Hi,

just a simple question that i not very sure, for AVR, setting for speaker size, either small or large, this refer to speaker size? or other meaning? if speaker size, which measurement need to refer?

normally floorstander = large and bookshelf = small..

I remember reading from some forum, if I have a sub, set it to small even if it is a floorstand.

You're referring to the setting after the calibration function right (e.g. Audyssey)? What AVR are u using?

Normally "large" is for full range speakers. Meaning your speakers can go down to 20 Hz. If your speaker cannot do this then set to "small". Even if the system sets your speaker to "large" generally I see the recommendation to still set to "small" (especially if you have a sub).

This post has been edited by jchong: Jun 23 2009, 04:07 PM

im using yammy V1900.

wat you mean is that it refer to speaker frequancy and not the speaker size? if all my 7 speaker frequancy cant go down to 20 Hz, mean i set to small?

does speaker frequency can go down to 20hz??i tot only sub can do?

This post has been edited by benjaminn78: Jun 23 2009, 04:26 PM

Yup, it refers to speaker frequency not the size. So you are using the YPAO function on the Yammy.

Only very high end speakers can go down to 20Hz. Most people cannot afford speakers like that. So that's why sub became popular, the sub makes it affordable for people to get low bass.

So yup you should set your speakers to "small".

This post has been edited by jchong: Jun 23 2009, 04:34 PM

Aiks...then I also need to set to small..and hear the different..

but my sub also low end 1..

Yeah do try the different setting and let us know the result.

are there any big different if i change to large? i try, but no really different, maybe my ear not sensitive.

Even if ur Floorstander can go lower then 20hz it is recommended to set it to 'small' if you have a sub. This will allow ur front speakers to be more efficient & more wattage is used for the higher range (80 hz above)while the sub is dedicated to playing the LFE & 80hz below.

The difference is that ur bass will be less muddled since there is only 1 source (Sub) instead of 3 sources.... difficult to detect as bass is non directional but if u listen carefully can hear difference. Ur front will oso sound clearer as there is not much bass output.

I have tried setting to small..but I don't like the bass...
Maybe when I got myself a 12" sub..hehe

Now still prefer to also have bass out from my front.

Same with me, prefer to have impact from front also. So, I set all speakers to SMALL and tune down the cutover to 60Hz. Now I feel full sound from all speakers. I tried cutover at 80Hz but I thought the sound was too thin from LCR speakers.

If u have sub, set all ur speakers to small. Crossover is up to u but usually from 60-80. Sub meant to handle low frequencies so let the bugger do its job. When speakers relief from the heavy burden of low freq, they will handle mid n high better. Ur amp will also thank you.

This post has been edited by arremie: Jun 24 2009, 05:58 PM

Really there is no best way to set it. But generally if you have small speakers like bookshelf then set it to small. If you have large full range floor stander, then by all means set it to full and set the sub cross over to slightly with your main speaker.

Some prefer so set it to small even if they have large full range floor stander speakers, but if your speakers is very capable, then it would be a waste. Why spend so much on floorstander if you are not going to utilise its capability. The other thing is also if the sub is not really good one, then setting it to small would result in poor low frequencies from the sub which would otherwise being produce by the floorstanders.

In fact a very reputable sub maker REL recommend setting the speakers to full and connect the sub using high level input. That way the sub becomes a bass extension of your main speakers. But this set up is mostly for audiophile.

Even if ur front has a 10" woofer, best to set it to small. It has been proven the best setup for a system with a sub. No matter how good ur front can produce the low, it can never beat a sub which is meant for that. Why argue

Proven by who...with what speaker setup? Each and every speakers have different capabilities and sound profile. To say that there is only one way to set it up already shows how inexperience that person is. And your assumption that all subs produce bass better because the are built for that purpose is absolutely wrong! Most subs below Rm3000 can only produce sub-par bass. Loud don't equates to good. A good set of floorstanders can produce much better bass then a low quality sub, so why cut out the bass from these floorstanders and get bullshit bass from the subs?

