girls chubby and pear shaped with a nice round b000tay and love to cuddle.

But the generalization holds. Most men really do prefer women with hourglass figures.


Now, you could argue that some guys who have...

*no social life, eats shit, dont exercise, sleeps at 3am everyday, doesnt know how to groom himself, and is emotionally insecure*

...are building relationships with girls who are reasonably attractive and have other options (ie. guys willing to date them).

But it is not the general truth. In reality, the guys with those issues are very likely to have their choice selection of partners (ie. The girls they are interested in are not interested in them). Im not saying that they are doomed to be single all their life...Most people will adjust their standards (the hot girls with options were out of their league) and date/ask-out girls who are willing to go out with them.






Let me start with an analogy. Let's say I were to write a story. "Little Red Riding Hood". You have all the right in the world to comment on my writing style. It is subjective (ie. open to YOUR personal interpretation). If you find that my writing style is boring, then that is your personal opinion. I accept that. And I will try to make it more interesting.

Constructive criticism is different. If you were to say that my story doesnt make sense because "the big bad wolf eats Little Red Riding Hood in the second chapter but she comes back to life in the fourth chapter", then that would be a genuine constructive criticism.

It's not to say that you subjective feedback on writing isnt valued. Believe it or not, it actually is. I have been trying very hard to make the message as politically correct / non-offensive / non-belittling as possible. But there is a limit that I will reach sooner or later.

QUOTE(silverhawk): I agree. The delivery style is not perfect. I am still trying to figure out a way to not make it a massive wall of text (like my mind map one)...while not offending/belittling/hurting people and their fragile egos. Silver, I hope to meet you in real life one day. Would be an interesting conversation. I wonder how you interpret things the way you do and nitpick on perceived inconsistencies.

QUOTE(jamien): True, my work is not perfect. But im glad that jamien realizes that I cannot stretch my points too much as people would be put off by a wall of text. I am not david deangelo and his sugar coated, feel-good, wrinting style. I am simply more point blank. Some people will be hurt. Hence the disclaimer, and hence the numerous ad hominem responses. I think some people have fragile egos or image issues.

QUOTE(deadlocks): IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, a man's self worth is determined by the factors I have mentioned. Note that all those factors are subjective as well. What is healthy? What is mentally healthy? What is physically healthy? What is emotionally healthy? They are all subjective things. You know what YOUR PERSONAL definition of those traits are. I use the word subjective as it is used in the english language. I am referring to the fact that those traits cannot be measured quantitatively, but rather perceived in the mind of the beholder. I did not define anything. I merely pointed out that IN MY OPINION (yes, i have a right to an opinion too!) "self worth" is a natural consequence of those subjective (non-definable) traits. If you disagree, fine.

QUOTE(deadlocks): I hold that you are just nitpicking on semantics. Ill leave it up to the other forumers reading this to decide. Anyway. Subjective or not it is irrelevant to the core topics of this article.


This thread is far more straightforward. I realized that if I were to elaborate on every single thing on the mind map, I would need about four posts to do so due to word limits on this forum. Too big wall of text. Not worth the effort. Nobody would read it.

The contents of this thread is pretty much a summary of the mind map in the other one. It boils down to physical, mental and emotional wellbeing.


I want to meet you in real life one day. TT or something. We would have an interesting conversation.

ANyway, I was not "defining it for people" I was just expressing my opinion. Note I even added "IN MY PERSONAL OPINION" in caps to the sentence. FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS A HUMAN RIGHT. If you want to use that kind of an argument, then almost opinion on this forum is wrong.

I have the right to express myself. You have the right not to listen. You have the right to disagree if it means something else to you.

Also, I did not say that physical/mental/emotional health = self worth. I DID NOT SAY THAT. I said that self worth builds as a natural consequence of being in good physical/mental/emotional health.

I DID NOT MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT having self worth WITHOUT good physical/mental/emotional health.

I DID NOT MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT some people having self worth WITHOUT good physical/mental/emotional health.
(yes, i agree some people do have high self worth even though they are in poor physical/mental/emotional health)

Your logic is non-sequirtur!

Dont put words in my mouth laa... If this thread makes you bitter, then dont read it...but ffs stop putting words in my mouth.



^see reply to Deadlocks, and the concept of generalization. Yeah, exceptions do exist...but they are not the norm!

This post has been edited by ezralimm: Jul 27 2009, 09:52 AM

That is a good point. give me some time to think about it.

I appreciate you bringing it up.


PS: tangible is not the word you're looking for, as it implies something concrete.... after all that debate about being subjective. lololol

This post has been edited by ezralimm: Jul 27 2009, 10:07 AM

Totally.

I was thinking similarly to that.
I am a staunch realist. I believe in realism, not romanticism.
I also believe in "survival of the fittest".

^that said, I am human, and I do wish to fall in love with someone I find worthy one day. I strive towards that. it is my drive. I believe in love and monogamy...so i guess it's important to find someone truly worthy.

I've been getting the feeling that some people fell uncomfortable reading the article as it goes against the hope that they have in falling in love with their ideal partner.

I gotta admit, reality can be harsh... But waking up to that reality is the first step in making real changes in one's life. Changes for the better.

I write with a clear conscience...but sadly truth is not politically correct. There will be winners in the game of love, and there will be losers.

If you take comfort in knowing that there are EXCEPTIONS that derive from the intangible intricacies of life... such as the shy introverted, WOW addicted, obese loner who hooked up with a hot girl... Or the "old uncle" with bad physical/mental/emotional health who has a hot wife... then i guess this article is not for you.

I believe that my generalizations hold, and that exceptions will never be the norm.

This post has been edited by ezralimm: Jul 27 2009, 10:18 AM