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Biology Human Cloning, Creation of a genetically identical copy

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SUSb3ta
post Jun 26 2009, 02:05 AM

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1 thing about cloning organs, it doesnt seem to me as easy as it sounds. say u want to clone a liver, how do you make the cell grow into a liver? usual sperm and egg when combined grow into a zygote which gradually grows into a human being where its cells undergo differentiation to form different working (sometimes not) organs to sustain life. the question is, how do you make the cloned cell turn into a liver, and how do u sustain the liver's growth without all other supporting organs of the human body?
SUSb3ta
post Jun 27 2009, 01:14 AM

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QUOTE(lin00b @ Jun 26 2009, 11:39 AM)
read up on stem cells.

basically, during our embryo stage, all cells are the same, there is no brain cell/muscle cell/skin cell etc. there is just cell. with the correct signals, these cells undergo specialization to be come whatever cell needed. theoretically (practically??) all you need is to get some stem cells, put them in a lab environment, provide nutrient, input signal, and viola - new organ then put in patient
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that is all in theory. what signals? hormones? (i dont think hormones initiate differentiation though. how do u isolate these so called "signals" and do we even know what "signal" sparks what kind of organ differentiation?) there are alot of unanswered questions. how will the cloned organs develop in-vitro when fed with nutrients? will the blood vessels and nutrient transport system be the same (and as efficient) as the human body? will the size shape of the organ be totally the same as the one on the human? i'm in the opinion that the development of the body and thus organs is affected by nature as much as nurture. personally i dont think an organ grown in-vitro, despite cloned will be identical to the host's.


SUSb3ta
post Jun 27 2009, 06:20 PM

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QUOTE(Thinkingfox @ Jun 27 2009, 05:22 PM)


Fourthly, by creating clones for therapeutic purposes, we're pushing the allowance of bad genes further. As it is now, with modern medical facilities, we as humans have already done everything we can to avoid the pressure from natural selection. When we are sick, we see the doctor, get the cure and we continue to live. In nature, an animal that suffers from a disease (and if it's antibody does cannot fight away the disease) will die and thus those genes that cannot tolerate that disease would not be passed on to the next generation. We, on the other hand, defy natural selection and continue to past those bad genes to the next generation. I'm not saying that we shouldn't do what we are doing. We as humans, are different from animals, because we are (or are supposed to be) morally higher than animals, and therefore, out of compassion, we save our fellow human being from death. But would it be right to go to that extent to avoid death? Should we do it until we risk overpopulation?
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i disagree with the natural selection point. as it is, cloning (organs or whole humans -if it even is possible) is a highly costly operation which makes it only possible for the rich and affluent. this means that only successful people who are "strongest" or more "powerful" will be able to afford it. the "weaker" or less successful people will have no way of cloning themselves or a part of themselves and therefore will not survive in the event of a deadly disease. natural selection at work.
SUSb3ta
post Jun 28 2009, 11:32 PM

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QUOTE(Thinkingfox @ Jun 28 2009, 04:49 AM)
What you say makes some sense. Yes, the rich are, in a way, the best in acquiring wealth. But then again it's hard to say that the rich have the best genes. Maybe it's intelligence, which is in inherited. But so many other things have to be taken into consideration. Upbringing also plays a part in determining one's future. And I wouldn't say that children born in the richest families have the best upbringing. For example, some people are born into riches but die in poverty because they do not know how to manage their riches.

Furthermore, a person can be rich by winning a lottery, or through a stroke of luck, become rich. For example, if you happen to inherit a piece of cheap land from your parents and keep it, and 30 years down the road, the government plans to build something big there, and is willing to compensate you with many zeros on a cheque. Well, then you've just hit the jackpot. Although it's rare, it happens. But this doesn't mean the person is in anyway, genetically superior to another.

Besides, the trend shows that the human population has been increasing exponentially in the last century. Why the last century? It coincides with the improvement of medical knowledge and techniques to an extent such that the number of births can exceed the number of deaths in the human population by a large ratio. If cloning were to be allowed, these people would make the human population increase even further than without cloning, because at any one time, those who are cloned will continue to live way beyond their years and when birth rate stays the same (if we assume that cloning has no effect on the present birth rate), the total number of humans will increase. And if the therapeutic cloning and organ transplant procedure becomes more affordable over time (say due to breakthroughs or the discovery of new medical methods), the rate of increase will also increase.

Ultimately, when overpopulation occurs, and if we don't find a solution (to overpopulation) by then, we would have to face the full force of natural selection, because it would then be a competition for inadequate resources. Therefore, I think it would be wise to postpone (if stopping is not an option) the usage of therapeutic cloning until we find a solution to overpopulation.
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humans are so developed that optimal "genes" or inheritance no longer matter. natural selection is simply survival of the fittest, the factor that gives one individual an edge over another. in the animal kingdom it may be strength. for humans, it may be wits, it may be wealth. simply put, the richest survive, regardless of genes and whatnot. there are no rules to this game of survival.
SUSb3ta
post Jun 29 2009, 03:33 PM

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QUOTE(Shadow Kun @ Jun 29 2009, 05:50 PM)
i don't think we could achieve immortality by "uploading our mind" into new bodies. imo, even if we can recreate our mind in another form, like digitally for example, it wouldn't really be ours, it's merely a copy of our memory while our true consciousness will always bound to our self. when we die, our consciousness ends there. the copied memory will be another version of our consciousness once transferred to another body, unnoticeable to the clone, but our own original self (the consciousness) stay dead and won't be transferred to the other body. in other word, it's not a continuous process.

even if the clones retains the memory of the original person, i don't think we should think of him as the same person as the original.
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speaking non-scifi, how do we even "copy" memories onto a clone? as far as my understanding goes about cloning, the cloned human's life and therefore experience and knowledge begins when it is conceived by the host (a woman). it may turn out to be a completely different "human" than the original as it grows and develops. aside from implementing a device which stores memory digitally and somehow finding a way to synchronize the device and the brain, transferring "memory" will not work.

cloning a human whose thinking and actions mirror the original is completely sci-fi. humans are as much affected by nature as well as nurture in their growth.
SUSb3ta
post Jul 1 2009, 03:35 AM

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one more thing. say memory and knowledge can somehow be transferred by some stroke of genius.

1. original human clones himself at age 50 and dies. the question is - when is a suitable time to transfer the original's memory to the clone? 10 years? 20 years? that is, of course if the human brain can even take that sort of amount of information,

if say memory were transferred to the clone at 20 years of age. wont the original "time travel" to 20 years in the future? and 20 years is a long time if u ask me...it would be pretty scary.


SUSb3ta
post Jul 2 2009, 02:14 AM

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QUOTE(Shadow Kun @ Jul 1 2009, 01:00 PM)
err i dunno. depends on what your intention for the transfer i think. anyways notice that in my first post that you quoted, i was speaking on "even if" basis as a reply to robertngo regarding his idea of achieving immortality by preserving memories in clones. all of that is still sci-fi in today's context. also i think he speak of cloning as reproducing the exact copy of the body at time of cloning, not creating a baby clone from the DNA that needs to be grown to adulthood so the issue of when to transfer the memory doesn't exist. you just transfer them instantly after death of the original. again, it's still sci-fi in today's context.
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very impossible. cloning an exact copy of a human just liek that is sci-fi by today's standards

 

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