Hey dude...not everybody can afford sub above 3k. Just bcoz u talk so much about getting SVS (which no where to be seen until now just talk only) doesn't mean u can pass judgement to all system. A sub is a sub which meant to play low frequencies but not all average dude speakers can play low frequencies better than a sub. Just bcoz u hv money n use remoteless 12r only for toilet, don't look down on others.

We are all here to give good and useful advice for all average users and not for show off talk cock jackass only who thinks what he thinks only is right and only his system is the best so only his setup should be followed.



...........
Ok back to topic people, yes u can google around for the speaker size setup. Most of the recommendation is to set ur speakers to small. As with the crossover u can try what best sounded to you. Anyway there's no definite rules saying u can't set the speaker size to big. That's totally up to you. In the end what sounded best to you IS the best to you

yes, my vote goes here too

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Added on June 24, 2009, 10:23 pmu mean since quoting from BAX to multiple logistic vendors until now?

or keeping promoting wat they have, or going to have or selling?

boss remi...CHILL LA !

mali abang sini... i pass u 1 gula-gula... dun sour grape



This post has been edited by megatron007: Jun 24 2009, 10:23 PM

Good reading....

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/speaker-setup-guidelines/

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Added on June 24, 2009, 10:26 pm

This post has been edited by arremie: Jun 24 2009, 10:26 PM

What is your problem?

I am just correcting the statement that the main speakers should be set to small on the AV setting if you have a sub. I don't know which guru did you hear it from. That is absolutely wrong! This statement is true if you have smaller speakers like bookshelf or sat system, but for a full range floorstander and have your sub compliments it. For eg, if you have a floor standers with two 10" woofers and a 12" sub. Which one do you think will move more air? Should you cut off the bass for your floorstanders by setting it to small and just let the sub take overs. Its absolutely ignorant of you to just follow an advice from the internet blindly and not know what the speakers are capable of.

You are damn right not everyone can afford a sub above Rm3K. But that makes it even more critical when we are talking about a less capable sub. Most of these subs are good for movies but are hardly musical at all. At blindly setting the the speakers to small (because that is the only way to do it when you have a sub) is absolutely silly by not trying out what the floor standers can do.

One more thing....maybe I can't afford the SVS and is all bullshit pretending I am trying to get one. But I think you are kurang ajar for looking down on me. There is nothing i have to prove to you here. But i just can't stand seeing people giving silly advice that "the best way is to set your speaker to small when you have a sub even if your sub is a floorstander" bullshit. And trying your share a different opinions makes me cocky.

kids

ok people carry on....u r smart enuf to judge for urself

Peace lah, bro.

Erm.... on this setting abt 'Large' or 'Small', the SVS Subwoofer Quick Start Guide and Problem solving leaflet mentioned that we shall set to 'Small'

Guide #7 : Initial audio/video receiver settings : Ensure your speakers are enabled in your AVR's setup menu, including the subwoofer naturally! If adjustable, set your AVR's bass management to 80hz and set all speakers to 'Small' to ensure optimal use of your sub and speakers too.

Unless we have Revel Ultima Salon 2 or similar speakers for all round, then diff story ler.....By then, I would surely buy Wilson Benesch Torus (Infrasonic Generator) ... Okie... time for me to dream on

Here is how the specialist from REL ( one of the best name in sub) would recommend you set up the sub.


It is helpful to know that you will almost always connect the REL to the input on the rear panel labeled “Hi Level.” The purpose of connecting to the speaker output terminals is one of the unique secrets of REL’s success. By connecting to the high level input on the REL from the amplifier, you build forward the sonic signature of your main system, including the tonal balance and timing cues of the entire electronics chain. In this way, the REL is fed the exact signal that is fed to the main speakers.

Theater and Film Applications:
For Dolby Digital AC-3® or other 5.1 theater systems, once the standard set-up for two-channel outlined above is complete, the LFE output from the processor or receiver should be connected to the low-level input and appropriate gain adjustments made. It may be necessary to take the crossover out of the low-level input using the “mode” switch if extra upper bass output is called for. Keep phase consistent with what was selected during high-level set-up by simply choosing the corresponding setting (1 = 2, 3 = 4). For this configuration, you must set the processor to the “large” or “full range” setting for the left and right speakers in order for the REL to receive the bass signal via the high-level cable. In this configuration, the REL provides support for both the left and right speakers for two-channel listening, and support for the LFE when movies are playing. Most processors will allow you to defeat the subwoofer output when listening in the two-channel mode. The effect of this set-up is one of greatly increased dynamics in the mid-bass range; no bass bloat; and a greater degree of space and timing from the Foley effects. For an even greater sense of space and impact, a second woofer connected in parallel to the center channel will prove to be a dramatic improvement as well. And if that is not enough fun, a rear sub, both to support the rear channel speakers as well as to evenly distribute LFE through the room, truly completes the full-range sonic picture for state-of-the-art film reproduction. A comprehensive set-up paper for home theater will be coming very soon.

This guy really confused .....maybe bcoz he knows too much

Anyway for u people who doesn't understand what "REL" is talking about, that is totally a different setup using SPEAKER LEVEL INPUT and not LINE LEVEL INPUT as most of us use for sub connection.

My point is that there more than one best way to connect the sub or speaker setting for the AV? It all depends on your speakers and sub capability. Simply saying that the best way to is to set the speaker to small when you have a sub is just not true.

For line level input to sub (using avr sub out)...setting all speakers to small still the most recommended setup

Just don't be afraid to try out other setting. Life is like a box of chocolate, you never know what you gonna get!

To be outstanding, you have to be extraordinary!

This post has been edited by lightning69: Jun 25 2009, 02:10 AM

Whoa who whoa take it easy HT seniors. I wanted to ask the same question as what TS asked. I don't have woofer but i set my speaker size to LARGE, so i have the better bass respond and better soundstage.

....toothache

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Added on June 25, 2009, 2:10 amGood call bro

This post has been edited by arremie: Jun 25 2009, 02:10 AM

Would it be correct to say that its an absolute waste to buy a full range floorstander speakers if we gonna pair it with a sub? Afterall all we gonna set it to small speaker so technically a bookshelf is more than enough?

Really need expert advise on this.

i am no expert but i have things in my mind to share, correct ,e if i'm wrong.

I think for a floorstander, even if we set to small, doesn't mean the sound is small. Compared to a bookshelf, floorstander details is higher because the driver is bigger and gives better details compared to the bookshelves. But we still need all the kaboom, bang, boom sound from the woofer. Woofer > floorstand in bass/low frequency

if puny floor stand like mine set big or small also doesnt matter

sound still crappy

Setting to small simply means the low bass frequency is not sent to that speaker. Exactly how much low bass is cut out depends on your AVR. In my Onkyo the cross over is user selectable, so for my mains I set to small and cross over at 40 Hz, meaning only 40 Hz and above is sent to the mains.

As for my sub, the LFE is set to 100 Hz meaning sub will handle all low bass up to 100 Hz.

So, up to 40 Hz handled by sub exclusively. From 40 Hz - 100 Hz handled by sub and my mains. Above 100 Hz by mains only.

I hope the above example clarifies how the bass management works in an AVR.

This post has been edited by jchong: Jun 25 2009, 09:25 AM

Question:
You said: "So, up to 40 Hz handled by sub exclusively. From 40 Hz - 100 Hz handled by sub and my mains. Above 100 Hz by mains only."
You sure about that? All this time I thought when you set Mains to say 60Hz, no matter what crossover setting you have in the SUB, the highest it can go is 60Hz. This is because the bass management in the AVR only sends 60Hz and below to LFE channel, higher freq to MAINS. If your claim is true, I have to reassess my bass management setting. Tq.

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Added on June 25, 2009, 10:24 amjust to share something ... my old yammy avr rx-v595 had all 5 channels factory set to LARGE. I'm not sure what cutover freq actually was for Large and small because the avr won't let you set it. I used bookshelf LCR and when set to large, the sound was fuller compared to small. I left it to Large and was happy with it. Large and small really confusing in this case because why Large setting on a bookshelf give a fuller sound than small setting. What Large and small actually means? Is it just freq cutover or also include dynamic range and other sonic parameters? If the latter is true, it makes sense to set Large for bigger speakers.

This post has been edited by putih: Jun 25 2009, 10:24 AM

You have a point there, but a lot of good bookshelves speakers use the same drivers as their bigger brother floorstanders and some bookshelves even have 2 mid-bass driver. Since the mains are not really required to produce heavy bass, getting a good set of bookshelves speakers would be cheaper.
And also cutting out those low frequency to the mains will effectively reduce all the kaboom, bang , boom sound form the main.

This post has been edited by lightning69: Jun 25 2009, 10:58 AM

Sorry.. Tumpang a question here..

Even though using same drivers for both bookshelves and floorstanders, are they being set at the same crossover level?

Not necessary

Per my understanding LFE and base management is not the same. LFE is from the .1 channel while the base management is for the 5 channels. When you set the speaker to small and cross over frequency to 40Hz, all the signal from the 5 channels that is below 40Hz will be send to the subwoofer. Now for the LFE channel, when you sent to 100Hz, those signal above 100Hz from the LFE channel will be truncated. Usually you set this to the max (120Hz) and only will set it lower when you face some humming noise.

There are 2 separate settings for bass management, one LFE for the sub and one for all the rest (main, center and surround). You might be confusing between the two. For the mains, if you set at 60Hz that means only 60Hz and above will be played by the mains. Then in the separate LFE setting for sub, if you set at 60 Hz that means only 60Hz and below will be played by the sub.




To some extent it makes sense that "when set to large, the sound was fuller compared to small." When set to large your AVR will send full range frequency to your bookshelf speakers. So the performance is only limited by your bookshelf potential. So if your bookshelf can play down to 50 Hz then it will reproduce down to 50 Hz as sent by the AVR. However, if you set to small then maybe your AVR cuts off at 80 Hz (this will depend on your AVR) which means your bookshelf only playing 80 Hz and above and won't sound as full.

As to what large and small means, I think it is just freq cutover. But exactly what is the freq it cuts over that will depend on your AVR.

This post has been edited by jchong: Jun 25 2009, 04:35 PM

for the bold letter, do u mean the built in crossover in sub?

Nope not the sub's crossover. In your AVR there should be another setting for LFE. If you use this, then in your sub's built in crossover you put to the max possible (usually 120 Hz, depending on sub model) or if there is a 'direct' setting then to 'direct'.

I can't find this la. All I have is the crossover setting under same option with speaker size setting. Is it AVR dependant only high end model got this setting.

It might be AVR dependent.

So in your AVR can select speaker size for mains, center and surrounds only? No option related to subwoofer or LFE?

dont have la. i got speaker size, crossover, distance and db level only

paiseh....need to upgrade again la like this

I know Onkyo receiver have this. My 606 got this feature. Actually this will set the cross over for the LFE channel, not the F/C/S channels. Usually you will set it to the max possible which is 120 Hz in Onkyo case. If you set it lower, says 100 hz, those signal above 100 Hz will be filter off. According to the Onkyo manual, this is to reduce humming effect. If you have humming effect, you may set it lower or else use default 120 hz. Let me try to give some example :

Bass management setting :

Speaker type : Small
Cross over frequency : 40 Hz

Signal from F/C/S below 40 Hz channel to Subwoofer

LFE setting :

Cross over frequency : 100 Hz

Signal from LFE Channel above 100 Hz will be filter off. As LFE channel the frequency starts from 120 Hz, this mean signal from 100 to 120 Hz will be gone.

By the way, found some interesting article on bass management which quite a surprise to me. According to this article, it's better not to use the subwoofer output due to double filtering. Not sure if this is true.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/119794.html

This post has been edited by yfyap69: Jun 25 2009, 05:45 PM

some manuals states that

1 ) woofer size
- smaller than 6.5ins set to small
- larger than 6.5 ins set to large

2 ) cross over
- its better to refer to speaker specs freq handling
eg if freq is 50hz to 20khz then set set subwoofer freq at 50hz

3) if the av amp doesn't support individual speaker sub crossover setting
then it is better to get a speaker package of same brand, (best option)
or look for same frequency type of speakers if mix and match,

I read that article too, quite interesting. As for the double filtering, the article did say "Some subwoofers have LFE inputs that bypass the sub's filter. If you insist on using the sub out jack, you may want to use the sub's LFE input." I think if you connect to the LFE input then no issue.

No need to upgrade. AVR not having the LFE setting is not critical, because you can simply adjust using the sub's in built crossover.

I think only the onkies have the individual crossover setting for each speakers. that's why some went to onkyo for this additional feature.
wah .. u know how to use the word "paiseh" eh. not bad not bad.

As for the earlier arguments,
I set all my speakers to small even my mains could drive down to 37hz.
Crossover is set to 80hz even it's detected as 60hz on YPAO. Even though my speakers are capable of driving lower, I wouldn't want to waste the horse power from my amp, I would rather just let the "External Subs" AMP to drive anything lower that 80hz. Low freq needs higher power to drive (please correct me if I'm wrong).
By setting the speakers to small I'm not missing the details of the surrounding when the LFE takes place and amp will not stress out so will the fronts.

Above applies only for movies as the LFE does kicks in a lot. So it might draw quite an amount of "juice" from your AVR. Hence, we see most do suggest that you set your speakers to Small. *Anyway these would come from sub manufacturers* "They want you to appreciate their SUBs what! Right?"

On the other hand for music i guess it's pretty dependent on your mains, if it can drive and produces good bass, I guess by setting it large would give a a better sound reproduction and the sub is just only for the extension for the bass where the fronts are not capable of.

It doesn't really matter on how you would set your Speakers Size, But I do Agree that by setting them all to Small would be the best guideline, well you can try by having them set to large and see if you like them better that way. There's no actual way to do the setting.

Otherwise, might as well they don't give us the option of "large" or "small".

After reading this discussion, I set my speakers(R,C,L,RS,LS) from Large to Small. Then my Sony sub cut-off freq. at 150Hz.

Wow...the bass was better and more oomph....

My old Yamaha AVR(RX-V995) manual said set to Small speakers if you have a sub.

150Hz?! Are you using satelite speakers?

You set this 150Hz cut off in the sub or in the AVR?

Anyway, might not be necessary to set so high because I read that in movies the bass track for sub only goes up to 120Hz.

Yes, that's correct. The LFE channel only have up to maximum 120 Hz. However, if his satalite speaker is small, he may need to set it to 150 Hz.

the LFE setting n advanced setup for each channel LPF is demm complicated

for my pariah speakers

i just put front small = 80hz

centre n rear =100hz

and LFE=80hz..

read my AVR FAQ said the LFE is in this option is not the bass mgmt LFE

jialat ...confused

complicated and confused....that's where the fun is

I think you are setting it too high. Unless you got some humming sound, try setting it at 120 hz. If you set it at 80 Hz, that mean your AVR will cut off all signal above 80 Hz in your LFE channel. This is not the same as bass management setting LPF where you cut off certain frequency to channel it to the sub.

ya lo i just read in the forum nie

tomoro will put back to 120hz ...sigh tiring....